The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: northfifeduckling on November 12, 2016, 02:48:39 pm
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should we be worried?
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My flock is registered and I haven't heard anything of note. I have the ability to house them all under cover if necessary.
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Not yet, though it seems to be coming closer.
Who here has been through a period of bird flu before and what did you do to protect your birds? What are we legally required to do?
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You're supposed to register if you have 50+ birds.
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You're supposed to register if you have 50+ birds.
[/size]will you be so kind to keep the smaller holders up to date? I'd much appreciate it :bouquet:
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Registering a flock of over 50 has to be done anyway regardless of an outbreak.
The defra website is not much use for keepers of small flocks with regards to protecting your birds against bird flu. I can keep my runs covered, I don't take birds to shows, we disinfect between field and home anyway... Anything else I should know?
I can keep mine from contact with the wild birds for a while, but not everyone can. Fingers crossed we don't get an outbreak :fc:
Just read on a US website that the virus remains live in manure for 100 days. Useful to know.
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Is there a big outbreak in the UK atm then? Just one question when the chickens are vaccinated from birth is it for bird flu as well?
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I don't believe they're vaccinated for bird flu, WBF.
I've heard nothing of an outbreak. :thinking:
Can someone fill us in please.
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30.000 birds culled in Germany. Denmark and the Netherlands as the routes to the UK have been crossed. That's all I know! Apparently so far not a strain dangerous to people.
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Oh, thank you northfifeduckling.
Think that I would struggle to keep all of mine in confinement unless absolutely necessary. Bit of a worry.
Let's hope it doesn't make it here :fc:
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There are several cases across Germany, none of the viruses are harmful to humans (H5N2 and H5N8). From what I read these are all wild birds that have been found dead and been examined for cause. Holland's poultry farmers have been told to keep their birds under cover as a precaution, but at the moment this doesn't apply to non-commercial keepers.
Avian Flu often arises during the migration period as a result of infected poo dropped from the sky into the poultry enclosures. So I suppose that's why birds need to be under cover.
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Just one question when the chickens are vaccinated from birth is it for bird flu as well?
Bird flu is like human flu in that the prevalent strain(s) will vary from year to year. Not necessarily fatal but I guess if you had a flock of thousands the resulting check to growth or egg laying if it was running through the birds would make it commercially desirable to cull.
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There are several cases across Germany, none of the viruses are harmful to humans (H5N2 and H5N8). From what I read these are all wild birds that have been found dead and been examined for cause. Holland's poultry farmers have been told to keep their birds under cover as a precaution, but at the moment this doesn't apply to non-commercial keepers.
Avian Flu often arises during the migration period as a result of infected poo dropped from the sky into the poultry enclosures. So I suppose that's why birds need to be under cover.
they are still checking if it's a mutation that can affect humans. Some commercial farms have been badly affected in Germany, how on earth did it get in there from wild birds I wonder?
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You've only got to have some infected bird pooh on your land and that's it. Gets carried in on boots, cars, coats...
It's in quite a few countries atm, Hungary, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Denmark... The Netherlands have found some wild birds that died of it this week and Belgium has ordered all commercial flocks to be kept inside. [size=78%] [/size]
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Switzerland goes down to 'lockdown' tomorrow ie all domestic birds housed away from wild birds or culled.
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It's apparently being brought in by birds migrating south for winter.
We might just be lucky :fc:
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The Redwings have been flying through this area for the past four weeks - numbers have tailed off significantly in the last ten days.
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Redwings seem to have just appeared here in MId Wales.
Perhaps they are yours Marches Farmer. ;D
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If they are they'll be the very plump ones - they descended on our hawthorn trees and stripped them bare in hours!
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Holland went into domestic flock lockdown yesterday. No visitors and birds must remain in covered enclosures.
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Just read terrible news: 190,000 meat ducks are being culled in The Netherlands, 180,000 on one farm and 10,000 on a neighbouring farm. :'( :'( :'(
It's in the province Flevoland which is in the middle of The Netherlands and surrounded by water, the whole province is like one huge farm.
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I can't even imagine that many ducks in one place, let alone having to cull them all in one go.
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Defra website says were under lock down for 30days now all birds to stay in side or at least away from wild birds now.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-protect-poultry-against-avian-flu (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-protect-poultry-against-avian-flu)
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Does that include all the unregistered "flocks" of 3/4 birds etc?
How are the owners of these pet birds likely to know about it? ???
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I would think this mostly applies to Defra registered flocks - i.e. those over 50 birds. Though it's probably wise for us smaller flock owners to up our hygiene and be on the look out for possible infections. I can't possibly keep my main flock locked away in their henhouse for a month, but I will move all their feeders/drinkers inside to minimize contact with wild birds.
Hope this problem passes soon.
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We only have 11 but would hate to lose any of our girls. We are trying to work out how to keep them indoors - a project for tomorrow morning. :chook: :chook: :chook:
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I'm going to assume it applies to everyone - it just takes one case for it to spread.
I have just taken on 8 ex batts, they have been in a separate shed since I got them on Sunday, so they won't know anything different - a little more room to move than in their cages perhaps. I had intended moving them beside the other six tomorrow but they'll stay put till the order is lifted.
My four Shetland ducks and the six hens have inside runs in a brick garage so they'll stay put and I have a plastic paddling pool they can have for dunking.
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00511175.pdf (http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00511175.pdf)
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Everyone no matter how few hens is required to take all possible steps to keep them seperate from wild birds and ideally shut in. It is in the news.
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Does that include all the unregistered "flocks" of 3/4 birds etc?
How are the owners of these pet birds likely to know about it? ???
We as responsible owners have to tell as many as possible. I've posted it on my facebook page and one friend has just said it doesn't affect hers as they aren't near other poultry - I've just informed her that it does as it's carried by wild birds and that it's a government order.
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We only have 11 but would hate to lose any of our girls. We are trying to work out how to keep them indoors - a project for tomorrow morning. :chook: :chook: :chook:
Can you keep them under cover? Much of our runs is covered, so few bird droppings can fall through, which is a start.
My hens would love to be literally indoors, one of them was our original pet hen whose favourite place for a nap is on the back of the sofa!
I've been telling everyone chicken friend I know about the lockdown, I would hate to be partly responsible for an outbreak by not taking sensible precautions. :-[
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My hens are not a problem, but I have ducks and geese who are semi-feral/ornamental and live on a pond with no housing. No idea what I can do about them.
What will they do about all the birds on the ponds in places like Hyde Park? Cull?
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They are the wild birds that are most at risk. They will be monitored I imagine
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Yeah, this is a project for me tomorrow too. I have two runs that I can cover over to prevent any wild bird contamination. My main flock is allowed out into a yard during the day, but they're normally in their shed until I get back from work at 1/2ish...since it gets dark so early now, it won't do them much harm to stay inside the whole time I guess.
Not ideal....but more ideal than catching avian flu!
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Well that's my chicken acquisition put on hold for 30 days - strikes me as another govt "be seen to be doing something" move from the geniuses that brought us the F&M outbreak, Given that bird flu is predominantly carried by migrating waterfowl if you aren't near an area where these birds congregate your chickens aren't likely to get infected.
If you are there could still be virus particles hanging around after 30 days in accumulations of bird faeces etc.
Looking on the bright side they haven't overreacted and ordered a mas slaughter - yet
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My waterfowl share their pond with mallards and the occassional wild goose as well as grazing in a field that has pheasants, grouse, various birds of prey and corvids as well as the usual song birds. What is the point of shutting them in? They aren't going anywhere at all, unlike the other birds there, so if they got AF they'd be the least risk to the spread.
I suspect my only option will be to cull. :(
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Gah. I'm trying to work out how I mange this.
I've got 4 geese that I old put into our shade tunnel (polytunnel with netting over it). But what do I feed them at this time of year? They've been just on grass with a bit of corn.
My chickens, I can put the water inside thier house (converted shed, the food is already in) and cover the entrance to prevent wild birds getting in but they would still be free ranging. I have no pen at all and I think they would kill each other kept in the shed for 30 days.
Is keeping the food and water clear of wild birds sufficient?
Dans
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Reading the article from defra it says we should have foot disinfectant at the entrance to the shed - is Vircon ok for this?
Waiting,impatiently, for the vet to open. One of my chooks has been in isolation for a week as she has been on antibiotics for a cold - sneezing, swollen eyes etc.
Have been awake all night working out in my head how we can make part of the polytunnel wild bird proof so the girls can go in there.
It will be a busy morning.
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I'm thinking of putting the chickens in the polytunnel. We have some netting that can go across the doors but need to construct some perches and not sure how to cover the floor from the mess.
Virkon should be ok as a disinfectant.
Dans
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Glad I'm in Wales (though I wonder how long before we get order too. ) No idea what I would do with my few hens and ducks .... completely free range during day and no bird proof shed large enough to shut them in.
One comment on Facebook .... wonder if supermarkets will still be selling Free range eggs??
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Another comment prompted by Facebook ..... cant see our local pheasant shoot shutting up shop!
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The Defra edict refers to. "the whole of England". Do people in Wales feel they should be complying too?
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Reading the article from defra it says we should have foot disinfectant at the entrance to the shed - is Vircon ok for this?
Does the article explain how you get the wild birds to walk through it??
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Posh Brown,our chicken who has been sick and in isolation for a week, is off to the vets this afternoon for swabs to be taken - please keep your fingers crossed that it is mycoplasma and not a strain of avian flu. Our lovely vet says he thinks that is what is it but he is duty bound to do the tests. Fingers crossed for my girls please. :fc:
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I'm thinking of putting the chickens in the polytunnel. We have some netting that can go across the doors but need to construct some perches and not sure how to cover the floor from the mess.
Virkon should be ok as a disinfectant.
Dans
If you mean droppings - dig them in, perfect fertiliser :chook:
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I read on another forum that it includes Wales and NI.
50 pheasants in my smallish lawned area nearest to the house this morning. So Backinwellies our local shoot isn't keeping them in yet!
Ridiculous numbers of pheasants here. Any chance of biosecurity measures working here are a joke!
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Scotland has issues the same poultry lockdown as England, I can't see Wales not following suit.
My hens and ducks are locked into their pens, I've put food and water in the sheds in the hope it will keep wild birds away. Need to figure a way of covering the pens.
Does any one know if this is likely to after availability of fresh poultry/birds for Christmas? * praying I won't be in the frozen aisle!*
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If you mean droppings - dig them in, perfect fertiliser :chook:
I'd love to do that, but our polytunnel is carpeted! :roflanim:
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Posh Brown,our chicken who has been sick and in isolation for a week, is off to the vets this afternoon for swabs to be taken - please keep your fingers crossed that it is mycoplasma and not a strain of avian flu. Our lovely vet says he thinks that is what is it but he is duty bound to do the tests. Fingers crossed for my girls please. :fc:
If she's not posh she will certainly be expensive! Hope you get her sorted :fc:
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Does any one know if this is likely to after availability of fresh poultry/birds for Christmas? * praying I won't be in the frozen aisle!*
Without a doubt! Could be good for other meat sales too!
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I've just put my new APHA Keep Out sign on the gate - don't want feed delivery lorries or LPG tankers that might have been on poultry farms before delivering to us.
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Just in case people aren't sure - it is in place in Wales too as of yesterday... (thank you TAS - we don't/can't watch TV so only read about it here so have just checked to make sure!) Bit of a nightmare when you are moving, how to manage that?!
http://gov.wales/topics/environmentcountryside/ahw/disease/avianflu/?lang=en (http://gov.wales/topics/environmentcountryside/ahw/disease/avianflu/?lang=en)
Bit of useful info from the Welsh gov. site:
Do I need to house my birds now?
No. We are not requiring that flocks are housed at a national level. We do, however, advise that birds are kept away from wild birds wherever possible by feeding and watering birds under cover. Bird feed and any standing water should be kept free from contamination by wild birds and other animals. Poultry owners should make sure that hands, clothes and footwear are clean before and after contact with birds. Owners need to be vigilant and monitor their birds frequently.
What should I look out for?
Typically the signs of disease show suddenly with affected birds showing:
- swelling of the head
a blue discolouration of the neck and throat area
dullness
a loss of appetite
respiratory distress
diarrhoea
a drop in egg production.
Some birds, especially waterfowl, can be infected with Low Pathogenic Avian Influenza (LPAI) without showing any signs of disease. However, there can be considerable variation in the clinical signs and severity of the disease.
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Thank you Some-where-by-the-river.
Wales as well, then.
Did you copy the 'Do I need to house my birds now?' question from the 'Frequently Asked Questions' section?
This seems to have been last updated in August 2015 and the information doesn't really fit in with the guidelines on the main page which is dated yesterday ???
Have they not updated that. ::) Doesn't seem to make sense otherwise.
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Are you moving Some-where-by-the-river?
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...Yes in the hills, but our internet is so bad that when I realised I couldn't get it to 'play' well enough to edit! (Behaving for 5 seconds now so taking advantage.) However, figured some of it was useful still...
Sadly yes, Linda, landlord is selling, which was a major shock at the time, very out of the blue. Won't be too far away though - will pm you...
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I am almost prepared with regards to chickens :thumbsup:
What are folks doing with regards to geese as ideally they need to graze on grass, any suggestions appreciated
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We're going to put ours plus coop in the fruit cage - at least there's not too much they can damage at this time of year. But ... small birds get in anyway, we've never worked out how. And there's the pheasant problem as already mentioned ... we live in the middle of a shoot and seem to be the refuge of choice for all the savvy ones. I've contacted the CA (if anyone was wondering) and apparently pheasants are classed as wild once released, so won't be subject to any restrictions. So they will be thumbing their beaks at my caged-up birds. Not sure when we can do the fruit cage transfer though - what with having to work in daylight hours n'all.
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Mine will have to go into the polytunnel, with mesh over the louvres. Just as well it's winter so not too hot. The geese will feast on the brassicas, and the hens will just scratch up everything else, so bye-bye our winter veg :( and Christmas brussels.
What happens at the end of 4 weeks? These restrictions could go on for ages if the flu makes it over the North Sea.
It's not been said, but poultry breeders should get vaccinated against human flu. They should anyway, but with avian and human flu on the go at the same time, the opportunity for a hybrid strain is increased.
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Thought I'd posted once, must have lost it.
Geese don't have to be housed, but feed and water in a covered area where wild birds can be deterred, so if fed inside at nights should be OK.
Its where wId birds collect and leave mess seems to be the worry.
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Geese don't have to be housed, but feed and water in a covered area where wild birds can be deterred, so if fed inside at nights should be OK.
Do you have a citation for this? Trying to work out where to put the various flocks here ATM.
Thanks
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I don't know what to do.
We have 11 birds but the house is only for roosting. It's a great house but no way big enough to keep them in all day.
The run it too big to cover so apart from making up the spare room for them I'm at a loss. :-(
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Geese don't have to be housed, but feed and water in a covered area where wild birds can be deterred, so if fed inside at nights should be OK.
Do you have a citation for this? Trying to work out where to put the various flocks here ATM.
Thanks
Pages 3 and 9...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575619/captive-birds-biosecurity-inside-prevention-zone.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575619/captive-birds-biosecurity-inside-prevention-zone.pdf)
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I don't know what to do.
We have 11 birds but the house is only for roosting. It's a great house but no way big enough to keep them in all day.
The run it too big to cover so apart from making up the spare room for them I'm at a loss. :-(
Can you wrap the run in debris netting? It's great stuff and goes a long way!
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Thanks Hevxxx, couldn't copy the link on my tablet, was trying to remember the headings from Sarah deans post.
When in the PDF use the search facility for 'GEESE'. Saves a lot of reading.
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I don't know what to do.
We have 11 birds but the house is only for roosting. It's a great house but no way big enough to keep them in all day.
The run it too big to cover so apart from making up the spare room for them I'm at a loss. :-(
Can you partition the run and cover part of it ?
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Perhaps you could be creative with pallets, strawberry netting, fireguards, puppy cage panels, old bits of tin and a selection of any of the other things that may be hanging around your place ....?
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I've just put my new APHA Keep Out sign on the gate - don't want feed delivery lorries or LPG tankers that might have been on poultry farms before delivering to us.
Are these available from somewhere? ideally we need three 'strictly no entry - avian flu exclusion zone' signs for the gates. Fortunately because of the layout of our holding, people coming to the house are totally separate from the farm entrances.
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Good news in Suffolk - Posh Chicken doesn't have avian flu - but is still on anti-b's for mycoplasma. The rest of the girls are in one of the field shelters with close holed mesh above the doors. They look very cosey and are happy scratching away in the straw. Just keeping an eye on them to ensure they don't scrap as it's a smaller space than they are used to.
Fingers crossed all our chickens stay healthy.
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So the 4 chickens are easy as they have a run, just keep the door shut and try not to watch them looking miserably through the mesh. The Indian Runners I was going to create a run out of bird netting and hurdles as they need some head room. Trouble is someone hasn't seen the news as they let them out today so no way of catching them and making them secure until this evening........
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So the chickens (11 of them) are in emergency option one (the fruit cage) with rather flimsy net. They look furious (normally have two acres of orchard). Husband has stomped off to work mourning potential loss of all his fruit trees. Option two is the field shelter with top of door blocked. It will be safer, but dark, and has known rat activity. What are your thoughts (what's best for the chickens rather than us)?
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The field shelter with top of door that can be blocked - can't you 'block' it with some mesh stapled into the frame to let light and fresh air in?
Unless the fruit trees are really petite they'll be alright, protect their roots if necessary.
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I've just put my new APHA Keep Out sign on the gate - don't want feed delivery lorries or LPG tankers that might have been on poultry farms before delivering to us.
Are these available from somewhere? ideally we need three 'strictly no entry - avian flu exclusion zone' signs for the gates. Fortunately because of the layout of our holding, people coming to the house are totally separate from the farm entrances.
APHA sent me four, along with boot dip signs. They were mentioned in Farmers Guardian earlier this year and I think I applied through the APHA website.
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I cant get my head around this - as usual the advice is so flakey while some people are on complete shut down in shear panic others are just popping a net over. I cant see unless everyone is at the same level the point of this. The only winners in this is the huge poultry shed with complete bio security.
Like most I have my hens in surrounded by Heras fencing. birds can get in at all levels. Small birds can poo around and on a farm impossible to prevent bird ingress. My feeds are in a safe shipping container however wild birds fly in the minute I open the containers. People come and go constantly and lorries and vans in daily.
We can only do our best but nothing is 100%
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One comment on Facebook .... wonder if supermarkets will still be selling Free range eggs??
Apparently whilst the order is on toy can still sell the eggs as free range even of the birds are cooped up. That covers for 12 weeks but all hoping this only lasts the four.
My geese are in and unhappy about it. I can't keep wild birds out of thier food and water inside.
I've ordered panels to make a chicken run to attach to the house that should be here by the weekend. I've moved food and water inside and cleared up any standing water and windfall fruit which is the best I can do for now.
To amend matters worse we've just reintroduced a ex broody and her daughter to the flock and things are I turmoil with the pecking order changing. Not sure how well it will go pulling them all into a smaller area but needs must.
Dans
Dabs
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So the chickens (11 of them) are in emergency option one (the fruit cage) with rather flimsy net. They look furious (normally have two acres of orchard). Husband has stomped off to work mourning potential loss of all his fruit trees. Option two is the field shelter with top of door blocked. It will be safer, but dark, and has known rat activity. What are your thoughts (what's best for the chickens rather than us)?
Our hens have always had free access to our fruit cage, which has black and red currants, gooseberries, apple and pear trees and raspberries. Not only have they done no damage to the shrubs, canes and trees, but they scratch around and clear pests from under the bushes. Once the fruit is ripe though, it's a different matter, and we have to race them and the wild birds to pick them (no way to keep wild birds out of the fruit cage - it's more for protection against the wind). I think your hens will be happy as anything, scratching away on the forest floor :chook:
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The Defra advice by necessity has to cover everyone from major commercial units to those of us with half a dozen, so [member=2602]farmers wife[/member] it is always going to be a bit tricky to apply in the same way across the board and when you say everyone to the same level I don't think that is really the point since we don't all start from the same place. It is about everyone reducing the risk as much as they reasonably can, which to be fair is what the Defra edict says. With a few chickens and ducks it is inconvenient but not difficult to grab a few hurdles and bird netting and make a run. For a commercial,unit I suspect they have to be ready anyway for this eventuality it is the people with a hundred or so that maybe struggling most?
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I think the initial problem for the UK is droppings from wild birds migrating from Europe. I saw a flock of maybe 400 Redwings overhead yesterday, for instance. Once it's into commercial flocks, in particular, then people, boots, tyres and so on come into play. We're not a big commercial operation but our rare breeds are both very rare and have been selectively bred by us for years so their value in that respect means they're virtually irreplaceable.
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1x extra large tarp, seven foot wired run, muddy pond bank, windy day and 5'2 me - a sight to behold! :roflanim: However, 15 (rather unhappy) ducks secured and bird proofed. Just need to add extra sand pit pond and good to go. :relief: Luckily hen runs already covered and ultra small mesh so no work needed there. All birds very disgruntled about confinement but for their own good. :chook: :&> >:(!
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it is the people with a hundred or so that maybe struggling most?
Yep, we have about 100 birds in three flocks with big runs. We've secured the feed and water (the feed was always secure) and put out troughs for feeding afternoon corn, so it's not on the ground and the troughs can be overturned once the hens have cleaned up.
We have accommodation for one flock and we're going to cull the oldest flock, whic just leaves us with thirty birds that are a tad problematic.
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One comment on Facebook .... wonder if supermarkets will still be selling Free range eggs??
My geese are in and unhappy about it. I can't keep wild birds out of thier food and water inside.
I've ordered panels to make a chicken run to attach to the house that should be here by the weekend. I've moved food and water inside and cleared up any standing water and windfall fruit which is the best I can do for now.
Dans
Dabs
Dan's, geese are exempt from the under cover rules, welfare i think, feed inside at night and it should be OK, it's mainly a case of discouraging wild birds from congregating and messing round feeders.
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I don't have geese but my ducks and chickens are a problem as the both free range and their houses aren't big enough to keep them in.
Instead I have been following (or trying to follow) the rules for food and water. The chickens have a grandpas feeder so the food is not available for wild birds. I have stopped using all the buckets around the place for their drinking water and have reverted to just 1 inside the stable.
The ducks also have lots of drinking buckets and get fed outside in the morning and inside their house in the evening (not a problem). I have taken to standing over them while they have their morning feed and drink so that no wild birds can get a look in and when they have finished as much as they want I remove it all. They have a pond, which I can't do anything about but they can drink there if they want.
I am also in the process of putting up a scarecrow which I hope will help a bit
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I've been thinking about the scarecrows too as have the same problem as you. All our birds have houses for night time but free range across our yard and fields in the day, we've never had them in pens or cages etc, they're completely free range. Water is a tricky one as our birds all use the lake (which I can't stop wild birds from using) I don't think this is going to be enough precaution. I wish that I could keep them out and be vigilant, I just don't see it being enough to 'get away with it' or keep other local poultry owners happy.
I have outbuildings that will have to do as make-shift homes for chickens, ducks and geese for the next month. It's cr[member=36627]P[/member] for us as I don't want to see my birds like this, it's worse for them having to live in old potting sheds and stables. All we can hope is that this quarantine gets lifted sooner than the expected date of early Jan.
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the hens are now in the greenhouse and they are not happy! Has anyone ever have had a chicken break glass? Mine might be the first! I can't cover the GH with tarp yet for the night as we are still working on the duck bit....Tarp seems to be in short supply, waiting for the delivery since things were announced....I am also worried once we get freezing conditions again. I do not have a greenhouse heater, does something exist that they could not topple over and create a fire or something? No electricity anywhere near the plot either....
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Why do you need a heater when your hens are in the greenhouse, are they moulting a lot at the moment?
Is your greenhouse fox proof?
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Why do you need a heater when your hens are in the greenhouse, are they moulting a lot at the moment?
Is your greenhouse fox proof?
It is several degrees warmer in the hen house protected near the house than in the greenhouse in the garden. No, I've not dug chicken wire 2 feet under the greenhouse if that's what you mean. We're still working on the run so maybe they can go back to the old house asap, in the meantime I hope no fox will dig in overnight.
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I hope no fox will dig in overnight.
Ooooohhhh dear, one probably will! I really wouldn't tempt fate like that! :o Chicken wire is nothing to foxes anyway. But being a few degrees colder won't harm your hens, I wouldn't worry about a heater, they should be ok.
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This a map of where bird flu has been reported someone emailed me today:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
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Can someone make this link work? It's a map of where bird flu has been reported, someone emailed it to me but it doesn't work when I post it here:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
copy and paste into browser did it.
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Can someone make this link work? It's a map of where bird flu has been reported, someone emailed it to me but it doesn't work when I post it here:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
copy and paste into browser did it.
Thanks - turned out to work if I didn't try to turn it into a link :D
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I hope no fox will dig in overnight.
Ooooohhhh dear, one probably will! I really wouldn't tempt fate like that! :o Chicken wire is nothing to foxes anyway. But being a few degrees colder won't harm your hens, I wouldn't worry about a heater, they should be ok.
Thanks, Eve, that is now making me feel really great. I'm trying to protect them, you see. Not my choice to put free ranging birds under cover anywhere possible...I've so far not even lost free breeding ducks to foxes. Fingers crossed.
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I don't have geese but my ducks and chickens are a problem as the both free range and their houses aren't big enough to keep them
The ducks also have lots of drinking buckets and get fed outside in the morning and inside their house in the evening (not a problem). I have taken to standing over them while they have their morning feed and drink so that no wild birds can get a look in and when they have finished as much as they want I remove it all. They have a pond, which I can't do anything about but they can drink there if they w
What do you feed Bionic ?
I used to feed whole wheat, put in water it gives them something to dabble for and hides the feed from sharper beaks. (Used at a wildfowl area as vermin deterrent)
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Northfifeduckling, I hope your luck lasts! :fc: We're inundated with foxes here, you're so lucky :)
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Northfifeduckling, I hope your luck lasts! :fc: We're inundated with foxes here, you're so lucky :)
Thanks, I am quite worried now. I've seen one in the garden once years ago and we can hear them in spring up on the hill. How would you secure a greenhouse, preferably by magic? He can't open the door unless he's got human brains.
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I don't have geese but my ducks and chickens are a problem as the both free range and their houses aren't big enough to keep them
The ducks also have lots of drinking buckets and get fed outside in the morning and inside their house in the evening (not a problem). I have taken to standing over them while they have their morning feed and drink so that no wild birds can get a look in and when they have finished as much as they want I remove it all. They have a pond, which I can't do anything about but they can drink there if they w
What do you feed Bionic ?
I used to feed whole wheat, put in water it gives them something to dabble for and hides the feed from sharper beaks. (Used at a wildfowl area as vermin deterrent)
I feed a mix of layers pellets and mixed corn. I might try the mixed corn in water.
thanks
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Northfifeduckling, I hope your luck lasts! :fc: We're inundated with foxes here, you're so lucky :)
Thanks, I am quite worried now. I've seen one in the garden once years ago and we can hear them in spring up on the hill. How would you secure a greenhouse, preferably by magic? He can't open the door unless he's got human brains.
He'll dig under in no time, just put heavy timber or slabs / bricks all around the edge, you need a 'skirt' of only about 20cm flat onto the ground - all the omlet eglu runs have those, we use lots of them and the foxes have tried everything but never ever got in, despite their cleverness they don't think of starting to dig a foot or more further away from the edge of the run the way rats would do. And padlock the door if possible or put a broom stick at the bottom so it can't be slid open (like people do at sliding patio doors).
The few times a bird slept in the run on a perch rather than in the coop we woke up from a fox standing on top of the run or running all around it digging and trying to get in. Being able to see the birds makes them even more determined (the bird heard it and panicked, which woke us up as that run was right outside our window).
Sorry, I didn't mean to make you so worried!
I'm of the paranoid kind which is a good thing around here with foxes day and night, just for tonight I'd pick them up out of the greenhouse and put them in their normal secure house to sleep. It'd be awful if you were to lose your birds now to a fox!
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My birds are inside my barn. they are kept in one of the stables so shut in. I had to do this after the badgers dug under my outside chicken run and killed my birds. I have given them some hay and greens to keep them amused. As they are used to being outside i know they are far from happy.
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Hadn't thought about foxes . . . my lot are in the field shelter with meshing and stable doors. In their usual run we have electric tape all the way round to deter the foxes, but can't do that for the sheep shelter as the sheep can touch it on three sides.
Now I will be awake all night worrying about the foxes. aaaaaagh!
Think I will go out and put paving slabs all the way round and maybe electric tape at top of door level to deter the foxes - am very tempted to put the in my holiday cottage :roflanim:
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Think I will go out and put paving slabs all the way round and maybe electric tape at top of door level to deter the foxes - am very tempted to put the in my holiday cottage :roflanim:
Why not, I've had birds in the kitchen when a housing problem presented itself. Desperate times etc :D
I saw a picture online once of chickens sleeping in a bath ;D
If you only have a few maybe a downstairs toilet would suffice, just keep the lid down ;)
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What we have experienced with poultry in a greenhouse was rats - ginormous ones - digging in from underneath, then pulling chicks down into their runs. We ended up putting fine mesh over the whole floor, well held down, but of course the hens then couldn't scratch. Fine for ducks though. And all might be ok if no chicks and no bantams.
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I must admit that the requirement to keep hens under cover presented us with a real puzzle. We now only have two and they are used to free ranging through the orchard during the day so confining them to their fairly small henhouse with limited space to move around doesn't appeal.
Not having any other under cover areas/buildings available and, as usual no spare cash, it needed a bit of creative thinking and in the end we decided to utilise our currently unused 2m x 3m polytunnel putting it up tight against the hen house so that there was access into the house, and using a mesh panel barrier at the other end with the flap rolled down to it. The whole lot is held together with a variety of tent pegs, string, an odd bit of chain, and a few reusable cable ties from the 'cuminandy' box. Surprisingly the girls took to it straight away after we added the drinker, feeder, and a dust bath. Provided we don't get any high winds (we do up here!) it might last a few weeks or just long enough to do the job - we'll see.
For what it's worth this is what it looks like:
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Looks really good, actually! :thumbsup:
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Yup! That's we've done as well. Except that I cannot upload the photos (No IT skills whatsoever).
I had not got round to clearing the polytunnel so there are masses of fairly dead tomato and cucumber plants lying around, which the hens are loving. Maybe they will clear them all. Every cloud has a silver lining!
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Dan's, geese are exempt from the under cover rules, welfare i think, feed inside at night and it should be OK, it's mainly a case of discouraging wild birds from congregating and messing round feeders.
no they aren't-its accepted that if you have many and they are not housed at all, it might be possible to apply for an exemption but otherwise they need to be undercover.
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In the PDF doc linked earlier in the thread it says certain species if not practical to keep inside then at least feed away from wild birds, it would be cruel to keep mine in their small night quarters, for 30 days. They will be allowed out but fed inside when shut in for the night.
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It's particularly daft in the case of geese as they graze. Not sure how you're supposed to stop wild birds pooping on the grass! ???
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Dan's, geese are exempt from the under cover rules, welfare i think, feed inside at night and it should be OK, it's mainly a case of discouraging wild birds from congregating and messing round feeders.
Unfortunately not.
The pdf on this page outlines what to do with geese: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu#biosecurity (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu#biosecurity)
I'll paste the relevant bits for those who may have trouble with the pdf:
There are certain species of bird – such as ostrich, captive wildfowl or geese, which are
not normally housed – for which the housing steps outlined above may not be practicable.
In such cases you should isolate their food and water from wild birds. Available feed and
water will attract wild birds; by feeding and watering your birds under cover, the possibility
of mingling is reduced. The steps you should take, where practical, include:
• Providing extra protection to feed and water stations to avoid attracting wild birds.
• Rotating feeding times. Many wild birds learn when captive birds are fed and
congregate at these times.
• Preventing your birds from accessing open water that may be contaminated. Ensure
that your birds receive only mains or treated water, or ensure that reservoirs or storage
tanks are covered. Sealed nipple systems can be considered.
Additional deterrents
When designing any protective structure, if you need to use posts, you should think about
incorporating spike strips to deter perching. In all cases you should also consider making
use of wild bird deterrents such as flutter tape, flashing lights and scarecrows. However, in
doing so, you should be careful to avoid any potential impacts on those of your birds who
are not screened from such deterrents; particularly flashing lights
Geese
Where small numbers of geese are kept, it may be possible to house them. However, if
that is not possible, temporary netted structures should be used where practical which can
cover large areas. Feeding and watering under cover and using wild bird deterrents will
reduce contact with wild birds.
Captive wildfowl and waterfowl
Birds should be housed whenever possible. As a minimum, all feeding and watering
should take place under cover or in some form of structure to exclude wild birds as far as
possible. Separate your birds from wild birds by netting their enclosures, and make
sensible use of deterrents to reduce their contact with wild birds if practical. You should
consider moving your birds away from large bodies of water that attract wildfowl.
Where separation is not possible, for example where there are large numbers of waterfowl,
every effort should be made to discourage wild birds and keep feed separate.
Hope that helps,
Dans
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I must admit that the requirement to keep hens under cover presented us with a real puzzle. We now only have two and they are used to free ranging through the orchard during the day so confining them to their fairly small henhouse with limited space to move around doesn't appeal.
Not having any other under cover areas/buildings available and, as usual no spare cash, it needed a bit of creative thinking and in the end we decided to utilise our currently unused 2m x 3m polytunnel putting it up tight against the hen house so that there was access into the house, and using a mesh panel barrier at the other end with the flap rolled down to it. The whole lot is held together with a variety of tent pegs, string, an odd bit of chain, and a few reusable cable ties from the 'cuminandy' box. Surprisingly the girls took to it straight away after we added the drinker, feeder, and a dust bath. Provided we don't get any high winds (we do up here!) it might last a few weeks or just long enough to do the job - we'll see.
For what it's worth this is what it looks like:
All that for two hens? Perhaps you have neighbours who are struggling that you vcould help out by offerring to keep theirs in that huge tent - separated from your own of course!
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This a map of where bird flu has been reported someone emailed me today:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.909584769922866%2C4.0088939150391525&hl=en&z=7&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
Do you know if this gets updated? I didn't notice any changes, refreshed each day.
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Anybody signed up for text alerts?
I've just signed up.
Looking at the map do people think there is really a threat? Unless there is a easterly wind?
Living up in the Pennines we very rarely see 'strangers' up here.
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT ?
We've moved the bird feeder up to the front of the house, away from regular footfall, DID have the fat ball feeders hung from trees down near the hen huts.
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it can tip at any time, only takes on sick goose migrating over your property and we get geese daily flying over at the moment.
penniehillbilly, where do you sign up for txts? link please.
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Sorry, haven't worked, Ed out how to copy links via my tablet, but if you follow Dan's link via
gov.uk > biosecurity, there is a link for
Alerts Service
You can choose what form your alerts come in.
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It seems, from that interactive map, that the biggest threat to GB will be from gulls.
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It seems, from that interactive map, that the biggest threat to GB will be from gulls.
How do you interpret that map this way? I can't seem to see any changes when refreshing it (is it interactive or do I just have a still life link from a few days ago?) and waterfowl is also ducks, geese and any other, ehm, waterfowl that is migrating. Plenty of wild ducks found in Holland. Which way is flu travelling this time? A few weeks they said it was migrating birds heading South....
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I just clicked on each icon and it came up with the details.
I may be completely wrong, but I don't think that many ducks make the journey over the sea. Geese, of course do and maybe they're included in waterfowl/wildfowl but not names specifically. Gulls, however, travel far and wide and not so seasonally.
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I found it interesting tapping in the icons, red for domestics, blue for wild, then if you tap the detail at the bottom a lot more info comes up, including date found. Couple of lakes with lots of ducks found.
Gulls could follow fishing boats back, or ferries ? Not sure where geese come down from, but saw some heading NE a couple of weeks ago, seemed odd.
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Does anyone know what is going to happen at the end of 30 days, is this just going to miraculously disappear or as one sceptic said to me "oh it'll be ok then the Christmas birds will all have been dispatched" I just don't get the 30 days, if it s going to continue then I will be getting rid of my birds as I have nowhere suitable to keep them, at the moment they are having to stay in their houses until 3pm when I let them out for an hour so that I clean out and top up feeders and waterers.
