The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: macgro7 on September 11, 2016, 02:05:55 pm
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Hi
Yesterday we went for the rare breed auction in Melton Mowbray and saw shetland sheep.
I knew how small they are in theory but have never actually seen them in real life especially in comparison to other breeds.
So far we've been only keeping poultry - chickens, ducks, turkeys and geese.
Never had any problems, neighbours complaining about the noise etc. Quite the opposite actually. My neighbours love the cockerel crowing lol
I have kept 10 geese and still had to mow the grass which means I have more than enough space for two little shetland ewes and their lambs (untill weaning I suppose).
My question is what other problems would I expect from keeping sheep in the city?
I do have a cph number etc
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What acreage do you have ?
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My suggestion would be - no sheep in the city. Goats are easier to keep in a non-grazing (or only little grating) situation, and also give you milk plus meat.... sheep really do need space...
Also keeping grazing animals with geese/waterfowl/poultry (as in shared grazing) has been known to lead to problems with campylobacter.
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If you only want them for interest, what about Ouessant sheep? Even smaller than Shetlands :)
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Probably better to try rabbits.
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Oh I do have plenty of rabbits!
We have about 3/4 of an acre so they would have grazing. It could be divided into three paddocks.
I'm planning to get rid of the geese which means there will be a lot more grass available
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I don't think of Shetlands as particularly tiny. They seem to eat as much as a larger sheep anyway.
If the sheep would be as lawn mowers, why not get wethers? If you have breeding ewes, then you have the problem of keeping or borrowing a tup (from where, in a city) and of disposing of the lambs - which when you just have a couple is difficult to do. If they would be going for meat, where is your nearest slaughter house?
For overwintering your sheep, they will need hay, and they may need some in summer too on such a small area, so will need a supplier and storage.
You will need access to a large animal vet, which can be difficult in a city. Many large animal vets will share medicines amongst a number of small breeders, but in a city you'll be on your own - many products come only in large sizes, for average commercial flocks.
You will need to learn to shear, or with Shetlands, to roo - not difficult and quite enjoyable, but if you don't do that you're unlikely to find a shearer in town.
On the plus side, you would have enough fleece each year to support a reasonable amount of spinning :spin: and Shetland wool is delicious to spin, mostly
Another plus is that livestock diseases would be uncommon in a city, unless you live beside a zoo.
Just a few points I can think of, but hopefully others will have more. Maybe a bit more info on your precise wants and position would help us to think of the practicalities. For example, when you say 'a city', how big is that city and are you in the centre or on the outskirts?
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I'm in Leicester. 16 miles away from the melton mowbray livestock market, where we can find a slaughter house certified for sheep and goats.
Not far from anything to be honest.
Having studied in a agricultural college (brooksby melton), I do have experience of working with sheep (shearing, crutching, drenching etc).
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OK. So what do you need to know?
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At the moment I am curious about laws regarding sheep or other livestock (or poultry) in the city.
I have seen someone keeping pygmy goats in Cardiff but not sure if there are any restrictions set by the councils perhaps?
I wanted to get goats before but my wife is not very fond of them (smell mainly - much more so than sheep).
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Have a search on your local council web site. They may even have a useful council officer. But to the best of my knowledge (second hand my Dad worked in this field) there are no blanket restrictions not least of all because urban or city can mean a multitude of things. You are open to neighbours complaining about noise or smell nuisances, but sheep should be less of an issue than some of the poultry. If this is your land and there are no bye laws or covenants then should be ok......
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Ok.
The only restriction we have is not to restrict waterfowl in the brook which flows through the middle of our property. We border an allotment site and also a small woodland to which we have the only access although it belong to the housing association which also owns several houses next door. But because the only access to this land is through a little bridge on OUR land we are the only people who can actually use it. This is also stated in our property deeds. People on next street have a very loud cockerel and our neighbours love it!
We had a stag turkey which was making a lot of noise and I had no complaints at all (he was annoying me though lol).
A pair of sheep won't be causing as many problems as my bunch of poultry.
Grazing and some hay for them would cost cheaper than buying feed for 50 birds...
I only want to keep quartet of chickens and trio of muscovies on top of the sheep.
