The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Equipment => Topic started by: wannabesmallholder on January 29, 2017, 11:02:16 pm
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Long story, but I'm planning to buy some poultry electric fencing to keep sheep away from young fruit trees for a bit. Chickens are next on the livestock "shopping list", and plan to fence them in with electric fence, hence forward planning and getting the poultry electric fence now so as to kill two birds with one stone.
A few questions, if anyone can help?!
Im a bit confused about what battery to get. The electric fence kits seems to come with a 12v energiser. I think I need a 12v battery? But they all have different amp values - does this matter/make a difference? (Wish I'd paid more attention in physics leasons - no idea what the volts and amps are!!)
As with all things in life, there seem to be a variety of different prices you can pay for this fencing. As a general rule, is it a question of "you get what you pay for" and I should just buy the best I can afford, or unreality is there little difference between the "standard" poultry netting and the "super deluxe professional" version? I don't want to pay extra just for the sake of it, but would be annoyed if I end up with a fence with problems when a hundred quid or so more would have prevented them.
Do "hot gates" work and are they easy to use?
How difficult/time consuming is it to put up the fencing? Is it a two man job?
Are there any particular brands to go for?
Many thanks for your advice.
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Which breed of sheep do you have? Sheep have a horrible tendency to get caught, either by their horns or by their fleece, in electric mesh. They then twist and turn trying to get free, wrapping the mesh tightly around their heads and throat, and can kill themselves easily that way, or if they are caught in the mesh for a long time they will be harmed by the electric current. Both have happened to us in our early days of keeping sheep. We only use electric fencing now to make a temporary, non-electrified run-in funnel for a catching pen. I never leave sheep unattended with electric mesh.
There will be others who have never had a problem, but this is my experience.
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Oh gosh [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] I hadn't really thought of that. Thought that if they market electric sheep netting it would be ok for sheep! :-[ What about other types of electric fence - are they any good for sheep or are all types of electric fencing a no no? Hasty rethinking of fencing plans....
We are getting Ouessants (very small primitive breed) and will only keep the ewes, which are polled. They are supposed to not bother fences too much, but I don't know whether this is the case or not.
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Sorry, I don't know the answers. The only electricrified wire we use is a single strand in front of permanent mesh and stob sheep fencing, to stop tups smashing the fencing up to get to their rivals on the other side, during tupping time.
There are people on here such as [member=81]kanisha[/member] who keep ouessants and may be able to help.
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I have never used electrified netting for fencing. I do use in a section that doesn't belong to me electric tape ( four strand ) This works as long as the sheep are primed to an electric fence but you need to keep on top of regrowth of grass and watch that your pasture doesn't get sparse. Also the sheep are never in that section overnight and if I am away for any period of time (more than a few hours )
To be honest for the situation you describe a roll of standard wire mesh fencing would be fine for ewes (a height of 1 metre is generally adequate) . Tap in a few posts and fix fencing, would work out probably cheaper and less hassle than electric fencing.
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We were told that sheep need to be introduced to electric netting as lambs, otherwise they can charge through it and get tangled up as said.
You will probably find the biggest problem with netting is it sagging between supports and shorting to earth. You will need earth stakes and an earth circuit as well. We doubled up on our support posts but still had a problem.
Once the net is in position and they have learned it hurts it can be left off most of the time, but ours then got chewed to bits by rabbits!
You will need a 12V 'Leisure' battery, which is a battery designed to store a lot of energy but not deliver the huge car-starting current. These can be bought from caravan centres as well as electric fence suppliers. Our fence unit is a Rutland, which has performed well but was housed in a shed to keep it and the batteries dry. You will really need two batteries, the second to use when the first one needs charging. Our batteries are 120Ah, which on our energiser unit last about a month- they take 3 days to charge with our little charging unit though and are very heavy.
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A leisure battery as they are designed to run down without the trickle charge that cars give a battery.
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I keep polled sheep (Ryelands) and routinely use electric wire with them and have used electric netting too.
For your use, where a break in would be a nuisance rather than a catastrophe I'd opt for poly posts and 3 strands of electric wire along with an energiser and 12V battery, or if you have a sunny spot a solar powered energiser. You need to strim under the bottom wire occasionally as once the wet grass touches the wire the battery can go down very quickly. The reason I would do this rather than electric netting is it is cheap and versatile to move and you are bound to need it again at some stage.
I've never had problems with electric netting with my polled sheep but it is a pain to keep the grass from shorting it as more troublesome to strip up to it.
