The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: devonlad on January 06, 2017, 08:04:56 pm
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hi all
time for some sound advice
our gorgeous fox red lab is nearing 8 months now and is generally the lovely boy we'd hoped for, As he's reaching sexual maturity possibly he's becoming a bit more bolshy, still very lovely natured and friendly but if anything hes almost too confident, He's started becoming a bit barky and wanting to lunge when on lead, towards people, dogs, anything really. he only ever wants to say hello, but has begun to bark with it too. a swift yank on his collar and "no! doesn't quite seem to work .
Most things weve read seem to suggest theres an element of nervousness or fear in it but he is not at all a nervous dog, far from it, anything we could try instead before it becomes a problem
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Unfortunately the swift yank often makes it worse - "oh wow Mum/Dad's in a panic too - there must be something scarey". I try to make sure lungy dogs learn to walk beside me not in front and if you can teach a behind command that would be good too (thought not easy!) You need to meet the scarey stuff first with him behind you so he feels more protected. Even if its not fear he needs to be calm because if its a reactive dog coming the other way it will escalate.
You can try turning and walking the other way, or passing in an arc to avoid head on meetings. Whatever you do don't let this become a completely ingrained behaviour - even if it means walking somewhere where you won't meet anyone. In fact a few weeks without meeting dogs/people wouldn't harm at all to try break the habit.
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Is he a working line lab?
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Try "look at me" which worked very well with my friend's lab x collie who behaved similarly. Just at the threshold when he is likely to react, get him to look at you (away from the other dog) and reward with a high value treat. As you keep doing this he will learn to look at you as soon as he sees another dog, and the threshold distance will get smaller and smaller. Eventually he should be able to go past other dogs completely fixed on you. You have to be consistent and do this EVERY time you see a dog when out, but being a Labrador and presumably therefore liking his food, he should get the idea quite quickly.
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What pipsqueak said.
Also, keep in mind the need to be proactive/fast/interesting - I see people fumbling in their pockets too long for the treat or waiting for their dog to start pulling before trying to get their attention. The other thing I see is telling the dog to sit, stay, and then punishing dog if it lunges at the thing of interest. :-(
Keep on a short lead and be ready with plan, treat - mix it up - a loud squeaky toy, ham/cheese, turn on the spot and run to heel before getting the treat, keep his attention on you - helps if it's not identical every time.
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thanks all as usual,
the treat angle sounds well worth a go- he is certainly a lab when it comes to food !! yes he is from a working line- we are planning to do more with the people we got him from as they not only breed gundogs but are very involved in training classes/ demonstrations etc. his out in the field training is coming on well, he is very biddable and clever. its just that every so often we need to leave the wide expanses of home and go to a place with people etc, and we really want to get on top of this early
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Lots of socialising and meeting people and dogs. Agree with not letting dogs walk in front of you as then they are leading you. Read recently not to let them go through a door or gate before you either and that made me think. Try not to walk straight at other people or dogs. If you can't get to classes do you have friends you can meet with dogs and use it to teach positive lessons.
"leave it " is always a good one to teach and use it when you approach other dogs and people.. If there is a group of you practise weaving in and out of a line of dogs. On the lead to start with then at heel.
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Can highly recommend Devon Dogs - mainly agility training but highly experienced in all dog problems - might be worth a consultation?
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Father trained and trialled labs. There is a tendency in the breed towards nervousness and that was my first thought when reading your post. My little fox red working lab went through a phase of barking and growling at people and sometimes other dogs. She did miss out on socialising as a young pup due to an accident I had which meant I was immobile for many months but to be honest it is in the breed as a whole and very common. I live near a man now who trains and works sniffer dogs. He uses working labs and finds exactly the same. No matter how much he gets them out and about the trait is there and is difficult to cure completely.
You say your dog is confident but is that just around his family. Our bitch is happy and confident at home but not around other people.
Is the barking and lunging forward aggression or could it be a nervous defensive reaction?