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would fattening up a couple of lambs over the summer/autumn be an option? by the time the grass stops growing the lambs would be ready for freezer? This should minimise the need to buy drenches/vaccines etc which can make keeping a small flock a bit more expensive.
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I wanted to get goats before but my wife is not very fond of them (smell mainly - much more so than sheep).
Female goats do not smell! Neither does home-produced goatsmilk taste "goaty"....
Wet sheep do smell though....
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Getting couple of lambs to fatten was another option I might considering.
Or a couple of small breed of goats - golden guernsey or Baggott. I really don't like pigmy goats, no offence to their fans lol
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would fattening up a couple of lambs over the summer/autumn be an option? by the time the grass stops growing the lambs would be ready for freezer? This should minimise the need to buy drenches/vaccines etc which can make keeping a small flock a bit more expensive.
I agree. Even a few sheep on 3/4 acre would need hay through most of the WInter and would poach the ground around troughs and drinkers.
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would fattening up a couple of lambs over the summer/autumn be an option? by the time the grass stops growing the lambs would be ready for freezer? This should minimise the need to buy drenches/vaccines etc which can make keeping a small flock a bit more expensive.
I agree. Even a few sheep on 3/4 acre would need hay through most of the WInter and would poach the ground around troughs and drinkers.
Yes that's the thing. Also that would significantly increase risk of foot rot, unless I would pave/concrete a certain area?
Goats would do the same though
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I find my goats are no where near as heavy on the ground as my sheep. (Angora/ Ryelands). I don't think that is just down to weight though others with bigger breeds of goat may say differently
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Hmmm....
Finding ram is dead easy where we live. You can always buy one in melton in September and sell him back in a month.
Finding a Billy goat is not as easy...
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I always say have two, not three. If you have two and one dies, you need to find another. If you have three and one dies, the remaining ones still have company.
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Hmmm....
Finding a Billy goat is not as easy...
Laprascopic AI has a really good success rate, but you need to find a good vet or use ABEurope (Used to be Innovis). And with some forward planning - then sponging the girls and you can go on a pre-planned day to visit nearby billy for natural service, really not very difficult. And you won't even need a male on-site.... there will be GG's near you I am sure!
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Ok What about angora goats then? I've only seen one in real life. It was a really old Billy being sold for mutton in melton market...
Are the does big (heavy)?
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Does are about 30kg to 40kg. The product of course is mohair so twice yearly shearing. We started with a couple of wethers as they produce good mohair but no kids. Now we have a buck and several does. They don't often go to sales tend to be sold privately.
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And they have got terrible feet...
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And they have got terrible feet...
U mean goats?
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And they have got terrible feet...
Yes - Angoras. They aren't really meant to be in wet, damp Britain...., also goats (incl Angoras) will spend most of their winters inside... out of their choice. Goats don't do rain ((or snow).
U mean goats?
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Goats will prefer to eat your hedges not the grass.
With near neighbours for goats or sheep you'll have to be carefull they don't feed the animals something inappropriate or chuck hedge or lawn mowings into the paddock thinking they're doing you a favour with extra food.
You could become a magnet for local kids wanting to pet them.
I've found my angoras are more prone to foot problems than the dairy goats but the sheep have been worse this year.
It improved having kept them in all last winter out of the rain.
Goats are more work than sheep if your going to milk them. They don't need a buck every year though, I've one milking through a second year since kidding 2014.
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Depends on your conditions. Never had any problems with my Angoras feet. The sheep feet have been far more trouble, or at least the one I got from soggy Derbyshire is. They have a field shelter they choose to go in when it is solid rain but will be out in drizzle. On 3/4 of an acre in a city you will be keeping them fairly intensively some hard standing as you suggest that is kept clean would make a big difference
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Hi
Shetland sheep are great I would say get the them no shearing require as they can be pulled easily, they sometimes look untidy but there hard where a outs are you you can come and see ours anytime if your close we are in suffolk
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We are in Leicester.
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Bit to far I guess but, if you get some hope you enjoy them as much as we do.
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I'd love to come! Thanks for the invitation.