The energiser and battery can be used for the chicken netting in the future and is the most expensive part of the system. However, unless you are planning to move it around I would use chicken wire for a permanent structure rather than electric netting for chickens. You'll get lots of different opinions on this not least of all depending on if there are many foxes about.
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I have run stock fencing with a single strand, i try and reinforce the idea just after shearing, as their fleece is a good insulator, but occasionally I've left the fence unpowered, (battery down) thinking, like the goats they would continue to respect it. Nope. I've ended up with sheep tightly trussed up, luckily each time something has made me walk over to double check, and saved them.
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Many thanks all - food for thought, although I'm
more confused now than when I started!! Would be good to try to get this right from the start though, so really appreciate your comments.
The complication is that we intend to get chickens, if not this year then next, and planned to have them free ranging in the orchard (currently newly planted fruit trees). So the fruit trees would be fenced in with the poultry netting, keeping fox out of the chickens and sheep away from the young trees. With time, would plan to put up more permanent fencing in the rest of the paddock to allow rotational grazing for the sheep (the paddock is only an acre, including the orchard).
So I planned to use the poultry netting to divide the paddock initially and then turn it into a pen around the perimeter of the trees when we eventually get chickens. Trying to avoid the expense of two different types of electric fence as it's so expensive.
Actually, when I originally started on deciding fencing options, I had thought I'd prefer not to have poultry netting. So looked in to fencing the perimeter and adding fox-proof electric strands to the outside top and bottom of the perimeter fence to keep the fox out, but this seemed to be getting complicated and possibly not successful so I abandoned that idea. Do you think this is something I should revisit?
Where we live is pretty rural and I'm sure there must be foxes, although I've never seen one actually on our land. I'm sure they would come soon enough once the hens arrived.
The problem is, if Im thinking of more permananet fencing, a further, immediately pressing complication is that our man who is coming to fence the perimeter of the paddock is very booked up and won't be able to fence it all by the time the sheep arrive next month. Weve agreed that he will fence half of it in time, with the assumption that I would keep them off the unfenced bit with the poultry netting. :-\ So regardless of whether I go with more permanent fox-proof fence or not, I still need a temporary solution to keep the sheep in one half of the paddock. Am loathed to spend £300+ on something that won't be used long term!
Can you hire electric fencing?
Any other ideas welcome (if this long and complicated explanation has made any sense at all!!)
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Well mine have been on a paddock which has stock net on two sides and a three wire electric fence on the other two sides since September and had the same arrangement through last winter. Whatever fence arrangement you consider someone will have a horror story but if you drive around and see what people are actually using in your part of the country that tells you something. Also ask the person you are buying them from what they have used as that will tell you what they are used to.
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Thanks. They are not used to electric fence at all I don't think. This might be a silly question, but would a 3 line wire electric fence keep chickens in/foxes out?
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It might be a bit outside of your plans but have you thought about putting up some fencing yourself? If you've only got a 1 acre paddock and that includes your orchard then you may well want it subdivided to rotate grazing. You could knock a few posts in and run stock netting across the paddock to keep the sheep in the area your contractor can't do.
We use stockfencing to keep our chickens in. You could run some electric wire across if you want to keep foxes out. We haven't had any fox issues and the chickens stay locked up securely after night.
Dans
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No it won't, You'll need poultry electric netting or chicken wire for that. But if you have an acre do you need it at all for chickens? If you are getting dozens of chickens you might but if you are keeping say 20 chickens or less they won't wander off your acre if there is food and water and unless you have a bad fox problem they don't usually attack during the day, so the main thing is they have a good secure house at night. Ours have an automatic pop hole and rarely wander more than 100m from the hen house and are invariably in bed by nightfall. With free range chickens you may lose the odd one occasionally but the devastating attacks tend to be when foxes get into the enclosure and the chickens can't get out. Answer is don't have an enclosure.
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[member=30154]pharnorth[/member] that's a good point and one I'm coming round to. Think maybe I'm trying to protect against a predator that may or may not be a problem and perhaps I need to see what kind of a problem it is before putting in full defences? I guess this involves accepting we will lose some hens before we get it right? You are right - we will have less than a dozen hens and I'm sure they won't wonder too far. In fact, all the people who have free range hens around us have them wondering around with no protection, although when I say "round us", I don't know of any with a couple of miles, so can't say what our local fox will do. I do have memories as a child though of our little bantums being wiped out in broad daylight when free ranging only 5metres from the house, so I think if the fox is bold enough he will have the during the day easily.