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Don't think that anyone has said anything definite yet.
Chief veterinary officer said, "As a precaution, and to allow time for poultry and captive bird keepers to put in place appropriate biosecurity measures we have declared a 30 day Prevention Zone to reduce the risk of infection from wild birds."
Does anyone else think that 'the allow time' bit might mean this is extended or measures tightened?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
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Don't think that anyone has said anything definite yet.
Chief veterinary officer said, "As a precaution, and to allow time for poultry and captive bird keepers to put in place appropriate biosecurity measures we have declared a 30 day Prevention Zone to reduce the risk of infection from wild birds."
Does anyone else think that 'the allow time' bit might mean this is extended or measures tightened?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Might be extended until they consider it safe to lift the precautions, that's how I understood it....I have very unhappy chickens and will have some ridiculously frantic ducks tomorrow.
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Rumours are flying :o I've heard that the biggest threat is from wild swans migrating across to places like Slimbridge. Masses and masses of migrating geese are passing ( yes they head backwards too but I think it's when they quite liked where they stayed last night and head back there at dusk - mmm)
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as it is a disease one has to report once we assume that's what it is.... will all one's birds be culled anyway or do they just cull the all the birds from industrial production units once they have a case? Asking as mine are pets....do they cull the wild ones if they diagnose the cases? I can't believe how many millions of birds have been culled so far across the world. And the first case of human infection in China. Things are not going away just yet.
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Does anyone else think that 'the allow time' bit might mean this is extended or measures tightened?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
No, I think you've got it exactly right. We've all been warned well ahead and should bird flu arrive on our shores in the next few weeks nobody can claim they've had no time to prepare. It's Defra being sensible and thinking ahead, they're probably also keeping in mind that there are many new smallscale keepers who haven't been through this before.
And if the threat passes then they'll lift the ban, but at least they didn't underprepare.
as one sceptic said to me "oh it'll be ok then the Christmas birds will all have been dispatched"
Someone to ignore, Christmas birds don't take that long to process ;)
at the moment they are having to stay in their houses until 3pm when I let them out for an hour so that I clean out and top up feeders and waterers.
Hmmm... The whole country is under lockdown and you let yours out...
My chickens aren't happy either but we'll just have to get through it. Off to do their feeders and drinkers now with a torch - I really must get one of those head torches :)
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I've heard ducks and geese are the worst risk and that they don't show many symptoms, which presumably means they remain healthy enough to spread the virus far and wide. :(
Geese, of course, are coming south at this time of year, not from Europe so presumably aren't importing it at all.
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as it is a disease one has to report once we assume that's what it is.... will all one's birds be culled anyway or do they just cull the all the birds from industrial production units once they have a case? Asking as mine are pets....do they cull the wild ones if they diagnose the cases? I can't believe how many millions of birds have been culled so far across the world. And the first case of human infection in China. Things are not going away just yet.
Good question about the wild birds. If the worst happens, after a cull of all our birds I guess a ban is in place until no more wild birds are found infected? No idea about incubation times...
Mine are pets, too. I think culling is per geographical area, though, not on the birds commercial / pet status or I'd happily house mine in the kitchen for a while if that would save them from a cull.
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Re the Christmas turkeys: they're already being processed, though? It's 10th today. The order is from 6th, it could have been for 15 days then and it would have sufficed.
If it is all about the Christmas birds then really Defra is protecting millions of Christmas dinners and preventing an awful lot of misery. Just imagine: "2016: the year the Christmas turkeys died". I doubt it is, though, but undeniably there are many more commercial birds around in December so a far greater risk.
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at the moment they are having to stay in their houses until 3pm when I let them out for an hour so that I clean out and top up feeders and waterers.
Hmmm... The whole country is under lockdown and you let yours out
Like many people I don't have houses which were built for keeping them in but I am working on moving them in the next day or so to a stable but that also has to be bird proofed. I have around 50 birds so it is not a small task
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I'm at a loss about what I can do about this.
I thought about putting chicken wire over the top of the duck run, but that wouldn't really be sufficient, would it? Yet anything more solid, e.g. tarpaulin, would get shredded by the wind in a matter of hours.
If I simply lock them into their house, they will have no light and no pond. Plus the house is 'cosy' to start with.
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we spent the whole of yesterday, doing the "impossible" and netting our chicken run, to make it worse we only acquired a few new ex=bats last weekend and as they are still getting to grips with their new life we had to do their separate run too. A nightmare job in rain and mud but hey ho. we've used scaffolders debris netting which is light, tough and has small holes that shouldn't let bird poo through.
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Definitely start with the chicken wire as the order has been in place since Tuesday already, then you can look into finer mesh or fabric netting later. Maybe you have some shade netting from a greenhouse?
Then cover their feed, just a sheet of plastic or metal on top of some breeze blocks and weighed down with some timber will do, whatever you have lying around in the garden. This is a time when all those things that were kept because they might come in handy one day actually do come in handy.
*owner of garage full of stuff* ;)
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That's reminded me, I have half a roll of shade netting somewhere, that should be helpful, and survive the wind much better than tarps or plastic sheets.
Feeders are all covered anyway, mostly to keep the driving rain out!
I'm only just back home, was away when I heard the news and couldn't really ask my mother to sort out anything by herself as she was house sitting for me.
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Army surplus tarps are much more sturdy than the ones you buy in B&q or whatever - more like tent fabric , plus they are meant to be tied down
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This is a time when all those things that were kept because they might come in handy one day actually do come in handy.
Me at the weekend:
"Dad, do you think you'll ever use your 1980s windsurfer sails again?"
"Well Womble, at 78 years old, and with a plastic shoulder, I very much doubt it. Why do you ask?"
"Oh, no reason :innocent:"
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Can't help feeling some response from the RSPB is rather overdue. They were quite quick and persistent in advising the public about disinfecting bird feeders etc. in the face of trichomonosis that was killing mainly green finches so why have they said nothing about what (if anything) those with feeders and bird-baths in their gardens could or should be doing in the current situation. After all, most of us are not going to get the virus delivered to our land directly by a migrant swan or goose - it's going to be via smaller birds (if this were not the case why would we be needing small-mesh netting/tarps for enclosures?)
So despite the belief at the RSPB that the spread of trichomonosis might be significantly reduced by the actions of Joe Public in cleaning his bird feeders no such message has been pumped out for bird-flu despite the virus's apparent vulnerability to simple measures. Acidification of water to a pH of 5 or less will it seems inactivate the virus - see:-
http://www.jbc.org/content/262/36/17744.full.pdf (http://www.jbc.org/content/262/36/17744.full.pdf)
(sorry the paper is a bit pointy-headed but the message is clear)
And just for stock here is the pH vs dilution for apple cider vinegar (5% or 1Molar acetic acid):-
http://depts.washington.edu/chem/facilserv/lecturedemo/pHofAceticAcid-UWDept.ofChemistry.html (http://depts.washington.edu/chem/facilserv/lecturedemo/pHofAceticAcid-UWDept.ofChemistry.html)
showing even 1ml per litre would easily drop the pH well below the 5.0 value required.
Anyway, I reckon giving feed in water acidified with apple cider vinegar seems like a worthwhile bit of biosecurity.
Also, dilutions as low as 1:500 of Trigene disinfectant wipes out H5N1 in 10 minutes as per:-
http://www.rapidmicrobiology.com/archived-news/?id=1688h5&item=a-safe-disinfectant-shown-effective-against-bird-flu&nid=2067 (http://www.rapidmicrobiology.com/archived-news/?id=1688h5&item=a-safe-disinfectant-shown-effective-against-bird-flu&nid=2067)
Though it would be good to know if its that good against H5N8 (but despite the current situation I can't find this bit of info anywhere)
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I got a good range of tarps from tarpaulinsdirect.co.uk. They've lasted very well for several years, apart from the one that got nibbled by mice (no, I don't know why either).
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I got a good range of tarps from tarpaulinsdirect.co.uk. They've lasted very well for several years, apart from the one that got nibbled by mice (no, I don't know why either).
I've bought tarps from these too, good stuff, a range of thicknesses. I think they sell mesh netting too for gates, which might be handy. I can imagine mesh netting is a better option for most people, and gives you less of a wind problem than tarps.
My hens are now in the cow shed. They aren't impressed as its rather dark and gloomy in there. On the plus side it does give me the opportunity to lay some rat traps in their run as the rats have recently start to burrow in from underneath!
Not sure how I stop the robins coming in the cow shed though ... but I guess as these aren't migrating birds then it's less of an issue?
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Not sure how I stop the robins coming in the cow shed though ... but I guess as these aren't migrating birds then it's less of an issue?
I've been wondering about that, too. Exactly which birds can carry bird flu - all of them or just certain species? When it arrives in an area how long does it take to die out (no pun intended). I've looked around a bit on the defra and wildlife disease websites but haven't found the answers yet, I'll need to dig some more.
Same here with tarpaulinsdirect, btw. As for the rats, I've had mesh from meshdirect. Starting to notice a pattern here :)
Bits of wooden pallets and the base of a dog cage have come in handy as well these last few days. At least it proves to my husband that it was ever so sensible of me to keep all these things for years on end :D
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It's the migrating species that can carry diseases. Big flocks of Redwings seen overhead here since late September. Fieldfares too. Not really worried about our resident flock of sparrows, robins, nuthatches, tree creepers and so on. I suppose migrating birds could pass the disease on to them and they could later infect our poultry but it's a stretch.
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I'm guessing our 'locals' will get it if it's brought in by migrants, then possibly infect domestics. We probably don't hear of the LBJ's dying because they'd be in undergrowth, dead grass etc, we only hear of the more conspicuous ducks etc.
Since a fox slaughter mine are kept in the polytunnel anyway, with a run that opens to the outside. Been meaning to move them out, glad I didn't, just covered run with perspex. Little birdies sleep in poly.
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I've been wondering about that, too. Exactly which birds can carry bird flu - all of them or just certain species?
Its not an exact science but the highest risk are migrating waterfowl - swans, ducks, geese etc , then other migratory birds coming from or through the infected areas.
Of course that's not to say that migrating birds can't pass it to British wild birds that then pass it on - but again the highest risk are those likely to pick up faeces when feeding, so waterfowl and carrion eaters like magpies. The chances of a robin catching and transmitting it are pretty small i'd have thought (with the proviso that I'm not an epidemiologist)
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I'm currently doing a MOOC (free online course) about flu - human, avian and swine. It was recorded before the current European outbreak of N5H8, but is helpful for the epidemiology and never ending mutation process. It does explain how we can have a pandemic of a new strain one year, then it turns into a seasonal flu variant which gradually decreases in severity, until it disappears, or rather mutates. Seasonal flu spends the winter in the northern hemisphere then toddles off down to the southern hemisphere for their winter.
It has been pointed out that the mutations often seem to start in the far east, where small producers live more closely with their livestock, in a yard, children playing with the hens and pigs, poor hygiene. These fowl are then taken live to large markets and slaughtered at home by the buyer.
Our hens seem quite delighted to be in the polytunnel - one huge dust bath :chook: We could maybe manage with them in there through the summer if it comes to it, by screening off a separate growing bit. Here's hoping it doesn't last so long and lets hope :fc: we don't get a pandemic here.
Remember to pay especial attention to personal hygiene when dealing with your poultry.
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mine are getting a bit fed up with being in the sheep shed and a couple make a run for freedom every time I go in. :) I hope this doesn't last more than 30 days or I will have to sort out something else and split them. Fortunately we have a light in the sheep shed so it's not too dark, but laying has gone down :(
On the plus side sick Posh Chicken seems to be doing well and her eye is now open although still a bit swollen.
Oh! They got their first Christmas card yesterday :) We have some lovely (and slightly mad) customers :thumbsup:
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Argh. I ordered panels for a run on Weds. The guy shipped them on Thurs 48h delivery. I stay in Friday and Saturday but no panels. I email on Saturday night and he says they will probably be there Monday. Stay in all day today only to get an email to say that they have now been shipped today and should be here tomorrow or Weds.
Physically not enough room to put them in without a welfare issue and don't know what to do. I just want to get the in and covered. The chicks and the geese are contained but it is just my main flock. So angry at this seller.
Now off to b&q to see if we can find something.
Dans
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What do people feed geese while confined?
Mine aren't normally given much, so if I suddenly feed them soley corn I can imagine very upset digestive systems.
So far I'm relying on the 'not practicable to keep inside', bit in the biosecurity info, their sheds are too small for 24hr, 30 days, they get fed inside when shut in nights. If the flu does become a problem here it may call for drastic action :-(.
Hens ARE confined to quarters.
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We are feeding a goose feed from our feed suppliers. Seems to be like a seed mix. Wasn't sure they would eat it as they are normally just on grass with a bit of corn but they seem to be doing OK on it. Open to other food suggestions though.
Dans
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Our geese are on primarily wheat, with a few layers' pellets and the occasional handful of mixed corn from the chickens, which is the same as they were getting in the evening when they were free ranging. Obviously they have more of it now, but they're not going through as much as I expected. Not spending much energy while confined I guess.
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My geese previously got goose and duck pellets as well as free ranging. Since they have been shut in they aren't really eating and seem very depressed. They aren't even making any noise. Does anyone have any ideas what I could tempt them with?
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Apples? My geese love them. Head of lettice?
Dans
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During bad weather we boil potato skins, sometimes mix with meal.
Grated carrots etc ?
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We have “Mixed poultry grain” from the local feed merchant ( wheat, barley and maize in what proportion I know not) and that goes down just fine at the rate of about 200g/day/goose or a bit less. From what happens when one has free reign in the veg patch I reckon broccoli leaves would be very welcome!
With the steady rain we keep getting here clearing the water pooling on top of the tarp is getting to be a regular exercise. And if we do get the flu in the wild birds this water could be a dilute H5N8 soup if a passing sick dicky-bird has pooped on the tarp on his way over so I guess we need to treat it as such from now on or it's all a waste of time.
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My geese previously got goose and duck pellets as well as free ranging. Since they have been shut in they aren't really eating and seem very depressed. They aren't even making any noise. Does anyone have any ideas what I could tempt them with?
peas (normal or micronised), maize, apples, spring greens and mine are having some wheat in a shallow water bucket (in water).
some on FB are soaking grass pellets that you can feed horses but I've not tried that-if feeding greens etc also provide some grit.
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I'm at a loss about what I can do about this.
I thought about putting chicken wire over the top of the duck run, but that wouldn't really be sufficient, would it? Yet anything more solid, e.g. tarpaulin, would get shredded by the wind in a matter of hours.
If I simply lock them into their house, they will have no light and no pond. Plus the house is 'cosy' to start with.
Put a tarpaulin/opened-out old feed sacks or whatever on and then put the chicken wire over the top to make a tarp sandwich. It stops everything blowing around and getting shredded.
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We have “Mixed poultry grain” from the local feed merchant ( wheat, barley and maize in what proportion I know not) and that goes down just fine at the rate of about 200g/day/goose or a bit less. From what happens when one has free reign in the veg patch I reckon broccoli leaves would be very welcome!
With the steady rain we keep getting here clearing the water pooling on top of the tarp is getting to be a regular exercise. And if we do get the flu in the wild birds this water could be a dilute H5N8 soup if a passing sick dicky-bird has pooped on the tarp on his way over so I guess we need to treat it as such from now on or it's all a waste of time.
Wedge a stick under the tarp to make a tent so the rain runs off.
My feed bill is going through the roof with them not free ranging, I'm emptying the veg garden putting veg in with roots and stalks still on to give them some interest and break there Bordem.
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/quote]
My feed bill is going through the roof with them not free ranging, I'm emptying the veg garden putting veg in with roots and stalks still on to give them some interest and break there Bordem.
One of my first thoughts was the feed merchants are going to be making some profit.
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Wedge a stick under the tarp to make a tent so the rain runs off.
Thanks - as the run has fox netting over the top it needs a ridge beam over the lot held up by a couple of A-frames. I think it's called building a barn by instalments :)
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I'm at a loss about what I can do about this.
I thought about putting chicken wire over the top of the duck run, but that wouldn't really be sufficient, would it? Yet anything more solid, e.g. tarpaulin, would get shredded by the wind in a matter of hours.
If I simply lock them into their house, they will have no light and no pond. Plus the house is 'cosy' to start with.
Put a tarpaulin/opened-out old feed sacks or whatever on and then put the chicken wire over the top to make a tarp sandwich. It stops everything blowing around and getting shredded.
If the run isn't too big and the roof is low (not more than 75cm, say) you might get away with twinwall polycarbonate - light, strong, but needs sound wood and washers underneath the screw heads to stop it being blown loose.
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I got some white tarps from Bradshaws and they let in plenty of light - have pressed lots of rope, ground anchors and old 5litre bottles into service to hold them down but with a good Derbyshire breeze I expect I'll be picking it up from a neighbour's field some day soon.
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I'm at a loss about what I can do about this.
I thought about putting chicken wire over the top of the duck run, but that wouldn't really be sufficient, would it? Yet anything more solid, e.g. tarpaulin, would get shredded by the wind in a matter of hours.
If I simply lock them into their house, they will have no light and no pond. Plus the house is 'cosy' to start with.
Put a tarpaulin/opened-out old feed sacks or whatever on and then put the chicken wire over the top to make a tarp sandwich. It stops everything blowing around and getting shredded.
If the run isn't too big and the roof is low (not more than 75cm, say) you might get away with twinwall polycarbonate - light, strong, but needs sound wood and washers underneath the screw heads to stop it being blown loose.
Definitely too big to do that- it's a deer fenced run measuring about 6x18m!
However it only cost £30 on Amazon for a 3x50m roll of scaffolding netting so that will do a canopy over the top, with some light timber beams to help support it. The same mesh plus a half roll of windbreak mesh that I already had will go round the sides.
It should stop any direct contact between wild and domestic birds. The weak point of it will be that wild birds could poop onto the roof, which would then get washed through by rain, so if I see evidence of that I may need to rig up some sort of scarer.
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The first run we built is a good 5x5m, so it needed some supports to keep the mesh on top from sagging.
So there are thin long timber slats resting on top of the run to hold the mesh up, but these slats run from the edge of the run to on top of a frame from one of those plastic greenhouses (the easy, slot in type frame) that's standing in the middle of the run.
The reason we used that greenhouse frame as roof support in a chicken run is because when used as a greenhouse the plastic caught the wind so much that it blew onto someone else's allotment within days of erecting it. The plastic shredded in no time but the frame still came in handy :D
For anyone using tarpaulins, my mantra is tent lines, tent lines, tent lines :)
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For anyone using tarpaulins, my mantra is tent lines, tent lines, tent lines :)
Or, in our case, baler twine fixed to anything solid (like a wall) or a pallet with a wrapped round bale on top. Just have to check regularly to make sure the twine hasn't chafed through.
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Does anyone know the current status of disease movement? I assume no cases this side of the Channel so far but just checking in cases anyone knows anything different.
My hen's are getting used to confinement in the woodshed! It has one enclosed bay and a second open bay which I have fenced off with non electrified electric fence net plus a curtain of fruit cage netting hanging on a bamboo pole on cup hooks! It is a pain to get in and out but they are contained, under a solid roof and have light and fresh air. Their coop is in the enclosed bay and is really quite snug, I'm not sure they will want to come back out when this is all over.
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Sadly already heard of someone giving their hens away :-(.
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I guess we should look to the future and have a plan in place for when (note I didn't use "if") it happens again. We started thinking about how to provide cover when we heard Switzerland had gone on lockdown and had only one pen of birds still free-ranging by the time Holland and Belgium did the same. I think we'll try to have almost all the birds in pens with covers as we go into Autumn as a matter of course from now on.
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Does anyone know the current status of disease movement? I assume no cases this side of the Channel so far but just checking in cases anyone knows anything different.
Theres a map here showing all known cases of H5 and H7 in birds last updated on the 13th Dec http://www.oie.int/animal-health-in-the-world/update-on-avian-influenza/2016/ (http://www.oie.int/animal-health-in-the-world/update-on-avian-influenza/2016/) click on it to zoom in.
that said i'm sure that if there was a case in the UK we'd hear about it on national media pretty damn quick
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Sadly already heard of someone giving their hens away :-(.
Me too...quite a few in fact. And, even more sadly, I heard of someone who'd culled their birds. :-\
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I think we're going to do that with most of ours. The geese are miserable stuck in their house all day (they don't even make any noise any more), and the hens didn't even bother leaving their house to go into the covered run today.
We only have a limited amount of space available under cover, so if we can cull out some of the older birds, I hope that will make life more pleasant for the rest.
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my geese worry me the most-they are outside in a covered run and up until today, they didn't seem to be eating a lot. today they have though, a mix of corn/wheat in water, some apples, lettuce and greens. My ducks are also outside in a covered run and while sulking a bit, most of them are this years hatch and spent the first 2 months of their life under nets anyway and seem fine. The chooks are in a stable with a floodlight on a timer and are fine-even come back into lay.
for those of us in Scotland, its to get stormy next week-I simply can't have wind/shade netting or tarps up here when its like that, the ducks will have to come into the stables and be wing clipped which makes me a bit sad. at least I have the option though.
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Why has everyone housed their geese? Welfare states they need to graze ... and the flu regs just says they have to be fed away from wild birds ... cant you feed them and let them out ? ..... or are you in the east where wild water fowl are arriving?
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The government chief vet said - “Everybody should do what they can. Pet bird keepers should do their best and take sensible measures to separate them from wild birds, while looking after their welfare. I don’t want people putting them in a box in the dark and keeping them there for weeks on end.”
While it would be good to have him elaborate on this it does not sound like he is expecting anyone without the facilities to keep all their poultry in a dicky-bird-proof barn to run around snapping their necks at this stage.
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Why has everyone housed their geese? Welfare states they need to graze ... and the flu regs just says they have to be fed away from wild birds ... cant you feed them and let them out ? ..... or are you in the east where wild water fowl are arriving?
When they graze they are eating where wild birds are.
Not only water fowl migrate.
We're already 9 days in of the 30 days, it'll be over soon - if we're lucky and escape the disease, of course, but I'm hopeful.
Luckily it's the darkest and hence sleepiest time of the year.
I thought this would be a good time to worm them, then realised that mine are eating lots of cabagges etc right now to keep them occupied. Maybe not, then :)
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Hope you didn't get those cabbages from the outside world where the wild birds go...
But really, I have some old cabbages left growing outside -- am I allowed to feed those to the confined birds?
I have piles of woodchip I was going to put in with the chickens, but they're stored outside.
How far is one meant to go?
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How far is one meant to go?
We have to take all "reasonably practicable" steps.
That's going to vary from situation to situation, but I think we each know it when we see it.
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Why has everyone housed their geese? Welfare states they need to graze ... and the flu regs just says they have to be fed away from wild birds ... cant you feed them and let them out ? ..... or are you in the east where wild water fowl are arriving?
they expect small numbers of geese to be housed. Mine live in a small shed in a paddock-I've tried to feed them in their tiny shed but it doesn't work. The paddock is too exposed to put up netting and tarps-I know this form experience. I can't give them water thats protected from wild birds out there- so they are in a run in the back garden which is far more sheltered. I am not in the east but do have a problem with corvids-especially large flocks of starlings.
Eve is right, its a good time to worm all of your fowl.
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Hope you didn't get those cabbages from the outside world where the wild birds go...
Luckily the supermarkets wash them very nicely ;)
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Hope you didn't get those cabbages from the outside world where the wild birds go...
as long as they don't come back outside again and the birds are quarantined, its not a problem is it.
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Pleased to report the hens love the polytunnel, lots of light and daytime warmth, those off lay have come back into lay. Ducks don't mind the barn, they have plenty of water and light. But the poor old geese, they swim on a large natural pond all the year round and we lock them up at night. Now they can only gaze at the pond from a distance, and pine.
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I still say, in the biosecurity PDF, if it is not practicable to keep geese in (and other species normally out), they can be out but all reasonable steps taken to prevent wild birds congregating round feed areas. I feed mine under cover in the evening, water is in deep buckets. I would add we are up in the Pennines, i would be more worried down the east side, I have signed up for alerts. Not many migrant species up here.
The hens are under cover.
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I still say, in the biosecurity PDF, if it is not practicable to keep geese in (and other species normally out), they can be out but all reasonable steps taken to prevent wild birds congregating round feed areas.
I think you are right. Simply making provision for the wild birds in a different area may do the trick. My wife effectively runs a wild-bird fast-food restaurant/deli near the house with countless feeders of every sort stocked with fat-balls, sunflower hearts, peanuts, - you name it they have it. There is a constant racket of bird activity around the house but out in the field near the pond it's as empty as a politicians head. Just the two resident moor-hens on the pond but that's about it. I guess wild birds don't waste time in winter pecking about in a damp field when they have food literally on a plate 100 yards away.
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Fair enough. Let's all be aware of one thing though - if your geese contract bird flu, all your other poultry are going to be culled too, as a precaution.
When you think about it, even the prescribed measures aren't actually all that good. For example, many folks have runs covered in scaffold mesh. If an infected bird poops on top of that, won't rain wash it through onto the birds underneath anyway? Just because it's impractical to do anything better, doesn't mean it's going to be 100% effective IMHO.
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I was quite pleased to see someone elses geese out this morning, not just me then :-).
interesting point ColinS, I've noticed robin isn't in the barn as much since we put a feeder in front of the house, other side from the barn.
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I have been badgering the RSPB for days for some kind of response on the current outbreak and they have now posted something (though it's probably just coincidence):-
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/birdflu/archive/2016/12/16/avian-influenza-spreads-throughout-europe.aspx (http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/birdflu/archive/2016/12/16/avian-influenza-spreads-throughout-europe.aspx)
Not sure what to make of it myself and would be interested what others think.
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<<< However there is no evidence of any wild bird species being able to carry this particular strain on a long-distance migration without it causing die-off in the birds themselves, making it unlikely that wild birds are the primary source of avian influenza spread. ”>>>
[/size][/color]
[/size]From your link [member=166759]ColinS[/member] : This is one of those loose , unsupported statements which mean absolutely nothing. No use to us RSPB.[/font][/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]I've mentioned above that many of the more dangerous avian flus which threaten people originate in the far east, where people mix much more closely with their poultry and pigs than most of us do here. Also live birds are taken to market from all around and are a likely source of spread.[/color]
[/size]I had wondered about the likelihood of sick birds making the long migration, but we need far more evidence either way before we can just accept the RSPB claim.[/color]
[/size]No point in creating factions - one where everyone is blaming poultry keepers, and the other where everyone is blaming wild birds. This is far too important for us all not to work together to prevent H5N8 arriving here, if we possibly can[/color]
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Ive be wondering what bio security measures are in place for importing poultry/products for the Christmas markets ?
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When you think about it, even the prescribed measures aren't actually all that good.
Some more detailed info on biosecurity would help. One gem I picked up from a medic is that paddling our muddy wellies in a tray of disinfectant is likely to be as much use as a chocolate fire-guard. Apparently organic matter and soil etc are really effective at neutralising disinfectants so unless you pressure-wash the wellies spotless first you could still be tramping the virus straight into your barn.
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No point in creating factions - one where everyone is blaming poultry keepers, and the other where everyone is blaming wild birds. This is far too important for us all not to work together to prevent H5N8 arriving here, if we possibly can
I entirely agree. Unfortunately, I feel that the all-too-apparent contrasts between the DEFRA and RSPB statements suggests there already exist some seriously entrenched positions within these two organisations.
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No point in creating factions - one where everyone is blaming poultry keepers, and the other where everyone is blaming wild birds. This is far too important for us all not to work together to prevent H5N8 arriving here, if we possibly can
I entirely agree. Unfortunately, I feel that the all-too-apparent contrasts between the DEFRA and RSPB statements suggests there already exist some seriously entrenched positions within these two organisations.
Yep!
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The LPG tanker driver was somewhat startled when I sprang out at him and asked if he'd delivered to any poultry farms recently .....
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http://www.fwi.co.uk/poultry/breaking-news-suspected-bird-flu-outbreak-on-uk-turkey-farm.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/poultry/breaking-news-suspected-bird-flu-outbreak-on-uk-turkey-farm.htm)
:gloomy:
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Oh no no no!!! :'( :'( :'(
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https://www.farminguk.com/News/Suspected-bird-flu-found-on-farm-in-Lincolnshire_45126.html (https://www.farminguk.com/News/Suspected-bird-flu-found-on-farm-in-Lincolnshire_45126.html)
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http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/2178584/bird-flu-confirmed-in-turkeys-at-lincolnshire-farm/ (http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/2178584/bird-flu-confirmed-in-turkeys-at-lincolnshire-farm/)
:'(
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Says there was a confirmed case of bird flu in Dunfermline in January this year, why wasn't there anything in the news about it then ?.
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its about managing risk-everyone is aware that you can't keep birds in completely sterile conditions but one sparrow getting into your run is preferable to flocks of starlings eating the corn you've just thrown out for your hens.
my geese are in a covered run outside, they've settled well now and are eating well etc.
I'd have thought that on a smallholding forum, people would be well versed in basic biosecurity tbh and this is all this is at the moment. that's not a dig, I am just surprised.
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Says there was a confirmed case of bird flu in Dunfermline in January this year, why wasn't there anything in the news about it then ?.
there was but it was also low pathogenicity-so it wasn't killing birds. this has just killed a whole bunch of turkeys presumably before anyone really spotted anything was untoward.
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Was very surprised and concerned when I went to a local market and found that the weekly chicken/duck etc auction was still being held.
Why isn't there a ban in place concerning poultry sales especially auctions?
Surely allowing movement of birds is a disaster waiting to happen,or is defra going to shut the stable door when it's to late?
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I'd have thought halting movements would have been the very first consideration. The virus is far more likely to be spread that way than by random wild birds defecating in your water bowl.
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My cynical nature assumes this is just a tick-box exercise to say something was done. If it's so easily spead by wild birds then it'd take extreme measures to isolate a flock of hens from their keepers taking it into shed.. however well they are netted. You'ld need a change of clothes and boots, a ban on vehicles into the property unless sprayed down top/bottom and underneath and positive pressure filtered ventilation. For small holders with a few hens I doubt it makes much difference in the scheme of things - at worst their own flock dies unless they live next to a major producer. For all that i spent today netting the chicken run to show willing.. 40metres of 3metre wide cable-tied to the fencing. Hens are miserable being used to running around several acres. Next there'll be a shortage of wild birds 'cos they're not getting fed/leftovers.
Even netting wll provide little protection against a wild bird sneezing your way.
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Even netting wll provide little protection against a wild bird sneezing your way.
Isn't it mainly spread (from wild birds) by faeces rather than coughing and sneezing - which is why waterfowl are particularly at risk from contaminated grazing/swimming.
That aside you have to wonder how the lincolnshire flock got infected if they were following the isolation guidance - lets hope it wasn't from buying in infected birds as that would be a big deal (as with the 2001 FMD outbreak)
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Even netting wll provide little protection against a wild bird sneezing your way.
Isn't it mainly spread (from wild birds) by faeces rather than coughing and sneezing - which is why waterfowl are particularly at risk from contaminated grazing/swimming.
That aside you have to wonder how the lincolnshire flock got infected if they were following the isolation guidance - lets hope it wasn't from buying in infected birds as that would be a big deal (as with the 2001 FMD outbreak)
Netting won't stop bird faeces. Even if it does trap it then the next time it rains...
OK, reducing wild bird interactivity with commercial birds reduces incidence i.e makes it spread a bit slower. If it truely is only spread via bird faeces then next tiem it rains (daily here) every lorry and car will be dripping disease.
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Infected birds can shed avian influenza A viruses in their saliva, nasal secretions, and feces.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/avian-in-birds.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/avian-in-birds.htm)
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The most interesting bit of that article is about wild birds and agrees with RSPB stuff ..... Wild birds are much less likely to transmit disease than poultry ...... So why are we shutting up our poultry but still allowed to transport poultry anywhere?
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Its confirmed that the turkey farm in Lincolnshire was affected by the same strain of bird 'flu that has been found in Europe. Defra have ordered that all poultry must be kept undercover and bio security maintained.
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Sadly government website confirms it:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-influenza-bird-flu-identified-at-lincolnshire-farm (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-influenza-bird-flu-identified-at-lincolnshire-farm)
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It's worth noting that "most" of the 5000 turkeys died from the disease and the rest will be culled. Trouble is the symptoms of infection are mostly of the "a bit off colour" variety and the blue tinge of the neck and head would be hard to spot in a turkey anyway.
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It's worth noting that "most" of the 5000 turkeys died from the disease
Which shows how virulent it is. Scary!!
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It's worth noting that "most" of the 5000 turkeys died from the disease
Which shows how virulent it is. Scary!!
I wonder how observant the keeper was? Employee who just paid to feed, didn't notice a few not interested ?
In the meantime, has it been carried OUT of the units?
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It's worth noting that "most" of the 5000 turkeys died from the disease
Which shows how virulent it is. Scary!!
I wonder how observant the keeper was? Employee who just paid to feed, didn't notice a few not interested ?
In the meantime, has it been carried OUT of the units?
The farm is not more than 2 miles from RSPB Tetney Marshes so no shortage of opportunistic wild birds in the area (e.g. gulls) to pick it up if it did get out.
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I wonder how observant the keeper was? Employee who just paid to feed, didn't notice a few not interested ?
In the meantime, has it been carried OUT of the units?
Academic... it got IN so it's OUT THERE... More likely it'll be the dead birds being badly disposed of that also spreads it. There's stories locally during the F&M outbreak of lorries driving through town with blood spilling out of them on each corner. Even with typical exaggeration there'll be some truth. the intial spread was more to do with the road network than winds and animal migration.
I'm guessing all Gov wants is to slow the thing down so there isn't an absolute shortage of birds/eggs at any one time. It'll clear when it's been through the wild population and they have died/become immune.
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I wonder how observant the keeper was? Employee who just paid to feed, didn't notice a few not interested ?
In the meantime, has it been carried OUT of the units?
Academic... it got IN so it's OUT THERE... More likely it'll be the dead birds being badly disposed of that also spreads it. There's stories locally during the F&M outbreak of lorries driving through town with blood spilling out of them on each corner. Even with typical exaggeration there'll be some truth. the intial spread was more to do with the road network than winds and animal migration.
I'm guessing all Gov wants is to slow the thing down so there isn't an absolute shortage of birds/eggs at any one time. It'll clear when it's been through the wild population and they have died/become immune.
Got in or was brought in? (as per 2007)
I think you will find that the farm had the turkeys in at least 5 sheds so one has to ask how the virus got into most or all of the sheds (which must have happened for “most” of the birds to die before the cull started).
Re-reading the info on the 2007 Bernard Matthews outbreak is rather depressing:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Bernard_Matthews_H5N1_outbreak
Especially the :-
“The cause of the outbreak was not determined “
The entirely predictable political stances e.g. :-
“The Hungary link was dismissed by the European Commission on 12 February “
and
“On 11 February the investigation revealed that turkey products were still being transported, in both directions, between the plant and Hungary with EU regulations being cited as the reason why a transport ban could not be imposed ”
And the rapid re-establishment of business as usual:-
“Bernard Matthews was given permission to resume its shipments of poultry between the UK and Hungary from 17 February even though Defra indicated that Hungarian turkey products remained the "most plausible" cause of the outbreak. “
that was just 14 days after the initial confirmation of H5N1 as the cause.
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Just seen a large flight of geese heading West, (Hebden Bridge, W.Yorks). Normally I love to watch them, now I'm thinking , 'please, keep going' :-(.
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Just seen a large flight of geese heading West, (Hebden Bridge, W.Yorks). Normally I love to watch them, now I'm thinking , 'please, keep going' :-(.
"And don't poop while you're passing" ::)
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I put my cereal bowl on top of a gatepost this morning whilst I filled up the duck's water bucket. By the time I came back, our resident robin was helping himself to my rice crispies.
Let's face it, if I can't keep wild birds off MY food, what chance have I got with the poultry!? :-[
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I put my cereal bowl on top of a gatepost this morning whilst I filled up the duck's water bucket. By the time I came back, our resident robin was helping himself to my rice crispies.
