The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: korucarm on September 21, 2016, 09:31:59 pm
-
Hi! I am researching natural wormers for sheep and am wondering what others have had success with? Diatomaceous Earth and Verm X Pellets are two options that I have know of so far. I have experience with DE and have found it to be effective on both humans and dogs/cats and am wondering if it would be effective on sheep too. Thanks.
-
We have used garlic ---bit of a pain to grind up and make into a drench. Best results were obtained by standing the sheep on concrete for a morning to empty out and then administering about 200cc orally
FEC reduction was ok but it was expensive and I stank for days after dosing 600 lambs
Also tried watercress but that was really messy and a job to get any into the animals
-
Would be easier to plant a small crop of chicory that you get them to graze periodically.
-
We did do myrrh in the water though and wormwood in the food, those are good for keeping parasites down, but you have to give it to em twice daily, the wormwood, and the myrrh every day in the water. Personally I would prefer the chicory option. I think its fine if you have only a very small flock but with a big flock I don't think it would be worth it. We did boil up wormwood and sage and let it infuse and then dose them with it, but again very time consuming and you have to do it more often than conventional. Garlic was also a very good one too!
-
You can get a garlic licky bucket, don't know whether it's really effective.
-
I like the idea of a garlic lick bucket or salt but wouldn't it taint the meat?
-
Yes a garlic bucket does taint the meat - it says don't use it for X-weeks pre-slaughter. Besides they won't ingest enough garlic from a bucket to do any good for worming purposes, just enough to keep flies off.
-
We give ours a handful of ewe nuts in the evening to keep 'em friendly. Following on from the behaviour of a horsey friend of ours I give a sprinkling of garlic powder over the nuts with the view to keep flies off.
-
Yes a garlic bucket does taint the meat
Am I the only one who thought :yum: :yum: :yum: reading that?
:-[
-
I will try the garlic buckets for keeping flies away, meat taint not important as my sheep are pets - thanks for the tip
-
Yes a garlic bucket does taint the meat
Am I the only one who thought :yum: :yum: :yum: reading that?
:-[
No. :yum: :yum: :yum:
-
If "natural" wormers, like Vermex or garlic were really effective.... I wonder why there is a huge market for chemical wormers...
-
As Anke says. Also I am intrigued as to how you found these natural products to be effective in worming humans. Is this first hand experience, scientific clinical trials or internet anecdotes? There are substantial issues with worming humans in the third world and with the use of chemical workers for pregnant women, which with limited contraception is potentially most child bearing age women so no doubt widespread use of 'safe' natural products but that does not necessarily make them effective.
-
If "natural" wormers, like Vermex or garlic were really effective.... I wonder why there is a huge market for chemical wormers...
Probably because with chemical wormers its a case of dose once then leave till next time. With natural wormers its an everyday thing, which means that it is time consuming and a lot of people just dont have the time, sadly :(
-
Please do NOT use a "natural wormer" to attempt to get rid of an existing worm burden in your livestock. There is no such thing as a "natural wormer" - end of story!
Why do you think Vermex is not sold anymore as a "natural wormer" (as it was when it first came out), but to help naturally with the intestinal hygiene - the huge advert on the back of CS doesn't once use the word "wormer" ! It does NOT work
I have no reason not to think that regular consumption of garlic will be good for any animal (including humans) in many aspects, I feed it in small quantities to my goats over winter and grow a large crop for us humans too.... I have seen goats from goatkeepers that do not "believe" in using chemical wormers, and these goats are a sad sad sight...
-
Anke how come chicory is a natural vermifuge and farmers have reported that their lambs get off to market quicker? I wouldnt rule out the conventional at all but we should keep eyes open to nature as well. There are natural wormers and conventional. The conventional will wipe out all worms but with natural wormers you have to administer more reguarlarly. To say that there is no natural wormer is false, there are and always have been how do you think they coped thousands of years ago? For now conventional wormers rule, but you cant close your mind to the fact that there are other ways/methods by using nature, out there. ;)
-
I was just reading in a herbal book that I have and it deals with certain herbs. The most popular herbs for vermifuge are garlic, thyme, tansy and wormwood. They do recommend that you consult your herbalist before administering them, as different herbs treat different strains of worms. For example not all herbs will kill of intestinal worms, some will and some won't. Garlic it says is a worm preventative and can treat infestations of worms too. You would have to learn more about them and the science behind how they work before administering anything. It could be that because people are not using natural wormers correctly, hence leading to sad animals, is because they have lack of knowledge. So my advice is study a huge amount more about them before using them. :) Hope this helps!