Maybe if you are passing by one day
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I asked a more goat specific question about the angora goat smell:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=77815.0 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=77815.0)
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As for the dietary preferences,
I know goats will eat docks, bindweed and a lot of other weeds.
Would sheep eat them to? I do have quite a lot of them + brambles + nettles
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Sheep will eat some docks but not too many, nettles when they are old, tree bark and leaves, many meadow plants, cow parsley.
Sheep will get stuck in brambles and stand there til they die unless you either scare them out or disentangle them.
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I've cut the brambles down and keep feeding the new growth to rabbits but they grow faster than I can cut them
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Long brambles aren't good with angoras, they can get very twisted up in them same as sheep.
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Not angoras, and I'm NO expert, but although I read loads and visited several goat keepers, no one told me what a pain in the butt goats can be. Mine were really needy!
I think it's mostly because they were bottle fed. They like being able to see me.
managed to soil their water after about half hour.
Wouldn't graze unless I was with them. (Lost all their condition and every ounce of fat before they finally tucked into the hawthorn and brambles!)
Won't eat a whole hay rack of hay/bundle leaves - they nibble it ravenously for 20mins then stand about bleating and yelling until I empty and refill.
New goat (just posted in your other thread: had been a bucks companion) and he knows how to be an animal and do things like graze, eat and drink water!
Just a wee heads up!
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Hmm. Well Steph Hen clearly had a bad experience but can't say I've come across this with my goats. Sounds more like a separation issue based on hand weaning and not enough animal to animal contact and not species dependent. These same issues arise in bottle fed 'pet lambs' they need to be left to socialise properly with their own kind.
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Ok i suppose i would have to go and see someone with angora...
You are right... I know a place where they keep only pygmy wethers and they don't really smell...
In another place they keep golden guernsey nannies but they have a Billy in a paddock next to them so I think the smell comes from him!
What about ouessant sheep vs shetland?
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Probably depends why you want them. Ouessant are tiny, about knee high for a mature wether.
I sheared a couple for a friend this year, they were really over fat just on grass. She has 2 wethers, 2 angoras does and 2 alpacas together on a (I think) 4 acre field with very lush grass.
If they are just for pets/grass mowers they'd do but very small joints and not worth the cost of processing of meat I don't think.
Sheep would suit better for grass mowers than goats, depends how weedy it is.
Angoars need shearing twice a year.
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They primary purpose would be pets/meat/grass+weed control.
As well as eating grass in our gardens on weekend they can graze at the allotment - I have a plot bordering my garden. They will have a lot of forage.
I'm still not sure which one to choose. Ouessant are smaller but generally more expensive and less people have them. Also limited colours.
In comparison to pygmy goats how much larger are adult shetland ewes?
I'd rather go with ewes instead of wethers...
I was just looking at the state of my "pastures" - near the house (front and back) mostly grass with clover and some dandelions and other weeds. Brambles growing from the edges.
On the other side of the brook, where chickens are at the moment there is lush grass but in some places there are a lot of docks and other weeds. Will shetland (or other primitive sheep) deal with the weeds as well as goats would? That's my only concern...
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I have a flock of mixed and crossbred primitives, and I'd say they do like varied foliage, yes, not just grass. In fact, be aware that they'll trim trees and hedges, and ringbark any young trees they can reach....
Shetland ewes are larger than pygmy goats.
If you're wanting smaller sheep with interesting colours, might you be persuaded to look at one of the rarer breeds, to help the breed as well as to have nice and interesting sheep? For instance, North Ronaldsay. Or Boreray.
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Yes why not. What size are the north ronaldsay and boreray in comparison to shetlands?
Another breed I wanted to have for quite some time is portland.
They are all roughly the same size right? Are portland more like the lowland sheep or have they got the same eating habits as northern breeds?
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I'd say NR, Boreray and Shetlands are roughly similar in size, Portlands a wee bit larger, but still not large.
All have fleece of interest to handspinners, by the way ;). NR and Boreray more of an acquired taste, being double-coated, but popular for their colours and rarity. Portland very easy-going fleece, nice to spin, suitable for sweaters and so on. [member=11700]Tiva Diva[/member] has Portlands.