Let's face it, if I can't keep wild birds off MY food, what chance have I got with the poultry!? :-[
You have an especially tenacious breed of robin up there - I was at a croft near Perth last month and the robins only went outside to swap barns.
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Let's face it, if I can't keep wild birds off MY food, what chance have I got with the poultry!? :-[
That's a bit defeatist, it's only a robin enjoying what you put out for it. A bit of small mesh will protect feeders, a piece of mdf or plastic on top as a roof, easy peasy. Either that or lock the robin in with the chickens until 5th jan :)
But at least now you have a good excuse to have breakfast indoors and relax for a few minutes in the morning whilst enjoying your rice krispies. You got that robin's hopes up now, though ;)
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Now there is a confirmed case in UK, does anyone know how long beyond 6th Jan we will have to keep birds protected? Does it depend on x number of days/ weeks after the last reported case?
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I put my cereal bowl on top of a gatepost this morning whilst I filled up the duck's water bucket. By the time I came back, our resident robin was helping himself to my rice crispies.
Hmmm..first principle of isolation..no eating or drinking near the patients :innocent:
Now there is a confirmed case in UK, does anyone know how long beyond 6th Jan we will have to keep birds protected? Does it depend on x number of days/ weeks after the last reported case?
Depends on the real reason for instituting it to begin with... if to give producers time to react/institute measures then should make no difference....On the other hand if it's to make some minister feel important...
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Depends on the real reason for instituting it to begin with... if to give producers time to react/institute measures then should make no difference....On the other hand if it's to make some minister feel important...
Given that two of the five previous detected occurrences of HP bird flu in the UK have been almost certainly caused by importation of birds or poultry products (only the dead swan at Cellardyke in 2006 flew here or was washed up here and no published conclusions regarding origin in the other cases) movement of poultry/eggs/products is still pretty much business as usual. If you read the Declaration of a Protection Zone and a Surveillance Zone (Avian Influenza) issued by DEFRA in Lincolnshire in regard of the affected farm:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/578789/ai-pz-lincolnshire-161216.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/578789/ai-pz-lincolnshire-161216.pdf)
you see that in the outer (10km) surveillance zone movements need only be recorded "as soon as reasonably practicable ". From this I infer that outside that zone movements don't even need to be recorded - can that really be true?
Given that DEFRA was not able to stop importation and exportation even in respect of the affected plant and the EU following the 2007 occurrence - see:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Bernard_Matthews_H5N1_outbreak#cite_note-8 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Bernard_Matthews_H5N1_outbreak#cite_note-8)
one has to ask are the current restrictions as much a matter of DEFRA being seen to do something as being instigated in the real belief that they will accomplish anything.
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That's a bit defeatist, it's only a robin enjoying what you put out for it.
I know. It made me smile, so I thought I'd share, that's all. We could all use a laugh these days, as I can't see the restrictions being removed any time soon :-\ .
A bit of small mesh will protect feeders, a piece of mdf or plastic on top as a roof, easy peasy
How do the chickens get in then? ???
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one has to ask are the current restrictions as much a matter of DEFRA being seen to do something as being instigated in the real belief that they will accomplish anything.
Exactly.
This is an island. Even within the US there are different rules re import into Hawaii for instance with dogs.. to keep that island status disease 'free'..... Another reason for leaving EU and/or demanding the right to inspect, quarantine and limit imports of food/veg/plants much like Aus and NZ do.
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So why can the French ban imports of beef, but we can't ban imports of birds?
Methinks there might be more to this than meets the eye.
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So why can the French ban imports of beef, but we can't ban imports of birds?
Methinks there might be more to this than meets the eye.
The French don't worry about the niceties - their farmers just fill a few miles of motorway with John Deeres and stand around smoking Gauloises with the few cops sent to move them on. And if the minister does not sound like he is backing them up fully they herd some livestock into his office to remind him what farming is about.
We have a lot to learn.
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Has anyone noticed how much paler the yolks are already? Couldn't believe it and I'm sure the flavour isn't as nice. My birds are now split up into 3 houses, 2 with runs which are just netted and feed and water all inside, but they are so fed up poor things. If its going to continue beyond the 4 week period (and with the recent outbreak theres every possibility that it will) then we will have to start culling our own flock to reduce numbers - I'm heartbroken :'(
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Are they getting less grass and making up with more grain?
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We've put the geese in because it would have been impossible to even keep their water away from other birds, farless the grazing. And we have the space to do so.
Only issue is they aren't eating their food much but don't seem hungry for corn in the evening. I'm wondering if they are a bit depressed? Any ideas of something I can give them? They have a goose food mix and mixed corn in the evening.
Can I put some hay and straw in to give them a bit of shelter from the cold ground and maybe something else to nibble on?
Any boredom busters for chickens and geese?
Dans
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A bit of small mesh will protect feeders, a piece of mdf or plastic on top as a roof, easy peasy
How do the chickens get in then? ???
Surely there's a little corner somewhere, somewhere out of sight under a pallet or some mdf, a bit of mesh with an entry for the chickens but out of the hungry robin's sight, or in their coop...? There's always a solution. We have food inside a run with rat proof mesh that has a door on a timer, as the large daytime enclosure around it is fox proof not rat / small bird proof. Just don't put a trail of rice krispies out towards the chicken run, 'cause that robin will be checking up on you now! :) Plus it might just prefer granola? ;)
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Can I put some hay and straw in to give them a bit of shelter from the cold ground and maybe something else to nibble on?
Any boredom busters for chickens and geese?
Dans
An old pallet covered over with enough straw to stop their feet going through the gaps seems to be popular. Geese seem to like rearranging straw even if they don't eat it. Just being in with them must be therapeutic for them - all that tugging of hair and pecking at jeans (with or without a bit of flesh involved) must give them some enjoyment even if it doesn't give you any :)
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Just being in with them must be therapeutic for them - all that tugging of hair and pecking at jeans (with or without a bit of flesh involved) must give them some enjoyment even if it doesn't give you any :)
There you go, peeps, sacrifice yourselves for the benefit of your birds! ;D (Personally, I'll stick to buying cabagges but then again I don't stand a chance of surviving this as I'm wearing leggings and they're far too thin to stop the birds' beaks from nibbling me! ;) )
It's a shame this is such a lousy situation otherwise we could see who's made the best contraption / boredom buster / wild bird deterrent, I bet there are some resourceful people amongst us.
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Perhaps it might be an idea for people to post pictures of their poultry shelters, any ideas for relieving boredom etc. We are all concerned about the welfare of our flocks,no matter how large or small, and any suggestions could be shared.
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When it was really bad weather one winter I was giving them ready grass (or something similar), a quick dried grass cut in short lengths. I put it in the bottom of their trough and their feed on top. It was always gone next morning.
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We've put the geese in because it would have been impossible to even keep their water away from other birds, farless the grazing. And we have the space to do so.
Only issue is they aren't eating their food much but don't seem hungry for corn in the evening. I'm wondering if they are a bit depressed? Any ideas of something I can give them? They have a goose food mix and mixed corn in the evening.
Can I put some hay and straw in to give them a bit of shelter from the cold ground and maybe something else to nibble on?
Any boredom busters for chickens and geese?
Dans
my geese didn't eat much at first but seem fine now-they have a water bucket that I put in some apples, mixed corn and grit as well as some lettuce-the lettuce was the thing that seemed to get them going again! although they'll always eat apples and occasionally they get peas which they like. they do eat spring greens but not as avidly as the ducks and chickens. I am also soaking grass pellets for them-these are the Dengie horse ones but there are others.This is in addition tot he water they bathe in.
chickens get a slice of seed hay/straw with goodies chucked on it-I've never had a problem giving mine this (I do it anyway) and they have constant access to grit.
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I culled 15 hens yesterday, was to be 20 but just couldn't do the bluebells, the rest are now in a stable and already looking happier than when they were stuck in their houses.
3 of my 5 geese are now plucked and hanging, unfortunately no room in the freezer for the 2 remaining.
Just going to have to wait like everyone else to see what's to happen at the end of the 30 days.
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Don't worry Daisy's Mum, you're not the only one. Our geese have now been rendered immune to bird flu, with half of the hens to follow once I have the stomach for it :bouquet:.
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It's one thing culling out stock it's what we do when the time is right, but it's bad crack when your hand is forced.
But I'm thinking along the same lines as you guys :gloomy:
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My remaining muscovies:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/7657774/width/200/height/400)
Now they have to be locked up but soon will end up as duck sausages! Well, as soon as I get my smoker working
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Any boredom busters for chickens and geese?
Put in some logs for them to peck at/perch on, a bale of hay, a few objects like an upturned crate. Rearrange them every day so their environment changes. Scatter a very little corn at intervals through the day. Hang up an old CD, cabbage stalk, branch with a few leaves on if you have any left, or hazel with catkins or next year's buds on it ...
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Has anyone else noticed that the BBC seem to be treating this story with zero interest. No mention on Radio 2 news of the Lincolnshire outbreak and you have to know about the story so you can hunt it out on their website under England/regions/Lincolnshire! - Not of national interest apparently (unlike the 'Strictly' result it seems)
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Here's something to try - hang something like a strong bulldog clip up on a piece of rope, then attach treats like melon rind or cabbage leaves (Melon rind is great, because it looks as though the hens are playing chicken swingball. Just me? ok, never mind :innocent:). Then once they've got the idea, raise the clip by an inch every couple of days.
We eventually bred a super race of ninja black rocks using this method, who would jump nearly three feet for a beakful of swiss chard! ;D
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I hung a cabbage in their run and they treat it as though it's going to attack them, put it in a dish and they still haven't touched it.
Might try a piece of bread in an unused 'fat ball' feeder, i like the swing all idea :-)
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My big layers devoured their cabbage in a day!
Seen on an ex batt forum, a small plastic drink bottle with small holes cut in and filled with corn. There was a video of the hens scratching it around. Might try that.
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I've just been out scavenging for windfall crab apples and they are having great fun chasing them around.
Hoping to get some cabbages and lettuce for them later from Morrisons reduced bin!
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In the hills- was the bottle just laid down in the run?
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Should you really throw them windfall apples though?
Presumably these are from an area open to wild birds so could be contaminated. I nearly did the same today but then thought the blackbirds had been pecking them!
Had to drive to Telford hospital today. Lots of chickens free ranging still!!!!!
All clearly visible from the main road, too!
Makes me a bit cross when mine are all stuck inside.
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Yes, bottle was just on the ground. I've popped one in for mine.
Suppose you could suspend one as well.
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It's a bit like Chicken Run here at the moment! They hear us coming and are at the door ready to make a run for it!
So mine had half a cabbage today which some of them liked and others ignored, they have a CD hanging from the roof that they just ignore. I put a plastic chair in with them for something else to perch on - not overly interested. Then I put a large cardboard box on it's side filled with shavings and chopped hay - they LOVE it! In and out, in and out.
Happy chooks! :chook:
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Forecast says big winds coming for much of Britain over the next week. Now's the time to check your run coverings etc won't just blow off.
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Looking on the very slim bright side (I'm a glass half full kind of guy) the storm is due from the west - this will push birds migrating south from russia/scandinavia etc eastwards and make it less likely that infected birds will make British landfall
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Should you really throw them windfall apples though?
Presumably these are from an area open to wild birds so could be contaminated. I nearly did the same today but then thought the blackbirds had been pecking them
That thought did occur to me so checked that they had not been pecked and gave them a wash too!
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Should you really throw them windfall apples though?
Presumably these are from an area open to wild birds so could be contaminated. I nearly did the same today but then thought the blackbirds had been pecking them
That thought did occur to me so checked that they had not been pecked and gave them a wash too!
a dowsing with boiling water , or freezing them ought to kill any remaining virus strands ... also the chances of it being communicated by resident blackbirds is pretty slim
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Ban on poultry gatherings announced from today.
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All OH's totally ignore cabbage or lettuce. They're used to having unlimited ranging (although they generally stick to the 3 acre curtilage). Stir-crazy sums it up.
a dowsing with boiling water , or freezing them ought to kill any remaining virus strands
Where did that come from? Genrally freezing preserves viruses. Boiling water might well do the job depending on the individual viruses senstivity... time and timeperature. You'ld probably do better rinsing them in dilute bleach or in virkon etc then washing that off. Of course the cabbage or lettuce etc also came from outdoors.....
The best thing to come of penning them up is that the house pathways aren't covered in bird-poo...
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From this paper I believe that a pH of less than 5.0 (which can be obtained with the normal 10ml/litre solution of apple cider vinegar) will inactivate flu viruses. So I reckon putting any feed into water with this amount of ACV should help.
http://www.jbc.org/content/262/36/17744.full.pdf (http://www.jbc.org/content/262/36/17744.full.pdf)
The paper is very heavy going though!
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I had a quick scan through that paper and unless i missed something (possible) then at pH5 there was no inactivation at 0C although there was at pH 4.8. The relevance of winter.. though if you're rinsing stuff indoors that doesn't apply but they also gave it 5 mins treatment. As I recall my chemistry pH is log to the base10 of Hydrogen ion concentration. So a dilution to 10% will (generally) change pH by 1. So It depends on the pH of your starting solution ... not all apple cider vinegar will be the same. This is also an unbuffered solution so it's use will change pH. having the means to check pH could be useful.. either a cheapo garden pH meter or some pH sticks (urine ones would do)
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Yes, the effect at low temperatures seems to be by a different mechanism. I have had a look around and all the ACV I can find is listed as 5% which is about 0.9 Molar. I found this handy little page which suggests that a 10ml/litre dilution to just under 0.01M and even 1ml/litre (0.001M) gives a pH well below 4:-
http://depts.washington.edu/chem/facilserv/lecturedemo/pHofAceticAcid-UWDept.ofChemistry.html (http://depts.washington.edu/chem/facilserv/lecturedemo/pHofAceticAcid-UWDept.ofChemistry.html)
I got some Universal indicator paper from Rapidonline.co.uk for a couple of quid that allowed me to make a reasonable check.
I have also added ACV to the bird-baths for the wild birds in the hope that this might just make the bath less of a risk to spreading the virus (I think its perhaps significant that water birds in the wild seem to get it and I wonder if this is that infected ones contaminate whole ponds which their mates all puddle about in while other birds just infect a few patched of ground where their poop lands.)
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As I remember, a very dilute solution of citric acid wiped out Foot and Mouth virus. Maybe that'd be a more quantifiable means of acidifying water? I believe it's still available at feed merchants.
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Just bought half a dozen fat ball feeders which I stuff with various veggies, they love pecking at these, I also put in some apples from the store but what with that and lettuce for the ducks its costing me a packet and the houses need cleaning out far more often so more straw and shavings. Still at least I only have a few, it must be so much worse for those of you with large flocks or with breeds that need to be kept separate - really feel for you :hug:
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I have just been told that a dead Wigeon has been found in Llanelli, Wales, and has been confirmed as having bird flu. Its getting closer to me now, near Carmarthen. Despite locking my chucks up and keeping them from wild birds etc etc, if they all get bird flu and die ( worse case scenario) what do l do with the bodies, anyone know? They are all healthy at the moment but it did occur to me that disposal of any carcases has not been mentioned. Just wondering.
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I have just been told that a dead Wigeon has been found in Llanelli, Wales, and has been confirmed as having bird flu. Its getting closer to me now, near Carmarthen. Despite locking my chucks up and keeping them from wild birds etc etc, if they all get bird flu and die ( worse case scenario) what do l do with the bodies, anyone know? They are all healthy at the moment but it did occur to me that disposal of any carcases has not been mentioned. Just wondering.
If you get it then the officials will descend and tell you exactly what you need to do.
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I read somewhere that incorrect disposal of infected birds had the potential to spread the disease.
Think I would contact the vet in the worse case scenario and get them to advise.
I'm in Wales too. Let's hope it doesn't come to that :fc:
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I read somewhere that incorrect disposal of infected birds had the potential to spread the disease.
Think I would contact the vet in the worse case scenario and get them to advise.
I'm in Wales too. Let's hope it doesn't come to that :fc:
If your chickens become ill then you call the vet, if they suspect avian flu they report it and test for it, then the officials will take over. It is notifiable.
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Yes. In the last outbreak a few years ago when measures were in place, my sister's friend had a chicken that was unwell. She took it to the vet. Vet told her that they would have to notify and almost as soon as she returned home she had a phone call to say officials were on their way.
They turned up in their white suits and took samples. They must have been happy with the findings and nothing more came of it.
I think that all you'd need to do is notify the vet of any concerns.
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I have just been told that a dead Wigeon has been found in Llanelli, Wales, and has been confirmed as having bird flu. Its getting closer to me now, near Carmarthen. Despite locking my chucks up and keeping them from wild birds etc etc, if they all get bird flu and die ( worse case scenario) what do l do with the bodies, anyone know? They are all healthy at the moment but it did occur to me that disposal of any carcases has not been mentioned. Just wondering.
What's a WIGEON? Is it a welsh pigeon? Sorry, just joking....
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I have 2 rescue girls (ex organic egg farm girls) who have now really had their beaks put out of joint.. Not only were they moved from acres of free ranging to a back garden of a terraced town house, they now can't even leave their covered run. They have been really stressed a) because of a repeatedly visiting fox whom we can't keep out of the garden and b) they can't stand being 'cooped' up (sorry). Lots of feathers have appeared at end of run and tiny bald patches are appearing. Have tried the hanging cd, cabbage and stuff to jump on etc, hidden corn etc. I feel awful. What with the fear of the fox and the lack of freedom I really don't feel like my happy chickens are quite so happy. If they are really feeling so miserable, would it be better to (deep breath) cull them? This has been our first foray into hen keeping and was primarily to have eggs.. They are still laying but not always one each but that's not the issue. I'm just worried about their mental and physical welfare.
Any advice would be welcome!
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Mizzpetit - could they be moulting? My six rescue hens had started before being grounded, the amount of feathers in a confined area looks extreme, like someone has emptied a pillow out. I don't think that the actual shedding is any more than usual it's just that the feathers are "cooped up". They also go off lay when moulting, I'm certainly seeing fewer eggs.
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I agree. Could just be moulting and egg production will naturally slow down or stop altogether as they put energy into feather production.
A couple of mine are moulting at the moment.
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Can you spend some time watching them to see if they are feather pecking rather than moulting? Lots of feathers plus bald patches sounds more like moulting than feather pecking. I know how difficult it can be for confined hens, mine are a bit bored despite a variety of enrichment. I hope they settle soon.
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With the steady rain we keep getting here clearing the water pooling on top of the tarp is getting to be a regular exercise. And if we do get the flu in the wild birds this water could be a dilute H5N8 soup if a passing sick dicky-bird has pooped on the tarp on his way over so I guess we need to treat it as such from now on or it's all a waste of time.
My son poked tiny holes in the tarp before putting it on so the rain would drip through. Never anticipated all this rain making it into bird flu soup :-(
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I have a ridge beam allowing the water to run off but, given that it only lands just outside the pen I did wonder if a tarp drain or two (like the ones Bradshaws sell) might be better as the pipe could be extended to take the water further away.
I guess you need to do a bit of work with gaffer tape on those holes - some of my old tarps over some of the machines owe a lot to gaffer tape ;D
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Bad news 23/12/16 , A wild peregrine falcon found in Dumfries and Galloway has tested positive for H5N8 Avian Influenza
http://news.gov.scot/news/avian-influenz (http://news.gov.scot/news/avian-influenz) .
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Must have been someone he ate :-\ .
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Some pigeons too.
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Some pigeons too.
I'm hoping the pigeon story is a mistake. This one mentions wood pigeons in Leicestershire and Somerset which sounds suspiciously like the source mis-heard the reports about widgeon in those counties:-
http://www.essexlive.news/brentwood-animal-sanctuary-closes-amid-bird-flu-fears/story-30009414-detail/story.html (http://www.essexlive.news/brentwood-animal-sanctuary-closes-amid-bird-flu-fears/story-30009414-detail/story.html)
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I have not heard of any more flu deaths in the last few days, anyone heard when we can let our poultry out??
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I have not heard of any more flu deaths in the last few days, anyone heard when we can let our poultry out??
The current Order is in place until the 6th of January so I wouldn't think we will hear anything before.
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Lets hope they wont extend the date, my girls look so sad sometimes even given things to do to keep them occupied. Not getting any eggs either.
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i thought it was the 10th so am happy to hear they could be let out on the 6th :fc:
I have setup a system that allows the sun into the field shelter in the morning but the girls can't get out - we do have to stay in the vacinity tho or they do flow off! We've also started digging up slabs of grass and putting it in with them.
But i shall be so pleased when this is all over and the sheep can have their (thoroughly disinfected) shelter back!
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i thought it was the 10th so am happy to hear they could be let out on the 6th :fc:
I have setup a system that allows the sun into the field shelter in the morning but the girls can't get out - we do have to stay in the vacinity tho or they do flow off! We've also started digging up slabs of grass and putting it in with them.
But i shall be so pleased when this is all over and the sheep can have their (thoroughly disinfected) shelter back!
You may be correct - I had the 6th in my head. I wouldn't hold your breath about the restrictions being lifted though.
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considering they've stopped all auctions and showing of poultry until the 19th, I can't see them lifting the restrictions until at least then-more cases may well come to light once the holidays are over. I've floored my pens with pallets and rubber matting for the ducks for something a bit longer term.
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We've also started digging up slabs of grass and putting it in with them.
You may not want to do that [member=156795]desertmum[/member] if you're taking grass from outside into the birds you may well be serving them up bird flu inadvertently. They are in to stop them interacting with ground where wild birds are. If you take hhe outside ground into them you negate keeping them in.
We're taking advantage of the order and have ordered the worming pellets. I always worry about the free ranging affecting the flubenvet dosage. Nicely cooped up its a good time to worm.
Dans
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That is a good idea Dans. Might do likewise. Can I raise a feeding question on this thread? My birds are soooo bored, not laying much, and just standing about in the run - and I wondered about introducing new green stuff for them to eat.
They are eating our stored marrows very happily but we will run out soon. I do not feed kitchen waste ever and do understand why I cannot cook up food for the birds in a domestic kitchen -but can I cook up vegetables ( i have sprouts in mind as I hate them, the birds dont eat them raw and the local shop is practically giving them away) if cooked outside in a barn on a camping stove, or in sealed bags in a microwave ?
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Watched a flock of geese fly over today, heading West, then actually made a 90deg turn to the north, wonder if co-pilot said ooops read the map wrong :-).
Can anyone ID. Dark wings, fawn breast, bright white patch under tail, almost like an electric light burning :-). Low sun probably highlighted them. Canada geese? Sounded different somehow.
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[member=81338]Ghdp[/member] I think if you're wanting to limit possible contamination from the kitchen you'd have to thorough disinfect the pan or buy a new pan and cook outside. If you don't use any utensils from the kitchen that should be safe.
Dans
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They are eating our stored marrows very happily but we will run out soon. I do not feed kitchen waste ever and do understand why I cannot cook up food for the birds in a domestic kitchen -but can I cook up vegetables ( i have sprouts in mind as I hate them, the birds dont eat them raw and the local shop is practically giving them away) if cooked outside in a barn on a camping stove, or in sealed bags in a microwave ?
You are not meant to feed anything that has been in a kitchen so your veg should not have been in the kitchen first. I have never heard of the sealed bags in a microwave before.
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Our local health man just warned me about cross contamination from meat. Didn't say don't do it. Always been very careful
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I wouldn't hold your breath about the restrictions being lifted though.
Indeed! The way I'm thinking is that if the virus has a 2 week incubation period, the restrictions won't be lifted until there have been no new cases for at least two weeks, and probably quite a bit longer to be on the safe side. I think we're in for the long haul here folks! :(
WRT feeding vegetables to poultry, IMHO there is a disconnect between what is risky and what is illegal.
These laws were intended to prevent birds from being fed all sorts of kitchen and commercial waste (a la pig swill), which is by its nature high risk. However, if the veggies haven't been in contact with meat or other 'human' foods, the risk of transmitting disease to your poultry in that way must be absolutely minimal, especially if you're going to boil them. Personally, if I'd feed it to a Vegan friend, I have no problem in giving it to the hens. This includes things like left over plain pasta and rice, as well as carrot peelings, squishy grapes etc.
I'm going to hide now, in anticipation of being flamed or arrested! :sofa:
P.S. look how times have changed! ;) :
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/inf13-143131.jpg)
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Thanks all.
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duh! how stupid am I? Yes, indeed, giving the chooks grass is sooooo silly!
Back to apples and other veg then. Out of 12, nine of my chooks are ex-bats, so after a slight dip in production are busy laying again, including our Posh Chicken that had to go to the vets twice. We are lucky as our sheep shelter has lighting to it, so we leave the light on all day which helps I think and we spend time with them to break the boredom.
Roll on the 19th!
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I'm with you Dans. My girls are halfway through their medicated feed!
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Every cloud and all that...making the most of having empty hen houses to repair roofs and give a good deep clean!
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Has anyone read DEFRAS latest update? Dated 29th December.
Sounds as though we can expect the Prevention measures to continue????
'pose a continuing risk to our poultry sector for a considerable time' :'(
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We had visitors over Christmas who went out for the day on boxing day. On their travels they said thy saw several batches of chickens not enclosed in any way. Some straying across the road. :-(
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I couldn't find the 29th December update [member=24384]in the hills[/member] - do you have a link?
Whilst I was looking (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu), I did notice this statement though:
Clinical signs can vary between species of bird and some species may show minimal clinical signs (ducks and geese).
Is that perhaps why migrating waterfowl are a particular problem? If they aren't feeling too bad, they just carry on migrating or whatever, and infect other birds en route?
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/avian-influenza-bird-flu-in-europe (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/avian-influenza-bird-flu-in-europe)
Pdf on that page.
Yeah that is likely why waterfowl are the issue and why I put my geese in first as they can incubate it and spread ithe without showing much signs.
Dans
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https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580867/hpai-europe-update7.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580867/hpai-europe-update7.pdf)
On DEFRAs page. It was an article under the heading 'latest' at the bottom of the page. Hope the link works.
Bionic, mine are in and under cover but very few are being kept in around me and as we have travelled around Mid _ North Wales over the last few days we have seen loads out free ranging. Sometimes wonder why I'm bothering!!!
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I've seen some free-ranging too. Maybe some folks with a few birds haven't heard about it ....? I wouldn't want to be the one whose birds caught H5N8 - the grapevine around here would ensure everyone knew about it!
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We have ours safely cooped up but there is an escaped Rhea running around the village. Ho hum.
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We have seen quite a few small flocks still out around us in North Wales but I would not know anything about the restriction if it was not for this forum. There is no wide scale advertising of the measures that I have seen.
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My chicken are coping fine as we have netted their existing run so they haven't had any restriction on space. My ducks are totally fed up however and look very bored. They have ad lib wheat/maize and water to bath in but can anyone suggest anything to help with the boredom? The only silver lining is the drakes are fattening quicker than normal but if this restriction is going to be semi permanent I want to try and help their boredom a bit :-[ they are in a woodchip, netted pen
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14 more wild birds found with it in three different locations:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580997/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580997/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview)
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Watched a flock of geese fly over today, heading West, then actually made a 90deg turn to the north, wonder if co-pilot said ooops read the map wrong :-).
Can anyone ID. Dark wings, fawn breast, bright white patch under tail, almost like an electric light burning :-). Low sun probably highlighted them. Canada geese? Sounded different somehow.
My guess is that would be a flock of mainly juvenile Canada geese - they still have the faun breast but are bright white below the tail. They don't get the brilliant white breast till after the first moult
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Thanks ColinS, Canada geese were all I could think of, not sure what other non-white would be around. Also just sounded different, been having a few flocks over recently.
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Current situation in UK https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580997/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/580997/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview)
Avian influenza (subtype H5N8) identified in wild birds in Great Britain
Week beginning Location (county) Number of findings Species involved Total number of birds involved
19/12/2016 Carmarthenshire 1 Duck 1
19/12/2016 Dumfries and Galloway 1 Bird of prey 1
19/12/2016 Leicestershire 1 Duck 1
19/12/2016 Somerset 1 Duck 1
26/12/2016 Lincolnshire 1 Ducks 5
26/12/2016 Gloucestershire 1 Ducks, Geese 4
26/12/2016 Merseyside 1 Ducks, Gull, Cormorant 5
Last updated: 30 December 2016
:(
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...Also just sounded different ...
Just have to hope that wasn't down to them all having a bit of a sore throat ;D
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I've just registered for alerts on Bird flu so I know exactly when I can let my birds out.
http://animalhealth.system-message.co.uk/AH_subscribe_index.php (http://animalhealth.system-message.co.uk/AH_subscribe_index.php)
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Melton Market website finally announced "no poultry sales untill further notice"...
You know, for some people this is full time job!
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A backyard flock of chickens and ducks has been confirmed in Wales today.
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Oh blow!!!!!! Or words to that effect! :'( :'( :'(
Guess they're not being given freedom anytime soon.
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No official notification yet, just the zone around the affected premises.
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There was a sparrow inside my bantam coop today! No idea how it got there! Thought it was mouse proof!
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Backyard Farm Pontyberem Carmarthenshire Wales UK
description
Bird flu has been confirmed in chickens and ducks in a backyard on a premises in Carmarthenshire in southwest Wales.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.819692926216334%2C-3.7996387998045975&hl=en&z=9&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.819692926216334%2C-3.7996387998045975&hl=en&z=9&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
:(
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:-(
I've been holding out hope that it will be lifted soon but I think it's pretty unlikely now.
Anyone have any tips of something I can put on the ground in my chicken's run as it is getting muddy. I use wood shavings in the house.
And anything for geese as the polytunnel (weed proof fabric) is turning into a mud skating ring. Would straw be ok for them?
Dans
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Backyard Farm Pontyberem Carmarthenshire Wales UK
description
Bird flu has been confirmed in chickens and ducks in a backyard on a premises in Carmarthenshire in southwest Wales.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.819692926216334%2C-3.7996387998045975&hl=en&z=9&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.819692926216334%2C-3.7996387998045975&hl=en&z=9&mid=1aNOepBDPUd0zdRnQE1UbSW8djsk)
:(
Look how close it is to the wild dead duck - lets hope he wasnt following precautions (as that would mean that precautions would still keep most peoples birds safe)
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:-(
I've been holding out hope that it will be lifted soon but I think it's pretty unlikely now.
Anyone have any tips of something I can put on the ground in my chicken's run as it is getting muddy. I use wood shavings in the house.
And anything for geese as the polytunnel (weed proof fabric) is turning into a mud skating ring. Would straw be ok for them?
Dans
Try woodchip in both- if you can't get hold in bulk then you could use easibed but it would be expensive
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oh well, will just have to start buying eggs again - unless they come back into lay once they get used to the polytunnel :(
will chickens eat hay in lieu of grass I wonder...
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will chickens eat hay in lieu of grass I wonder...
I wouldn't give it to them, all those long strands may cause a crop problem the way long fresh grass can? Not certain but am just wary of it. :-\
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Dans, I would use straw in the tunnel as you can then compost it and dig it in. Have you thought of taking up the weed suppressing fabric while the geese are in there, so their droppings can fertilise the ground. They will eat any weeds that come through.
Mab I agree about not trying to feed hay to hens. They have no way to break up long strands. Mine are now about 2/3rds of the way through a giant cabbage, although they won't touch the sprouts and kale. Soon chickweed will start to grow and they love that.
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I'm a little terrified of them on the bare ground as it is really sticky clay. Areas where we have removed the weedproof fabric (the last people used it everywhere) are unpassavle at the moment. One quick walk through and your wellies triple in weight.
I'll give the straw a go for the geese, bought loads as seating for my daughter'started birthday as seating. I think I might use the shavings for the chickens as the run isn't huge and they have already dragged a lot of the contents of the house out there!
Thanks guys.
Dans
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Thanks for the warnings re: hay - I'd supposed they'd just pick the ends off like they would with long grass - but best to be safe.
Interesting that yours won't touch Kale FW - I had some delaware (or is it delaway? - can't remember) in the polytunnel that was rampant - 'til the hens went in ;D .
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Out of interest, which other mammals are deemed susceptible to Avian flu.?
Pigs or other mammals susceptible to Avian flu cannot be moved out of the Protection or Surveillance Zones.
Not sure which species this would include. :thinking:
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People. We all gotta stay put.
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To quote Defra, the protection order measures apply from 14.30 on 6 December 2016 until 14.30 on 6 January 2017.
Nearly there! :fc:
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I'll be very surprised if that isn't extended, Herdygirl. When the measures were put in place, we were talking about a potential risk to the UK. Now we have actual confirmed cases, it's considerably worse than that.
BTW, our hens are having great fun this morning with a whole cabbage, suspended from a very stretchy elastic band. So, just in case you're looking for an idea for keeping yourself your birds entertained..... ;D
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Womble, just been out and bought a big cabbage :-)
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I have found on facebook yesterday about Bird flu in Pontyberem, near Carmarthen. The flock was culled and l think tested positive for bird flu. Have never heard a thing from any agency or on the news about this which l think is disgusting. How are people to know about this if they don't have access to the internet and are not informed by DEFRA. I am registered with them and they have not emailed me or sent any information about this epidemic. Hope this does not extend the all clear.
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I have found on facebook yesterday about Bird flu in Pontyberem, near Carmarthen. The flock was culled and l think tested positive for bird flu. Have never heard a thing from any agency or on the news about this which l think is disgusting. How are people to know about this if they don't have access to the internet and are not informed by DEFRA. I am registered with them and they have not emailed me or sent any information about this epidemic. Hope this does not extend the all clear.
Which means that so far we only have the version of the media and not DEFRA.
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I've just registered for alerts on Bird flu so I know exactly when I can let my birds out.
http://animalhealth.system-message.co.uk/AH_subscribe_index.php (http://animalhealth.system-message.co.uk/AH_subscribe_index.php)
I registered at the start, only had 2 alerts, found out on here about the Merseyside outbreaks, nothing from Defra :(. Migratory birds probably pass here on their way there.
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The occurrence in the Welsh backyard flock is on the DEFRA site.
Look under 'latest'.
Have read on another site that Andrea Leadsom has said that the measures will be extended until end of February! Can't see much about this though.
Hope it's not true.
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Here in Wales the Carmarthenshire outbreak is all over the news although it doesn't really say much other than the birds were culled due to suspicions which were verified afterwards.
Pontyberem is not far from Llanelli where the wildfowl was discovered with it in Dec.
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Look at 'Farming UK'.
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Seen a post on a hen rescue FB page that restrictions have been extended to Feb
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Yes, though I've not seen official DEFRA news, Farming UK reports that Andrea Leadsom said to farmers it'll be extended until the end of February.
https://www.farminguk.com/news/OFC17-Poultry-housing-order-to-be-extended-until-end-of-February-due-to-bird-flu-risk_45233.html (https://www.farminguk.com/news/OFC17-Poultry-housing-order-to-be-extended-until-end-of-February-due-to-bird-flu-risk_45233.html)
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Yes, though I've not seen official DEFRA news, Farming UK reports that Andrea Leadsom said to farmers it'll be extended until the end of February.
Redefining normal, piece by piece.
Feels like they want to move towards "no birds allowed to be kept outdoors ever".
I think if I have to keep the geese indoors for another two months it'd be kinder to cull them.
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Official. Extended until 28th February. :'(
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Seen a post on a hen rescue FB page that restrictions have been extended to Feb
An Avian Influenza Prevention Zone that has been in place since 6 December will be extended until 28 February to help protect poultry and captive birds from avian flu, the Chief Veterinary Officer has announced
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I think if I have to keep the geese indoors for another two months it'd be kinder to cull them.
Why?
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Well, hens generally just walk about, scratch a bit, flap up on things, that sort of thing. They may not like being enclosed, but they can still express the majority of their natural behaviours.
Geese on the other hand, want to graze, swim, honk, run about trying to take off, etc etc. We put ours in the freezer at the start of the restrictions, and for us it was definitely the correct decision.
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I think if I have to keep the geese indoors for another two months it'd be kinder to cull them.