Does he ever show teeth at people and dogs or snap? Does he fight with other dogs?
Although highly motivated towards food it often doesn't help if a dog is really worked up either due to aggression or nervousness.
Training to a high level is usually easy with a working lab and will help in either scenario.
Our bitch is fine now in most situations. She comes on holiday with us and can walk happily through towns etc. In fact she is much better where there are lots of people. Almost as though there is too much stimulation for her to worry about and the people don't surprise or alarm her as they are everywhere.
How is his general obedience? Can he walk to heel on and off lead? If he knows these lessons. Then he shouldn't lunge. If he shows interest in other people or dogs, I'd give a heel command and turn him in the other direction, turning g into him, if you know what I mean. Your body is physically turning g him and your voice and body are gaining his attention. If food can gain his attention great but guessing it might not from what you say.
If it is more aggression than nervous behaviour then lots of training will help. He will have to know that you are boss and you are boss all the time. We had a flat coated retriever that was aggressive towards people and dogs, given half the chance. He was trained well and it never caused a real problem.
If people are coming towards you, let your dog know that you expect him to behave. Calm but firm voice giving his heel command and a warning no command if needed. You need to be ready and not let him even start the barking and certainly not the lunging. It is really about not letting him get into the position of pulling or lunging in the first place. This is assuming that he can heel really well in general when there are no people or dogs about.
Really good that you are in touch with his breeders. If they are experienced in the breed they should be able to observe and work out why he is behaving as he is and help you put things right.
He is only a baby so plenty of time to correct it but I would just be careful not to let him get away with it, whatever the reason.
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thanks all as usual,
the treat angle sounds well worth a go- he is certainly a lab when it comes to food !! yes he is from a working line- we are planning to do more with the people we got him from as they not only breed gundogs but are very involved in training classes/ demonstrations etc. his out in the field training is coming on well, he is very biddable and clever. its just that every so often we need to leave the wide expanses of home and go to a place with people etc, and we really want to get on top of this early
You should be doing this already - so get to it as soon as possible. at 8 months some labs are already competing in trials
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yes, we have been working under close guidance already, with a combination of advice from breeders and our "in the bag" bible. its just not been possible to actually work with them as yet but plans are afoot.
hes not in any way aggressive, has yet to growl, though im sure he'll learn soon enough. If anything he's just too full of himself, extremely confident and a bit pushy- we keep thinking he could do with putting in his place by another dog, just enough to give him a message, but not enough to scar him or spoil him
he knows a lot of dogs, and probably knows at least 10 very well indeed. we have neighbours with dogs and family too. With all of them, with the exception of our ancient spaniel (his favourite dog in the world) McCoy already seems to be the boss. only playful but clearly top dog,
overall hes a joy, everything we could have wished for, but we want to try to get on top of his lunging and barking asap.
my sister in law has a fabulous lab who is now 5 and is a gorgeous boy, apart from he does this too- so hopefully its not simply a trait
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I've heard that comment before about "he could do with another dog teaching him a lesson." Please don't think any further down this line it is not fair on the other dog, and its your job to protect your dog and train him. I can understand the thought process behind the comment but in reality it will cause many more problems.
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Well, he probably needs to know that actually you are the boss and he has no business bossing other dogs.
I think it is a good idea to use another dog to teach him a lesson but not in the way you were thinking.
How good is he at his general obedience training? Can he sit, stay, come and heel? Can he heel off lead?
I'd work with him on his own without other dogs around and when he could do his lessons really well and confidently, I would introduce another dog.
A calm and obedient one. I would then get McCoy to do his lessons in the presence of the other dog. Starting with the simplest commands and building up slowly, expecting him to completely ignore the other dog and focus on you.
Hopefully this training could then be used when he was out and about in other places.
Most working labs are ready by 8 months to start some serious obedience training. As Doganjo says some trainers would have done a lot of work with them by then. Other trainers don't like doing too much with very young dogs, the thought being that you should let them have their puppy days and that sometimes you can do too much and take away their drive. By 8 months most are ready and most come on really quickly once started.