Shetlands... a good Shetland fleece is a dream - but there are a lot of Shetland fleeces around, as the breed isn't rare, and many spinners either know a local flock that has good fleeces or just mail order one from Jamieson & Smith, the Woolbrokers on Shetland. Not to put you off the breed (I think they're wonderful), but to set your expectations.
Mind, any of these breeds' fleeces in the city would be of interest to spinners who aren't used to being able to get fleece locally!
Sorry, I'm a bit of a fleece nut :spin: :spin:
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Thanks very much! My wife's uncle actually sells wool in his shop lol
And he gets a lot of people who say spin wool from their own sheep. I'd probably leave it in his shop to sell!
I was looking at weights and there are minor differences. Now it's just personal preference - look wise my wife liked shetland and portland the most
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Shetlands are a lot easier to source, come in lots of colours, ewes are polled. Portlands all the same colour, harder to source, both sexes horned. Lambs the cutest fox red. Both breeds usually lamb easily, good mothers, etc. Both breeds taste wonderful :yum:
Let us know what you choose and how you get on! Pictures are, of course, obligatory ;)
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There are some people who have both nearby (on preloved) so getting either is not a problem.
Personally I like polled ewes but we ll see ;)
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If you want polled what about Gotlands. Very nice natured and easy to handle and gorgeous fleece.
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Gotland a are nice too.
Look at this picture I found:
(http://bretonmeadowfarm.com/images/SheepSize.png)
Shetland and ouessant are my top choices.
Ouessant are so tiny! Wouldn't fox eat them???
Shetlands wouldn't have that problem?
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hmm creative imaging perhaps..... The breed standard does call for adult ouessants to be under 49cm at the shoulder ( rams) and ewes under 46cm this does make them relatively small but in comparison to a boreray ... I wouldn't say there is a huge amount in it.
I don't have a problem with foxes with my ouessants. I used to watch a fox wander through the rams paddock often enough and no one was fussed so I guess that isn't a problem.
Lambs do have a habit of walking through the fencing though.....
Faolan Mature Ouessant ram 46cm at the shoulder
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/faolan.jpg)
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Do you think I should fence the brook off for sheep keeping purposes? Or could I leave it as it's is. Well on one side I will definitely fence it of to keep babies away from water.
Would 3 foot fence be enough for shetlands or shall I do 4 foot like the other one which is already there?
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/7587848/width/200/height/400)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/7587851/width/200/height/400)
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Shetlands can jump 4ft from standing.... easily. Last year my tup lamb (!) jumped the standard fence to get in with the ladies...
The lighter the sheep the easier it can jump.
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Wow! Maybe I should get some fatty ones then lol
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Lol Ryelands don't jump :-)
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My Dorset Downs don't jump, I keep the ewes in with three strands of elec wire. Nice fleeces as well, not too big and very docile :love:
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(http://up.picr.de/19886832ze.jpg)
That's a good comparison! Ouessant are tiny!!! That's a picture from a German website.
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Is it me or is that a big Jacob??
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Massive jacob and tiny ouessant (young)
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Is it me or is that a big Jacob??
No it is a small woman! :roflanim:
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For those who are interested the black ram featured in the photo. He measured in at 43cm at around 18 months old; ( roughly that age in the picture) He topped out at 47cm at around 3.5 years.
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Ooo!!!
I still don't know what breed would be the best for us!!!
I like shetlands because of many colours they have.
Boreray is something I've been reading about a lot recently. I like white sheep and their lambs are so beautiful! Plenty of rams for sale on preloved, but can't see any ewes!
Portland are also fantastic! Used to be dairy breed and quite different looking from Northern primitive breeds.
Ouessant would be nice but why are they so ridiculously expensive?!?! I've seen then in Polish adverts and they cost the same as other small sheep .I. E. Cheap!
Soay - to be honest I don't really like them that much (looking wise)... but people seem to give them for pennies around here. No one wants them?
North ronaldsay - found them near us. Cheap as well. But have been reading about them and it says they are much more likely to get copper poisoning from pasture - so I'm not sure about them..
All small beautiful breeds, mostly rare and in need of more people keeping them