Remember the DEFRA advice regarding geese is rather different to chickens and ducks - " For farmed geese, gamebirds and other captive birds where housing is less practicable, keepers must take steps to keep them separate from wild birds." See:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575619/captive-birds-biosecurity-inside-prevention-zone.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575619/captive-birds-biosecurity-inside-prevention-zone.pdf)
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From the same paper -
There are certain species of bird – such as ostrich, captive wildfowl or geese, which are not normally housed – for which the housing steps outlined above may not be practicable. In such cases you should isolate their food and water from wild birds. Available feed and water will attract wild birds; by feeding and watering your birds under cover, the possibility of mingling is reduced. The steps you should take, where practical, include:
* Providing extra protection to feed and water stations to avoid attracting wild birds.
• Rotating feeding times. Many wild birds learn when captive birds are fed and congregate at these times.
• Preventing your birds from accessing open water that may be contaminated. Ensure that your birds receive only mains or treated water, or ensure that reservoirs or storage tanks are covered. Sealed nipple systems can be considered.
----
It was follow these guidelines or cull for me, mine are fed inside, water is in a deep bucket that wild birds cannot access.
I noticed there was someone else up the valley who had also decided this action.
My hens are inside of course.
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The thing I don't understand r.e this whole thing is people are openly saying they aren't shutting their chickens and ducks up, and why are geese not being ordered to be housed? Why are geese different to ducks- they are all succeptable to it at the end of the day? Is it because they are grazing animals ? I feel if avian flu is becoming prevalent and a serious risk to poultry and waterfowl then geese should be housed too .
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*sigh* well just been out and shovelled a bunch of goose poo and put straw down to try and keep them clean. It's not great for them and I don't know how they will manage laying in there. I guess I buy some straw bales and make them some private areas.
I wonder if I can pen off an area of grass outside and tarp it? They would have less space but at least they would have grass for a bit. But then they would eat it pretty quick and we would be back to square one. I'm starting to worry about them as they just don't seem to be eating much grain based food at all and there's nothing much else in there for them to eat.
Maybe I'll call defra for advice but I can't see how having them out I can keep them safe as birds will go to thier bath and water.
It is going to be a long 2 months.
Dans
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Dans - Have you weighed how much grain they are eating? With them being fairly inactive I reckon 100grams/bird/day is more than enough to sustain them even with no intake of grass.
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just to say-I've been giving my hens hay to play with in the winter for nearly a decade-they are also kept on a variety of long grass and forage. They have access to grit and I have never had any crop problems (and some of my hens are 7/8 years old now), same with my ducks.
my geese and ducks are in covered pens outside, a mix of bird netting, rubble netting and tarps. they both have refillable troughs and are doing fine with a mix of forage-their pellet rations are fed inside their housing. The duck pen is not *that* large for 7 muscovy and the floor is covered in pallets with some old rubber matting over the top. They seem quite happy really but apart from their twice daily flying laps they are quite sedate birds anyway. They also spend the first two months of their lives under netting. The have perches so they can still fly a little, swim, preen, gossip and mate.
The geese have been trickier but we seem to have cracked it-they have a bucket with greens and corn in user water, plus their trough. They love lettuce, spring greens, apples and peas. If their pen becomes muddy (and given this is Lanarkshire its been fairly dry) I will also provide them with pallets. Both are housed on the only place on my property that has any shelter from a SW wind-just hoping a big storm doesn't come in.
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Just had the text saying period will be extended. Better late than never I suppose.
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:-(
I've been holding out hope that it will be lifted soon but I think it's pretty unlikely now.
Anyone have any tips of something I can put on the ground in my chicken's run as it is getting muddy. I use wood shavings in the house.
And anything for geese as the polytunnel (weed proof fabric) is turning into a mud skating ring. Would straw be ok for them?
Dans
can you get hold of pallets to put down for them to stand on, could infill with straw
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Why not lift weed control fabric, fork the ground over, then put straw down. When it gets messy, just fork it in. Should improve the soil.
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I think if I have to keep the geese indoors for another two months it'd be kinder to cull them.
Why?
Much as others have said. They're not happy. The chickens are happy enough in their shed with lots of woodchip and straw to scratch around in. They'd probably rather be outside (except when it's raining) but I don't think they're suffering where they are.
The geese, however, would like to be out in the field, walking around, pulling stuff out of the sheep's wool and eating grass all day long.
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From the same paper -
There are certain species of bird – such as ostrich, captive wildfowl or geese, which are not normally housed – for which the housing steps outlined above may not be practicable.
[snip]
• Preventing your birds from accessing open water that may be contaminated. Ensure that your birds receive only mains or treated water, or ensure that reservoirs or storage tanks are covered. Sealed nipple systems can be considered.
Unfortunately it is practicable for me to house them, they just don't like it. Their evening wheat was always fed under water, but the field has open ditches.
Although frankly the grass is as likely to be contaminated as the ditches, and netting over runs seems unlikely to achieve much either, if we're really supposed to be practicing "biosecurity".
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Ah well, my geese will just have to have to stay in for another two months. :-( As the hay is going down I might move them to some space in the barn. One question I do have is were the birds recently fund to have the 'flu' being kept in? and if not, why not? and if they weren't, will the owners be penalised?
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Just seen an interview with Christianne Glossop on the news and it's still "under investigation".
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With regard to the domestic flock in Wales, it would be useful for all poultry keepers to have some idea of how those birds were being housed and if there is a suggested way that infection occurred. Many poultry keepers have responded to the DEFRA directive, but is it actually an effective way to protect our flocks from infection?
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Most of the cases found in wild birds have been waterfowl (apart from the Peregrine Falcon in Scotland). Does this mean smaller birds aren't as susceptible, or that when they die they're likely to be eaten by a fox, badger or carrion crows, whereas a larger bird is more likely to be spotted and picked up by a human, especially if it's floating on a lake somewhere? I have a resident flock of sparrows living in the barns - if I find a dead one I won't know why it died so it could be in the resident birds and I wouldn't know about it. It must be absolute hell for the folks with big commercial flocks that are normally free range.
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Most of the cases found in wild birds have been waterfowl (apart from the Peregrine Falcon in Scotland). Does this mean smaller birds aren't as susceptible, or that when they die they're likely to be eaten by a fox, badger or carrion crows, whereas a larger bird is more likely to be spotted and picked up by a human, especially if it's floating on a lake somewhere? I have a resident flock of sparrows living in the barns - if I find a dead one I won't know why it died so it could be in the resident birds and I wouldn't know about it. It must be absolute hell for the folks with big commercial flocks that are normally free range.
[/quote}
You are quite right Marches Farmer and I don't know. Maybe the fact wild ducks and geese gather around water in large numbers and contaminate the water with droppings make it easier for them to spread it around, I don't know. Probably all of us are encouraging our garden birds with feed anyway at this time of year.
There has always been this business of "if practicable" that fowl should be kept inside so I suspect lots of people will just say it wasn't. Now there isn't a choice but one wonders if in reality this will make any difference as wild birds will still be visiting and we haven't had heavy rains yet but when we do lots of these temporary enclosures will be more vulnerable. Encouraging better bio security might be more useful. How many people have disinfectant set up?
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I have a boot dip outside my chicken shed.
The main spread is through water so obviously waterfowl are most at risk and most likely to be the carriers that spread it elsewhere.
I have 4 semi-feral geese and 5 muscovey ducks who, I'm afraid, have to take their chances. When I feed, it's under cover and stand by to keep wild birds away, but like others here, the water is from a stream and I have no choice in that as there is no other water supply. I simply cannot humanely shut them in because of their location (on top of the moors in a very remote field) and semi-wild state. I will cull rather than shut them in, if I can catch them, but really hope it won't come to that.
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I got a bale of hay today and put it in the coop, hens love it which I'm surprised at, best £4.99 I've spent.
I'm also using horse treat nets, like hay nets but tiny, to hang veg in, they only cost £2.99 each so have a few round the pen so everyone can get some.
The middle section of the pen floor is bare earth so that gives them somewhere to scratch, have cobbled together some outdoor perches using plastic buckets as supports and a hentastic garlic fat peck block.
They seem quite happy.
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We have just had an email from our certification body saying....
'This is to inform you that the mandatory housing of poultry has been extended to the end of February, as below notice received from Defra today.'
Not good.
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Well at the very least my geese are happier. I'll try pulling up the weed proof fabric at the top end of tunnel and putting straw there. It's the only area not covered with straw at the moment.
Dans
I know it's netting they are under rather than tarp/plastic but it's butterfly proof netting and the best we have :-/
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Looks rather nice in there, really :thumbsup:
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I know it's netting they are under rather than tarp/plastic but it's butterfly proof netting and the best we have :-/
I guess if you hose any wild bird poo off from inside with a bit of pressure behind it it should do the trick.
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Ihave cobbled together some outdoor perches using plastic buckets as supports
Breeze blocks on their sides, with a half-round paddock rail wedged in the top space at an angle, make sturdy perch supports at the right height.
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Four happy geese Dans :thumbsup:
Is it OK to feed geese broad, runner and french bean seeds and sweetcorn which are out of date for planting? They would soak in their water bucket? Or would they need to be boiled for 10 mins as for humans?
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Oh no predictably there has been an extension to the end of February, my poor chookies - so I think I'll be making lots of chicken soup and stock over the weekend :'(
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Chief Veterinary Officer Nigel Gibbens said:
'The Prevention Zone means anyone who keeps poultry such as chickens, ducks and geese, even as pets, must take action to stop them coming into contact with wild birds to protect them from avian flu.
Birds should be moved into a suitable building, or if that isn’t possible owners must take sensible precautions to keep them away from wild birds, like putting up netting to create a temporary enclosure and keeping food and water supplies inside where they cannot be contaminated by wild birds.
Even when birds are kept indoors a risk of infection remains so keepers must also practice good biosecurity, for example by disinfecting footwear and equipment and washing clothing after contact with birds'.
I also have distinfectant at the gate of my farm, no one is allowed in. I have an inspection due next week (usual 5 year thing) and he won't be allowed in if he hasn't brought his wellies.
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What do you use in yout footdip please Herdygirl?
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What do you use in yout footdip please Herdygirl?
A lot of disinfectant once it has been used a couple of times and starts becoming dirty doesn't work as well. This one works continues to work even when dirty. Bio Shield from a company called bio link ltd in Yorkshire.
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What do you use in yout footdip please Herdygirl?
Virkon S or Sorgene 5 are both Defra approved disinfectants- we use Sorgene 5 on the farm.
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A lot of disinfectant once it has been used a couple of times and starts becoming dirty doesn't work as well. This one works continues to work even when dirty. Bio Shield from a company called bio link ltd in Yorkshire.
Yes, but I wish the manufacturers/suppliers would be a bit more specific about what their high tolerance to organic matter really means in terms of kgs of mud per litre of disinfectant. I have found a paper on the subject but the full thing is on a paid subscription:-
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.1983.tb02613.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.1983.tb02613.x/full)
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I use bleach.
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Thanks folks. I already use Virkon for the trailer, so thats easy!
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I found some disinfectant in the back of the shed that says it's approved by MAFF for the control of various diseases including fowl pest. It didn't mention H5N8 though ;).
I wonder how long it's been there!? :roflanim:
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We keep some of our stock on a field where we don't have foot dip that is covered, uncovered it'll just get full of rainwater and worse: the birds and other animals would have access and I don't want any accidents :o
So we resort to cleaning our boots really well under the tap like we've always done, making sure all the mud is cleaned off, but in addition we now spray them with Virkon S, we keep a spray bottle with the solution in the boot of the car where it lasts well over a week before losing its disinfecting quality.
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DEFRAS page re avian flu appears to have been updated.
There is an advice leaflet for keepers of backyard flocks, a map showing protection zones and more.
Still so many hens free ranging in this part of Wales. A neighbour was commenting on the unfairness of this today. Her small flock are in lockdown, as well.
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DEFRAS page re avian flu appears to have been updated.
There is an advice leaflet for keepers of backyard flocks, a map showing protection zones and more.
Still so many hens free ranging in this part of Wales. A neighbour was commenting on the unfairness of this today. Her small flock are in lockdown, as well.
Link please
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Sorry, not mastered links yet.
Just go to defeat page and look at latest.
Now confirmed in backyard flock in Yorkshire!
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https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
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I'm using Jeyes fluid. It even mentions Avian Flu on the tin.
As a bonus, it smells great.
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Bird flu confirmed in North Yorkshire :-(
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Backyard flock, chickens and ducks. Settle
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Backyard flock, chickens and ducks. Settle
I wish they would tell you how these birds were kept.
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Yes, would be useful to know whether or not these affected flocks were housed.
Both backyard outbreaks state 'chickens and ducks'. Wonder if ducks caught it and passed on to the chickens. Seems that waterbirds are more susceptible.
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I suppose ducks dabble in anything, hens and geese are more fastidious, I've noticed if feed lands on poultry dung H&G don't eat it .
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I have to admit I got out my virkon tub to make up a foot bath and got scared by all the warnings on it and lack of instructions.
I hadn't thought of covering the foot bath to keep the cats clear of it. Will get that set up first thing tomorrow.
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] I've no idea about feeding out of date seeds. The worrier in me would worry if they have been preserved at all with anything. I give all the goose food in water though.
Dans
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What do you use in yout footdip please Herdygirl?
Sorry Davidand Collette for late reply - am using jeyes fluid - I change it every day
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What do you use in yout footdip please Herdygirl?
Sorry Davidand Collette for late reply - am using jeyes fluid - I change it every day
I am using Sorgene and I must admit it's scary stuff I put it in big buckets with lids, it's a bit of a pain as its really hard to get the lids off them but I have free ranging pygmys.
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Yes, would be useful to know whether or not these affected flocks were housed.
The film that accompanied the announcement about the outbreak in Carmarthenshire showed vans pulling into the drive in front of a sizeable stone farmhouse-type property with the big, new Keep Out gates generally put in by folks who have just moved to the countryside because they no longer want to live in a city.
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I read somewhere (but can't find it now ::)) about a DEFRA approved disinfectant that can be diluted and stay fresh for quite a long time in a spray bottle.
Anyone know what it is likely to be?
Would it be sufficient to spray the bottom of wellies before entering the chicken run? Reluctant to use footbath as I can't think of a way of keeping sheep and cats out of it.
Not sure how far to go in terms of bio security, especially seeing that most chickens around here are still out and about. And guessing the dogs and cats could carry the virus back here on their paws anyway. We are surrounded by thousands of pheasants so there is a wonderful viral pool potentially.
Any thoughts?
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I have to admit I got out my virkon tub to make up a foot bath and got scared by all the warnings on it and lack of instructions.
I hadn't thought of covering the foot bath to keep the cats clear of it. Will get that set up first thing tomorrow.
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] I've no idea about feeding out of date seeds. The worrier in me would worry if they have been preserved at all with anything. I give all the goose food in water though.
Dans
Thanks Dans :wave: All seeds are organic untreated so OK for chemicals. It's too late anyway because they've eaten them :hungry: They were very excited, so I'll try split peas too.
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I know this is American, but I doubt the virus cares and it may be helpful. Mild bleach solution won't harm cats etc.
https://poultry.usu.edu/files/036_AG_Poultry_2015-01pr.pdf
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Backyard flock, chickens and ducks. Settle
I wish they would tell you how these birds were kept.
why out of interest? Housing birds isn't ever going to be failsafe, its about minimising risk.
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I wish they would tell you how these birds were kept.
[/quote]
why out of interest? Housing birds isn't ever going to be failsafe, its about minimising risk.
[/quote]
But it would be interesting to know if they WERE inside? Would the owner admit they were out anyway?
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Still so many hens free ranging in this part of Wales.
Well, the publicity has not exactly been high-profile. I had a visitor last week from the Deep South and he has a few back-yard hens and knew nothing about the housing requirement. OK, he is a busy bloke so perhaps he is less likely than others to catch the news but given that the BBC website is only putting the H5N8 news items on the associated regional pages such as England/Lincolnshire or Wales/South West Wales you need to already know the news before you can find anything. And when I emailed them about this it bounced with a recipient in-box full error.
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BBC radio Leicester first mentioned bird flu... yesterday!
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I have just heard about an outbreak of flu in Yorkshire. Also been told about the outbreak in Carmarthenshire , the flock was free ranging and not contained. Don't know if this is true.
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I have just heard about an outbreak of flu in Yorkshire. Also been told about the outbreak in Carmarthenshire , the flock was free ranging and not contained. Don't know if this is true.
According to social media the Welsh flock didn't have bird flu but the owner had found a dead bird close to where her flock were still free rangin. Now before anyone jumps down my throat I am simply repeating Facebook gossip ;D
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But it would be interesting to know if they WERE inside? Would the owner admit they were out anyway?
why though? if they were in would you decide to then chuck your birds back out? If they were out how would you feel and what would you do?
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But it would be interesting to know if they WERE inside? Would the owner admit they were out anyway?
why though? if they were in would you decide to then chuck your birds back out? If they were out how would you feel and what would you do?
From my point of view I think it would be interesting to see how effective the measures being taken are, my birds are in and in they will stay until I am told otherwise
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I agree. Are these restrictions or lack of following restrictions influencing the spread significantly?
I'd also be interested to know what sort of contact or fly-past the affected places had in terms of wild birds. Are there many wild ducks in these areas for example.
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In a news interview when the first case broke the chief vet officer apparently said" they did not expect keepers of backyard hens to lock them in but they were advised to keep feed and water undercover/inside." So I don't think it is surprising people haven't housed their stock. The first Order said to house and if not practicable keep away from wild birds. Did it say separate chickens and ducks? And what's the point if one bird gets it then they are all culled.
If this was schmallenberg it would be totally unrealistic to bring all the livestock in.
There is no guarantee that housing your birds means they wont get it.
There must be serious welfare issues in some free range units now.
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They still sell "free range" eggs in supermarkets...
My friend buys free range eggs from a farm every weekend and says their hens are still free ranging on the roadside!
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They still sell "free range" eggs in supermarkets...
Perfectly legal. Only after the birds have been locked in for more than 12 weeks are they no longer considered free range birds. Hence why the order at the moment runs until 28 February.
My friend buys free range eggs from a farm every weekend and says their hens are still free ranging on the roadside!
Has your friend actually seen those hens free ranging? If so, the seller needs to be reported to the authorities instead of supported by sales.
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Yes he actually saw the hens walking around.
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I have seen adds on facebook for free range chickens for sale. Can they still be sold ?
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Free range birds can be housed for 12 weeks under an order like the one we currently have and keep thier free range status. If it goes over 12 weeks they can't be called free range. The 28th Feb (when we can let our birds out as things currently stand) will be 12 weeks from when the order was first put in place. I am hoping that they won't extend it further because of the possible impact on the industry.
Dans
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I agree. Are these restrictions or lack of following restrictions influencing the spread significantly?
I'd also be interested to know what sort of contact or fly-past the affected places had in terms of wild birds. Are there many wild ducks in these areas for example.
As far as the spread through the wild birds is concerned I think we can, at best, have only a marginal effect. If you add up the number of wild birds in the known vulnerable species - swans, geese, ducks, gulls and birds of prey you come up with a figure of 3.5 million such birds in the UK during the winter of which, for example 450,000 Wigeon (which seem to be particularly vulnerable) have migrated from Russia, Scandinavia, and Iceland. To put that 3.5 million into context that would be one bird every 250 metres (or about 20 seconds flying time) over the whole country if they were uniformly distributed.
Interestingly, it seems the UN FAO are totally schizophrenic about the role of wild birds in the spread of the disease. Here, in November, on a FAO web page:-
http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/programmes/en/empres/news_031116b.html (http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/programmes/en/empres/news_031116b.html)
They say “The role of wild birds in the long distance movement of these viruses is now incontrovertible. ”
While in December, the FAO, this time as part of the “Scientific Task Force on Avian Influenza and Wild Birds ” here:-
http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf (http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf)
say “The specific role of wild birds particularly in the long-distance transmission of the virus, if existent, remains unclear. ”
So that's cleared that up hasn't it?
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according to the jungle grapevine that is Facebook, and a screen grab of another post, the birds in Settle were not housed. The screen grab could be faked but the poster reckons APHA told them they were still free ranging, culled immediately and that the owners are facing legal action. I guess if anyone cares enough, they could phone APHA tomorrow and ask.
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the owners are facing legal action.
Time will tell but my guess, for several reasons, is not. Free-range is the acceptable face of poultry farming and with this:-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/apr/03/birdflu.food (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/apr/03/birdflu.food)
as a contrasting back-story, it would be a gift to the tabloids on a slow news week - “Poor free-range farmer prosecuted because his flock was given bird flu by wild duck but BM got paid 600 grand of tax-payers money for bringing virus in by the truck-load” or some such rubbish.
And then there is the wiggle-room in the regulations:-
“... Any person in charge of poultry... must take all appropriate and practicable steps to ensure... poultry are housed or otherwise kept separate from wild birds. “
Plenty enough for a half-decent barrister methinks - “M'lud, I understand m'client, lacking a place to house his free-range birds erected numerous scare-crows that, unfortunately, blew away in the recent gales...” :innocent:
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DEFRA factsheet, hope this helps!
Just been discussing a possible bird flu webinar, the "bird flu information please" thread.
Opinions? would you be interested?
Caroline
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If the owners are fined/imprisoned, what message does that send to other poultry keepers who suspect their birds may be infected?
Probably,
"keep schtum."!
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Just saw this link on twitter, possibly old informatuion though
https://twitter.com/DefraGovUK/status/817472067125657600
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Not on DEFRAs page yet but hearing that case confirmed at Abbotsbury swannery, with 9 dead swans testing positive.
Anyone heard anything of this?
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If the owners are fined/imprisoned, what message does that send to other poultry keepers who suspect their birds may be infected?
Probably,
"keep schtum."!
No, these people let theirs free range despite the ban so the message a fine would convey is "comply with the order and keep the birds in!"
But it has to be recognised that Defra's communication about the ban has been appallingly bad. All local papers etc should be spreading the word, local police should inform any owners of birds they see free ranging, and fine them if they defy the ban again. It's been going on for long enough, now, no more excuses. After all, if your neighbour takes the risk that could spell death for your birds!
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Anyone heard anything of this?
It's in the list here:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/581937/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/581937/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview)
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"comply with the order and keep the birds in!"
But, as I have pointed out, that is not what the order says.
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Thanks ColinS.
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"comply with the order and keep the birds in!"
But, as I have pointed out, that is not what the order says.
That doesn't mean that everyone has done as much as they can. A quick read on forums etc still reveals plenty of people who can't be bothered to comply and do the basics, not because they can't but because they don't feel like it.
It's easy to establish if they genuinely can't keep their birds in, and where they simply don't bother they should not be allowed to get away with it. They put others at risk.
End of rant... ;)
More news on the swans:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/09/bird-flu-outbreak-avian-influenza-h5n8-virus-abbotsbury-swannery-dorset (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/09/bird-flu-outbreak-avian-influenza-h5n8-virus-abbotsbury-swannery-dorset)
Wish Defra would organise a Q&A session for the public with someone who actually specialises in this disease.
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I agree with you Eve, it's arrogant,lazy and unfair on others.
Some people only now complying with mention of fine.
But defra have not helped with mixed messages, lack of info and very slow updates.
Case in Devon now :(
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Wish Defra would organise a Q&A session for the public with someone who actually specialises in this disease.
As I pointed out with an example in post#399 on this thread the experts don't even seem to be able to agree with themselves never mind each other.
Of course only an old cynic would suggest DEFRA's declaration of the Prevention Zone was motivated as much by finance as spread prevention but it is interesting to see "You may be entitled to compensation if your poultry are killed under orders from government or APHA in the event of a disease outbreak. Owners are not entitled to compensation following the declaration of the Prevention Zone."
See:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
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Has anyone watched this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBp1AsGJHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBp1AsGJHM)
No suggestion of covering runs with tarpaulins etc! :-\
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Has anyone watched this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBp1AsGJHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBp1AsGJHM)
No suggestion of covering runs with tarpaulins etc! :-\
Yep,usual government wishy washy crud. Love the free from dirt, on a small holding would be a miracle.
No wonder people don't know what to do. :roflanim:
Being cynical first order issued after most of the turkeys were culled for Christmas
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As various stains of the avian flu virus have been around for years I am beginning to think that maybe they should be allowed to take their course. As we are seeing amongst the wild bird population there aren't a great deal of deaths (those bodies that have been found) wouldn't it be better if we allowed our domestic birds the chance to build up some immunity?
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My thought exactly. Often these viruses become less troublesome if they do run their course.
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As various stains of the avian flu virus have been around for years I am beginning to think that maybe they should be allowed to take their course. As we are seeing amongst the wild bird population there aren't a great deal of deaths (those bodies that have been found) wouldn't it be better if we allowed our domestic birds the chance to build up some immunity?
Apparently the influenza virus follows a pattern. For one or two years it will kill a lot of birds or people, then it becomes decreasingly virulent over a few years. The next severe strain to emerge will be mutated, so resistance built up to one strain will not give resistance to new ones.
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Here is a fascinating article about human flu immunity and the previous strains of flu one has been exposed to - interesting cross-linking of the different H numbers:-
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/276060.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/276060.php)
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We mostly breed rare breed L/F for conservation purposes. Some of our birds are the fifth generation of a highly selective breeding programme to maintain high health, longevity and robustness. Last year we appeared to have been the most successful breeder of Narragansett turkeys in the country. We therefore have the strongest possible objection to people who take a can't-be-bothered attitude, because they're taking a risk with our flock too.
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I would like an explanation of why DEFRA are so little interested in the “other species” as in :- “... if ... the general public find dead wild waterfowl (swans, geese or ducks) or gulls, or five or more dead wild birds of other species in the same location, they should report them ”
Well, all 15 million blackbirds in the UK could die over the course of a week and I doubt you would find 5 or more dead in “one location”. So do DEFRA know (or have good reason to believe) that such species are not prone to the virus or do thay not want the expense of checking on loads of dead dickies sent in by Joe Public, or what???
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Just saying yesterday, how many LBJ's die without us knowing? Not feeling well, sit hunched under a tuft of grass / shrubby stuff and just die there.
Don't have many wild birds round here, but now watching / monitoring them on bird feeder.
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We're surrounded by pheasant shoots here, they are constantly in my garden, it seems rather pointless to me , keeping my hens in, to prevent further spread of disease, when they are still wandering everywhere.
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We're surrounded by pheasant shoots here, they are constantly in my garden, it seems rather pointless to me , keeping my hens in, to prevent further spread of disease, when they are still wandering everywhere.
Isn't this the crux of the problem? You can lock your birds in but there are millions of birds out there coming to you and all you can do is disinfect every time you go in and out of your chickens.
I would like an explanation of why DEFRA are so little interested in the “other species” as in :- “... if ... the general public find dead wild waterfowl (swans, geese or ducks) or gulls, or five or more dead wild birds of other species in the same location, they should report them ”
Well, all 15 million blackbirds in the UK could die over the course of a week and I doubt you would find 5 or more dead in “one location”. So do DEFRA know (or have good reason to believe) that such species are not prone to the virus or do thay not want the expense of checking on loads of dead dickies sent in by Joe Public, or what???
They are targeting the main carriers because whilst they are wasting time testing every dead bird that someone finds they would be taking their eye off the key players. I am sure they get calls about all species.
Their main objective is to stop the major cull of large numbers of commercial flocks which they pay compensation for. Those birds who die of disease because they have been kept inside for weeks in less than ideal conditions because people are doing their best with what they have wont be compensated.
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Their main objective is to stop the major cull of large numbers of commercial flocks which they pay compensation for.
You obviously missed my earlier post on this:-
"Owners are not entitled to compensation following the declaration of the Prevention Zone."
See:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
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[Those birds who die of disease because they have been kept inside for weeks in less than ideal conditions because people are doing their best with what they have
That's just nonsense. Less than ideal does not mean certain disease and death!!
The order has been in place for many weeks, no more excuses for not taking the necessary steps, building extra runs etc.
Anyone who honestly didn't have another option in order to comply with the order[/size] [/size]than to keep their birds in such condition that they die of diseases within weeks should have found them another home or dealth with them.
[/font]
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Their main objective is to stop the major cull of large numbers of commercial flocks which they pay compensation for.
You obviously missed my earlier post on this:-
"Owners are not entitled to compensation following the declaration of the Prevention Zone."
See:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
What this means is that any extra costs associated with the implementation of the requirements of the prevention zone e.g. feed, bedding and materials will not be compensated. It does not mean that there would not be compensation for animals culled.
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They are targeting the main carriers because whilst they are wasting time testing every dead bird that someone finds they would be taking their eye off the key players. I am sure they get calls about all species.
Actually DEFRA aren't doing the surveying at all - they are relying on 5 voluntary organisations to do the patrols and 90% of these patrols (136 out of 151 in the report linked below) are conducted by the Wildlife and Wetlands Trust - small wonder then that it is wetland species that appear to be the "main carriers" see:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/573761/pub-survrep-w0316.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/573761/pub-survrep-w0316.pdf)
While they may get calls about other species I doubt any of those callers can reach the threshold of 5 dead birds needed to trigger an investigation. So, as a piece of science their survey as far as the 'other species' is concerned is a complete piece of rubbish.
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We are in the same position Celli.
If, god forbid, we are at any point placed in a protection zone, I think they are not allowed to release game birds.
Now that would cause some trouble, me thinks! :stir:
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I am getting really stressed and frustrated with this. My girls are in their (reasonable size) pens. Food and water in the coops. The duck farm up the way started burning lots of stuff off just after this was announced. As a result i now have loads of rats. I know that if i put the girls in th polytunnel the rats will be digging in overnight even if i put all the feed away. They will shortly be followed by the foxes who have been neutered by the RSPCA and released in our area. Can you imagine the carnage? We also have numerous shoots in the area and are surrounded by game. Finally we are close to the river and the whole area (known as the Isle of Axholme) is criscrossed by dykes and drain that support water birds. Roll on March
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[Those birds who die of disease because they have been kept inside for weeks in less than ideal conditions because people are doing their best with what they have
That's just nonsense. Less than ideal does not mean certain disease and death!!
The order has been in place for many weeks, no more excuses for not taking the necessary steps, building extra runs etc.
Anyone who honestly didn't have another option in order to comply with the orderthan to keep their birds in such condition that they die of diseases within weeks should have found them another home or dealth with them.
I don't know why you feel the need to be so aggressive.
Most people who have chickens and ducks keep them reasonably free ranging and house overnight. They are not set up to house continually for days on end. I am not suggesting anyone should keep their birds in such a way that they die of disease but I think ventilation will be a major problem for a lot of chicken houses and clearly people are having problems. That is not a judgement on whether people are complying or not.
Housing in small spaces spreads disease in all animals and that is a fact. So, yes I am sure some people will have to make some hard decisions.
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[Those birds who die of disease because they have been kept inside for weeks in less than ideal conditions because people are doing their best with what they have
That's just nonsense. Less than ideal does not mean certain disease and death!!
The order has been in place for many weeks, no more excuses for not taking the necessary steps, building extra runs etc.
Anyone who honestly didn't have another option in order to comply with the orderthan to keep their birds in such condition that they die of diseases within weeks should have found them another home or dealth with them.
I don't know why you feel the need to be so aggressive.
Most people who have chickens and ducks keep them reasonably free ranging and house overnight. They are not set up to house continually for days on end. I am not suggesting anyone should keep their birds in such a way that they die of disease but I think ventilation will be a major problem for a lot of chicken houses and clearly people are having problems. That is not a judgement on whether people are complying or not.
Housing in small spaces spreads disease in all animals and that is a fact. So, yes I am sure some people will have to make some hard decisions.
Must be some sort of record- 29 pages of a thread till it turns a bit tetchy :coat: :coat:
I haven't said anything but have followed everyone's trials and tribulations and opinions with my usual fascination.
Bottom line, its a pain in the bum. its inconvenient, its annoying and its made even more annoying by regular sightings of larger farm based flocks still out all over the place.
and no it isn't income threatening to us, and no I haven't dobbed anyone in, I just like to whinge, and it will end in a few weeks and we didn't all get wiped out, and nor did our hens, and we didnt experience the Armageddon that was threatened- just like swine flu, and previous bird flus and lots of other crisis that never ultimately come to a massive amount.
but we're good citizens and do what we're told, despite not having much faith that its gonna make a jot of difference in the whole scheme of things- and its just defra having to do something however pointless it might actually be
but TAS for me is lots of things, and one of them is a place to moan
its cost us money. and its miserable and my OH cried with cold the soaking wet day we spent putting all the netting up. and our newly arrived bats (2 days before the prevention zone- wish we'd seen it coming) spent 18 months in misery and now we've "rescued" them for something not a whole lot better. our chooks spend much of the winter out in the veg patch clearing up the slugs and nastys but instead are confined to the same piece of muddy ground being thrown lettuces and other greenery to try to appease them- they've started pecking each other so plenty of feather pecking spray being squirted-
so yes its rubbish and we are worried about our precious girls- but we're doing our best and we do know its only our hobby and not that important- but it is to us
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Hi everyone don't all jump on me but I had not heard about the bird flu and about keeping poultry in until last night about a month ago I heard a headline on the news and thought not again I have hens ducks geese and 3 rhea I can put runs on my sheds that's my job in the morning but what are you to do about the rheas they have never been housed you are supposed to feed them without birds getting at there feed and water but how.
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I don't know why you feel the need to be so aggressive.
There's nothing agressive about simply stating that what you wrote is nonsense. You just don't like hearing it, tough.
Case closed for me.
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Hi everyone don't all jump on me but I had not heard about the bird flu and about keeping poultry in until last night about a month ago I heard a headline on the news and thought not again I have hens ducks geese and 3 rhea I can put runs on my sheds that's my job in the morning but what are you to do about the rheas they have never been housed you are supposed to feed them without birds getting at there feed and water but how.
Larrylamb, I bet loads of people haven't heard of it, that's one of our issues with Defra - their communication has been appalling. So we won't jump on you ;)
I don't know anything about rhea, how are they usually fed - do they graze or do you feed them out of a bucket? Can you put something up with a few pallets and a simple cover and put water troughs under there? Do they have a shelter you could feed them in? The main thing is to stop bird droppings falling in their water and feed.
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My rheas feed from a container on a hen house so they don't have to bend down they are fed pellets the water is in a bucket a open bucket they never use shelter they are out 24 7 in all weather
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My rheas feed from a container on a hen house so they don't have to bend down they are fed pellets the water is in a bucket a open bucket they never use shelter they are out 24 7 in all weather
A couple of pages back there is a link to the DEFRA fact sheet.
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I don't know why you feel the need to be so aggressive.
There's nothing agressive about simply stating that what you wrote is nonsense. You just don't like hearing it, tough.
Case closed for me.
It may be nonsense to you but not to people with commercial free range flocks. You only have to follow the threads on here to see what problems people are having with just a few birds to house 24/7. Multiply that several times over and I think you'll find the solutions are not quite as easy as adding a few old pallets and a bit of tarp to the end of a building.
I didn't say that less than ideal conditions will result in certain disease or death but it certainly will make disease control more difficult and miserable poultry or any animal for that matter are more susceptible to stress and disease.
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If you can only keep your birds in such condition that within weeks they die like harmony claims you should have culled them beforehand
Anyone who decided to keep chickens on a commercial scale should have done their research before starting up and been prepared for what-if scenarios
They've all heard of bird flu, it comes around often enough
It's all part of deciding on your set-up when you start your business
I don't accept that for many people who keep only a few birds this situation is so difficult to manage
Where there's a will there's a way
I don't normally post on forums but the unwillingness of some to protect our birds is astonishing
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We must have had stronger winds than anticipated last night, just got up to a bashed in pen, one side was lifted up about a foot, some of the couplings have come undone and the door doesn't shut properly, this is a heavy 12ft long pen .
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Oh dear. Is it repair-able?
Just read on the BBC website that somewhere in Scotland there were gusts of 129mph recorded early this morning. :o
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Oh dear. Is it repair-able?
Just read on the BBC website that somewhere in Scotland there were gusts of 129mph recorded early this morning. :o
We must have had them, I've still no idea how some of the joints came undon, most are screwed down onto slabs, it honestly looks like a giant has gone in and heaved it all up at one side.
It's one of those tubular steel jobs, the tarp on the top is what's causing the problem, it's made it into a sailing boat.