This still won't solve short term problem of needing to fence off the bit without a perimeter fence though.... [member=25651]Dans[/member] - it's a good idea, but I have to say I'm a bit intimidated by putting a fence up myself - I wouldn't say I'm much good at DIY and with 2 small children am also short on time for projects..... maybe I need to bite the bullet and have a go, but can see it being rubbish!! ???
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Hi sorry - another question... would the very temporary horse electric fencing with plastic posts and white tape be ok for sheep if I strung it up with 3 lines? I might be able to borrow some of this as a temporary measure.
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where to start! As for Mr fox - well it depends on how upset yoou may be if your hens get snatched - since I've been here, I've had a vixen that lived under the caravan 10yds from the chicken coop and didn't touch them; then she dies and a while later I had a fox that would wait for the automatic pop-hole opener then grab the chickens; then one that would come in the middle of the day. In other words you may get away without protection for some time, but it's pot-luck as to when a Fox will grab your hens.
back on the subject of electric fencing:- as stated by others, you need to keep it electrified most of the time otherwise the rabbits chew it to pieces and if the sheep learn it's not zapping, they will tangle themselves in it. if your sheep are horned, then electric netting is not an option. Otherwise, I kept my sheep in an electric netting enclosure without incident for three years when I started (shetland sheep without horns). A certain amount of care is neeeded for setting up: run in straight lines and have something to tension the runs at the corners - tying to a branch with bailer twine works - as you need a bit of tension to stop it sagging onto the ground.
energiser: - for wooly sheep I think something of the order of 1.5joules is recommended and has the advantage of being powerful enough to zap the odd grass stem to death - although you will still need to do a bit of maintenance spring -summer when things grow fast. (ps don't try to use an austrian scythe to mow grass away from the fence unless your aim is a lot better than mine - they go through the wires like a hot knife through butter).
battery:- deep-cycle(true deep cycle are expensive and relatively hard to find) is best; leisure is more affordable but less long lasting; I'm actually using an old car battery which no longer has the oomph to crank any of my vehicles but still holds 12.7v at rest and was just sitting on the shelf. If you're on a budget, asking around for an old battery that still holds 12v+ or getting one from the scrappie might be ok. Whatever battery you use try and recharge it before it's terminal voltage falls by more than 0.5v from it's 'rest' voltage (the voltage reading you get a day or two after it has been fully charged) and it will last well; let it run down below 12.0v and it will age quicker; run it right down to 9v or less and you will kill it quickly.
in my experience 3 lines is OK as long as the sheep aren't really wanting to get to the other side - e.g. windfall crab apples on the other side, or just run out of food on their side (but then my shetlands would jump over the netting if they got too hungry. if they're reasonably well fed they don't try to escape to hard.
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Thank you thank you! I really do appreciate everyone's advice.
Would this work?
http://shop.electricfencing.co.uk/shop/42/53/63/1780/pig-kit-3-line---battery-operated-160m-max (http://shop.electricfencing.co.uk/shop/42/53/63/1780/pig-kit-3-line---battery-operated-160m-max)
It would seem most cost effective, I'm not paying to extra lengths I don't need and I could potentially reuse it for pigs in the future.....
[member=81]kanisha[/member] would ouessants get under a 3 wire system?
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This still won't solve short term problem of needing to fence off the bit without a perimeter fence though.... [member=25651]Dans[/member] - it's a good idea, but I have to say I'm a bit intimidated by putting a fence up myself - I wouldn't say I'm much good at DIY and with 2 small children am also short on time for projects..... maybe I need to bite the bullet and have a go, but can see it being rubbish!! ???
I totally get the nervousness. We were very nervous and our first fence posts were quite wonky but it did the job for keeping the sheep in. We've only got one little one, so a bit easier than two but at 18 months she learnt to hold the spirit level on the posts to check it was level! Might be worth a go. Thankfully my hubby is a lot more gung ho than me and convinces me to keep giving things a go ourselves.
Another alternative could be getting the sheep a little later once the fence is up?
Dans
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Thanks [member=25651]Dans[/member] - my husband is not gung ho nor practical!! :D Is there an idiots guide to fencing I could look at to find out the basics? i.e. How far apart to space posts, what to use to attach wire to posts, how to keep wire tight etc....? Maybe if I ask my fencer man these questions he will take pity on me and manage to squeeze the whole job in..... ::)
Two of the ewes we are getting are in lamb so I want to get them in asap so they are not stressed too close to lambing. I thought I had the fencing sorted so wasn't too worried about this deadline when we arranged this - best laid plans and all that!
