The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: Chris L on October 27, 2016, 10:43:59 pm
-
Hi there, a would be 'good life' person who lives off my land. I stuck (a bargain buy) very mobile static for 60+year old hubby and I to use when up the land for tools, gardening, resting, snoozing, a cuppa, toilet, clean up etc. I've kept family in fruit, veg and flowers for 11 years with a polytunnel which extends growing season. Anyway, I have a letter from Planning Dept giving me 28 days to remove van and they'll not support an application to site the van. I have no experience of dealing with these guys... how should I approach them. I don't believe I require Planning Permission because it's a mobile performing a temporary use/storage. Do they have power to shift, will they, what will it cost me etc. etc.? From a, now very nervous, good life person...
-
I'm sorry I can't help with advice but I just wanted to sympathise and offer support. The local authorities can be very cruel. For Heaven sake, what harm are you doing and what adverse effect are you having on the environment?
I would fight this order, but in a nice, polite way.
Ask people who have been in this situation what they have done and, maybe look into the in's and out's of having the static on the land for so long!
Good luck!
-
Thank you for that feed back, very good advice. I agree that it's better to try and work with Officials as far as possible.
-
I agree with Devon lady that you aren't having an adverse effect on the environment. It sounds like they may believe you are living in the mobile home. Have you tried speaking to them about it?
-
I wasn't clear from your message whether the van had been there for several years or you have recently added it? If it has been there several years then the conversation with planning is to explain that, and how you are using it and ask why the sudden concern. Possibly they are having a general clamp down, or someone else has put something up, told to take it off and grumbled you have got away with it, if so planning may well be amenable for you to come up with the right ones they can justify it staying. If it is more recent then less surprising they are showing an interest but explaining you are both getting older and it is a day rest from your activities (which haven't changed) may help.......
-
2 issues here as I see it.
1. As you have been using your acre of land for more than 10 years, in connection with the use and enjoyment of your house, then I believe you can apply to the council for a certificate of lawfulness to have this land included in the curtilage of your house. If that is granted then you have permitted development rights to keep a caravan/shed/mobile home within your curtilage for your own use.
2. Or if you have had the static there for more than 10 years, then again you can apply for a certificate of lawfulness to retain it. If you can prove it has been there for more than 10 years then they are obliged by law to grant this.
Google - certificate of lawfulness in relation to caravans and extending curtilage
- and permitted development.
-
They're just trying to discourage residential use, they'd never go that hard after it if it was an actual tool shed after all.
-
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/angus-mearns/261163/hunters-path-scrapyard-wins-legal-battle/ (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/angus-mearns/261163/hunters-path-scrapyard-wins-legal-battle/)
The above is a link from our local paper, the person involved is a friend of mine. He stood his ground and won! There are interesting quotes you could use. Google jane fox, she once wrote a letter for me to help me with a planning problem, might be worth contacting her. If you bought the land 11 years ago, you should be able to evidence this and get locals to support you!
Good luck :fc:
-
Did you post any pictures on a website that's still running in years 1 & 2 .. a picture paints a thousand words in that respect , for it should be a dated pictorial evidence.
Even Google might have a satellite shot of your property showing the caravan in place
Mine from 2006 showed my new car on the drive .
Perhaps It could be worth finding out , maybe even bluffing saying it was shown on Google satellite images back in 2005 then let the council pay to check it out .
Most councils have had access to Google satellite images since the year 2000
Perhaps If you PM a few of us with your post code /address we can play a while on line and see what we can find out .... I'm happy to try & help .
-
I am overwhelmed at your offers of help and support, thank you it is so reassuring. So, I was beginning to think the matter had gone away until the enforcement officer called last week telling me to remove the van as he, 'wants to clear it off his desk.' Although he appears pleasant he acts as a middle man and refers to instructions from his manager. Anyway I explained that as far as I was concerned the van is mobile, it is mine, as is the land, I refused to get drawn into its use or anything else. He said he'll be back in touch in a few weeks. The land is at HU19 2QN Emsgate.
-
If it was me I would seek professional advice and I would try and get a half hour free consultation with a solicitor first of all just to get the ball rolling and to see where you stand legally, i'm really to sorry to hear of your predicament.
-
The mobile caravan (planning say it's a 'static') has only been in situ a few months, planning visited us the day following its arrival! Although I've used the land as my garden for now 12 years, Planning say there's no point in making any applications as they'll be rejected! We had a smaller caravan on the land for about 4 years which we removed shortly after the new one arrived, we've had a portacabin/shed on the land 9/10 years and a poly-tunnel about 6 years. The garden is well used and worked. I've since spotted other similar large mobile caravans in gardens/land attached to gardens in this village and other local villages. I don't believe this is a planning matter as it's a 'mobile' purely for my own personal use on my own garden... however planning don't agree!!!
-
I hear you, Chris. It's very frustrating!
I'm in a similar position where I have land over 2hrs away from my house and wanted to put a caravan on the land to overnight in whilst doing work, and to store tools in. Apparently I can't, even if I only use the caravan for 28 days - because it's the caravan that's the issue, not my use.