It's still together though, trying to get it back on the ground in my jimjams and crocs in the pitch dark isn't something I fancy repeating ????.
Have managed to get the door closed and it's held shut with a boulder, If the whole thing collapses the hens will be safe in the coop, thankfully it's an old fashioned heavy thing, Im more worried if it goes during the day and the hens are out in it.
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We're surrounded by pheasant shoots here, they are constantly in my garden, it seems rather pointless to me , keeping my hens in, to prevent further spread of disease, when they are still wandering everywhere.
The escapees from the shoots here have, over the years, established a fairly large wild (feral?) colony so not much we can do but keep checking that they are all still healthy. So far, thankfully, they are which is more than can be said for the humans ;D
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We must have had stronger winds than anticipated last night, just got up to a bashed in pen, one side was lifted up about a foot, some of the couplings have come undone and the door doesn't shut properly, this is a heavy 12ft long pen .
I think there will be several people doing running repairs this morning. With more gales forecast I think it will test quite a few DIY'ers out there. There is also the possibility of snow so check any tarp covers will stand the extra weight.
I wonder how many chucks are thinking freedom might just be a strong gust away. :thinking:
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I wonder how many chucks are thinking freedom might just be a strong gust away. :thinking:
;D
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I wonder how many chucks are thinking freedom might just be a strong gust away. :thinking:
Lol, I did say to them " your in luck girls, you may be out quicker than I thought "
Man wench is going to try to get home early and put more screws in to keep it anchored, and I'll be keeping a close watch on the snow with a broom at the ready to push it off should we get a lot.
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Bernoulli's equation (helpfully or otherwise) gives us:-
Windspeed Wind pressure
50mph 30kgf/sq.m
60mph 43kgf/sq.m
70mph 59kgf/sq.m
80mph 77kgf/sq.m
:coat:
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I wonder how many chucks are thinking freedom might just be a strong gust away. :thinking:
Lol, I did say to them " your in luck girls, you may be out quicker than I thought "
Man wench is going to try to get home early and put more screws in to keep it anchored, and I'll be keeping a close watch on the snow with a broom at the ready to push it off should we get a lot.
Not in your jimjams and crocs though!
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I wonder how many chucks are thinking freedom might just be a strong gust away. :thinking:
Lol, I did say to them " your in luck girls, you may be out quicker than I thought "
Man wench is going to try to get home early and put more screws in to keep it anchored, and I'll be keeping a close watch on the snow with a broom at the ready to push it off should we get a lot.
Not in your jimjams and crocs though!
Knowing my luck, yes lol.
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The 129mph gusts were on Cairngorm. Don't think anyone keeps hens up there.
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The 129mph gusts were on Cairngorm. Don't think anyone keeps hens up there.
That would be "bird flew" rather than "bird flu"!
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That wind stripped the felt off two houses and the kitchen roof. I know which is getting fixed first.
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I hope everyone managed to retrieve their temporary bird-shelters from down-wind yesterday. So for today I thought this might be a useful and fun link:-
http://www.buildingsguide.com/calculators/structural/ASCE705S/ (http://www.buildingsguide.com/calculators/structural/ASCE705S/)
:excited:
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I hope everyone managed to retrieve their temporary bird-shelters from down-wind yesterday. So for today I thought this might be a useful and fun link:-
http://www.buildingsguide.com/calculators/structural/ASCE705S/ (http://www.buildingsguide.com/calculators/structural/ASCE705S/)
:excited:
Now have you got a couple of days spare to explain all that LOL. ;D
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Here's a funny thing, my four year old great nephew was here this morning, he was in the garden and came running in to tell me he had helpfully opened up the chickens pen !.
Cue me belting up the garden, not one hen had stepped outside, I don't think they'd even noticed the door was wide open .
Pen has survived the weather btw, thanks to the man wench screwing it into paving slabs in the pitch dark.
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Pen has survived the weather btw, thanks to the man wench screwing it into paving slabs in the pitch dark.
In his jimjams and crocs? ;)
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Hello,
Just in case some people are following this thread only, and have missed it, I've posted a thread advertising a free talk on bird flu and flock welfare this Saturday here.
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=81847.0 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=81847.0)
(if the link doesn't work, it's a thread in the poultry section called free talk on bird flu and flock welfare available).
It's a talk by Scotland's Rural College/ SAC Consulting Vets, if you are interested in getting more tips and information during this stressful time for you and your flock.
NB we are not an organisation which put the prevention zone in place, and we are not involved in enforcing the regulations, so this talk and Q and A session will not be a forum for discussions of policy or registering complaints; but, as disease, livestock farming and smallholding specialists we can give you good quality information about bird flu and what the prevention zone means, where to find reliable, clear information and how to look after your flock's health and welfare during the period of the prevention order.
Hope this helps,
Caroline
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In his jimjams and crocs? ;)
God no, the human brain isn't equipped to cope with that particular sight ????
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Bird flu found in my home county of Galway, west of Ireland in a wild duck.
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I suspect bird flu has always been around but it's only now, with diagnostic capabilities and the possibility of huge commercial losses from huge commercial flocks, that it's come to anyone's attention. I saw an advertisement in Farmers Guardian this week for a manager for a new 480,000 broiler unit.
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Anyone else struggling with the state of the enclosure? I really don't know how I nor the birds will cope with hygiene issues for another 6 weeks. I've never had to deal with so much poop on a daily basis - and that's only the houses! I can't flush the ground as the water has nowhere to go and it's already a muddy poop puddle thanks to the ducks...just wanna cry
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I'm with you on that.
I'm struggling looking at mine, can't stand seeing such a mess.
I've been putting a deep layer of sawdust / wood chippings down in the run.
It turns into mud after about 3 - 4 weeks so I scrape it off and re apply.
Going through a lot though.
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I'm with you on that.
I'm struggling looking at mine, can't stand seeing such a mess.
I've been putting a deep layer of sawdust / wood chippings down in the run.
It turns into mud after about 3 - 4 weeks so I scrape it off and re apply.
Going through a lot though.
Thanks, will try that. Can't imagine lasting more than a day with the ducks, though, but I like the scraping it offf idea..
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I know it would still need scraping, but would it be possible to put some pallets (or a frame) down and cover with a strong windbreak mesh? They may still get a bit messy but most of the liquid would drain thru?
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I know it would still need scraping, but would it be possible to put some pallets (or a frame) down and cover with a strong windbreak mesh? They may still get a bit messy but most of the liquid would drain thru?
Duckboards in the WW1 trenches were basically pallets and seem to have been pretty handy at making life more tolerable. I have found straw on top of pallets lasts a reasonable time as, although it gets pooped on, at least it's keeping drier and not getting mixed into the mud.
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I only have a few hens but seed wood chippings/ sawdust on the floor is very sucessful at keeing things bearable. Only 6 more weeks eh!
On the positive side. Having groaned at our last summer corgette we stored so many overgrown courgettes at the end of the summer. Not only have we eaten our fill of stuffed marrow but the hens get a whole day of entertainment eating one. I am going to overplant this year just to store winter marrows for the hens.
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That would read DEEP wood chippings if I did not have such fat fingers.
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We threw down a thin layer of indoor bedding last week, Fresh Bed it's called. The chickens got very excited and had a good old scratch around in it. It's starting to get a bit dirty now with all the wet the weather and poop so I'm going to top it up tomorrow. It actually went a lot further than I expected so fingers crossed it doesn't end up costing me an arm and a leg.
The winds took down the tarp we'd been using across the entrance to the goose polytunnel so we fitted some old doors to it yesterday. Unfortunately I saw a sparrow in there this morning. It went out under the bottom of the polytunnel, the covering doesn't reach the ground in everyspot, the gap is just about enough for a song bird. Not sure what I can do about that. Hubby keeps reminding me that it's a lot less contact with wild birds than if the geese were outside but one bird is all it takes. Feels a bit like if the sparrow is still getting in then I may as well let them out and have some grass.
As Ghdp said, only 6 more weeks!
Dans
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Can you pile up soil around the bottom of the tunnel? That's enough to block sparrow sized access points. If not soil then anything else such as old hessian sacks, straw.
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Unfortunately I saw a sparrow in there this morning.
I know it sounds daft but, if you have the room I think feeding the wild birds in one area away from your pens and doing everything you can to scare them away from the pens is perhaps a useful bit of added security. Can't help thinking that for geese and people with free-range operations that are too big for temporary housing to be a workable solution some of the bird scarer techniques used by arable farmers might be worth considering. (I'm ahead of the game here as my normal appearance is enough to frighten most things) ;D
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I'm struggling looking at mine, can't stand seeing such a mess.
Actually, I've been really surprised at how well ours have done so far.
The hens are in a pen made from about eight lambing hurdles. They're criss-crossed with lengths of timber, with a tarp and some old windsurfer sails stretched over the top to make a roof. I expected the ground to be disgusting by now, but actually it's still looking pretty good. Maybe that's because we only have six hens at the moment, or perhaps it's because we're keeping the rain off. It's working though, so I'm not going to mess with it.
The ducks are in a bay of the lambing shed, and we throw fresh hemcore down every day (deep litter method), which keeps things bearable. The key thing was that we cut a hole through the wall to give them an 0.5m2 outside area enclosed with netting, and with a board on top. We put a few barrow loads of gravel down to help drainage, and then use that area for their water bucket. Ducks are going to splash and dabble, but because they can only wet the well drained outside bit, their main inside pen is actually not too hard to keep sanitary.
Obviously everybody's situation is different, but perhaps that's helpful to some?
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Confirmed case at commercial turkey farm in Lincolnshire.
DEFRA have produced guidance sheet for keepers of Gamebirds.
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There is also a list of approved disinfectants and the amount to use in the solution so people can check what they are using is effective.
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Confirmed case at commercial turkey farm in Lincolnshire.
New case is only 200 yards from the Louth Canal and the first one was right next to the same Canal - makes you wonder given how the virus seems to spread easily amongst water birds. From the map it seems the flow down the canal is in the direction from the first case towards the second.
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Interesting. I assume DEFRA have noticed this?
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Just been reading about the Red-Necked Phalarope (bear with me on this). Wader the size of a skylark. Nests on Fetlar in the Shetlands then flies across Iceland, Greenland, down the eastern seaboard of the USA and overwinters in Chile and Peru, then flies back in the Spring (16,000 miles). Not much one can do about that (except, of course, gasp in amazement at the fortitude of such a small bird). Based on migrating birds making those long inter-Continental journeys we may have to live with H5Nsomething on a regular basis now it's been identified and is a threat to commercial flocks. Might be an idea to look at preparing for wintering your birds inside ready for the next time (and there will be a next time). If the covered run area has to be on the earth, for instance, covering it with an old tarpaulin from early Autumn would dry the ground and make it less liable to turn to slurry after they've been contained for a while.
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Interesting. I assume DEFRA have noticed this?
One would assume so! What gets me is that, with the exception of the Bernard Matthews case, DEFRA have always said in press releases that they are investigating the source of the outbreak but I have never found a published conclusion for these investigations. Since we are the PBI fighting this war it would help to know what those conclusions were even if, in the words of Private Frazer it's "We're all doomed" ;D
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DEFRA have produced guidance sheet for keepers of Gamebirds.
Has anybody got a link? I can't find it. (I'm interested, because gamebirds are about as close as the rules get to semi-wild birds like our Peafowl).
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Based on migrating birds making those long inter-Continental journeys we may have to live with H5Nsomething on a regular basis now it's been identified and is a threat to commercial flocks. Might be an idea to look at preparing for wintering your birds inside ready for the next time (and there will be a next time). If the covered run area has to be on the earth, for instance, covering it with an old tarpaulin from early Autumn would dry the ground and make it less liable to turn to slurry after they've been contained for a while.
I think you're spot on MF. We should see this as a wakeup call. It is likely that this will become a regular, if not annual situation. We had a horrid wet winter last year and I reckon my birds are as happy this year inside as they were out in the mud last year. Just going to sow more cabbages and greens this summer, for them for next winter :)
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With any luck, "they"ll produce a vaccine for the commercial flocks before too long. As there are flu vaccines for humans, it must surely be possible?
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Mmm, a bit like human 'flu I'd guess. You wouldn't know which strain was going to prevail until it had already hit.
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With any luck, "they"ll produce a vaccine for the commercial flocks before too long. As there are flu vaccines for humans, it must surely be possible?
Probably possible, but almost certainly totally un-economic for smaller flocks... I sure I really do not want to start injecting my chickens as well as everything else...
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Mmm, a bit like human 'flu I'd guess. You wouldn't know which strain was going to prevail until it had already hit.
With human flu vaccines there is monitoring of the strains of flu circulating in each hemisphere during their "season". This informs the development of the vaccine (i.e. which strains to cover) for the other hemisphere. Most of the time this is reasonably accurate as you can make predictions about the drift of strains. Where we have more problem is if there is a sudden shift in strain and this is often seen when we have pandemic outbreaks - like Spanish flu after WW1.
So not perfect but makes a significant difference in most years.
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Based on migrating birds making those long inter-Continental journeys we may have to live with H5Nsomething on a regular basis now it's been identified and is a threat to commercial flocks.
Birds have always migrated and we have had various strains of bird flu before. What we need to know is why it is so prevalent at the moment across the globe.
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But is it? If avian 'flu hadn't been identified in two turkey farms each with thousands of birds all that would have happened is that a few wild water fowl would have been found dead (and presumably would have been eaten by the local foxes and badgers if they hadn't been picked up by humans) and a handful of small, domestic flocks scattered around the country had been struck by some mysterious illness and died. No-one would have taken any notice.
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True, Marches Farmer, and that's exactly what it's all about: the farms. At one point that disease from the wild, that only caused some mysterious ilness in a few backyard flocks or wild birds, turns up in a commercial unit with the stocking densities and distribution et cetera that comes with the modern food supply chain, and causes great economic loss. But oops, says Defra, we have a pampered country to feed.
It's all about our food supply and providing the nation with protein at a certain (read: low) price level, and this involves commercial stocking densities. This might change again in future but in the meantime 60m people need (some) protein. I'm hoping long term things will change towards sustainability rather than cost... I realise I'm an optimist. In the current outbreak it's so far only two turkey farms that have suffered unless I missed something on the news, and even if I did, if it stays at that this winter we would seem to have come off lightly compared to the continent.
A good argument against mega dairies, all this. Not meaning to open another can of worms, btw ;)
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But is it? If avian 'flu hadn't been identified in two turkey farms each with thousands of birds all that would have happened is that a few wild water fowl would have been found dead (and presumably would have been eaten by the local foxes and badgers if they hadn't been picked up by humans) and a handful of small, domestic flocks scattered around the country had been struck by some mysterious illness and died. No-one would have taken any notice.
Maybe I am not following you MF but there has been avian flu outbreaks in this country before. We have also had this particular strain. Before they was only protection zones around the outbreak and they were lifted after about month. What seems to make the difference this time is the number of cases popping up in Europe and further afield.
You maybe quite right that this will become an annual problem on a larger scale rather than sporadic outbreaks every couple of years.
I made the point about the disease being picked up in the wild bird deaths because people are now looking for dead wild birds a few pages back but ColinS says the testing/monitoring has always taken place.
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True, Marches Farmer, and that's exactly what it's all about: the farms. At one point that disease from the wild, that only caused some mysterious ilness in a few backyard flocks or wild birds, turns up in a commercial unit with the stocking densities and distribution et cetera that comes with the modern food supply chain, and causes great economic loss. But oops, says Defra, we have a pampered country to feed.
It's all about our food supply and providing the nation with protein at a certain (read: low) price level, and this involves commercial stocking densities. This might change again in future but in the meantime 60m people need (some) protein. I'm hoping long term things will change towards sustainability rather than cost... I realise I'm an optimist. In the current outbreak it's so far only two turkey farms that have suffered unless I missed something on the news, and even if I did, if it stays at that this winter we would seem to have come off lightly compared to the continent.
A good argument against mega dairies, all this. Not meaning to open another can of worms, btw ;)
I wonder how many small backyard flocks may have missed that they had bird flu. A lot of small keepers wouldn't go to the vet for a chicken. How many backyard flocks are even not aware of bird flu?
It is so easy to say that farming has got too big and intensive and it shouldn't be and to blame Defra and the Government but it is the consumer who has to be educated if you want change. To make that change to the masses is an enormous task. Yes, a percentage are interested in where their food comes from and how it is produced and are prepared to/can afford to pay more for it but a huge amount of people can not afford the difference in cost.
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A lot of small keepers wouldn't go to the vet for a chicken.
No, nor would I, unless I already knew what the problem was and just needed a prescription. Also, a lot of vets wouldn't know what one was if you did!
My sister is a vet, and whilst she knows an awful lot about cats and dogs, she usually phones me if she is faced with anything feathered. Her initial training didn't cover much to do with poultry, and she hardly ever sees birds in her practice. Likewise, our farm vets don't know much about them either, which is hardly surprising (I don't think there are any commercial poultry farms nearby).
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To come from another angle,
Something I've wondered about for a few years, we seem to be getting so many diseases, animal and bird, where are they coming from? Could they be being developed by a country to destabilise economies?
Have I been watching too many James Bond movies? :-)
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Also, a lot of vets wouldn't know what one was if you did!
As for geese, our vet didn't even have them on their computer system - had to log it down as bird/other
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It is so easy to say that farming has got too big and intensive and it shouldn't be and to blame Defra
I'm not blaming Defra or the government at all, I merely pointed out that feeding the masses is what Defra's trying to do, that's their responsibility. Just imagine if the government didn't care... ???
With regards to growing enough protein for a given population we're actually very successful. The days of rationing or famine are luckily long gone thanks to modern farming. Time to tweak the system now to make it also sustainable rather than more vulnerable.
I don't accept the cost argument for cheap meat, though. But that's for another time, or this thread might run into a hundred pages :)
Now why do I keep on having trouble with font sizes on here?
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Have I been watching too many James Bond movies? :-)
Yes ;) ;D
But it's ok, we need cynics and conspiracy theorists to keep us on our toes. :thumbsup:
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To come from another angle,
Something I've wondered about for a few years, we seem to be getting so many diseases, animal and bird, where are they coming from? Could they be being developed by a country to destabilise economies?
Have I been watching too many James Bond movies? :-)
I suppose we had diseases we no longer see and we have new diseases coming along but whether we have the same number, more or less, than we started with is an interesting question.
I once went to a vet talk based around how vets practices had changed in the lifetime of the speaker. Not only did he show how instruments and technology have changed but also how there has been a difference in the types of call they get.
These days we have massive movement of animals through markets and slaughterhouses that are further afield than they used to be and massive movements of people. We also have better diagnosis, less home slaughtering and vets at abattoirs. We can also share information more quickly and we know what is going on the other side of the world.
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The more diagnostic tools you have and the more often you use them the more diseases you find ....?
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Back in a time of a previous climate crisis, in the Middle Ages, there were epidemics of 'murrain'. I'm not sure what it was, probably several things, but it seemed to knock out a large number of farm animals and crops, leading to starvation amongst the population.
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The more diagnostic tools you have and the more often you use them the more diseases you find ....?
Quite possibly and we no longer blame the gods, witches etc
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Millions of folk put out bird feeders of many kinds to attract as many possible species as possible over winter. The RSPB is still encouraging this actively and indeed carrying out another annual birdwatch at the end of January to see how many people can spot, so all the bird food (with RSPB subsidising costs of feed bought from their online shop to encourage more varieties to be sold) is being bought up by keen supporters of keeping fluffy birds well fed.
Has nobody actually thought about the potential impact of bringing loads of wild birds together to feeding stations where they normally wouldn't mix? Or are garden birds supposed to be completely immune to avian flu in which case why are we supposed to at all costs prevent one of them from pooping on our locked up chooks or stealing in to nick a bit of corn through the mesh and tarp constructions?
Government communication is incredibly poor but the messages are so contradictory that Joe Public is uninformed about the risks of bird flu at all AND being encouraged to bring as many wild birds together in one place as they can possibly manage. Those with poultry keeping neighbours are not making things any easier to live with, but you can't say a thing because their activities are completely legal, sanctioned and promoted all round..
Just hope 28 Feb is the end of it for this year but like others I imagine we need to plan for lock downs every year in future, just in case.
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Back in a time of a previous climate crisis, in the Middle Ages, there were epidemics of 'murrain'. I'm not sure what it was, probably several things, but it seemed to knock out a large number of farm animals and crops, leading to starvation amongst the population.
I think it was also the fifth plague of Egypt, that killed all the Egyptian cattle. I'd guess it was an umbrella term applied to all mystery illnesses - foot & mouth disease, redwater fever and so on.
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Millions of folk put out bird feeders of many kinds to attract as many possible species as possible over winter. The RSPB is still encouraging this actively and indeed carrying out another annual birdwatch at the end of January to see how many people can spot, so all the bird food (with RSPB subsidising costs of feed bought from their online shop to encourage more varieties to be sold) is being bought up by keen supporters of keeping fluffy birds well fed.
Has nobody actually thought about the potential impact of bringing loads of wild birds together to feeding stations where they normally wouldn't mix? Or are garden birds supposed to be completely immune to avian flu in which case why are we supposed to at all costs prevent one of them from pooping on our locked up chooks or stealing in to nick a bit of corn through the mesh and tarp constructions?
Government communication is incredibly poor but the messages are so contradictory that Joe Public is uninformed about the risks of bird flu at all AND being encouraged to bring as many wild birds together in one place as they can possibly manage. Those with poultry keeping neighbours are not making things any easier to live with, but you can't say a thing because their activities are completely legal, sanctioned and promoted all round..
I have badgered the RSPB to issue some prominent advice to the public about what people should do. Since about 50% of the adult population in the UK put up at least one bird feeder it is certainly one of the ways we could influence the spread of all avian disease. Unfortunately there are some in the RSPB who want to believe the spread of AI is entirely down to poultry movements.
To be fair to the RSPB they have standing advice to their members about disinfecting feeders regularly (mainly to prevent the spread of trichomonosis). While I think the RSPB could have done more to reiterate the importance of disinfecting feeders DEFRA and the BBC come in for the same criticism as, between them, they could have made sure everyone in the country knew about the disease while I'm still bumping into people who have no idea about it.
Personally I think having people stopping feeding the birds does the poultry keeper no favours. My experience of feeding the wild birds near the house and (with appropriate use of disinfectant on boots going in and out) stomping about the fields myself (a very unpleasant looking bird scarer I can assure you) I have remarkably little bird activity where I don't want it. Even the heron (who of course is not given to hanging from peanut feeders) has rather given up on visiting the pond. So my guess is that the little birds are less likely to break into your pens after food if someone down the lane is feeding them.
BTW - we disinfect the wild bird feeders and renew and acidify the water every day (though I doubt everyone is going to these lengths)
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With any luck, "they"ll produce a vaccine for the commercial flocks before too long. As there are flu vaccines for humans, it must surely be possible?
Probably possible, but almost certainly totally un-economic for smaller flocks... I sure I really do not want to start injecting my chickens as well as everything else...
I imagine commercial flocks already vaccinate against Marecks and possibly Salmonella (is that even possible?) so I'd guess it'd just become another rotine jab to protect their assets. I don't imagine small flock keepers would bother.
After all, this lock-down is about protecting the commercial flocks, not the backyard/pet owners.
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Poultry producers have criticised the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust who confirmed four cases of the H5N8 bird flu strain were found in dead birds at its Slimbridge reserve during December, but remains open to the public with the birds outside: http://bit.ly/2iFqxEQ (http://bit.ly/2iFqxEQ) all birds and fawl no point us keeping oure stock in
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Millions of folk put out bird feeders of many kinds to attract as many possible species as possible over winter. The RSPB is still encouraging this actively and indeed carrying out another annual birdwatch at the end of January to see how many people can spot, so all the bird food (with RSPB subsidising costs of feed bought from their online shop to encourage more varieties to be sold) is being bought up by keen supporters of keeping fluffy birds well fed.
Has nobody actually thought about the potential impact of bringing loads of wild birds together to feeding stations where they normally wouldn't mix? Or are garden birds supposed to be completely immune to avian flu in which case why are we supposed to at all costs prevent one of them from pooping on our locked up chooks or stealing in to nick a bit of corn through the mesh and tarp constructions?
Government communication is incredibly poor but the messages are so contradictory that Joe Public is uninformed about the risks of bird flu at all AND being encouraged to bring as many wild birds together in one place as they can possibly manage. Those with poultry keeping neighbours are not making things any easier to live with, but you can't say a thing because their activities are completely legal, sanctioned and promoted all round..
Just hope 28 Feb is the end of it for this year but like others I imagine we need to plan for lock downs every year in future, just in case.
Hoping this comes out right this time, too tiny to read in previous attempt. -
I have poultry and we feed wild birds, i reckon if they are going to be pooping they are better doing it in the currently unused garden (which they DO), than down in the shrubs near the hen huts :-). Maybe different on a migratory route, we only have locals visiting, OH can evenue recognize whos who in his family of robins
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OH just phoned from near Littleborough, Lancs. Flock of hens wandering loose.
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To be fair, I can see how difficult it could be to spread the word about keeping birds under cover. Used to be that almost everyone took a daily newspaper and listened to the television news broadcast at 6.00 p.m. Now the way information is spread is so diverse covering all the options is virtually impossible, especially targeting those whose main interest is tweeting (pun intended).
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To be fair, I can see how difficult it could be to spread the word about keeping birds under cover.
Well, during the Bernard Matthews outbreak you would have had to live under a rock to avoid the story but this time the BBC have put the stories on the regional pages of their website (e.g. England/Lincolnshire) and been similarly low-key about it on radio and TV.
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Local farm park still had all their hens,turkeys and ducks wandering about as usual last week.
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Well, people local to me, who had originally kept their birds in are now letting them out. They're saying it is pointless given that the vast majority of folk are not following the guidelines, plus the fact that the hundreds of local pheasants are a giant virus pool anyway. Shooting is continuing as normal so the pheasants are constantly on the move being driven from wood to wood and field to field.
Seems that my poor birds are the only ones for miles around that are in lockdown! ::)
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There is a local farm come smallholding who have hens free ranging this just off the main A1 and the owner is a VET and all there geese are free & another one local who breeds ducks as well as selling duck eggs have them all loose why bother.
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Back in a time of a previous climate crisis, in the Middle Ages, there were epidemics of 'murrain'. I'm not sure what it was, probably several things, but it seemed to knock out a large number of farm animals and crops, leading to starvation amongst the population.
This is something that I have researched during my history degree. The murrain was mentioned by several chroniclers and they put it that in the aftermath of the black death ' there was such a decline of the serfs that there was hardly no one left alive to care for the flocks and herds'. There has been speculation amongst archeology historians that foot and mouth could have been the cause but after their examining the remains of large numbers of discovered animals bones, that foot and mouth was not the cause of the high numbers of animals deaths. What must be remembered is that medieval society did not keep large numbers of animals, as we do today. There was no need, they only had to raise enough for food and a few over for sale.
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Very interesting Herdygirl. Is there not also a theory (I must declare here that I failed my history O level) that there was a huge volcanic eruption which kept the sunlight away for a couple of years? That coupled with the reduction in population after the Black Death would be bound to have a huge impact. It helps to put our current problems in perspective.
Although no, there's something else today which trumps the lot :innocent:
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There is a local farm come smallholding who have hens free ranging this just off the main A1 and the owner is a VET and all there geese are free & another one local who breeds ducks as well as selling duck eggs have them all loose why bother.
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Some people will choose to comply because that is what they are comfortable with and I am afraid others wont.
If you take the number of wild birds we have out there and the number of poultry, the vast majority of which I reckon is still free ranging, then the number of bird flu outbreaks there is huge difference between the potential and actual outbreaks at present. So, I think most people actually don't see a threat.
Highly aggravating for those who are worried and complying.
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the owner is a VET and all there geese are free
As it's geese what they are doing may be in line with the DEFRA regs :-
"There are certain species of bird – such as ostrich, captive wildfowl or geese, which are not normally housed – for which the housing steps outlined above may not be practicable. In such cases you should isolate their food and water from wild birds"
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Drove to the Cumbrian coast with work the other day, past 7 or 8 farms with small flocks of chickens free ranging !
Stopped to have my bait in a little village next to the allotments and noticed every hen was out !
What's going on!!!!!
Is it the lack of information being put out by Defra and the media (which is very poor because if I wasn't on forums I don't think I would know) or do people just not give a dam ?
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Lack of media info I think, this is about the only forum I see it discussed, apart from a Facebook page where there was a shortlived thread.
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It is all pointless. The wild bird population isn't likely to die out or stop flying around pooping and it's unlikely that we will keep hens in until they do either.
My hens are in, but I strongly suspect I'm the only person in the area who is keeping them in.
The local wildlife sanctuary who also has poultry, pigeons and waterfowl as well as vast numbers of seagulls who come and go, haven't got theirs shut in - they are only feeding under cover and not taking in any ill birds.
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I confess to being frustrated by the number of local hen keepers still free ranging their flocks. I have ten hens and fifteen ducks all of which have been kept in since the start - poor ducks do get a bit confused watching their wild mates frolicking around in the pond as usual! I digress - there are a number of keepers by me with larger flocks still enjoying the great outdoors, I have thought about calling in and asking them if they are aware of the issue but I confess to being a little 'chicken'(!) about the reaction I might get.
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To be fair, I can see how difficult it could be to spread the word about keeping birds under cover. Used to be that almost everyone took a daily newspaper and listened to the television news broadcast at 6.00 p.m. Now the way information is spread is so diverse covering all the options is virtually impossible, especially targeting those whose main interest is tweeting (pun intended).
But not impossible - BBC News, Sky News, Facebook, Twitter. We are told almost every word uttered by that maniac so I'm damned sure twitter wpuld have worked!
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To be fair, I can see how difficult it could be to spread the word about keeping birds under cover. Used to be that almost everyone took a daily newspaper and listened to the television news broadcast at 6.00 p.m. Now the way information is spread is so diverse covering all the options is virtually impossible, especially targeting those whose main interest is tweeting (pun intended).
But not impossible - BBC News, Sky News, Facebook, Twitter. We are told almost every word uttered by that maniac so I'm damned sure twitter wpuld have worked!
Maybe if Defra really wanted everyone to know they would be making more of an effort to contact everyone. We all buy feed so the feed merchants might be a good place to start.
Perhaps we are all attaching more importance to the issue than Defra because they feel the level of publicity is enough. Given how many wild birds we have, how many poultry there are still running out and the actual number of cases it is hardly news breaking.
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But not impossible - BBC News, Sky News, Facebook, Twitter. We are told almost every word uttered by that maniac so I'm damned sure twitter wpuld have worked!
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What maniac?
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We all buy feed so the feed merchants might be a good place to start.
Must say that my first bit of biosecurity in December was to lay in enough feed to last till early April as the feed merchants yard has to be a possible point of virus exchange.
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We all buy feed so the feed merchants might be a good place to start.
Must say that my first bit of biosecurity in December was to lay in enough feed to last till early April as the feed merchants yard has to be a possible point of virus exchange.
I couldn't store food for the whole smallholding in 3 month batches I'm afraid.
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I found this article from FWI quite thought provoking:-
http://www.fwi.co.uk/poultry/surviving-bird-flu-one-duck-breeders-story.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/poultry/surviving-bird-flu-one-duck-breeders-story.htm)
Especially the comment "Don’t assume an outbreak will be on an outdoor unit; recent outbreaks have largely been confined to housed birds – no one knows quite how they are infected"
Although the article pre-dates the current outbreak the comment holds true this time. It seems we desperately need to know more about the exact mechanism of transmission.
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Is there not also a theory (I must declare here that I failed my history O level) that there was a huge volcanic eruption which kept the sunlight away for a couple of years? That coupled with the reduction in population after the Black Death would be bound to have a huge impact.
Possibly the eruption of Krakatoa?
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I couldn't store food for the whole smallholding in 3 month batches I'm afraid.
Kid's bedrooms are basically clothes silos - you could convert them to combined clothes/grain silos while they are out - they will never notice so long as the clothes are on top.
Chance of them blocking the vac with the grain? - are you kidding? ;D
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Is there not also a theory (I must declare here that I failed my history O level) that there was a huge volcanic eruption which kept the sunlight away for a couple of years? That coupled with the reduction in population after the Black Death would be bound to have a huge impact.
Possibly the eruption of Krakatoa?
The one everyone talks about was in 1883 or thereabouts, but it does seem to go off frequently. Is that the one which is suspected of causing the two years with no sun? In medieval times though would people have known what was causing the problem. There are lots of huge volcanoes which are potential suspects. I'm still scratching my head to remember the chief suspect, but you're probably right.
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Is there not also a theory (I must declare here that I failed my history O level) that there was a huge volcanic eruption which kept the sunlight away for a couple of years? That coupled with the reduction in population after the Black Death would be bound to have a huge impact.
Possibly the eruption of Krakatoa?
The one everyone talks about was in 1883 or thereabouts, but it does seem to go off frequently. Is that the one which is suspected of causing the two years with no sun? In medieval times though would people have known what was causing the problem. There are lots of huge volcanoes which are potential suspects. I'm still scratching my head to remember the chief suspect, but you're probably right.
I must admit this has always puzzled me so I have done a bit of digging - the Great Famine of 1315-1322 was caused by poor weather resulting in bad harvests. There has been some work published in 2013 that points to another factor ie drought. The article argues that years of a mixture of poor weather, heavy rain, low temperatures followed by drought caused severe outbreaks of disease, animal and human. I have yet to find evidence of volcanic activity but that doesn't rule it out.
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This might have been what Fleecwife had in mind:-
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/05/medieval-volcano-disaster-london-graves (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/05/medieval-volcano-disaster-london-graves)
Going at bit off topic now...
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But an interesting diversion, methinks. Just read the article - eight times more powerful than Krakatoa so probably ripped apart whatever volcanic island(s) caused it.
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Thanks PK, that's the one :thumbsup:
I mentioned these awful events initially to help put our current woes into perspective. Imagine living during such a mass disaster :'( But without our current global communication pathways, the population would never have known such events were worldwide.
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Watched "Winterwatch" on BBC 2 the other night.
Would this not be the time for the BBC to discuss Bird Flu ?
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But not impossible - BBC News, Sky News, Facebook, Twitter. We are told almost every word uttered by that maniac so I'm damned sure twitter wpuld have worked!
What maniac?
[/quote]You really need me to tell you? You don't watch the news? Not what is going on in other countries? :innocent: A very well reported person regularly tweets his opinions.
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More bad news I'm afraid:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38739112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38739112)
Note the BBC put it on the regional page of the website again. >:(
To be fair they did put it out on the Radio 2 news at 10pm - it will be interesting to see if they still have it on there tomorrow morning when 'important' people might hear it.
And now a new strain (H5N5) in Germany:-
http://www.dw.com/en/new-bird-flu-sub-type-found-on-turkey-farm-in-germany/a-37251542 (http://www.dw.com/en/new-bird-flu-sub-type-found-on-turkey-farm-in-germany/a-37251542)
So where did that come from? And here an article again showing how the 'experts' are completely divided on the mechanism of spread:-
http://www.dw.com/en/bird-flu-will-continue-to-flare-into-2017/a-36979225 (http://www.dw.com/en/bird-flu-will-continue-to-flare-into-2017/a-36979225)
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Bird flu did reach radio 4 this morning, but they interviewed a virologist, who,talked about how birds are the source of human flu, how wild birds transmit the virus, BUT no mention of any of the DEFRA policies on protecting the nations domestic flocks. He did state that the virus gets a hold in large domesticated flocks, I got he impression he was against keeping domesticated hens. Such a missed opportunity because radio 4 chose wrong expert ( in my experience not an unusual occurrence, but that is another story and probably not for her!)
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More bad news I'm afraid:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38739112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38739112)
A small note but... Please stop putting "expert" in quote marks.
Virology is damn difficult! There are many things we don't understand. Mocking or deriding the scientists doing their best is how we end up with a president declaring that climate change is rubbish, and silencing knowledgeable people and actual experts who dare disagree with him.
:-\
Note the BBC put it on the regional page of the website again. >:(
To be fair they did put it out on the Radio 2 news at 10pm - it will be interesting to see if they still have it on there tomorrow morning when 'important' people might hear it.