-
Fortunately these days you can get reliable worm counts done regularly so if you want to try different methods you can at least verify if they are working. Herbal books are mostly repeated passages from previous books rather than evidence based and whilst some are substantiated a lot of the statements are folk lore. Believe it or not.
-
Thank you waterbuffalofarmer - for telling me to "go and learn more". I have a PhD in Chemistry and a fairly good understanding of the science involved. I also usually get my information from quality textbooks and peer-reviewed publications.
PS.: I wasn't asking for your advice btw.
-
The thing is, just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good, safe or effective. Personally I'd far rather trust a man-made chemical that has been properly tested for efficacy and safety.
What's the safe meat withdrawal period for wormwood for instance?
We have used garlic...........FEC reduction was ok
That's really interesting to hear that it actually did something. Has anybody else tried a proper egg count reduction experiment using any of the other 'natural wormers'?
-
Thank you waterbuffalofarmer - for telling me to "go and learn more". I have a PhD in Chemistry and a fairly good understanding of the science involved. I also usually get my information from quality textbooks and peer-reviewed publications.
PS.: I wasn't asking for your advice btw.
I know that [member=3211]Anke[/member] and I wasn't necessarily directing the go learn more at you, I was directing it at everyone really. We should try and learn more if we want to do the best for our animals. I was merely putting it out for discussion :)
-
The thing is, just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good, safe or effective. Personally I'd far rather trust a man-made chemical that has been properly tested for efficacy and safety.
What's the safe meat withdrawal period for wormwood for instance?
We have used garlic...........FEC reduction was ok
That's really interesting to hear that it actually did something. Has anybody else tried a proper egg count reduction experiment using any of the other 'natural wormers'?
Very interesting point [member=2128]Womble[/member] it would be good to know that. I don't think that there is a withdrawal period on wormwood, although it might taint the meat. Wormwood is perfectly safe for human beings, as long as it is taken in small amounts, I tried it once, although not nice...... I think they used it in the midle east for humans too, as they were more advanced in natural medicines back in the day. In fact a lot of the research does come from Arabia and other parts of the middle east, as do a lot of the best healers from the middle ages and so forth :) All this has made me think of buying more books about herbs and their uses now, thanks guys I have enjoyed this discussion! :excited:
-
[member=2128]Womble[/member] I thought about trying a FEC route with Vermix but concluded it wasn't cost effective. Given the anecdotal evidence the chances are some of these remedies have some efficacy, but the quantity you would need to feed generally makes them impractical or expensive compared with a good old dose of chemical wormer. Vermix had to downgrade their claims substantially when they were challenged to provide data. [member=29066]Tim W[/member] can you elaborate on your comment that FEC reduction was ok? Numbers of sheep, FEC count before and after using garlic, how long you used it for?
Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] I'm not sure more books on Herbals will get you more learning. They simply repeat each other. But then like Anke I am disadvantaged with the rigour of an advanced Chemistry degree.
-
We used the garlic drench many years ago (25?) when we first went organic
There were 600 ewes so I am guessing we drenched 900 lambs max.(probably only 600)
I can't remember the precise reduction in FEC but it was very effective (would like to say 98%+ but can't recall now)
It was a one off attempt and was abandoned for a few reasons;
1) It was hard work to prepare and to administer in such large volumes
2) We got much better at grazing management which helped reduce the problem
3) We did some hard selection to reduce the number of obviously susceptible animals (just high dag scores/dirty types)
4) The organic bodies became more inclined to allow derogations for anthelmintic use
However you could argue that with the large volumes of drench involved we should have killed just about everything in the lamb's gut!
My approach to herbal and other ''natural'' remedies is much more rigorous these days ---I demand data as proof and have been involved in enough trials to make we want independent reviews too
-
Whether you agree with the herbal route or not I don't think anyone needs to be touchy or rude! Aconite is good for stress I believe!
Very often people who go down the "herbal" or "natural" route don't take into account stocking density and pasture management and I also have seen some sick looking animals kept in this way that are not thriving. Equally, I have seen this approach where there is enough grazing and proper pasture rotation and management and seen some lovely stock.
I have also seen both sides of the coin with people who only use chemicals.
-
Thank you [member=29066]Tim W[/member] , very interesting. It would be good to see more evaluation on natural remedies that are scientifically rigorous, so if you come across some please point us at them. Though please protect me from the pseudoscience brigade or I'll be reaching for the Aconite.