So, yes, use another dog to teach your boy some good, positive lessons.
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general obedience is excellent- sit, stay down, come, excellent heel off the lead=
the real challenge is coping with distractions, human, equine, canine, anything really we've got dogs all over the place down our little lane so when he's "working" its just him and me /or OH and off somewhere quiet to get his undivided attention for now
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Part of the process of training is with distractions. Do you have a KC Good citizen class near you? I's very basic but the main thing is there are always distractions
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As Doganjo says then. Once he is 'excellent' at his lessons when on his own with just you, then add a distraction. To start with it could be as simple as your oh holding your old spaniel on lead in the same field as you train McCoy.
If the spaniel is obedient then go on to use him in the lesson. He heels, sits stays while young dog has to just sit and wait. Sit them side by side and give stay command. Recall them to you one at a time.Other must not move. Heel both off lead. Give sit command. Send individually to play using whatever is your command for that.
You could then ask a neighbour to do the same with their dog.
It's all about adding those distractions and expecting the same level of behaviour from your dog despite what is happening around him. Built up gradually and positively of course. He will learn to ignore the distraction and focus on you.
All helps with the control you need when you take him out into the bigger world. Use what's around you. If he is excellent on his own it's probably time to push him to the next level, with the distractions.Youll push his obedience to the next level and this will help with the other problems, whatever there cause is and make him into a dog that you can take anywhere.
Good luck.
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A chap I know who always has a superbly trained dog at heel walks down the high street of his nearest town several times a week with the pup tucked into his jacket as soon as its had its jabs.
I had a BC that was becoming a bit too assertive and made a point of always going through doors and gates first, which made a difference. It's all very well the dog trying to protect you by barking and lunging at possible threats but he should first look to you as the leader of his pack for guidance on how to respond to any perceived threat.
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I used to take mine to the local school, and sit outside at coming out time, so lots of people and cars about. I made him sit and stay quiet and gave him a treat when he did so, and stayed calm. After a few trips he was much better with more self control. You can do the same in supermarket car parks if he lunges at cars.
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A month on and things progressing better. lots of hard work, finding time we never really had but have to find, and deliberately taking him places where we know lots of strange dogs are likely to be. hes so good natured really and knows so many dogs around where we live and within the family that we poss took our eye off the ball
. the turning round and walking in the opposite direction until hes calmed down seems to work well-and have also enrolled in obedience/socialisation classes at local dog club starting in a couple of weeks time
im sure we'll get there and thanks as always for all the input and advice
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Brilliant news, well done - that's down to you and your hard work!
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That sounds great!
Are you on facebook? Look up "Naughty but nice" (no its not what you think!) - a group set up by Lauren Langman and Tom Mitchell with lots of free advice for this and other problems with dogs. Well worth a look.
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. its just that every so often we need to leave the wide expanses of home and go to a place with people etc, and we really want to get on top of this early
and you hit the nail on the head its when he's out of his comfort zone, I would get help working hi m in busy places slowly calmly building his confidence In the environments that trigger him. its stuf that needs real careful experienced handling hear to make him the dog who can go any where without you thinking what if.
I have a 22mth old wimeraner from a working family he's been brought up as a city dog central London rush hr tubes hospital appointments, demonstrations, museum trips restaurants he takes all in his stride as my assistance dog in traning. going for a pee in the dark without street lights.... he needs his mummy and a torch. cows are very big and he actively avoids them but sheep are fascinating by day and terrifying at night his brothers and sisters think he's nuts on field days there handers admire his drive and search skills but tut at his lack of self control. id like some ducks but he'd eat them
So don't feel bad you've raised a country pup how needs some help to cope with busier town / county fair environments I have a dog I cant trust around livestock yet that that's the point Yet you have plenty of time to mold him into the dog you would like him to grow into id leave his bits on at least for 6mths more.
good luck