And now a new strain (H5N5) in Germany:-
http://www.dw.com/en/new-bird-flu-sub-type-found-on-turkey-farm-in-germany/a-37251542 (http://www.dw.com/en/new-bird-flu-sub-type-found-on-turkey-farm-in-germany/a-37251542)
So where did that come from? And here an article again showing how the 'experts' are completely divided on the mechanism of spread:-
http://www.dw.com/en/bird-flu-will-continue-to-flare-into-2017/a-36979225 (http://www.dw.com/en/bird-flu-will-continue-to-flare-into-2017/a-36979225)
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A small note but... Please stop putting "expert" in quote marks.
I have a Ph.D, was in academia for 20 years and have been a consultant for the subsequent 20+ years so in my field count as one of the experts for which you have such reverence. Sadly, I have to say that your faith is, in many cases, sadly misplaced. In this case we are given a clear vision of how diametrically opposing views are being voiced (as we also have with the “burnt toast” saga between the FSA, the EFSA, Cancer Research UK and the Winton Centre) but in others we don't see the extent to which an expert view is a matter of opinion as much as a matter of hard fact.
Science was perhaps never as pure and fair-minded as I and many others who went into it would like to believe (e.g. Newton vs Hooke) but the environment for such purity has got a lot worse within my lifetime. The best of my former colleagues would never be used by the media as they would always hedge their opinions around with the necessary caveats and that would never do in a world of tweets.
So sorry, I think I have earned the right to put “expert” in quotes where I feel it is needed.
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I see France has started pre-emptive culling in the south west, where they've identified it's spread farm-to-farm. 158 outbreaks and it's been found in farms where no deaths have so far been reported.
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My daughter likes to look at the ex batt FB page.
Someone posted on there that they have had DEFRAs vets there this morning to check their hens and their pens. Wearing full suit and mask. Used disinfectant before entering.
They are in the Protection Zone.
Seems odd that no reinforcement of the guidelines is taking place outside of these areas. I feel like a fruit cake with mine all in and everyone elses running out!
Looking at all these pheasants with suspicion!
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Preesall is on a river and the surrounding area sees hundreds of geese grazing on farmland. Not a good sign.
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Just followed a link to Wikipedia. Really interesting reading. One passage says backyard poultry were less likely to get it than the commercial units, (as I read it) because of genetic weakness (inbreeding? ), biosecurity, and others I can't remember.
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Just followed a link to Wikipedia. Really interesting reading. One passage says backyard poultry were less likely to get it than the commercial units, (as I read it) because of genetic weakness (inbreeding? ), biosecurity, and others I can't remember.
Anything free ranging is perhaps more likely to build up a resistance and the large units will have delivery vehicles going from one farm to another, so I can see that backyard flocks may be less likely to get it but also in large units the spread will be so quick and less likely to be "ignored" than someone with a couple of hens who might put their deaths down to bad luck.
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Yes, I was wondering why it seems outbreaks at large turkey farms are common. The RSPCA publication "The Welfare of turkeys Information Sheet 2013" on how they operate and some of the problems (e.g. foot-pad lesions) is quite thought-provoking (sorry I would give a link but it goes to an automatic PDF download so you need to google it).
It occurred to me that, given that an intensive turkey farm is virtually a single organism with several thousand beaks it would be the perfect virus detector for virus in the feed. No scientific test could detect 0.1g of virus-infected grain in 10 tons of feed but a big turkey farm possibly would.
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Found a dead wood pigeon under the leylandi last week. Called DEFRA but they are only interested if you find more than 1 at a time. They just said to double bag it and put in general waste.
Found a collared dove dead in the same spot yesterday. It's making me very nervous.
Dans
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I'm confused, are there 2 outbreaks in Lancashire? I'm seeing Preston and Preesall, which is out at Fleetwood?
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New outbreak just outside Paris has been on the midday news. They are blaming wild birds and then showed video footage of pheasants inside and outside the enclosures. So are they blaming wild pheasants?
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This is all I can find -
Bird flu detected in 10,000 pheasants at farm in Preston
Defra says all surviving pheasants are to be culled
The H5N8 bird flu strain has been found in poultry in Lancashire,two separate poultry farms in Lincolnshire, and backyard flocks in Settle, North Yorkshire, and Carmarthenshire.
Restrictions remain in place at one of the Lincolnshire farms, located in East Lindsey, but have been lifted in nearby Louth. The cases in Settle and Carmarthenshire continue to be subject to protection zones, according to Defra’s website.
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I'm confused, are there 2 outbreaks in Lancashire? I'm seeing Preston and Preesall, which is out at Fleetwood?
It is Hy Fly Pheasant Hatcheries at Preesall.
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A gov.uk site says Preston, then as you go into the site it says Wyre. Someone nends to decide where it Is!
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A gov.uk site says Preston, then as you go into the site it says Wyre. Someone nends to decide where it Is!
Google Hy Fly Hatcheries and you'll see where they are
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The 'game farm' that is local to us, sets over 600,000 eggs per week and rears over 1.5 million poults per year at 39 sites across Mid Wales and Shropshire.
The brood pens are on grass. Wondering if they will all be bird proofed this year and what bio security measures will be in place.
Will they be allowed to re?Ease poults in the late spring if this continues.
Reared outdoors, transported all over the country, released, flushed from field to field, 4x4's driving from farm to farm, and so on.
It is a wonderful, moving host site for bird flu, surely?! Seems perfect to me. ::)
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One passage says backyard poultry were less likely to get it than the commercial units, (as I read it) because of genetic weakness (inbreeding? )......
Perhaps not inbreeding, but rather lack of genetic diversity?
It is a wonderful, moving host site for bird flu, surely?! Seems perfect to me. ::)
So what if a pheasant farm gets infected, but don't realise it a the time due to the incubation period? Those birds are then transported all over the country and released into the wild.
Mind blown!!
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I think each batch of poults is supposedly vet checked before leaving the site. Could they tell if there was infection if it were in the incubation period. I did read that the incubation period was 2 weeks.
I think they would then go into holding pens when they arrive at their destination. These are usually fenced areas of woodland. Rather difficult to cover and bird proof!
Just seems very risky considering how we are being asked to keep our few birds. Money talks, I suppose.
Sorry, rather frustrated at keeping mine in when nearly every other chicken for miles around is out and the pheasants are mulling round the pens all day long. ???
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Seems that pigeons fanciers are "exempt" from the ban on poultry etc events.... they just had their annual event at Blackpool last weekend, only billed as the biggest in the country... where I can see it is difficult to keep pigeons inside, why was the event not cancelled like all the other poultry shows at the moment...
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I think each batch of poults is supposedly vet checked before leaving the site. Could they tell if there was infection if it were in the incubation period. I did read that the incubation period was 2 weeks.
I think they would then go into holding pens when they arrive at their destination. These are usually fenced areas of woodland. Rather difficult to cover and bird proof!
Just seems very risky considering how we are being asked to keep our few birds. Money talks, I suppose.
Sorry, rather frustrated at keeping mine in when nearly every other chicken for miles around is out and the pheasants are mulling round the pens all day long. ???
The owner of Hy Fly Hatcheries thinks he may go bankrupt. How many people with small backyard flocks risk bankruptcy should they get bird flu? I know many keep rare breeds and yes that is an issue.
It is actually mind blowing to know how much stock is moved daily throughout the country let alone poultry and how many peoples livelihood is directly or indirectly at risk in times of disease.
In the Foot and Mouth of 2001 we considered slaughtering our sows because it was a "hobby" to us but around us there were whole generations of farmers with valuable stock who had far more to lose.
I suspect many larger poultry operations have indeed had to implement at huge expense bird proofing measures.
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Found a dead wood pigeon under the leylandi last week. Called DEFRA but they are only interested if you find more than 1 at a time. They just said to double bag it and put in general waste.
Dans
So that will presumably end up on a landfill site that looks like this:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm)
Sound advice I'm sure.
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Found a dead wood pigeon under the leylandi last week. Called DEFRA but they are only interested if you find more than 1 at a time. They just said to double bag it and put in general waste.
Dans
So that will presumably end up on a landfill site that looks like this:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm)
Sound advice I'm sure.
......and if it was one of your chickens you would be expected to have it collected and disposed of properly not popped in the wheelie bin!
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Typical :huff:
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Found a dead wood pigeon under the leylandi last week. Called DEFRA but they are only interested if you find more than 1 at a time. They just said to double bag it and put in general waste.
Dans
So that will presumably end up on a landfill site that looks like this:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8367000/8367792.stm)
Sound advice I'm sure.
You couldn't make it up could you? Would burning have been better?
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It's made tonight's sky news,not heard anyone actually mention it but it's Breaking News going along the bottom of the screen :(
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There is a local farm come smallholding who have hens free ranging this just off the main A1 and the owner is a VET and all there geese are free & another one local who breeds ducks as well as selling duck eggs have them all loose why bother.
if they are businesses you could report to trading standards.
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You are naw wasting you're time keeping them in. Yesterday a nother case so a nother month. They have had this in parts of France for 18 months are they kept no not for a minute. The place where the swans are no culling and open. Look at the web cam fawl forgen not on.
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I wrote a report a couple of years ago for a farmer rearing organic turkeys outdoors in the Black Forest. He was looking at bringing in old breeds to strengthen the robustness of the birds' health. Our Narragansetts could certainly do that and it's one of the reasons we keep rare breeds - once that genetic diversity is gone, it's gone.
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19,500 bird turkey farm in Boston, Lincs. have now succumbed.
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And another case at a pheasant farm in Lancashire.
Confirmed today.
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This case was discovered proactively. Link between the two businesses.
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Anybody know where the latest outbreak is? Text alert just says Lancashire, website still just showing '27th latest
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Wyre, Lancashire.
Found during pro active investigations into the other outbreak. The two pheasant rearing businesses are linked.
Go to the DEFRA page and click on the link dated 27 the January.
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We have had 2 SMS messages on our landline which I think must be from DEFRA. The computerised voice is very difficult to understand.
This mornings message said avian flue in Lancashire but I couldn't understand the rest of it but I guess that this is talking about the latest outbreak mentioned above.
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I also, for the first time ever, have had a text about bird flu from DEFRA. Wow, only weeks and weeks too late informing me. Really impressed :huff:
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Wonder whether there will be more cases found in pheasants now.
Around here the 'wild' pheasants are now or very soon caught up in large catching pens and transported to the breeding pens for rearing. Many sites, often on farms, are used.
We shall see. Had concerns about these farmed pheasants since this started.
:(
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It's on the front page of the Beeb online 'whole of Britain' News this morning :o
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But the BBC are still leading on the risk to humans. Minor mention of DEFRA restrictions but no details - another missed opportunity to get the message out to all poultry keepers in my view, but then in my view the BBC gave up any pretence about being a public service broadcaster a long time ago.
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I think google earth is showing symbols of where outbreaks are, not sure if it's just picking up on my searching, but when I put 'pilling lancashire' it shows a symbol there and at Preston, i wonder if computer labels nearest major town as well? (Same birds in Gloucester as at the nearby Slimbridge), also wild birds at merseyside
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Not sure if I posted a link to this one before:-
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/7/09-0389_article (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/7/09-0389_article)
Interesting tentative suggestion about different spread mechanisms for LPAI and HPAI.
Here is an article from the Sun (not perhaps the highest authority but still)...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2720987/global-spread-of-bird-flu-reaches-unprecedented-levels-raising-the-risk-of-a-human-outbreak/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2720987/global-spread-of-bird-flu-reaches-unprecedented-levels-raising-the-risk-of-a-human-outbreak/)
in which some specialist again talking about spread by aerosol - “aerosol transmission from one infected barn to others, in some cases many miles away”. If he is right biosecurity requires air-tight barns with filtered inflow (and if you are being picky about containment, outflows) - not trivial to arrange.
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I'm just astonished at how many of my neighbours are letting their birds free range and just because we are near a public road, although very quiet, we feel we have to keep ours in. The risks in Shetland are minimal but I can't risk being fined!
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Here is an article from the Sun (not perhaps the highest authority but still)...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2720987/global-spread-of-bird-flu-reaches-unprecedented-levels-raising-the-risk-of-a-human-outbreak/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2720987/global-spread-of-bird-flu-reaches-unprecedented-levels-raising-the-risk-of-a-human-outbreak/)
in which some specialist again talking about spread by aerosol - “aerosol transmission from one infected barn to others, in some cases many miles away”. If he is right biosecurity requires air-tight barns with filtered inflow (and if you are being picky about containment, outflows) - not trivial to arrange.
That would be the one with a picture of turkeys and underneath mentions the outbreak at the pheasant hatchery. :innocent:
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Be fair - thanks to it being by a female Sun journalist at least it's illustrated by something with its own feathers ;D
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63,000 pheasants, partridges and ducks to be culled as bird flu discovered at a third linked premises in Lancashire.
Check out the 'latest' section at the bottom of the DEFRA page.
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I wonder what, if any, biosecurity measures they had in place?
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I guess this will be part of the investigation but as I said in an earlier post the first outbreak in this area was not good. On a major river, very low lying, wet area and fields regularly grazed by hundreds of wild geese and other waterfowl.
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Another article discussing the spread/infection mechanisms of H5Nx viruses.
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2988587/deadly_bird_flu_strains_created_by_industrial_poultry_farms.html (http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2988587/deadly_bird_flu_strains_created_by_industrial_poultry_farms.html)
"The virus has switched from binding specifically to receptors in waterfowl intestines to expanding to receptors found in poultry throats. That means the virus is able to infect a broader range of host species, now including the poultry global agribusiness raises in the billions."
Also shows yet again how there is little short of a punch-up going on amongst the scientists in this field.
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Once 63000 birds have to be culled in one area isn't the plot well and truly lost?
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Another article discussing the spread/infection mechanisms of H5Nx viruses.
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2988587/deadly_bird_flu_strains_created_by_industrial_poultry_farms.html (http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2988587/deadly_bird_flu_strains_created_by_industrial_poultry_farms.html)
"The virus has switched from binding specifically to receptors in waterfowl intestines to expanding to receptors found in poultry throats. That means the virus is able to infect a broader range of host species, now including the poultry global agribusiness raises in the billions."
Also shows yet again how there is little short of a punch-up going on amongst the scientists in this field.
Interesting ... and also the point about intensive production providing a continuous supply of young, immunologically naïve birds for the virus to infect.
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One of my hens got out this morning, my fault, turned my back for a moment and she fly jumped the barrier. Got her back in after about ten minutes of chasing her round the garden :relief: but bang goes the bio security!
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I bet it's happened to everyone here one or twice!!!!
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:relief: shan't beat myself up about it then!
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My birds seem happy enough. Once the ponies go out in the morning I shut the big doors and the chickens get the run off the building which has 5 stables and the front is about 20x30. they can dig in the straw that is kept there. I leave the radio on. I muck out later in the morning and they go back into their stable which has netting over the top . I make sure they have greens most days to keep them amused but once the weather starts to warm up I doubt they will be content to stay inside. Its a lot of extra work as I am cleaning their stable every 2nd. I will be glad when this is over !
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We had a blackbird get in under the door of our pen. My chickens thought it was the most exciting thing they'd seen in a while and went for it. Goldie flew across the pen and caught the poor thing in the air, it was quite a move for a chicken I've never seen fly before. The intruder didn't survive long, they then all chased each other around until they'd eaten it. :o
Not seen any guidance on feeding wild birds to chickens but I imagine it's not the best way to avoid bird flu!
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:o oh, goodness.
Couldn't you save it? :'(
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Not a chance.... they are speedy ladies when they've caught themselves a meal.
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That's the one plus side of all this....... the cat can finally walk across the yard with a vole in his mouth without being mugged for it! ;D
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My Columbine ( before she was killed by next doors dog ) would regularly hunt fledglings and eat them, it caused no end of excitement amongst the others.
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Another advantage of the chickens being penned is that Frankie the dog hasn't had the runs for 2 months. She does like to snack on chicken poo if she can and it clearly doesn't quite suit her delicate tummy!
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Glad my hens aren't cannibal! Black bird been a regular visitor to our 'wild bird proof' enclosure ... no idea how it gets in or out!
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Another advantage, if we've all taken it, is we should have the healthiest national flock for years, been ideal for worming etc. Maybe not so for ducks, being such messy little critters ?
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Thainstone Mart have postponed Spring poultry sale :(
POSTPONED - Spring Sale of Poultry and Waterfowl, Hatching Eggs and Poultry Equipment. Horse, Ponies & Tack – 4th March 2017
Due to the Avian Influenza outbreak and the Scottish Government movement and gathering restrictions, the above sale planned for the 4th March 2017 is meantime postponed. Any further updates will appear on our website and Facebook pages when available.
See link for further information from the Scottish Government https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs)
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Never thought about a radio - I do that for the dogs when I go out, memo to self, buy cheapie one at tesco today
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We leave a radio on. Friends advised us to use one as they haven't lost a chicken in 10 years to Fox's since leaving one on. :D
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We leave a radio on. Friends advised us to use one as they haven't lost a chicken in 10 years to Fox's since leaving one on. :D
What station is it on? :innocent:
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
:thumbsup:
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Our peafowl like to listen to Scottish Country Dance classics, from "Take The Floor". They're less convinced since Robbie Shepherd retired from presenting though ;D.
As for the hens, anything other than Fox News works fine for them ;)
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I drive a lorry for a living been high up I can nosey in every ones gardens and over fences hedges ect, the amount of birds I see still free range is mad even seen hens on the side of the road scratching about, and pigeons flying from lofts , can these people get fined ? Seems silly keeping my birds in when so many other people aren't
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A lot of people around here never kept them in at all
A lot of people who started off keeping them in have now given up and let them out thinking it pointless seeing that so many were out. That and the fact that there are hundreds of pheasants everywhere anyway.
In fact folk are looking at me sympathetically when I tell them that mine are still in!
So, you are not alone.
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Please check out DEFRA page for update of biosecurity measures for when the current prevention zone measures expire on the 28th.
Off to read it again. Can't quite get my head around it. :dunce: ::)
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Blimey, this seems to be valid for England. Will have to wait for the Welsh Assembly version. I hope it's clearer than this one.
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Just read the guidance for future measures - clear as mud! I have a hundred foot (ish) long by twelve foot wide natural pond, which extends into the neighbours garden, exactly how do I net this especially as it has half a dozen resident mallards living on it and a pair of moor hens? Looks to me like my lot are in for permanent incarceration. :roflanim: To rub salt in the wound others around me have never shut theirs in :rant:
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Quite a few Mallards would like to take up residence on our farm pond but we don't want them as they churn up the water and make life impossible for the Great Crested Newts that breed in it. We scare them off every time we go past it and after a week or so they decide they don't want to live somewhere people clap their hands, chase them off and generally make life unpleasant.
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It does actually state walking the 'range', particularly with dogs as a means of keeping wild birds away.
Sorted. 2 dogs plus 3 cats. We are okay. :P
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I think the guidelines are quite clear. There are options to let your birds out. However, it will be such a job to meet the criteria you'll keep them in anyway! Job done!
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they decide they don't want to live somewhere people clap their hands, chase them off and generally make life unpleasant.
Wish the herons here were so easily put off. Initially I had success in scaring them away but more recently they have become very persistent and increasingly contemptuous of my efforts. Apparently laser scarers are very effective but rather expensive.
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Well I am now close to culling my few :&> And chickens due to the impact on my :pig: should the flu hit. But before I take the drastic step can anyone explain to me why when this Avian flu strain has no impact on human health or the food chain we are taking these draconian measures?
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But before I take the drastic step can anyone explain to me why when this Avian flu strain has no impact on human health or the food chain we are taking these draconian measures?
A fair question! Perhaps the biosecurity needs a re-think anyway. We have seen only minor occurrences in the wild - about the worst being 9 swans at a swannery where, I understand, no further cases have been found despite the understandable close scrutiny. Other isolated cases at other waterfowl sanctuaries also don't seem to have been followed by subsequent cases and certainly no mass deaths. However, we have seen outbreaks in closely packed turkey farms and what seems to have been an intensive game-bird operation. If, as some have suggested, the H5Nx strains are now aerosol-borne and infect via the respiratory system it seems to me that a tin shed full of hexagonally close packed turkeys is, to such a virus, what an A-bomb is to neutrons. Assemble the super-critical mass, pop in the neutron/virus-laden aerosol and watch it explode. It would explain how such a high proportion of the turkeys in those farms reportedly died of AI before it was even confirmed. As the density of virus-laden aerosol could reach huge levels before clinical signs became obvious it could make sure the entire flock got a lethal dose. Where birds are not so densely packed it seems to peter out.
Perhaps it is the shear intensity of some poultry operations that makes AI a problem.
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Well I am now close to culling my few :&> And chickens due to the impact on my :pig: should the flu hit. But before I take the drastic step can anyone explain to me why when this Avian flu strain has no impact on human health or the food chain we are taking these draconian measures?
Could you enlarge on the possible pig impact please [member=30154]pharnorth[/member] ?
I understand pigs can test positive to AF and if they have it they will be culled and not paid for. Those without would not be culled.
Thanks.
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We are not in, but close to areas deemed ''higher risk'. My concern is the movement and licence restrictions that start to apply to pigs once you get into a surveillance zone. You can 'not move pigs on or off premises where poultry captive birds are kept without a licence'. Somehow I don't think my weaners would get a licence.
My current risk assessment is that my 2 outdoor kept Berkshire pigs are at greater risk from the now multiple migrating birds than the 5 poor Indian Runners I have cooped up. But I am reluctant to either a) net the pond to give them more freedom and so increase risk of infection or b) keep them indefinitly with no more than a car tyre full of head dipping water.
So in the law of diminishing returns the odds are stacking up.
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We are not in, but close to areas deemed ''higher risk'. My concern is the movement and licence restrictions that start to apply to pigs once you get into a surveillance zone. You can 'not move pigs on or off premises where poultry captive birds are kept without a licence'. Somehow I don't think my weaners would get a licence.
My current risk assessment is that my 2 outdoor kept Berkshire pigs are at greater risk from the now multiple migrating birds than the 5 poor Indian Runners I have cooped up. But I am reluctant to either a) net the pond to give them more freedom and so increase risk of infection or b) keep them indefinitly with no more than a car tyre full of head dipping water.
So in the law of diminishing returns the odds are stacking up.
Yes, I think we are the same in terms of the higher risk area.
Are these "licences" different to a normal movement licence then?
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There is nothing on either the BPA or eaml2 site about licencing pigs from within a AV protection zone or the new proposed zone. I have asked both about the current and pending situation.
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I was quoting from the www.gov (http://www.gov) site document Guidance Avian Flu last updated 7th February 2017. Any clarity you get from BPA in particular would be welcome. I haven't been deep diving into this previously but as the lifting of restrictions seems to be very limited thought it was time I did my own risk assessment. Having hardly seen a wild bird for months there are huge numbers passing through right now.
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We are not in, but close to areas deemed ''higher risk'. My concern is the movement and licence restrictions that start to apply to pigs once you get into a surveillance zone. You can 'not move pigs on or off premises where poultry captive birds are kept without a licence'. Somehow I don't think my weaners would get a licence.
My current risk assessment is that my 2 outdoor kept Berkshire pigs are at greater risk from the now multiple migrating birds than the 5 poor Indian Runners I have cooped up. But I am reluctant to either a) net the pond to give them more freedom and so increase risk of infection or b) keep them indefinitly with no more than a car tyre full of head dipping water.
So in the law of diminishing returns the odds are stacking up.
Yes, I think we are the same in terms of the higher risk area.
Are these "licences" different to a normal movement licence then?
Reading that it is ambiguous - is it not a licence for chickens they mean?
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I'm annoyed now - so many people haven't bothered with the hassle of keeping their birds in.
Just got this from APHA for Scotland
"AVIAN INFLUENZA PREVENTION ZONE - UPDATE
9 February 2017
The Avian Influenza Prevention Zone covering Scotland will remain in force until the end of April. From 28 February keepers in Scotland will have the option of letting birds outside, subject to enhanced biosecurity to minimise the risk of infection from wild birds. More at http://news.gov.scot/news/avian-influenza-5 (http://news.gov.scot/news/avian-influenza-5)
There is a continued risk of H5N8 highly pathogenic avian influenza. Information and advice on biosecurity can be found at
http://www.gov.scot/avianinfluenza (http://www.gov.scot/avianinfluenza) and https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA) "
Biosecurity steps include:
making sure that your birds’ feed and water can’t be accessed by wild birds
avoiding transfer of contamination between premises by cleansing and disinfecting equipment, vehicles and footwear
reducing the movement of people, vehicles or equipment to and from areas where poultry or captive birds are kept
implementing effective vermin control around buildings where poultry or captive birds are kept
providing wash facilities or dips containing approved disinfectant (at the right concentration) at key points such as farm entrances and entrances to bird houses.
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Frustrated that I'm in the proposed high risk area... yet there hasn't been any reports of avian flu in Cornwall since this all began. I think I will have to cull my remaining 6 drakes from last year earlier than planned :raining:
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Frustrated that I'm in the proposed high risk area... yet there hasn't been any reports of avian flu in Cornwall since this all began.
Trying to make sense of the map - the nearest "high risk" area to us is in the Barnsley area - can't see why that is different to much of the rest of the area.
BTW - has anyone found a higher resolution version of the map to the one in the DEFRA pdf?
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[member=26320]doganjo[/member] from the context I took the need for a licence to mean additional to the usual pig movement licence. That is, I understood that in surveillance zone the usual emal2 system is suspended / or you need additional authority to move. No doubt in that scenario you are told pretty quickly.[member=25072]twizzel[/member]. No that is the only map,I've seen not very clear but you can enlarge the local area if you click on it. I'm not aware of any cases in the higher risk area near us either. Maybe it is because of a lot of outdoor pig units and migrating birds around there.
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[member=26320]doganjo[/member] from the context I took the need for a licence to mean additional to the usual pig movement licence. That is, I understood that in surveillance zone the usual emal2 system is suspended / or you need additional authority to move. No doubt in that scenario you are told pretty quickly.[member=25072]twizzel[/member]. No that is the only map,I've seen not very clear but you can enlarge the local area if you click on it. I'm not aware of any cases in the higher risk area near us either. Maybe it is because of a lot of outdoor pig units and migrating birds around there.
If you are currently in a protection or surveillance zone when you fill in the eaml2 form (to move pigs) a message flags up and tells you what to do. Apparently, you need a vets permission. What they couldn't tell me was who pays for the vet and just what the vet needs to do.
What they couldn't tell me also is whether once the new zones are applied at the end of Feb, potentially capturing several pig keepers into the net, will they also need to have a vets permission and if so again who will pay.
I have a number to ring animal health tomorrow.
Whether having poultry on the premises as well as pigs makes it worse than not having poultry I don't know yet either.
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BTW - has anyone found a higher resolution version of the map to the one in the DEFRA pdf?
No but it would be good!
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Frustrated that I'm in the proposed high risk area... yet there hasn't been any reports of avian flu in Cornwall since this all began.
Trying to make sense of the map - the nearest "high risk" area to us is in the Barnsley area - can't see why that is different to much of the rest of the area.
BTW - has anyone found a higher resolution version of the map to the one in the DEFRA pdf?
Put your postcode in on the website below and it will tell you whether you're in the high risk zone or not
http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp (http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp)
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Put your postcode in on the website below and it will tell you whether you're in the high risk zone or not
http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp (http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp)
Thanks - you can navigate around that map and see the zones - funny shapes and not obviously centred on anything suspect. Thought the Penistone one might be because of the reservoirs but some of the biggest are outside the zone. Answers on a postcard please ;D
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Still waiting for Wales to tell us what the heck we have to do here post 28th!
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Backinwellies where do we look for a Welsh update?
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I can't get the wretched cut and paste thing to work on the guidance doc but.....
The list of restrictions on a protection or surveillance zone doesn't say you can't move the pigs without a licence (I.e Vet approval) it says you can't move pigs to or from premises which have poultry/ captive birds without a licence.
My reading of that is that having poultry is a bigger risk to my ability to move my pigs than not having poultry given a protection zone could happen anywhere anytime.
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I seem to remember that when H5N1 was on the move it was suspected it had first surfaced in China, where it was common practice for chickens to be kept in cages above pigs, which were possibly the intermediate host for the virus to mutate and affect humans.
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I don't understand these zones, areas are coloured where we havn't heard of a problem.?
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I can't get the wretched cut and paste thing to work on the guidance doc but.....
The list of restrictions on a protection or surveillance zone doesn't say you can't move the pigs without a licence (I.e Vet approval) it says you can't move pigs to or from premises which have poultry/ captive birds without a licence.
My reading of that is that having poultry is a bigger risk to my ability to move my pigs than not having poultry given a protection zone could happen anywhere anytime.
I did say to eaml2 that the guidelines aren't very clear and she replied saying that if you were in PZ or SZ that the eaml2 system will recognise that and a message will come up. Now clearly that has nothing do with whether you have poultry or not. Pigs can only move on a licence anyway but in the PZ and SZ areas it will be a different licence, requiring a vet, not the general licence you would normally use.
After the end of the month the high risk areas are going to have nothing to do with an actual outbreak but the potential risk of outbreak given the vicinity of water where wild birds collect so given pigs are seen as a risk in the current PZ/SZ then you could assume they will be viewed the same in the new zones.
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I don't understand these zones, areas are coloured where we havn't heard of a problem.?
The new zones are about risk potential not just about outbreaks.
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Thank you [member=24672]harmony[/member] I guess that is about as clear as we are going to get. My take on it is that as poultry are specifically mentioned op with respect to pigs in the guidance getting Vet clearance will be harder if you have poultry. I'll sit on it over the weekend but my few aging birds are likely to get dispatched next week.
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The new zones are about risk potential not just about outbreaks.
Does anyone know why the zones are the shape of a 1950s TV screen? ;D
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You might remember Reggie Perin identifying new sales areas by grabbing His secretary Miss Jone's handbag, placing on a map and drawing round it.
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So if DEFRA buy some new PC monitors before the 28th we could all be in trouble!
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Here is the latest list for the cases found in wild birds:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/591265/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/591265/ai-findings-1617.csv/preview)
Not statistically valid but compared to the end of 2016 where there were multiple cases per week with multiple victims we now seem to be down to one case per week with one victim. Room for a little optimism perhaps.
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Its not really a surprise - migration season is ending and the northern birds are going back where they came from (the southern birds returning to the uk are less likely to be a problem as the big resevoirs of infection are in the northern asian area)
Give it another month and that will be that until next winter... of course we need to plan for it being an annual or at least most years thing
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Yes, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Perhaps there is something to be learned if (as we hope and as this trend might suggest) we don't end up with our own reservoir in the UK resident bird population which for some of the vulnerable species e.g gulls, Canada geese etc is quite large and in places quite densely packed.
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Anyone seen any updates on Wales?
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Nope! ::)
Where do you look for Welsh info., Backinwellies?
I've been looking at the Welsh Government page, Environment and Countryside. Avian Flu features on the 'Topic Highlights' but as far as I can see it was last updated on the 3rd Feb. and I can't see anything about when the current zones are lifted on the 28th.
Guessing that it will be much the same as for England but no info as to high risk areas.
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Welsh gov page too .... it seems to have taken a long time after Eng and Scot announcements for Wales to make a decision. .... Just hoping when they do it is a bit less wordy and more informative than DEFRA Eng one!!
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Suspected case in Suffolk. 23,000 broilers to be culled.
Protection zone in place.
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Welsh Government have finally made an announcement, Backinwellies.
Less wordy maybe but totally vague. Surely this is intentional!
It will be interpreted in so many ways ::) depending upon who is reading it.
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Yes I expect it is deliberately vague. Makes me wonder if we are now in a no fly volcanic ash situation. That is, everything is banned and no one is sure if it is useful,or how to un ban it.
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It has been confirmed 22,000 chickens to be culled on the Suffolk/Nortfolk border - worried now that the restrictions won't be lifted on 28 Feb. And it is a bit close to home for us.
I was so looking forward to being able to let the girls out again :( :(
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Dammit!
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Wales introduces new avian influenza Prevention Zone in place until 30 April
https://www.farminguk.com/News/Wales-introduces-new-avian-influenza-Prevention-Zone-in-place-until-30-April_45622.html (https://www.farminguk.com/News/Wales-introduces-new-avian-influenza-Prevention-Zone-in-place-until-30-April_45622.html)
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Wales Only ( Wales is being dealt with as a whole , no high risk areas) .... you might like to see this which is extract from NFU Cwmru email .....
Proposed changes to apply after 28 February:
All keepers of poultry and other captive birds must complete an assessment of their premises and then ensure they adopt one or more of the following:
•house their birds
•keep totally separate from wild birds by use of netting etc.
•allow controlled access to outside areas subject to applying additional risk mitigation measures
This places the onus on the keeper to select the best option most applicable to their circumstances to protect their birds. It also permits poultry keepers to continue to house their birds should they wish to do so voluntarily or if they wish to allow their birds back outside (to protect their free range status) they must ensure that the additional risk mitigation measures are complied with.
In addition to whichever option chosen all keepers of poultry and other captive birds must also ensure that:
•wild birds cannot access feed and water intended for poultry and other captive birds.
•any person who comes into contact with poultry and other captive birds must take all reasonable precautions to avoid the transfer of contamination between premises, including cleansing and disinfection of equipment, vehicles and footwear;
•steps are taken to reduce the movement of people, vehicles or equipment to and from areas where poultry or captive birds are kept to minimise contamination between premises;
•vermin control programmes are implemented, including making the area and buildings where poultry or captive birds are kept inaccessible and unattractive to wild birds;
•housing and equipment is thoroughly cleansed and disinfected at the end of a production cycle;
•the area / range and buildings where poultry or captive birds are kept is regularly checked for signs of wild bird access, kept clean;
•disinfectant, at the right concentration, is kept at all points where people should use it, such as farm entrances and before entering poultry housing or enclosures;
•domestic waterfowl (ducks and geese) are kept separately to, and cannot make contact with, other domestic species;
•Ensure that the site is regularly inspected and kept clean, any spillages are immediately cleaned
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"domestic waterfowl (ducks and geese) are kept separately to, and cannot make contact with, other domestic species"
This is in the England/Scotland document as well. What is the rationale - is it assumed the biosecurity for ducks and geese is inherently less tight or something to do with the apparent susceptibility of waterfowl to AI?
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"domestic waterfowl (ducks and geese) are kept separately to, and cannot make contact with, other domestic species"
This is in the England/Scotland document as well. What is the rationale - is it assumed the biosecurity for ducks and geese is inherently less tight or something to do with the apparent susceptibility of waterfowl to AI?
I can't see the point. It wont matter if it is your chickens, ducks or geese that get it, they will all be culled!
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I noted this too which is a pity as I wanted to put my chickens in with the ducks to give them more room :-(
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Just a reflection on current measures. . . .
You would imagine that the owner of the 22,000 birds culled on the Suffolk/Norfolk border would be following the rules to the letter as it's their livelihood.
But doesn't seem to have done much good does it?
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Just a reflection on current measures. . . .
You would imagine that the owner of the 22,000 birds culled on the Suffolk/Norfolk border would be following the rules to the letter as it's their livelihood.
But doesn't seem to have done much good does it?
I think that's been the case almost from the start? :(.
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Just a reflection on current measures. . . .
You would imagine that the owner of the 22,000 birds culled on the Suffolk/Norfolk border would be following the rules to the letter as it's their livelihood.
But doesn't seem to have done much good does it?
22,000 birds would be more than likely indoor hens and these outfits have extraordinary bio security so I am somewhat confused to how this happened too. What I cant get my head around in these cases its been affecting large industrial farmed birds that have poor resistance and in close proximity to each other. I dont think the plan is particularly scientific if there was a serious outbreak then there would be little you could do and this is like someone said on the TV fighting a flood with a stick. Once a big flock of wild birds have it it would spread like wildfire. I am perplexed to the long term plan with this and whether is is scientifically proved anything. If there are intermittent outbreaks for the next year does that mean the restrictions would be the same. As for reading that ponds etc should be fenced off I howled with laughter who actually writes this stuff?
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Someone probably bought in a consignment of birds from hungary/romania or wherever to save a few quid - just like the BM outbreaks a few years back... "our biosecurity is airtight, except for when we import poultry from high risk zones because its cheap"
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Has everyone in Wales seen the risk assessment form we are supposed to complete ...... One size fits all nonsense again!