-
Animals survived perfectly well before we domesticated them, seeking out the most appropriate food stuffs at certain times of the year (like sheep who will search out wild garlic). However, man has intensified their production, confined them and increased their stocking density, thus throwing a spanner in the works. Hence the need for chemical solutions.
I'm sure there are plant & mineral based solutions that work but you also have to factor in stocking densities and pasture rotation etc. In the wild it might be that an animal will only visit a particular grazing area once a year?
-
Very interesting point [member=2128]Womble[/member] it would be good to know that. I don't think that there is a withdrawal period on wormwood, although it might taint the meat. Wormwood is perfectly safe for human beings, as long as it is taken in small amounts
That's my point really. Penicillin is perfectly safe for human beings, yet lethal to the humble guinea pig!
When I come to send my sheep to slaughter, I have to sign something that says
Withdrawal periods have been observed for all veterinary medicines and other treatments administered to the animals
That's tricky if I've given them things (natural or un-natural) that have never been properly assessed for use in sheep :-\
Right, break over - I'd best get back to assessing the safety of a large scale agrochemical formulation plant ;)
-
What a good scrap!
They used to use arsenic as a wormer. Its natural. They stopped for some reason. They also used to use it as makeup. They stopped that too funnily enough.
Things move on. The conventional wormers are targeted; poisonous to the worms, not poisonous to the sheep. If natural wormers ever had any efficacy, that would surely have been overcome by the worms ability to adapt. Exposing any population of organisms to any stress on a regular basis simply gives the population more opportunities to adapt. End result - it stops being a stress (if it ever was).
-
Well put DartmoorLiz. I don't see it as a scrap though....on the whole people have been politely putting their points based on their different knowledge and experience.
The general public's ability to use scientific methods rather than judge based on invalidated opinions is abysmal, watch any documentary or political debate, No better than the general publics ignorance of how livestock and food production are managed....
Although big Pharma R&D was dominated by chemical molecule development in the eighties there were still natural product departments sifting earth world wide looking for new leads for antibiotics for example, a bit of a side line then. In recent years the promise of biological based medicines has taken the interest and money. Whether you are man (woman), sheep or mouse it is the safety and efficacy that matters not the chemical or biological origin of the therapy. The key point I think several people have made is it should be evidence and knowledge based not anecdotal choices if you want to be confident of the therapy you are using. Not to mention the right dosing regime.
-
We give ours a handful of ewe nuts in the evening to keep 'em friendly. Following on from the behaviour of a horsey friend of ours I give a sprinkling of garlic powder over the nuts with the view to keep flies off.
How much garlic powder? I wonder if this would work on my poor mare who gets sweet itch!
-
Although big Pharma R&D was dominated by chemical molecule development in the eighties there were still natural product departments sifting earth world wide looking for new leads for antibiotics for example, a bit of a side line then. In recent years the promise of biological based medicines has taken the interest and money.
You are right. It might help big pharma's cause if they published all their research. I do love a lively debate.
-
They do publish a lot more than they did. Though a lot of unpublished is inconclusive or leads to a dead end. In my defence if my previous comments on General public's ignorance seemed arrogant there are many many subjects about which I am ignorant.
Most of my horse friends use garlic too. A handful with the hard feed. Trouble is whole yard smells of citronella and garlic not too keen myself. My horse never gets garlic and doesn't get any more or less flies than the other horses. Of course it could be the flies keep away because the rest of the herd stink.....
-
Following on from the behaviour of a horsey friend of ours I give a sprinkling of garlic powder over the nuts with the view to keep flies off.
How much garlic powder? I wonder if this would work on my poor mare who gets sweet itch!
She uses one of the big buckets of turmeric and garlic powder, and each horse gets to stick its snout in there once a day/couple of days.
Efficaciousness I could speak to beyond the anecdotal.
-
We give ours a handful of ewe nuts in the evening to keep 'em friendly. Following on from the behaviour of a horsey friend of ours I give a sprinkling of garlic powder over the nuts with the view to keep flies off.
How much garlic powder? I wonder if this would work on my poor mare who gets sweet itch!
It doesn't work for sweet itch - I tried it on my mule who used to get sweet itch quite badly. Not only did it not keep the flies away but it didn't help at all with the sweet itch. In addition, I read somewhere that administering garlic actually makes an animal more sensitive to the bites. (Can't remember the details now)
However. . . . you may notice that I said "used to get sweet itch". Well she does still get it but it is controlled by putting on a mixture of pig oil and sulphur, as used to treat feather mite in hairy cobs. I just spread it on where she's started to itch, it takes the irritation away and the fur starts to grows back immediately. By applying every few days or whenever you see bites, it keeps the sweet itch within comfortable control and never gets to the obsessive scratching stage.