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The pig kit looks fine for the job and as you say very reusable if you are going for pigs in the future. Spacing the posts becomes obvious when you try to do it, but as a guide I would go 3 to 5 paces between the posts. If you secure the end posts by tying them with baling twine to a fence or tree or whatever then you have something solid to provide tension to the wire. It doesn't need to be very tight for a temporary fence, just not droopy. It is important that you get the earth stake in well as they need to get a good zap when they touch the wire otherwise they may try to push through it.
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Thanks [member=25651]Dans[/member] - my husband is not gung ho nor practical!! :D Is there an idiots guide to fencing I could look at to find out the basics? i.e. How far apart to space posts, what to use to attach wire to posts, how to keep wire tight etc....? Maybe if I ask my fencer man these questions he will take pity on me and manage to squeeze the whole job in..... ::)
We had fences up with rotten posts around our 1 acre paddock. So we copied that, with 2.5m between posts, wire held on with fence staples from B&Q, put in with a post knocker and strained with one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-57547-Fence-Wire-Tensioning/dp/B0002GUM6Y/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1485811980&sr=8-5&keywords=fencing+tool (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-57547-Fence-Wire-Tensioning/dp/B0002GUM6Y/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1485811980&sr=8-5&keywords=fencing+tool)
Dans
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As others have said, I definitely wouldn't use electric poultry netting for sheep.
When we first moved here, we had a batch of hubbard chickens behind poultry netting (not electrified, thankfully) in our smallest field, and let the other fields to our neighbour for his sheep.
Unfortunately our fencing wasn't the best, and I twice had to cut sheep out of the mesh after they broke through the fence and then got tangled up in the netting. These were blackface sheep, and their horns did seem to be the main problem. However, the same thing could easily happen with a button eartag for instance. Also once caught, they tended to twist round and get more and more entangled.
In our case, the sheep were unharmed (I wish I could say the same for the netting). However, it could have been far worse.
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Wannabe I use four strand electric fencing in a paddock for rams. The top strand isn't electrified but is there to prevent dogs and people hopping over. the distance between the strands is quite small and I added an extra to reduce it as the sheep would push through otherwise if there was something tempting on the other side ( winter wheat or maize is usually next door with a winter cover crop also planted) .
The ewes being small will happily stick their heads through a larger gap and graze on the other side if they think there is something tastier there. I'll take a look at my fence today for estimates of distances between the strands.
I don't know what your soil type is but I do the majority of my fencing have graduated to using a level just so that it doesn't look so heath robinson. for ewes you could get away with out it being tensioned until your man can come. If the sheep have grazing they are not going to be looking to bulldozer their way into next door.
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I've only skimmed the thread but a couple of thoughts -
Won't chickens just hop out of the orchard over the fence? (I wouldn't see this as a problem, they will find themselves more food and help keep the pasture nice by scratching out dung and things)
This gap you need to fence quickly - short enough to do with hurdles? As you'll be needing some hurdles anyway I'd have thought. They're free standing if assembled in a zig zag and tied to supports at either end.
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If you are going to get hurdles make sure the sheep can't squeeze through the gaps Ouessants are quite small.
One point re electrified fencing ( of any sort) I don't use it until the lambs have gained a fair size, I'm not sure how much of a belt they could cope with off the electrics but would rather not risk killing them.
Adult ewe with two day old lamb.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/Photo948.jpg)
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I've only skimmed the thread but a couple of thoughts -
Won't chickens just hop out of the orchard over the fence? (I wouldn't see this as a problem, they will find themselves more food and help keep the pasture nice by scratching out dung and things)
This gap you need to fence quickly - short enough to do with hurdles? As you'll be needing some hurdles anyway I'd have thought. They're free standing if assembled in a zig zag and tied to supports at either end.
[member=3961]YorkshireLass[/member] it's 53m, so too big for hurdles I think?
I wouldn't mind the chickens getting out into the rest of the paddock if it weren't for the worry about the fox. I don't know if they hop over electric fencing - people seem to suggest it as a good way of keeping foxes out, though don't know how well it contains the hens!
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Not very well, in my experience!
We found with turkeys that once they got to a certain size, they hopped out whenever they liked.....
...... so we clipped their wings........ so they started roosting on top of their 7 ft high house, just to show us they still could!!