Oh and on the duck hen debate ..... Mine are in together, and will stay that way.... I'm not reducing my flock welfare for the nano chance of them getting bird flu ,when they would all be culled anyway.
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Oh drat it.
Not seen any risk assessment forms - is this something that just applies to registered flocks or does it/should it apply to us with just a few hens?
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I would guess that in large commercial flocks a percentage of birds would be expected to die in the normal course of things anyway. Only when the numbers became excessive would the alarm bells start ringing for avian 'flu. The disease could have been circulating through the birds for days before that happened. The symptoms sound similar to mycoplasma, except for the blue neck and head, which I guess would be hard to spot through the feathers.
As I understand it the virus is found in the gut of waterfowl but has in recent years mutated to inhabit the throats of chickens and turkeys.
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Just looked at the self assessment form. 7 pages.....
I want to do the right thing but most of it not appropriate for 5 hens and 5 ducks.
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What I cant get my head around in these cases its been affecting large industrial farmed birds that have poor resistance and in close proximity to each other. I dont think the plan is particularly scientific if there was a serious outbreak then there would be little you could do and this is like someone said on the TV fighting a flood with a stick. Once a big flock of wild birds have it it would spread like wildfire. I am perplexed to the long term plan with this and whether is is scientifically proved anything. If there are intermittent outbreaks for the next year does that mean the restrictions would be the same. As for reading that ponds etc should be fenced off I howled with laughter who actually writes this stuff?
I think the close proximity is the key issue. My wife (a 'proper' doctor) tells me that the US army found that outbreaks of meningitis in troops could be avoided simply by spacing bunks slightly further apart. Although some wild flocks are quite crowded they are nothing compared to an intensive commercial flock and despite all the WWT patrols and at least some of Joe Public on the lookout for dead wild birds there have been remarkably few cases (personally, despite much searching, I have yet to see a wild bird with so much as a feather out of place)
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I can't find a self assessment form?
Where is it?
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I can't find a self assessment form?
Where is it?
This is the link to the Welsh site and the forms are at the bottom to download
http://gov.wales/topics/environmentcountryside/ahw/disease/avianflu/?lang=en (http://gov.wales/topics/environmentcountryside/ahw/disease/avianflu/?lang=en)
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Thanks Bionic..
Now, how to go about filling that in!
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Wow!!
Truthfully, we couldn't meet many of the conditions specified on the self assessment form. I think we're going to have to try moving the hen house and temporary pen to fresh ground, and extending their captivity instead. Oh, and yes of course I've prevented wild birds from going near said fresh ground for at least the past 50 days....... maybe.. :(.
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Stupid form is written for large flocks ... totally unsuitable for small flocks in middle of nowhere .... now where is the n/a key on my keyboard :innocent:
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If it's a Microsoft keyboard you'll find it next to the 'Anglicise' key.
Love the form - pity there's no space for 'comments' - having read it I can think of a few!!
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So what are people in England in low risk zones or in Wales planning to do come the 28th?
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I'm planning on netting off my garden waste heap and area under the leylandi as I've found two dead birds there. I'm going to string up some CDs on the fruit trees to act as a deterrant to wild birds and keep the food and water under cover (I'm hoping my chickens will walk through a clear shower curtain cut into strips to get to it).
I'm gonna do the same for the geese maybe putting a few hurdles around the paddling pools and covering with tarp.
That sound ok to people? We are not in a high risk area.
Dans
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OH has spent hours putting up lines of baler twine as our run is much too big to net, going to hang strips of cut up feed bags and old CDs local primary school are going to make scarecrows for me and food and water will be under cover. Geese are in the next run with food under cover and just a bucket to drink from, they have a paddling pool but it just gets filled to slow them a splash around then I tip it out again. Water used to come from an Ibc container filled with rain water but will now be filled from the tap. I also have buckets to keep outside the gates with Sorgene disinfectant. I'm sure my girls will be happy to get out if their stable although they look remarkably well and are laying well too.
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So what are people in England in low risk zones or in Wales planning to do come the 28th?
I shall carry on showering, and complete change of clothing every time I enter and exit my environmentally controlled and completely enclosed hen run.
I vacuum my garden daily to remove all traces of wild bird feathers or droppings. This is collected in a disposable paper bag, which I then seal in a plastic bin bag and place in the bin.
I have one of those big weather balloons flying over my garden to deter wild birds.
My dogs have been placed in kennels for the duration of the epidemic to prevent them carrying any infection picked up while on a walk.
I have fitted an intercom system to my gate, and go there to collect my mail and receive visitors. No one is allowed past.
My pigs, however, as not deemed to be a species affected by the virus, are free to fly around as they wish.
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I can see that you have taken minimal precautions Landroverroy but feel that you should try harder.
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I've prevented wild birds from going near said fresh ground for at least the past 50 days.
Yes, I thought being told to do this for 50 days in a document published less than 28 days from the implementation of the regs was a nice touch. No bother - just pull the tarp off the Tardis and jump-start it.
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Unfortunately I already used the tarp to cover the chicken run...... and I had to use the Tardis to house our ducks. You wouldn't think it would be big enough, but......
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Being serious for a minute though, the Welsh Self Assessment is NOT a risk assessment; it's a checklist that enables you to show that you're complying with the various bits of guidance:
This self assessment form will assist all keepers of poultry and other captive birds to provide assurance they are compliant with the required measures that apply within the zone. The required risk mitigation measures should be considered as the minimum expected. All keepers are encouraged where possible to exceed these.
The problem is, the questions are then worded in a very specific and prescriptive way, for example:
"A3) What robust (written) records do you have in place relating to movements of people, vehicles and equipment into or out of your bird area?"
Now, a risk assessment for a smallholder might be "this is my private house, so the only vehicles, people or equipment in the area shared with poultry are mine or me. Because these vehicles are not visiting other farms or poultry production areas, the risk of introducing infection via this route is considered low".
Naturally, as a responsible keeper, I will do everything reasonably practicable to comply with the guidance and minimise the risk. However, edicts like this are really unhelpful for the likes of us. For example, the only true answer to question A3 is "no records are kept", which then opens me up to the accusation that I have not done the "minimum expected".
Repeat for the other twenty questions and you can see where the difficulty lies for smallholders.
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Here is the link to the BPA site re Avian Flu and Pigs
http://www.britishpigs.org/news_Avian_Influenza.htm (http://www.britishpigs.org/news_Avian_Influenza.htm)
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I have fitted an intercom system to my gate, and go there to collect my mail
It occurred to me a while back that I should be disinfecting the post - especially anything from DEFRA. Obviously it makes it harder to read (difficult, I'll admit, for a DEFRA document...)
Anyway, it reminded me of this video (for reasons that become apparent if you watch it through):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArMf6xbMsLI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArMf6xbMsLI)
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Womble what a good answer. I will copy it. Now if you can just get to work on the remaining questions.
Maybe answers such as the one you have given are sufficient. Who knows?
I plan to take simple common sense measures. Like Dan's, I will keep food and water inside and make some 'curtains' to deter wild bird entry, drain any stagnant water out of pots etc. Stop feeding the wild birds ((which saddens me), etc
My daughter likes to look at an ex batt forum. Someone on there said they were confused by DEFRAS new measures and rang to speak to someone to clarify the position. They were apparently told there few hens could be let out to free range in their garden provided that food and water were indoors. They said that they asked about bird droppings and were told not to worry. :-\
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My daughter likes to look at an ex batt forum. Someone on there said they were confused by DEFRAS new measures and rang to speak to someone to clarify the position. They were apparently told there few hens could be let out to free range in their garden provided that food and water were indoors. They said that they asked about bird droppings and were told not to worry. :-\
So- if you've just got a few hens you can let them out in the garden anyway. That would appear to be good news although I would definitely have asked for the name of the person who proclaimed it. (And hands up all those that had secretly been doing that anyway!)
However, I don't agree with not feeding the wild birds. If you have a set place to fed them then they will know to go there for their feed. If you usually feed them and then stop they are likely to roam a lot further afield in search of food, with potentially more risk of spreading the virus. (And that's assuming the small native birds are carrying it anyway.) If no one feeds them they will die. We could then potentially lose more wild birds through starvation than have been killed by the bird flu.
So effectively we could end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Mmmmm, OH did suggest that we fence off an area and feed the wild birds in there. Maybe that's an option. We feed all year round and I have to admit that it doesn't feel right not to carry on.
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However, I don't agree with not feeding the wild birds. If you have a set place to fed them then they will know to go there for their feed. If you usually feed them and then stop they are likely to roam a lot further afield in search of food, with potentially more risk of spreading the virus. (And that's assuming the small native birds are carrying it anyway.) If no one feeds them they will die. We could then potentially lose more wild birds through starvation than have been killed by the bird flu.
So effectively we could end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Totally agree with you. We feed the wild birds to one side of the house (this leaves a way through for us that isn't over where they congregate) and I'm convinced that it reduces the number of birds in the fields and around the pond. Only the moorhens (that are resident on the pond anyway and as such I think are unlikely vectors) and the heron are in evidence and I think I'm now winning on the heron by going out every 20 minutes or so.
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the heron are in evidence and I think I'm now winning on the heron by going out every 20 minutes or so.
Buy a starting pistol and cartridges and shoot a couple of shots over the area it frequents every so often - it'll get the message pretty quickly, and entirely wihin the law - especially if it is a pink one like mine :innocent:
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Just one case found in wild birds again last week (Whooper Swan in Norfolk as per the previous week):-
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/avian-influenza-in-wild-birds-winter-2016-to-2017 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/avian-influenza-in-wild-birds-winter-2016-to-2017)
Fingers crossed for a clear week this time.
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Any members living in this part of France should know that the slaughter of 600,000 Blue Gasconne ducks starts on Thursday in Landes. Theoretically it includes us in the Gers as well, but they were all slaughtered last month. This is a new outbreak of the virulent H5N8 strain, as opposed to the H5N5 strain previously. It may well include chickens, but nothing has been said yet. this will take the slaughter total in this small Region (size of Wales) to over a million.
It was last week when we noticed huge flocks of the European Crane migrating North over this area. Don't know if they were carrying it?
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If there's a big, closely confined, flock a small problem turns into a big one. I've printed off and filled in the Welsh Government form (although I'm not in Wales). It's now filed and I feel I've demonstrated "due diligence".
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My personal belief is that the regulations are nothing to do with wild bird nor domestic flock health. One aspect is the government covering their backsides against compensation claims if they did nothing and poultry keepers suffered large losses. But by far the most important aspect, and the reason for the emphasis on poultry, pigs and waterfowl, is the risk of the virus multiplying, mutating and becoming pathogenic to humans, which, history tells us, is most likely in poultry, waterfowl and pigs.
So little backyard flocks are probably very low risk, as is cross contamination with wild birds in back gardens. Not no risk, though, and there is still the issue of the impact on your neighbours if a case were to occur.
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Our poor Scottish birds are stuck in till April now - https://www.sruc.ac.uk/info/20005/sac_consulting/1760/avian_influenza_prevention_zone (https://www.sruc.ac.uk/info/20005/sac_consulting/1760/avian_influenza_prevention_zone) :huff:
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The way I read it is they are still not insisting you house them, they are asking if you can concider if it's practically possible to house them.
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My personal belief is that the regulations are nothing to do with wild bird nor domestic flock health. One aspect is the government covering their backsides against compensation claims if they did nothing and poultry keepers suffered large losses. But by far the most important aspect, and the reason for the emphasis on poultry, pigs and waterfowl, is the risk of the virus multiplying, mutating and becoming pathogenic to humans, which, history tells us, is most likely in poultry, waterfowl and pigs.
So little backyard flocks are probably very low risk, as is cross contamination with wild birds in back gardens. Not no risk, though, and there is still the issue of the impact on your neighbours if a case were to occur.
Ideally all those working in large poultry units, and those working with waterfowl in reserves etc, should wear respirators when in with the birds. I'm not joking here - birds can be infected with 'flu from us, and we can be infected with 'flu from them, and either way mutations can occur. Nothing will eliminate the risk, but we can try our best. As swine 'flu is a potential risk to both humans and (I assume) birds, then pig restrictions seem sensible.
I'm happy to keep my poultry inside as they have the whole polytunnel to themselves and love it. It would be more difficult if the restrictions continue through the growing season.
Even if some of us feel cynical about government reasons for imposing the restrictions, I do believe we have to comply with good will. Influenza epidemics are one of the huge human killers in the world, akin to The Black Death.
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Our poor Scottish birds are stuck in till April now - https://www.sruc.ac.uk/info/20005/sac_consulting/1760/avian_influenza_prevention_zone (https://www.sruc.ac.uk/info/20005/sac_consulting/1760/avian_influenza_prevention_zone) :huff:
Though that would be the ideal, it's not how I read the information in your link though, Doganjo. In particular:
Do I have to house my birds?
It is recognised that keepers of some small flocks may not be able to house their birds indoors without putting the health and welfare of their birds at risk. Under these circumstances there is a requirement to do what is practicable to minimise the risk to your birds and to those of others. You should consider if you can take steps to keep them separate from wild birds, such as: feeding and watering birds inside, making sure feed stores are protected against wild birds or vermin and removing any wild-bird attractants (removing feeders or filling in puddles) from the area around your birds.
Whether or not you are able to house your birds, you and anyone else in contact with your birds should avoid contact with all other poultry as far as possible.
I definitely feel that the health and welfare of our birds is already severely compromised by the conditions we're having to keep them in at the moment. I can also achieve all of the practical measures mentioned in the quote above, so really for us, I think that letting the birds out in a careful manner, with various precautions noted and assessed has to be the best option.
The one that's difficult for us is the requirement to keep ducks and hens separate. The only practical way we can do that is to keep the ducks housed, but we really need the space back for both hay storage and lambing. I'm having to fetch small quantities of hay every two weeks at the moment, which has become a running joke with the seller!
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The one that's difficult for us is the requirement to keep ducks and hens separate.
I don't have anywhere to separate mine either and they've been together from day one so I see little point ion separating them now with the incubation period as it is.
My worry is how I keep the wild birds away from their food and water. I can give them a little more freedom in a secondary fenced area, but they need access to their inside quarters during the day for laying, food and water. So a pigeon could fly in just as easily as one of my ducks or hens could toddle in - in theory rather than practice anyway, since my three French nutters chase them all the time. :innocent:
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The one that's difficult for us is the requirement to keep ducks and hens separate.
I don't have anywhere to separate mine either and they've been together from day one so I see little point ion separating them now with the incubation period as it is.
My worry is how I keep the wild birds away from their food and water. I can give them a little more freedom in a secondary fenced area, but they need access to their inside quarters during the day for laying, food and water. So a pigeon could fly in just as easily as one of my ducks or hens could toddle in - in theory rather than practice anyway, since my three French nutters chase them all the time. :innocent:
I use a grandpas feeder. Ordinarily its very practical but with these restrictions it has come into its own even more. chickens and ducks can use it but wild birds can't get at their food.
Water will take a bit more thought but I'm sure I will get there.
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I use a grandpa's feeder too and (after some initial hesitation shown by the birds) it has been one of the best investments I have made.
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What's a grandpas feeder - I can't afford to buy one for just a few weeks use - mine usually scrabble on the ground if they are outside, but have trays inside just now. I stay with them till they've eaten it all because of the rats. I'll probably still do that, but can't figure out water.
I do think it is highly unlikely any wild birds will go through a 30 cm high pop hole though.
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A grandpas feeder is a galvanised holder with the food inside. The birds have to stand on the treddle for the lid to open. It closes as they get off. They aren't cheap though.
There is a small pop hole on my coop too but I do sometimes get wild birds inside.
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I do think it is highly unlikely any wild birds will go through a 30 cm high pop hole though.
So there's your risk assessment.
What prevents wild birds from sharing the food you put out for your poultry?"
"Food is only provided inside the hen house, so it's only accessible to wild birds during the day, when they'd have to go through a 30cm pop hole to reach it. They can't see it from the outside, so they ordinarily wouldn't risk trying. To prevent rats, I only feed the hens when I'm there, so I, and my very excitable dogs are always on hand to chase any wild birds away."
That sounds a lot like 'all practical measures' to me!!
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Thanks, Womble. I'm reassured xx OK next is the knitting session - free any time after this weekend. Do I have to step through jeyes fluid to get into the house :innocent: Do you have any lambs?
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I do think it is highly unlikely any wild birds will go through a 30 cm high pop hole though.
If crows/magpies can go in after eggs I donto think LBJ's would have any problem :-).
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I've seen wild birds flying in and out of our pop hole, presumably going for the food. I am going to buy a clear shower curtain and cut it into strips, then see if I can get my birds to go through it to get to thier food and water. I read about it somewhere a long while ago but have never tried. I'll let you know how it goes.
Dans
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I'll probably still do that, but can't figure out water.
Nipple drinker, either large one(s) for rabbits or buy your own nipples off eBay and screw into any size bottle. To train them, put it above their existing water and leave it unscrewed a bit so that it drips a tiny bit - the movement attracts them and they should have it figured out within a day or two. Quite high, they like to stretch their necks up to it. But no good if it's below freezing and I guess if you've got rain water puddles that everyone's drinking out of then not at all useful!
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Or Dans, use an old feed bag and cut 'fringes' to make a similar shower curtain.
We've used this method to darken nest boxes. Worked fine.
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Confirmed outbreak at farm in Northumberland.
Small flock of 35 birds. :'(
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I'll probably still do that, but can't figure out water.
Nipple drinker, either large one(s) for rabbits or buy your own nipples off eBay and screw into any size bottle. To train them, put it above their existing water and leave it unscrewed a bit so that it drips a tiny bit - the movement attracts them and they should have it figured out within a day or two. Quite high, they like to stretch their necks up to it. But no good if it's below freezing and I guess if you've got rain water puddles that everyone's drinking out of then not at all useful!
I'm on a limited pension, I can't afford all these things, and I have an auto immune disease so i can't do any alterations. I'll do what I am able to do within my means, can't do more, very low risk here anyway, only pigeons and my dogs keep them at bay.
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Fringed food bag, Doganjo?
Held in place with staples maybe?
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Might try that when I come home, away this weeked, son does enough without asking him to do more. Would it work with plastic ones?
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Yes, that's what we used.
Enjoy your weekend.
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I'm seriously confused now. So far they are still imprisoned separately until I understand. The rule of keeping wild birds from food does not make any sense whatsoever, once you let them out they eat what they find and where wild birds live, eat and poop. So either I let them out or I don't. One of our local farmers seems to think the restrictions are only for England and Wales from today.
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Hidden in the BEEB business news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39110992 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39110992)
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What are the rules for Scotland?
Do you have a map showing high risk areas?
Been in our local paper about the differences between Welsh and English rules.
On the English side of the Severn river there are shaded areas showing poultry to be in high risk areas and should be still housed or in netted runs while on the Welsh side they can free range provided that biosecurity measures are in place.
Hey ho
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Thankfully, I think the Welsh have made the best decision.
I think Scotland are ALL housed until April, iirc
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No, birds in Scotland can now be let out provided certain conditions are met (similar to Wales). Our main problem is the requirement to 'drain all waterlogged areas'. After the rain we had last week, that's basically the whole of our smallholding!
I don't *think* Scotland has any areas defined as high risk though - I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong!
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Thanks Womble, not too bad then, hopefully the water will drain out soon ! :)
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So..... having filled out the checklist, netted off the pond and waited for the ground to dry out a bit, we let the hens out this morning.
Having been on mud and shavings for three months, they made a beeline straight for the dry ground at the back of the hayshed and started to dust-bathe. TWO HOURS later, they're still at it! (BTW, I checked for mites etc last week and they were all fine).
This confirms to me that we really have compromised their welfare by keeping them in an inadequate run since November. We started keeping hens because we didn't like the conditions birds were being kept in commercially, so to have to impose even worse conditions on our own birds is upsetting to say the least.
Also spare a thought for the ducks, who are still inside because they're not allowed to talk to the hens any more :(.
Our next task is to have a really good think about what we need to do in advance to make things more pleasant the next time this happens.
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I have a brook flowing between my house back garden and the poultry pasture!
That means I can't let them out as I'm in the high risk area! This week mallards started coming back and paddling in our brook. There is no way I can fence it of without my geese being locked in the roofed run :gloomy:
Just rang the melton mowbray market, they said the normal Tuesday poultey auction is still closed - ban still on - they said to ring them in couple of weeks...
So sad! Once they open there's gonna so much madness on there!
I just hope they open when I'm on holiday from work otherwise I will be very very upset! I took those holidays just to be able to buy my new hens from Melton!!!
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My ducks are still in... still fed up and definitely not laying :gloomy: my hens aren't so bad as their original enclosure has just been netted but the ducks are really cheesed off, and not allowed out until end of April now at least. I need to get the drakes culled really as they are starting to pick on the girls :(
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Good point by Womble about welfare. The fact that birds are not laying confirms they are stressed and I'm surprised there haven't been reports of sickness (like Myco flareups), as when stressed their immune system is compromised. I would say they are now more likely to contract Avian Flu or any other viruses when released.
We are also surrounded by H5N8 now, but only ducks and geese have been slaughtered and there is no restriction on housing chickens as there was last year.
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I have a brook flowing between my house back garden and the poultry pasture!
That means I can't let them out as I'm in the high risk area! This week mallards started coming back and paddling in our brook. There is no way I can fence it of without my geese being locked in the roofed run :gloomy:
Since we took our ducks off the pond we have had visits by the heron. Before we never had visits by the heron or any wildfowl even though they visit the river close by.
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My 5 hens are now out and very happy. dust baths were the first thing they went for. As my girls are all getting on in years I don't think I will be putting them through another winter like this. Although they had loads of space in my barn its clear they have so missed the outside freedom. I also noticed there was a gang up on bulling one of the smaller hens to the point she just would go and hide in behind the straw bales. Now she will not even go into their indoor stable at night. I have to catch her and put her in her own little pen just incase the ponies stand on her during the night. Makes me quite sad to see her on her own.
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I have a brook flowing between my house back garden and the poultry pasture!
That means I can't let them out as I'm in the high risk area! This week mallards started coming back and paddling in our brook. There is no way I can fence it of without my geese being locked in the roofed run :gloomy:
Since we took our ducks off the pond we have had visits by the heron. Before we never had visits by the heron or any wildfowl even though they visit the river close by.
Same here! I actually saw the big grey heron yesterday! Took a video of the smaller white one the other day as well. I keep seeing them regularly.
Plus dozens of pigeons + blackbirds etc etc
And now the mallards...
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Well, we had some guys cutting some trees down last week but the job has gone over. I can't let the chickens and geese out until they've finished :-( But we hae put up the shower curtain over the feeding area today and they are all walking through it so that is one positive. I am so looking forward to letting them out. I think my girls will be straight to the dust bath too. At least they are laying now so hopefully not feeling too bad.
Dans
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I called DEFRA this week asking if I can let the girls out, and no-one was prepared to give a definite yes, just kept saying check the rules on the website. As we aren't in any sort of infection zone they are going outside - they are still laying but really want to get outside when it is sunny.
Of course, sod's law, there were two foxes in my neighbours garden last night . . . got to make sure the electric fencing is working properly.
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I must be sitting on it, does anyone have a link to the Scottish regulations since Febr. 28th? I always just get to the map where Scotland is cut off and no specifics.
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A week ago we were in a higher risk area but when I check the interactive map last night the boundaries have been revised and we are now just outside.
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North Fife duckling - have pm you
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For anyone in Wales this is a link to a briefing by the senior vet to the Welsh Government
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjY_HH5IN5M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjY_HH5IN5M)
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Hi everyone,
I've had my hens under cover since DEFRA announced the measures and touch wood, all seem fine and healthy. I have been keeping my pigs in with the chickens, but someone mentioned today that I shouldn't do that because either pigs can pass Avian flu or catch Avian flu (he'd been told this in passing, so he wasn't sure it was true). I do walk my pigs back and forth to the run , so upon reflection I'm guessing they could potentially pass something on but no signs of illness in anyone yet. Has anyone else heard of this? Should I now keep them separate forever? Thanks a lot for any help you can give!
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I think they do need to be seperate, it's because of the risk of the virus mutating to be transmittable to humans via adaptation to the pigs iirc :)
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Hi everyone,
I've had my hens under cover since DEFRA announced the measures and touch wood, all seem fine and healthy. I have been keeping my pigs in with the chickens, but someone mentioned today that I shouldn't do that because either pigs can pass Avian flu or catch Avian flu (he'd been told this in passing, so he wasn't sure it was true). I do walk my pigs back and forth to the run , so upon reflection I'm guessing they could potentially pass something on but no signs of illness in anyone yet. Has anyone else heard of this? Should I now keep them separate forever? Thanks a lot for any help you can give!
You should not be keeping pigs and poultry together because pigs can catch avian flu. Take a look at the British Pig Association web site for more information on avian flu and pigs.
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As I understand it the deadly H5N1 virus developed in China, where it's common to keep poultry in cages above pig pens. Pigs, being quite similar in physiology to humans, can act as the link between species.
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I challenged a neighbour about letting their chickens out because if theirs get bird flu mine will probably be destroyed as well.
He said that he had rung Defra and was told that as long as there had been no incidents within 30 miles then it was ok to let them out.
Anyone else heard anything like that?
On the Defra maps we are in one of the high risk areas.
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I wish someone would come up with a clear guide. This picture thing seems to suggest a scarecrow is enough to keep wild birds off your free range section but how many smallholdings with free ranging birds for all or part of daylight hours, don't have trees, bushes and puddles, and how do you police wild bird poo on a 10 or even 1 acre range with any real success? Neighbour 1 has bird feeders out over a fence from me. Neighbour 2 has been releasing young pheasant and partridge throughout the lockdown, many of which end in my garden/fields because they don't get shot there. Neighbour 3 has ducks and hens and is half way between me and a loch frequented by swans, geese, ducks and all kinds of overhead flying results.
Free range isn't just commercial penned areas with staff to patrol, the backyard keepers get a lot of flak for non compliance but the guidance is so messy and the advice given by government officers so variable that it is a wonder anyone risks anything as the fines and criticism are the only certainties, not how to actually manage a real life smallholding with laying birds on it!
Mine are still penned and I'm seeing advice that they can be let out but I daren't take it in case the interpretations or government guidance is wrong. I just want to open the gate and see birds actually range free again, before April ideally!
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I challenged a neighbour about letting their chickens out because if theirs get bird flu mine will probably be destroyed as well.
There is no policy of culling adjacent flocks - just the affected ones.
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Well I put mine out today with their food and water sheltered by plastic strips. They are sooooo happy despite the rain and mud. I have mucked out and scrubbed out the shelter and sheep are going in ready for shearing.
DEFRA, when I called them, wouldn't give an answer to my question of ' I am not in a risk area of any sort, can I let my chickens out?' just kept telling me to check their website for guidelines - covering their arses I think.
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I also let my chickens out but with all food and water under cover out of the way of wild birds. They are so happy.
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I was at services on the M4 earlier today, and got chatting to the trucker in front of me in the queue for coffee. He was bringing in a load of thousands of live chickens from Romania for one of the big suppliers (i'm not saying which for obvious reasons)
So while all the back yard people are bending over backwards to keep up with whatever restriction defra like to place, big suppliers are importing live birds from an area where Bird Flu is endemic ... yeah that makes perfect sense. (bangs head in frustration)
As I said way up thread , bird flu 2017 brought to you by the same geniuses who did such a great job of Foot and Mouth 2001
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I challenged a neighbour about letting their chickens out because if theirs get bird flu mine will probably be destroyed as well.
He said that he had rung Defra and was told that as long as there had been no incidents within 30 miles then it was ok to let them out.
Anyone else heard anything like that?
On the Defra maps we are in one of the high risk areas.
Pretty certain that if you're in a high risk area, the chickens should not be out. I'm in one too and despite having NO incidents in this area, all my birds are still shut in. I'd be REALLY annoyed if someone close by was letting them out and putting my flock at risk too.
He might have phoned DEFRA - they have no idea what they're doing
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I was at services on the M4 earlier today, and got chatting to the trucker in front of me in the queue for coffee. He was bringing in a load of thousands of live chickens from Romania for one of the big suppliers (i'm not saying which for obvious reasons)
So while all the back yard people are bending over backwards to keep up with whatever restriction defra like to place, big suppliers are importing live birds from an area where Bird Flu is endemic ... yeah that makes perfect sense. (bangs head in frustration)
As I said way up thread , bird flu 2017 brought to you by the same geniuses who did such a great job of Foot and Mouth 2001
What kind of idiots would even allow that????
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We have a large red sign on our back gate - BIOSECURITY DO NOT ENTER - plus a foot dip in a bright red bucket right in front of the gate. Today the oil delivery came and our tank is a few yards inside the back gate. We had spoken to the delivery company in advance for them to let the driver know he was to dip his feet.
So he arrived, squeezed past the foot dip without using it, opened the gate with the big sign on and marched straight through. He didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I asked him to use the foot dip (a bit late I know but it was to make a point) and he was amazed when he went back and looked at the sign on the gate - he just hadn't seen it. He probably would have missed the sign if it had been in flashing dayglo orange, with red stop lights. So he had been making deliveries in a rural area, where there are plenty of poultry keepers, for three months without taking any precautions against transferring disease. I'm sure he's not the only one, and I'm sure by his blank face when I was telling him about Bird 'flu that he won't remember a word when he makes his next delivery.
What can you do? Just your best I suppose
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I have several local farmers that produce eggs for the supermarkets + when I asked my closest farmer today he told me he can let his 14,000 hens out if he wants to ?? This is what the Defra visitor told him ::)
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I hope that the events of this Winter may prove of some small help to poultry keepers in the future: large-scale poultry farms with multiple sites MUST improve biosecurity between production units; smaller scale keepers must have contingency plans in place for housing their flocks at fairly short notice.
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I was at services on the M4 earlier today, and got chatting to the trucker in front of me in the queue for coffee. He was bringing in a load of thousands of live chickens from Romania for one of the big suppliers (i'm not saying which for obvious reasons)
So while all the back yard people are bending over backwards to keep up with whatever restriction defra like to place, big suppliers are importing live birds from an area where Bird Flu is endemic ... yeah that makes perfect sense. (bangs head in frustration)
As I said way up thread , bird flu 2017 brought to you by the same geniuses who did such a great job of Foot and Mouth 2001
What kind of idiots would even allow that? ???
The idiots who have done the risk assessments.
Whilst we are all getting in a flap over a few birds there is a poultry industry out there trying to keep its head above water and I am afraid that means replacement birds in their thousands.
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I challenged a neighbour about letting their chickens out because if theirs get bird flu mine will probably be destroyed as well.
He said that he had rung Defra and was told that as long as there had been no incidents within 30 miles then it was ok to let them out.
Anyone else heard anything like that?
On the Defra maps we are in one of the high risk areas.
Pretty certain that if you're in a high risk area, the chickens should not be out. I'm in one too and despite having NO incidents in this area, all my birds are still shut in. I'd be REALLY annoyed if someone close by was letting them out and putting my flock at risk too.
He might have phoned DEFRA - they have no idea what they're doing
No-one can let their poultry out unless they meet guidelines. You can let your poultry into netted areas in a high risk area as long as you meet the guidelines or you can opt to keep them in.
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I get that the industry needs thousands of replacement birds but why import them from the east where birdflu is wide spread ... money of course is the answer, importing romanian chickens is cheaper than breeding british chickens QED , never mind if you import a contagious disease, because you can just blame it on wild birds...
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Can you get the replacements from this country in enough numbers? Yes, money is a big factor. Margins are tight for poultry farms and they just got tighter since bird flu.
Animals are imported and exported all the time. People move around too from places with contagious diseases.
Are you seriously saying bird flu isn't transmitted by wild birds and they are just being blamed?
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Are you seriously saying bird flu isn't transmitted by wild birds and they are just being blamed?
It rather depends who you ask - this recent paper is one of several that cast doubt on the role of wild birds:-
http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf (http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf)
“The specific role of wild birds particularly in the long-distance transmission of the virus, if existent, remains unclear. ”
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No, i'm saying that its insane to be importing birds from a known reservoir of bird flu into large commercial poultry farms, whilst at the same time going to great effort to stop infection from wild birds where the risk of infection is much lower in the latter case than it is in the former.
At the end of the day is a chicken in an enclosed shed more likely to get bird flu from a passing duck or from an infected chicken in the next run ?
Just like the turkeys from Hungary thing last time round.
At the end of the day its all about money - its cheaper to import birds than it is to breed them here (they could be bred here if there was a market for them) but that would mean more expensive eggs and more expensive 'cheap' meat - and the fact that defra let them do this shows a lack of commitment to actual containment of the disease
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Are you seriously saying bird flu isn't transmitted by wild birds and they are just being blamed?
It rather depends who you ask - this recent paper is one of several that cast doubt on the role of wild birds:-
http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf (http://www.cms.int/sites/default/files/Scientific%20Task%20Force%20on%20Avian%20Influenza%20and%20Wild%20Birds%20H5N8%20HPAI_December%202016_FINAL.pdf)
“The specific role of wild birds particularly in the long-distance transmission of the virus, if existent, remains unclear. ”
It still remains that the virus passes between wild and domestic birds whether you discount the long distance transmission theory.
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No, i'm saying that its insane to be importing birds from a known reservoir of bird flu into large commercial poultry farms, whilst at the same time going to great effort to stop infection from wild birds where the risk of infection is much lower in the latter case than it is in the former.
At the end of the day is a chicken in an enclosed shed more likely to get bird flu from a passing duck or from an infected chicken in the next run ?
Just like the turkeys from Hungary thing last time round.
At the end of the day its all about money - its cheaper to import birds than it is to breed them here (they could be bred here if there was a market for them) but that would mean more expensive eggs and more expensive 'cheap' meat - and the fact that defra let them do this shows a lack of commitment to actual containment of the disease
I can see your concern about the importation but I am guessing that many thousands of birds have been imported since the first UK case and we have yet to see a rapid increase in cases. Also where is the link between imported birds and those backyard flocks and the pheasant hatchery.
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I don't doubt that the backyard flocks and the pheasant hatchery got it from wild birds - but thats not really the point.
Defra arent putting these measures in place to protect small backyard flocks - they don't in all honesty give a good toss about those, the point of all these precautions is to stop bird flu becoming endemic in the uk because of the impact that would have on the poultry industry
so you have to wonder why we are bothering if the poultry industry then decide to import thousands of potentially infected birds from over seas
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Looking at the latest DEFRA update here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/598511/uoa-avian-flu-europe-update12.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/598511/uoa-avian-flu-europe-update12.pdf)
The map shows Romania not having much more in terms of outbreaks than the UK. Germany and Poland look much worse. So if we're importing maybe it isn't such a bad source!
Given that large scale poultry farms aren't likely to mix recently arrived birds with existing flocks, especially under the current measures, I wonder whether transmission like this is any more likely than transmission from other routes? Indeed, even if there were lots of UK stocks, would it be any less risky moving those from site to site looking at the spread of UK cases? I've not seen anything suggesting that the UK outbreaks were linked to imported birds. So based on the information available it would seem unjustified to suggest DEFRA aren't committed to limiting spread because they permit imports to continue.
The point about protecting an industry is probably very valid. Yet the reality is that it is we consumers (not necessarily us discussing here, but wider society) who want cheap meat drive prices down which ultimately leads to compromise somewhere.
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It still remains that the virus passes between wild and domestic birds whether you discount the long distance transmission theory.
Well, from the point of view of the risk assessment you mentioned in an earlier post what it has to say about transmission through trade is more important:-
"Considering the extensive poultry trade flows, including those between H5N8-affected regions (cf. UN Comtrade statistics), the risk of HPAI virus circulation by poultry production and trade remains significantly high."
But as we all know risk assessments, like other management tools, can, and unfortunately often are, used to give the answer you want not the right one. I was involved in the Cassini mission and a Gantt chart was prepared to show the instrumentation would be ready in time for launch (despite we scientists/engineers saying it wouldn't). You hardly need me to tell you that the launch was eventually put back in the face of reality.