-
Never heard of pig oil!! I'll have to Google and get to making this potion!! Thanks for the tip!!!
-
Pig oil and sulphur does work but I will add a warning - the oil can affect the way fly repellents are absorbed and I have seen a Shetland go into anaphylactic shock when fly stuff was put on, it was very fortunate the vet was present vaccinating another pony at the time.
This pony had been a long term sufferer and had had many lotions and potions over the years so several could have been involved with his reaction.
-
We give ours a handful of ewe nuts in the evening to keep 'em friendly. Following on from the behaviour of a horsey friend of ours I give a sprinkling of garlic powder over the nuts with the view to keep flies off.
How much garlic powder? I wonder if this would work on my poor mare who gets sweet itch!
please don't-garlic as an alium, is toxic to horses (also to dogs and cats fwiw, no idea about ruminants) and in high amounts can cause anemia. In fact the only thing garlic has been proved to do is stimulate the immune response, not something you want in an animal who's immune response is already over stimulated (i.e. SI being an allergic response).
Garlic does not keep flies away, nor does it have any efficiency against worms (I am a postdoctoral parasitologist fwiw, I would probably use 'herbal' books to light the fire with, why anyone would take them as gospel is beyond me).
-
Hey come-on I know that Garlic can be bad too, but there is a lot to be said about it (that is for the ruminent side, not horses) ..... I used it in part to help treat an animal with mastitis, as the usual treatments hadn't worked, which the vet had given me, and I must say it made a huge amount of difference, I did use a newer treatment, which was new on the market, to treat her properly, but the garlic made a huge of a lot of difference to it. It cleared it up to a point where it could then be wiped out by the newer strain of antibiotic thingy which I was then prescribed. There is a lot to be said for natural treatments in animals, why should we ignore them? I agree that more research needs to be provided via data for people to then be able to decide as to whether it would work as well. Maybe we should be learning more about them instead of dismissing them so lightly. Who's for scientists doing more research into this, it could be highly interesting, and cheaper in the long run and better for the animals systems too?
-
. Maybe we should be learning more about them instead of dismissing them so lightly. Who's for scientists doing more research into this, it could be highly interesting, and cheaper in the long run and better for the animals systems too?
research is done on 'natural' remedies where there is the money-they don't work or if they do, they are at toxic levels. you don't get to hear about it because they're either not published, because publishing negative results isn't interesting, or you arent looking in the right place for peer-reviewed journal articles in good journals. I work in livestock health with a very strong emphasis on welfare. Your stories amount to anecdotes, not data.
who do you think funds research wbf? where does the money come from? pixies? the government? the EU? oh no, wait...
-
. Maybe we should be learning more about them instead of dismissing them so lightly. Who's for scientists doing more research into this, it could be highly interesting, and cheaper in the long run and better for the animals systems too?
research is done on 'natural' remedies where there is the money-they don't work or if they do, they are at toxic levels. you don't get to hear about it because they're either not published, because publishing negative results isn't interesting, or you arent looking in the right place for peer-reviewed journal articles in good journals. I work in livestock health with a very strong emphasis on welfare. Your stories amount to anecdotes, not data.
who do you think funds research wbf? where does the money come from? pixies? the government? the EU? oh no, wait...
The funds I expect would come from Taxpayers pockets. Shame that they can't publish the negative as well as the positive results though. :thinking: The cheaper in the long run being taht nowadays you have to pay an absoloute arm and a leg for medicines, whereas if the correct information about them was to hand and how to use them you might be able to treat your animals more cheaply. But then doesn't the fault lie more with the drug companies who charge so much? By the way.... just as a point here drugs created by scientific methods are made using naturally based ingrediants, so whatever you use it can't be completely manmade, as they have to resource certain ingrediants from plants. ;D
-
It is a shame that this discussion has deteriorated. Taxpayer paying for drug research is a political point. Drug companies charge a lot for medicines because medicine R&D is horrendously expensive not least of all because the trials needed are horrendously expensive. And of course drug companies are privately funded and shareholders want a return on their money. Charities do some fundamental research but don't develop medicines although their misleading calls for money imply they do. The taxpayer can't even afford to buy medicines (hence NHS shortfall) and 60%! Of what is bought by the NHS is wasted by the user who forgets to use it. So the taxpayer cannot afford to develop drugs.