It's annoying as hell as I want to work the land and do something GOOD, but planning laws restrict me. There is a dilapidated caravan onsite that's been there over 20 years, so I'm going to see if I can replace it with a new one and circumvent laws that way.
-
What do you think of my proposed staged strategy...
1) Question why it's a planning matter as its a mobile in my garden of 11+ years
2) Request the law that says I can't have a caravan in my garden
3) Plead persecution as several other locals have similar caravans in their gardens
4) Demand names/nature of alleged complaint to give me a fair chance to respond
5) Propose to pursue the enforcement officer and manager personally for harassment
I wonder how far I will get in the process before I succeed, fail or die of the stress?
It is beaurocracy gone mad...
-
How often do you move it?
-
Let's get back to the basics
does your caravan have wheels on it?
If the answer is yes, then it is not a permanent structure as it can be moved. Suggest that if he is not happy with the position of the caravan then you are willing to reposition it to where he chooses within your garden. You can't do it right at that moment but you can assure that it will be moved to where he wants it sited within 72 hours, demonstrate you are willing to work with him and that it is a moveable structure.
You call the land your garden
Within planning is it classed as garden or is it agricultural land?
If it is a garden, great, I would ask why can't you have a temporary, mobile structure on the land? If it is agricultural, you've got a bigger fight on your hands.
Choose your battles, I wouldn't demand names as under the data protection act they won't disclose who has made the complaint and getting into that barney is a waste of time and energy as you won't win that one!
Also the enforcement officer is only doing his job and he is the one that has the power! Do not make an enemy with him because that will not help your cause.
If however, you feel the enforcement is unfair and if the officer abuses his power and comes across as intimidating then advise him that you will seek advise from a planning consultant and all further correspondance is to be through them.
If others have similar caravans, ask if your neighbours have an enforcement to remove their caravans, if not, why not?
A mobile structure does not need to be frequently moved. In my field, I have 5 temporary mobile structures. They haven't been moved for 5 years, as long as they can move either with wheels on skids attatched
-
Mojocafa, thank you very much for your very wise words of wisdom. A lot of food for thought and I will now re-drafting my strategy. I understood that perhaps under 'freedom of information act' I could request, if not the names, for safeguarding, the nature of the complaint to enable me to respond factually to the alleged concerns. Yes, my acre is agric, despite being used as garden for 11 years, and the EO said he will reject an application to covert it to domestic... I do feel that he's throwing his weight about as, he claims, he's under a lot of pressure from his manager, to get it removed. I will try to continue to demonstrate hard that I'm working with him to help make his job easier. In the meantime I will try to establish whether there are EOs on the other caravans however, folk round here are very secretive... Thank you once again I can't tell you how much it helps to feel that I am not totally alone and persecuted. Regards
-
If you can prove it has been used as garden for >10 years can you not apply for a Lawful Development Certificate?
-
If you can prove it has been used as garden for >10 years can you not apply for a Lawful Development Certificate?
Exactly.
As I said in my earlier post you can apply to have the land as part of your curtilage as you have used it as such for more than 10 years. You are then entitled to have almost as many caravans as you wish parked on it as long as they are not used for living in.
However, as you have only an acre of land, which is not an enormous area to walk over, could you not just move the caravan onto what is your official garden?
If you want to fight this, it really is worth consulting a planning expert.
Also look at Martin Goodall's planning blog on the internet.
-
Yes, that would certainly appear to be an ideal solution to apply for permission to have the agriculture land changed to domestic especially as it's been used as a garden for more than 10 years HOWEVER the Enforcement Officer said that although I can apply for change of use, it will be rejected... interesting
-
It's not up to the enforcement officer to make the decision.
In my experience, while I wouldn't go so far to as call them corrupt - their actions sometimes fall little short of it.
I'm sure there are some conscientious ones about, but I have found that they often have their own agenda, a power complex, are simply ignorant or have been promoted to the level of their own inefficiency.
If you want to fight this you really do need to consult an expert or it could cost you a lot of money to keep the caravan where it is.
-
Hello out there, can any of you good people recommend a reputable legal expert please as I await imminent delivery of an enforcement order to remove my caravan from my land in East Yorkshire? Thank you in anticipation Chris x
-
I would hold back until it comes
And its probably a planning expert you need
Is it residential ? What land is it positioned on ?
If its on agricultural land and its ancillary to agricultural use ie rest room food store you do not need permission
If its been used for 10 years and you can prove it has been used for whatever use during that time its exempt from
any enforcement action.
If is in garden curtalige and used as say a spare bed room and whoever uses it eats in main house it does not need planning. If the plot has been used as garden for 10 years and you have photos ,witness statements ect
Google earth is a good place to start can cover a few years then you are in a good position.
Tell them straight your happy for a government planning inspector to make decision not them ;)
Dont let them worry you its easy to appeal a enforcement notice and the council often come out looking like p____
-
You're amazing thank you, I feel empowered once again to continue the fight. Chris x