In the current situation I think this sums it up nicely:-
http://quotesgram.com/img/risk-management-funny-quotes/12699548/ (http://quotesgram.com/img/risk-management-funny-quotes/12699548/)
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I don't doubt that the backyard flocks and the pheasant hatchery got it from wild birds - but thats not really the point.
Defra arent putting these measures in place to protect small backyard flocks - they don't in all honesty give a good toss about those, the point of all these precautions is to stop bird flu becoming endemic in the uk because of the impact that would have on the poultry industry
so you have to wonder why we are bothering if the poultry industry then decide to import thousands of potentially infected birds from over seas
So, what do you suggest the poultry industry does then? Stop operating until there is no bird flu here or elsewhere? In the meantime I suppose we could look forward to cheap eggs and chicken from abroad.
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It still remains that the virus passes between wild and domestic birds whether you discount the long distance transmission theory.
Well, from the point of view of the risk assessment you mentioned in an earlier post what it has to say about transmission through trade is more important:-
"Considering the extensive poultry trade flows, including those between H5N8-affected regions (cf. UN Comtrade statistics), the risk of HPAI virus circulation by poultry production and trade remains significantly high."
But as we all know risk assessments, like other management tools, can, and unfortunately often are, used to give the answer you want not the right one. I was involved in the Cassini mission and a Gantt chart was prepared to show the instrumentation would be ready in time for launch (despite we scientists/engineers saying it wouldn't). You hardly need me to tell you that the launch was eventually put back in the face of reality.
In the current situation I think this sums it up nicely:-
http://quotesgram.com/img/risk-management-funny-quotes/12699548/ (http://quotesgram.com/img/risk-management-funny-quotes/12699548/)
Whether you agree the with risk assessment, the measures in place, the movement of thousands of birds from abroad to the UK, the role of wild birds etc the number of cases in the UK doesn't appear to be out of control but maybe that is luck not management?
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Whether you agree the with risk assessment, the measures in place, the movement of thousands of birds from abroad to the UK, the role of wild birds etc the number of cases in the UK doesn't appear to be out of control but maybe that is luck not management?
Given that there is much that is not understood about the virus, for example the possible spread by aerosol which is a game changer as regards biosecurity requirements, it may indeed be a matter of luck which is not how risk management should work. It is not risk management to lean a bit further out of a high window because you haven't fallen out yet....
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Absolutely!
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So, what do we do?
Unfortunately, understanding the virus may take a very long time.
As for risk management is it leaning out of the window that is the risk, leaning out too far or being high up? Surely it depends on whether you need to lean out of the window at all and what you consider the risk of leaning out to be.
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....and yet ..... bird gatherings are banned in the UK until 30th April. It seems to me that aerosol dispersal of the virus must surely be a factor, whereas there appears to have been a lot of emphasis on poop in the prevention advice so far this Winter.
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So, what do we do?
Unfortunately, understanding the virus may take a very long time.
As for risk management is it leaning out of the window that is the risk, leaning out too far or being high up? Surely it depends on whether you need to lean out of the window at all and what you consider the risk of leaning out to be.
Well, I guess if you don't understand the virus you can perhaps discount thought-transfer and teleportation as methods of spread and assume all else is possible and operate on that basis. Even if the source in Romania is clear, driving live birds across Europe has all the biosecurity benefits of surgeons taking a patient mid op. for a breath of fresh air in the car-park.
And why live chickens? We have not lost masses of chickens by culling and for the meat trade they don't need to be brought in live. So presumably this is simply replacing layers for egg production. Surely breeding them in the UK has to be less hazardous.
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driving live birds across Europe has all the biosecurity benefits of surgeons taking a patient mid op. for a breath of fresh air in the car-park
That's hardly an appropriate comparison - the chickens aren't being cut open and don't have a need for medical treatment for starters. How much of a biosecurity risk transport is will depend on lots of things, such as the mode of transmission and the proximity needed for it, the transport route taken, the ability of the virus to persist in the environment away from the host and so on.
Surely breeding them in the UK has to be less hazardous.
Logically we'd think so, but there are so many factors at play (that frankly we're guessing at) that it is entirely feasible to envisage a scenario where the UK element of the process is the riskiest part. In such a scenario the longer time spent in the UK for birds bred here could actually increase hazard. I'm not suggesting this is the case, just that it is within the range of possibilities. And as you said, when we don't understand things fully we can discount science fiction but everything else remains possible and we should operate on that basis.
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So, what do we do?
Unfortunately, understanding the virus may take a very long time.
As for risk management is it leaning out of the window that is the risk, leaning out too far or being high up? Surely it depends on whether you need to lean out of the window at all and what you consider the risk of leaning out to be.
Well, I guess if you don't understand the virus you can perhaps discount thought-transfer and teleportation as methods of spread and assume all else is possible and operate on that basis. Even if the source in Romania is clear, driving live birds across Europe has all the biosecurity benefits of surgeons taking a patient mid op. for a breath of fresh air in the car-park.
And why live chickens? We have not lost masses of chickens by culling and for the meat trade they don't need to be brought in live. So presumably this is simply replacing layers for egg production. Surely breeding them in the UK has to be less hazardous.
We are not talking about one wagon full that was recently spotted at a service station. That will be one of many since bird flu arrived here and we haven't had masses of outbreaks.
Yes, it might be a nice idea that we bred all our chickens here but it is not going to happen over night and it is not going to produce birds at a realistic cost because if it did we would already be doing it.
People we know have seen the price for a tray of eggs drop by half in just a week!
Black Sheep is spot on -" there are many factors at play (that frankly we're are guessing at)"
It is easy to take a pop at those managing the situation but I go back to the point that most of us on here keep a small flock of poultry and will not be put out of business should we lose them. I appreciate that there are rare breeds at risk in possible culls.
Yes, we can have a total ban on imports but at the end of the day what concerns people the most - losing their small back yard flocks or the impact on the egg and chicken industry?
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it is entirely feasible to envisage a scenario where the UK element of the process is the riskiest part. In such a scenario the longer time spent in the UK for birds bred here could actually increase hazard. I'm not suggesting this is the case, just that it is within the range of possibilities. And as you said, when we don't understand things fully we can discount science fiction but everything else remains possible and we should operate on that basis.
Well, to give your theory wings you are going to come up with a UK-based hazard that is greater than driving the birds 2400km through countries where the virus is known to prevail. As for the persistence of the virus in the environment there are papers suggesting at least 30 days. Unless the transportation is in wagons ventilated via HEPA filters they are going to encounter quite a lot of aerosol from the roadway over which other loads of poultry (to say nothing of wild birds) may have passed in the previous 30 days.
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Fortunately it isn't up to anyone here to give any of their theories wings!
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We are not talking about one wagon full that was recently spotted at a service station. That will be one of many since bird flu arrived here and we haven't had masses of outbreaks.
We have however had several outbreaks in large housed units where the infected chickens are not known to have had any contact with wild birds. The introduction of infected birds from eastern europe would certainly be one explanation for that
Yes, we can have a total ban on imports but at the end of the day what concerns people the most - losing their small back yard flocks or the impact on the egg and chicken industry?
Speaking personally I could quite happily kiss off the industrial poultry industry which verges on inhumane anyway both in terms of the laughably named 'enrichment box' and in how the chickens are transported. Yes eggs would be more expensive in that scenario, but on the other hand owners of free range or loose barn flocks would not be continually undercut on price
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We are not talking about one wagon full that was recently spotted at a service station. That will be one of many since bird flu arrived here and we haven't had masses of outbreaks.
We have however had several outbreaks in large housed units where the infected chickens are not known to have had any contact with wild birds. The introduction of infected birds from eastern europe would certainly be one explanation for that
Yes, we can have a total ban on imports but at the end of the day what concerns people the most - losing their small back yard flocks or the impact on the egg and chicken industry?
Speaking personally I could quite happily kiss off the industrial poultry industry which verges on inhumane anyway both in terms of the laughably named 'enrichment box' and in how the chickens are transported. Yes eggs would be more expensive in that scenario, but on the other hand owners of free range or loose barn flocks would not be continually undercut on price
Several outbreaks in large housed units? Have we? Take out the backyard flocks and the pheasant hatchery we are still in small, single numbers. Three I believe.
Where do you think the free range and loose barn flocks get their replacements from?
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We can theorize all we like, but let's face it, we don't know. What I think most on here would agree with though, is that the whole system and ethos of food production is broken. Birds are hatched in one country, before being trucked across many more. They are kept in cramped, disease-inducing conditions, grown un-naturally fast and slaughtered un-naturally young. Valuable drugs like antibiotics are used to suppress the diseases encouraged by these methods, thus hastening the day they will become ineffective in treating our own diseases.
We once took a batch of our own hubbard meat chickens to a commercial slaughterhouse. The vet on duty said "I'm sorry, you've filled the form in wrongly - where it says % mortality, you've written nil. You need to take the number that died, and divide that by the number you started with." I replied "ah, that's because we started off with forty day-old chicks, and I've now got forty birds ready for slaughter". He looked somewhat surprised, and said "Seriously!? OK, let's go and see these birds of yours". I led him out to the trailer. "Wow!" he exclaimed. "They've got feathers!!".
We need to wake up! But the trouble is, big business is a powerful lobbying force, and we're all addicted to cheap food. As such, there are few driving forces for change, and many resisting forces.
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It isn't just chickens Womble it is animals in general that are moved around from country to country. We send weaners from the UK to be finished in europe and then they come back and depending on how long they "were away" they can be sold as british pork.
We are waking up but from a deep sleep that takes a long time. Antibiotic use being a good example.
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"Wow!" he exclaimed. "They've got feathers!!".
I'm sure I'm not the only one to well up at reading that - we really should hang our heads in shame at what we let happen to animals.
Poultry provide us with the cheapest animal protein available (baring perhaps the mechanically-recovered stuff in some sausages etc). I certainly think we can afford to improve the welfare of poultry without it hurting anyone financially. The difference in price between a cage-bird egg and a Waitrose Duchy Soil Association Organic egg is ~25p so even at minimum wage rates it only takes an extra 2 minutes of work to ensure the bird that provided our breakfast (and with it 25% of our daily protein) is very much better treated.
I don't think that is too much to ask of anyone.
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How can you improve welfare without a cost? And that is not meaning I don't think welfare can not be improved.
You say two minutes of someones time to improve welfare. Yes, that doesn't sound much but multiply that by 30,000 birds in one unit and it is a different picture.
Yes, we should be improving welfare but we also need supermarkets to pay the producers more and charge the customer more and I am afraid that is going to take more than your simple scenario.
We have seen big steps in animal welfare improvements and more should be done but I think it is more complicated than we would like to believe and there needs to be a big shift from many players in the game.
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<< .....and we're all addicted to cheap food.>>
But are we, Womble? The supermarkets tell us so, to justify their methods, so 'we' believe them. But do folk really notice if their milk is 5p cheaper in one supermarket than another? Many do, but that doesn't mean all, and it certainly doesn't include me! Yes, people will buy the cheapest chicken in the fridge, but if that cheapest chicken was twice the price, as it used to be, they would still buy it, because chicken is such a quick and cheap meal ingredient. Sure they would moan about the cost of food, but they do anyway. The problem here is cheap imported meat from countries with lower welfare standards, undercutting meat from home, produced using much higher standards of health, welfare and hygiene, which undercut prices. Controlling that is a job for Government, but of course they don't do it because they wouldn't get voted into power for another term if they did.
I do think we as a country and a world-wide race, need to rethink our values, which ultimately includes climate change, agricultural and animal husbandry methods, perhaps even encouraging a lower birth rate, contentious though that is. Growing our own veg on a family scale - allotments, garden share, scruffy patches in cities too small to build anything on, all over the world not just in the west. A major change would be for people to reduce the amount of meat they eat - goes right against the interests of farmers, but we have to think in worldwide terms, not parochially. None of those measures will happen overnight.
Look at chef programmes on TV (or don't :D ). It's all about slabs of undercooked meat, especially beef with a few bits of greenery sprinkled around to look pretty. Where are the recipes using pulses or nuts as the main source of protein? They are considered quirky, just for vegetarians and vegans, or one-offs. A couple of engaged, forward thinking chefs could help to swing public opinion there. The habit of eating large amounts of meat, far more than our bodies need nutritionally seems to have spread here from the US, and we follow along slavishly.
We need to think far outside the box, to a world scale, and stop being so greedy as a nation. Utopia doesn't work, as humans are basically too cantankerous to get on with eachother for long, but we could and should head towards at least a bit of sharing.
So, yes, keep all poultry in carefully policed free range systems, and overseas competition priced out by huge import taxes. Done ;D :chook: :chook: :chook: :chook: :chook:
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How can you improve welfare without a cost? And that is not meaning I don't think welfare can not be improved.
You say two minutes of someones time to improve welfare. Yes, that doesn't sound much but multiply that by 30,000 birds in one unit and it is a different picture.
Yes, we should be improving welfare but we also need supermarkets to pay the producers more and charge the customer more and I am afraid that is going to take more than your simple scenario.
We have seen big steps in animal welfare improvements and more should be done but I think it is more complicated than we would like to believe and there needs to be a big shift from many players in the game.
Did I say there wasn't a cost? NO - I gave a figure based on what must be commercially competitive price differences.
The talk about a unit of 30,000 birds is irrelevant - someone is clearly able to provide Soil Association welfare (and other benefits) for an incremental end user cost of 25p/egg - that is all we need to know.
Clearly government has to be the prime mover in this - [member=165443]big soft moose[/member] has it totally right in post #763 when he said :-
“Speaking personally I could quite happily kiss off the industrial poultry industry which verges on inhumane anyway both in terms of the laughably named 'enrichment box' and in how the chickens are transported. Yes eggs would be more expensive in that scenario, but on the other hand owners of free range or loose barn flocks would not be continually undercut on price ”
Obviously this can only come about by legislation. Given that there has been much public pressure recently put on supermarkets to end cage-bird egg sales I believe this would have significant backing in the UK.
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We are not talking about one wagon full that was recently spotted at a service station. That will be one of many since bird flu arrived here and we haven't had masses of outbreaks.
We have however had several outbreaks in large housed units where the infected chickens are not known to have had any contact with wild birds. The introduction of infected birds from eastern europe would certainly be one explanation for that
Yes, we can have a total ban on imports but at the end of the day what concerns people the most - losing their small back yard flocks or the impact on the egg and chicken industry?
Speaking personally I could quite happily kiss off the industrial poultry industry which verges on inhumane anyway both in terms of the laughably named 'enrichment box' and in how the chickens are transported. Yes eggs would be more expensive in that scenario, but on the other hand owners of free range or loose barn flocks would not be continually undercut on price
Several outbreaks in large housed units? Have we? Take out the backyard flocks and the pheasant hatchery we are still in small, single numbers. Three I believe.
Where do you think the free range and loose barn flocks get their replacements from?
Indeed - and three is several... plus the outbreaks in the last bird flu crisis that tracked back to imported turkeys from hungary.
In regard of where people get their free range birds since most free range flocks (excepting Hen rescue derived ones ) are not warren hybrids the chances are they are not buying them from the huge commercial hatcheries in eastern europe.
Most people i know with chickens (including some quite large farming operations) are either operating closed flocks and breeding their own, or buying chicks/birds from British hatcheries
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Most people i know with chickens (including some quite large farming operations) are either operating closed flocks and breeding their own, or buying chicks/birds from British hatcheries
And some of our so called British hatcheries are in fact in partnership with European partners.
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Fleecewife is right: we need to review our diets in the Western world and eat less animal protein.
However the problem that a number have referred to is one of economics - which has been muddying the water of a discussion about avian flu control measures for a while. Breaking down the arguments being made keeps bringing us to a central point along the lines of "it would be better if they were British birds". I'm yet to see any convincing argument presented that this would definitely bring lower risks of avian flu - for the reasons already discussed.
As Womble says, we are, absolutely, just theorising. By all means let's debate the theories - it is interesting if nothing else. But we should let the agencies get on with their jobs and stop presuming that we know better because we have some theory of our own.
The problem of economics is worth consideration though. Whether we like it or not, some things can be done cheaper (and sometimes better too) elsewhere in the world. Tackling this is not straightforward and doesn't always achieve what you think it will. We also shouldn't forget that lots of e.g. our clothes and electronics are made by humans working in poor conditions in say Bangladesh or China. Does that impact on each of our decisions when we buy new overalls or phones in the same way the hen welfare issue is enlivening the debate here? If this is truly important then we need to be consistent in our behaviours.
And yes, a "high welfare" egg may well only cost 25p more per egg. But in the real world we have hundreds of thousands of people visiting food banks on a regular basis and I regularly see people who have to choose between heating and eating. I'm pretty sure they might have something to say about whether it is "too much to ask". We need to fix a whole lot about the way our societies and economies work if we want to right these wrongs - be they hen welfare or human working conditions.
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The talk about a unit of 30,000 birds is irrelevant - someone is clearly able to provide Soil Association welfare (and other benefits) for an incremental end user cost of 25p/egg - that is all we need to know.
Given that there has been much public pressure recently put on supermarkets to end cage-bird egg sales I believe this would have significant backing in the UK.
The someone is the supermarket. I wonder how much of the extra 25p per egg the farmer is getting.
The 30,000 bird unit I was thinking of is free range not caged and if they were paid 25p per egg by the retailer it would be several times more than he actually gets.
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Well, I've been a director of companies with fingers in retail, distribution and manufacture and, if it's as bad as the game I was in I'd say that not much of the 25p ends up with the farmer - maybe 6p (like manufacturing, compared to the other two businesses, farming is a mugs game!). However, whatever it is someone seems to be able to make it pay which is the critical thing.
We in the UK consume about 12.5bn eggs/year so the 25p extra would amount to about £4.1bn more to consumers or about 13p/day per person. To put this in perspective, we currently waste food to the value of £13bn/year or about 55p/day per person or over 4 times what the welfare improvements would cost.
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As Womble says, we are, absolutely, just theorising. By all means let's debate the theories - it is interesting if nothing else. But we should let the agencies get on with their jobs and stop presuming that we know better because we have some theory of our own.
The problem of economics is worth consideration though. Whether we like it or not, some things can be done cheaper (and sometimes better too) elsewhere in the world. Tackling this is not straightforward and doesn't always achieve what you think it will. We also shouldn't forget that lots of e.g. our clothes and electronics are made by humans working in poor conditions in say Bangladesh or China. Does that impact on each of our decisions when we buy new overalls or phones in the same way the hen welfare issue is enlivening the debate here? If this is truly important then we need to be consistent in our behaviours.
And yes, a "high welfare" egg may well only cost 25p more per egg. But in the real world we have hundreds of thousands of people visiting food banks on a regular basis and I regularly see people who have to choose between heating and eating. I'm pretty sure they might have something to say about whether it is "too much to ask". We need to fix a whole lot about the way our societies and economies work if we want to right these wrongs - be they hen welfare or human working conditions.
eggs aside the economics of manufacture abroad nearly always fail not only on the aspects of worker conditions but also on the energy usage to transport, the relative quality and pollution of the manufacturing energy, the quality of waste disposal and very importantly the need to subsidise the unemployment that it causes here and the impact on fiscal trade balance (some 50bn a year in interest alone at the moment) those invisible aspects essentially become the public purse subsidising the UK seller, So paradoxically even if products made in UK are more expensive to produce they might cost us less. The game gets even stranger when the foreign power manufacturing those goods gains enough wealth to invest here and insinuate itself into our manufacturing base, utilities and property acquisition.
While 'globalisation' and interdependence might reduce conventional warfare (you don't want to hurt your customers physically or damage your target) instead the warefare is economics. You may not recognise it but it's a real war and greed and fashion and a belief in a right to foreign hols, latest cell phone or TV etc are leading us to lose in exactly the way that public greed and easy loans lead folk into the last financial crash and current low interest rates are leading us back.
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And yes, a "high welfare" egg may well only cost 25p more per egg. But in the real world we have hundreds of thousands of people visiting food banks on a regular basis and I regularly see people who have to choose between heating and eating. I'm pretty sure they might have something to say about whether it is "too much to ask". We need to fix a whole lot about the way our societies and economies work if we want to right these wrongs - be they hen welfare or human working conditions.
The latest figure (2015) for food banks is that 1.08 million 3-day food parcels were issued in that year. I'm sure there would have been far more if they could have been afforded. However, the £13bn/yr food wastage amounts to £13,000 for each food parcel. By reducing wastage by the order of 1% we could save the cost of all the food currently distributed this way.
Are you seriously suggesting that the continuance of chicken production in its current form is justified - something which Prof. John Webster of University of Bristol School of Veterinary Science described as "In both magnitude and severity, the single most severe example of man’s inhumanity to another sentient animal." simply because we can't find resources for both human and animal welfare that are a tiny fraction of our wastage?
With only a little effort in reducing waste we could afford to do both.
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And yes, a "high welfare" egg may well only cost 25p more per egg. But in the real world we have hundreds of thousands of people visiting food banks on a regular basis and I regularly see people who have to choose between heating and eating. I'm pretty sure they might have something to say about whether it is "too much to ask". We need to fix a whole lot about the way our societies and economies work if we want to right these wrongs - be they hen welfare or human working conditions.
The latest figure (2015) for food banks is that 1.08 million 3-day food parcels were issued in that year. I'm sure there would have been far more if they could have been afforded. However, the £13bn/yr food wastage amounts to £13,000 for each food parcel. By reducing wastage by the order of 1% we could save the cost of all the food currently distributed this way.
Are you seriously suggesting that the continuance of chicken production in its current form is justified - something which Prof. John Webster of University of Bristol School of Veterinary Science described as "In both magnitude and severity, the single most severe example of man’s inhumanity to another sentient animal." simply because we can't find resources for both human and animal welfare that are a tiny fraction of our wastage?
With only a little effort in reducing waste we could afford to do both.
You keep coming back to the point that a little effort here and there will make a difference but you need lots of people to make that little bit of effort and that is a big job persuading people to do a little bit.
I think we all agree there are improvements that should be made to production and welfare and probably for most of us our small effort towards that is not buying caged eggs or intensively reared chicken.
Maybe you do more than that and actively support or lobby via a pressure group to make changes? I think it was fleecewife who suggested any such campaign needed a celebrity chef to be a chicken champion. Unfortunately, I suspect most shoppers don't give welfare any thought never mind actively seek any information about where their food comes from. We need to educate our children through school about these issues. Lots of them don't even know where an egg comes from let alone the life the chicken may have had producing it.
You mentioned the Duchy label, which is Waitrose. I don't even know where our nearest one is. For most people a supermarket will be ASDA, Tesco or Morrisons.
How many people on here, apart from avoiding caged eggs and intensive chicken meat, do anything more to make a difference?
I don't think that changes can't be made after all we have already seen better labeling and advertising to show the differences between caged, barn and free range. I just think it takes a bigger effort and joined up thinking between government departments to bring about.
Personally, yes I support better welfare conditions and will continue to do my little bit but would I do more? No, because there are hundreds of good causes out there and I already give my time to a couple and that is the other problem. It is one thing to agree something should be done and another to do something that counts.
Maybe Brexit is an opportunity or maybe it will be worse.
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I picked the Waitrose Duchy as the basis of the calculations because it is specified as Soil Association Organic. This is, amazingly, pretty much the only common standard which ensures the hens do not have their beaks lasered (free range and EU Organic standards still allow lasering of beaks). Obviously, it is a niche product and as such will have the supermarket loading it with all the extra per-unit margin that must attach to stocking a low-volume product so I feel it is a very safe indicator of what the maximum cost would be if our welfare standards were raised. Costs would reduce if it became a more widely adopted standard (the Duchy brand includes a donation to the Prince’s Trust which must inflate the price a bit!).
As for what more would people do, I think the will to improve standards in the UK is strong. Free-range & organic now account for 50% of UK egg consumption (the highest proportion in the EU) and over half the adult population of the UK feed wild birds so clearly there is a high proportion of us - perhaps even the majority, that have decided to pay the extra for better animal welfare.
Unfortunately, I think many are sold an image of free-range that actually belongs to the best Organic practice and of which free-range and EU Organic standards fall short. I believe if people in the UK were given the real picture the uptake of Organic eggs would be much greater. I, for one, was horrified that beak cutting was still a feature of free-range production and more so on finding the EU Organic standard permitted it.
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<< Maybe you do more than that and actively support or lobby via a pressure group to make changes? I think it was fleecewife who suggested any such campaign needed a celebrity chef to be a chicken champion. >>
Not exactly - I was asking where the celebrity chefs are who promote non-meat meals eg pulse and nut based main courses, in an attempt to reduce our overall meat intake. If these non animal products were made sexy, then more people would eat them.
Hugh F-W did a huge amount to open up meat chicken production methods and cruelties to the general public, but he seems to have wandered off somewhere. Time for a comeback?
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Sorry I didn't look back but I think you are quite correct about meat alternatives and generally teaching people about meals and less waste too.
I had remembered your celebrity chef point slightly incorrectly but as you say Hugh FW did a good job and you need someone who is a face people recognise on the telly.
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A major change would be for people to reduce the amount of meat they eat - goes right against the interests of farmers, but we have to think in worldwide terms, not parochially. None of those measures will happen overnight.[/size][/font][/color]
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A study done on the National Trust's Wimpole Estate in Dorset showed soil under the estate's trees and hedges contained up to 11% organic matter, under grassland up to 6% and in some areas of arable less than 1%. Differences were attributed to lack of ploughing. The study concluded that with "the benefits of keeping livestock on pasture as a means of greenhouse gas mitigation implicit in these findings the accumulating evidence flies in the face of the much-touted argument that feeding the world on vegetable protein is the more responsible option".
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What was classified as 'organic matter' in that study?
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Do you have a link to the Wimploe study MF? Always best to go back to source.
It's quite a wobbly conclusion to draw to say that the increased organic matter is due to the absence of ploughing. Without knowing how the experiments were conducted, what parameters were considered, we can't know if that is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the evidence. I'm sure there are lots of factors at play here, for example that in woodland there is leaf litter which has lain there as long as the trees. Similarly, grass land tends to have far more mole activity than arable fields, as they are not disturbed by ploughing, so can incorporate dead grasses and dung - yes so that supports keeping animals v prairie farming, but not whether organic methods of raising crops gives a different result. I'm not saying we should all become vegetarian or vegan, just reduce the amount of meat, to increase our health, and reduce the need for such vast chicken production units, and allow outdoor rearing methods.
Organic crop production, with mixed farming, allows plenty of organic matter to be returned to the soil, so there should be a big difference in the organic matter between organic and chemical arable methods. Is Wimpole run on organic lines, or conventionally? I know they have lots of animals so there should be plenty of dung :poo:
For the greenhouse gas output of housed versus outdoor livestock, I'm not aware of a major study on this point. There are studies on housed cattle, where their gaseous outputs can be collected and measured. I think it's very likely that the emissions of outdoor reared cattle will be captured by the grass and trees before heading skywards, but has anyone measured this?
Cattle kept indoors, or in feeding lots as in the US, are fed lots of grain, rather than grass, so their emissions may not be comparable. Has this comparison been researched?
There is apparently plenty of evidence that reducing the amount of meat we eat in the West will improve our health - don't ask me for any links though :D
I truly believe in the motto 'moderation in everything', and this applies to what we eat too. Nobody needs a one pound steak, or meat at every meal, so to encourage people to reduce their meat consumption to about 5 meals per week seems reasonable. That would leave a bit of room for the animals we rear to eat to have a bit more space, and better living conditions.
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The latest figure (2015) for food banks is that 1.08 million 3-day food parcels were issued in that year.
This might be the top hit on Google but the 1 million is the number of parcels distributed by the Trussell Trust. They seem to represent perhaps about half of all food bank volume.
I'm sure there would have been far more if they could have been afforded. However, the £13bn/yr food wastage amounts to £13,000 for each food parcel. By reducing wastage by the order of 1% we could save the cost of all the food currently distributed this way.
I absolutely agree - food wastage is at ridiculous levels and is bordering on (is?) offensive given the level of food poverty we are seeing in society.
Are you seriously suggesting that the continuance of chicken production in its current form is justified
Not at all. I'm with you that we have a responsibility to look after animals (be they for food or otherwise) with appropriate care. I'm just suggesting that the solution is not as simple as expecting everyone to pay 25p more per egg - for some that is literally unaffordable and the alternative for them might be hungry children.
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Climatologists only have a partial consensus on what/where so-called greenhosue gases come from and how much each contributes and I also don't see the simple findings of differing organic matter levels necessarily relevant. What would be more significant would be the protein production per land type as a ratio of that organic residue and persistence.
Having lots of organic matter under a hedgerow that is non-productive means little and that study doesn't say what level of methane or nitrous oxide and CO2 comes off from that hedgerow and it's soil and/or is captured. Equally as has been pointed out digestive gasses aren't included or indeed fertiliser additions.
As far as global causes.. well we all know that jungle clearance, warfare and natural disasters are huge contributors as indeed is 'globalisation' and all the additional transport of goods.
Its the narrow way folk look at figures.. say solar panels must be good... but no-one factors in their manufacture, the mining of materials and the environmental impact of their ultimate disposal. The most environmentally friendly cars are the gas-guzzlers in cuba.. purely cos they still exist rather than the environmental footprint that would have happened if the cubans had kept buying new cars - just in the manufacture of those new cars.
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All good points pgkevet.
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The main vegan alternatives to cows' milk appear to be palm oil and soya derivatives. Both crops are mostly the product of huge multinationals buying up small farms and smallholdings and clearing rainforest. Maybe the Go Vegan World advert "Dairy takes babies from their mothers" should go on to say "Kill an orang utan, gorilla or jaguar instead"....?
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Not at all. I'm with you that we have a responsibility to look after animals (be they for food or otherwise) with appropriate care. I'm just suggesting that the solution is not as simple as expecting everyone to pay 25p more per egg - for some that is literally unaffordable and the alternative for them might be hungry children.
The primary driver of poverty in the UK is the cost of housing - trying to compensate for this to the tune of less than 13p/person/day (which in the face of current rents is infinitesimally small) by retaining our worst act of cruelty against any animal is perverse and achieves nothing.
Lest you think I'm being an extremist I'm simply suggesting we implement management of flocks to eliminate beak trimming - something which has been successfully eliminated in other countries (e.g. Sweden & Austria), was scheduled for a ban by DEFRA in 2011, was kicked down the road to 2016 and, surprise surprise, was kicked down the road again last year to heaven-knows when.
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Its the narrow way folk look at figures.. say solar panels must be good... but no-one factors in their manufacture, the mining of materials and the environmental impact of their ultimate disposal. The most environmentally friendly cars are the gas-guzzlers in cuba.. purely cos they still exist rather than the environmental footprint that would have happened if the cubans had kept buying new cars - just in the manufacture of those new cars.
Yes, unfortunately there have been a lot of things done because we have not kept a balance in climate science - for example the proliferation of the diesel car especially in Europe and the deaths from diesel particulates (the dangers of which were well established by the 1980s, long before the decisions were made).
We need to make renewables that actually work for the monetary and environmental investment we put into them - it's going to be a long job. I'm proud to say I have had a very small input into the development of this beast which may possibly be one of the ways forward:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/kite-power-station-scotland-wind-turbine-plant-electricity-a7348576.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/kite-power-station-scotland-wind-turbine-plant-electricity-a7348576.html)
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The main vegan alternatives to cows' milk appear to be palm oil and soya derivatives. Both crops are mostly the product of huge multinationals buying up small farms and smallholdings and clearing rainforest. Maybe the Go Vegan World advert "Dairy takes babies from their mothers" should go on to say "Kill an orang utan, gorilla or jaguar instead"....?
I really don't understand that advert. Presumably it means dairy products, but how do they take babies away from their mothers? Do they mean cows milk v breast fed? Not everyone can breast feed, sadly. And how would soya milk be any different to cows milk in that respect? Weird. I don't think anyone in this discussion is advocating for the world to go vegan.
The damage done to rare environments, and as a result to some of our wonderful creatures is so totally unacceptable you wonder why the whole world isn't weeping. Maybe it is. Have you seen how many products contain either soya or palm oil? It can be really difficult to source food, and many other products, without finding one of those hidden among the ingredients. Then you have to think that Soya is in much livestock manufactured food. So...that brings us full circle to grassfed animals. Necessarily, fewer animals can be produced using that system, so we either reduce our meat intake, or we crowd our livestock together, so our greedy population can have more, more more. What's the answer?
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Does it not refer to taking calves off dairy cows?
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Does it not refer to taking calves off dairy cows?
Could be, and they're using the word 'babies' to be more emotive.
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Yup, I think they mean calves. If you Google "images for soybean crop" or "palm oil trees plantation" or "almond orchards in USA" then contrast the images with what we see across the valley when we look at our neighbour's herd you can see why biodiversity is taking a nose dive in so many parts of the world.
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Of course its debatable whether those soya monocultures are to feed vegans or to feed (mostly american) cattle
Coming back to the thread topic I see that there is now an outbreak in Alabama and Tennesee... how the hell did it get over there (as those areas are well off route for migrating wildfowl from china and russia) ? http://uk.businessinsider.com/3-cases-of-bird-flu-found-on-an-alabama-farm-2017-3?r=US&IR=T (http://uk.businessinsider.com/3-cases-of-bird-flu-found-on-an-alabama-farm-2017-3?r=US&IR=T)
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I suspect it's endemic in wild birds worldwide but is only now being noticed because it's of commercial significance.
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I seem to remember the USA had it quite bad a few years ago.
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I don't know if this has already been mentioned but I came across this report which considers the role of wild birds in transmission of highly pathogenic bird flu http://www.face.eu/sites/default/files/documents/english/scientific_task_force_on_avian_influenza_and_wild_birds_h5n8_hpai_december_2016_final.pdf (http://www.face.eu/sites/default/files/documents/english/scientific_task_force_on_avian_influenza_and_wild_birds_h5n8_hpai_december_2016_final.pdf)
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OH Came in and said there was a dead pheasant in field, could it be bird flu, we decided perhaps it was the cold wet weather, looking very sad and bedraggled just now.
I went and had a look later, before anyone could go reporting it. All I found was a dead hare, poor thing, I think hubby really needs some glasses :-).
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Yeeeey!
They just announced on BBC radio that the government is lifting all poultry restrictions from this Thursday!
Melton mowbray rare breed auction has been rescheduled from 8th of April tov6th of May.
Can't wait!!!
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As I understand it restrictions still in place in HRA's have been lifted from Thursday 13th but the ban on poultry gatherings remains until 1st May, with no mention as yet as to whether that too will be lifted (although, unless there are fresh outbreaks, I suspect it will).
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My ducks will be so happy to go out on Thursday :excited:
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The note we got says that they're allowed outside, but feeding must still be indoors, footwear must still be cleaned, and other precautions to minimise risk of infection still stand.
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My neighbour let me know that apparently 'all restrictions' are off from yesterday according to the One Show last night.
I am still slightly confused as the only official announcement I heard this week was about moving HRAs in England to the same status as non HRA areas which we have had here since February. Under which they can go out but only in areas where you can prevent contact with wild birds by clearing the ground of all bird droppings and avoiding sharing access to any kind of water or food, not just what you give them. And free range in the sense of letting birds roam in gardens and paddocks can not keep entirely 'safe' from wild birds, not that penning can either as I've pheasants, partridge, crows and all kinds of wild birds in the garden that stand the other side of whatever fencing there is, even if they can't get to feeders..
So I'm still working to a 30 April release date for complete free range where they are out most daylight hours but returned to pen for corn in the evening and to roost. And my neighbours are confused by my approach because the BBC said it was ok and all restrictions are off as of yesterday.
Is there a Scotland based new guidance that I have missed? Is BBC1 an appropriate source to quote if someone comes along to complain either way?
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Just when you think it's all over a new case in "a backyard flock" turns up in Lancashire :'( :'(
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https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/avian-influenza-bird-flu)
Yes, you can let your poultry out but have to follow the guidance. They still intend to lift the Prevention Zone on the 15th of May. And yes, they have confirmed a new case.
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This is teh link fro Scotland. The exclusion zone ended at midnight on 30th April and mine are delighted to be out and about and enjoying teh sunshine.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/animal-welfare/Diseases/disease/avian (http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/animal-welfare/Diseases/disease/avian)