-
Hey come-on I know that Garlic can be bad too, but there is a lot to be said about it (that is for the ruminent side, not horses) ..... I used it in part to help treat an animal with mastitis, as the usual treatments hadn't worked, which the vet had given me, and I must say it made a huge amount of difference, I did use a newer treatment, which was new on the market, to treat her properly, but the garlic made a huge of a lot of difference to it. It cleared it up to a point where it could then be wiped out by the newer strain of antibiotic thingy which I was then prescribed. There is a lot to be said for natural treatments in animals, why should we ignore them? I agree that more research needs to be provided via data for people to then be able to decide as to whether it would work as well. Maybe we should be learning more about them instead of dismissing them so lightly. Who's for scientists doing more research into this, it could be highly interesting, and cheaper in the long run and better for the animals systems too?
I agree entirely about the efficacy of garlic for treating infections (albeit not for dogs, equines etc.)
It has been proved that garlic is a very effective bacteriocide and virucide for humans and I find it is the only thing effective against a cold. By taking high strength garlic capsules at the first sign (sore throat stage) of a cold - every 2 hours or so - the cold never properly comes out and is gone in 3 days.
It is well known that drug companies aren't interested in developing natural cures for illnesses because there are no vaste profits to be made. Quite simply - you can't patent naturally produced substances. Therefore there's no point in researching them as you cannot then exclusively market anything found to be effective, so you cannot charge inflated prices for what grows free naturally and is available to all.
That does not, however, mean that something has to be researched and peer reviewed in order for it to be accepted as an effective treatment. There is an awful lot of ancient knowledge about medicines that served us well before modern drugs and antibiotics were developed. (And I'm not talking about snake oil and potions made from heavens know what!). Look at such as honey that has been used to prevent infection of wounds since at least the time of the crusades. Copper sulphate is an old cure for sarcoids - it works and is a lot cheaper and less corrosive than Blood Ointment.
But - we are where we are. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but sometimes there's no harm in having an open mind, doing a bit of your own research, and thinking outside the box.
-
Fec fec fec. Why worry about worming when you dont have them? Vets and Pharmas have got us into a nasty routine of worming now theyve found resistance. Its all about the money as they say pharmaceuticals make millions out of cancer. Its a business. No scientist is going to be funded by a pharma to find a natural remedy. As scientists are no longer impartial and rely on funds of the major cheeses. If a remedy was found they would prob do their best to cover it up.
You prevent worms by 1. strip grazing 2. rotation 3. long grass. 4. keep away from wet ground/streams etc We use DE, salt and seaweed mixed into a lick bucket into a tyre. No issues over a year now.
-
Farmers wife thanks for your comments on an industry you have never worked in. Big Pharma has and does fund finding a 'natural remedy'. Try penicillin for one simple example that you may understand. They don't fund finding the obvious when there is no money to be made to cover the cost of finding the obvious. But that is obvious isn't it? Sorry but I have seem my son who was at deaths door with complications from a burst appendix immediately stop throwing up repeatedly on taking a drug I had been involved in developing in big pharma. That and the antibiotics saved his life. That same drug is used to reduce nausea in chemotherapy patients that would otherwise not be able to take their medication. Your comment on making millions out of cancer is very offensive to the thousands of people in this country who have created some of the most effective remedies out there. So where does you cynicism come from first hand knowledge or a lot of Internet antidote? Incidentally I agree with you regarding FEC and if you check the info coming from Big pharma so do they.
-
No scientist is going to be funded by a pharma to find a natural remedy. As scientists are no longer impartial and rely on funds of the major cheeses. If a remedy was found they would prob do their best to cover it up.
I'm not going to be quite as forthright as pharnorth, but I have worked in healthcare, pharmaceuticals and agrochemicals for over a decade, and that's simply not true! There is plenty of research being done by big pharma into naturally occurring compounds, to see if old remedies have any substance behind them (many do!). For example, I worked with one company who were researching alongside indigenous populations along the Amazon to find out what their folk remedies were, and to then research whether these could be made commercial. That is of course in addition to academic research, which need not be so commercially driven.
Sure, if we suddenly found that pineapple controlled worms in sheep, there wouldn't be a direct market for that. However, you'd probably find that a pharma company would isolate the responsible molecule from within the pineapple, and either extract and purify it, or make it synthetically for sale. So actually, yes of course scientists are still interested in that sort of thing.