The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: BrimwoodFarm on September 06, 2016, 04:34:33 pm
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I have a dream, and it involves a small herd of Dexters and attempting to establish a top quality breeding line. However, I have absolutely ZERO experience with cattle. Are there any great resources (books etc) I can be looking at? :eyelashes:
It'll be several years before I'm in a position to start buying any of these beautiful creatures, but I may as well use the time to do some homework. It doesn't need to be Dexter-based; general info on cattle would be good too. All I remember is my granddad having a grump heifer called Daisy who'd physically abuse us kids whenever we got within reach. ;)
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Look to learn flushing and embryo to start ,iff I was starting I would go for 10 nice dexters then I would use straws instead of a bull .You could sell the 10 the next season and use the young stock .So the bull of choice would be Apple Coda M5218 EX94, it would be inposabul to have a bull this good .The stock http://wagyu.co.uk/highland-wagyu-cattle/dexter/ (http://wagyu.co.uk/highland-wagyu-cattle/dexter/). http://www.dextercattleforsale.co.uk (http://www.dextercattleforsale.co.uk)
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There are resources on TAS you might find useful.
Introduction to keeping cattle: http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/)
Cattle books: http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/category/cattle/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/category/cattle/)
[member=13]Rosemary[/member] will be able to advise which books she's found most useful, but IIRC the Val Porter Caring for Cows and Cows for the Smallholder are worth a read.
HTH.
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I would also talk to top breeders how they do it, or members of the society/society heads too. Go to sales, suck up as much info, watch judges poke and prod the animals, but most importantly have a vision in your mind what you would like them to look like. Try and spend a lot of time talking to people and at sales walking around, feeling the animals. How fast they grow? Carcasses, weight, easy birthing, good on feet, good bags with plenty of milk for calves. All very important. The main question is what would you like them to be? What do you want them for, showing/breeding for meat etc, etc. Hope this helps and all the best with your search. Here is something which may help http://www.dextercattle.co.uk/ (http://www.dextercattle.co.uk/)
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Thanks [member=1]Dan[/member] and [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] - great resources and places to start learning!
As it's first and foremost a smallholding, I want to have a little herd of good dual purpose animals I can get milk and meat from. But I'd love to develop some really good bulls too for showing/breeding. That way I can provide milk and meat for my own family, as well as selling locally, but also gain some additional income from selling both bulls and sperm.
Off to enjoy those links :D
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Can I ask why you have decided on Dexters [member=160088]BrimwoodFarm[/member]
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Can I ask why you have decided on Dexters [member=160088]BrimwoodFarm[/member]
Is the right answer 'because I love them'? ;D
Being a non-cow person, I like their small size. I also like the fact they're dual purposes - the Dexter site says you can average 10-12 litres which would be MORE than adequate for me and family with a little extra to sell locally too. I've also read several articles on the fact they're a good grazing cow too, particularly for slightly wild pasture - ideal for the land I currently have.
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I guess that will be with the calf off, then you'll have the calf to feed as well, milking twice a day.
I'd be interested in where they get their yield figures from since I'd guess not many folk milk them to *get* the yield.
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Yeah, the only info I've found on that so far is on the Dexter society website. It does mention a cow could raise her own calf along with a larger commercial breed so would there be an option to have the cow raise her own and still take off some milk?
This was my source: http://www.dextercattle.co.uk/the-breed/why-dexters/ (ftp://www.dextercattle.co.uk/the-breed/why-dexters/)
I saw some Red Polls are a local show this year too; also fairly small, so that's another avenue I may look into. Might be especially apt since they're derived from Norfolk/Suffolk cattle and my land is right on the border so would be keeping with plans to establish local breed varieties.
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The native breed factor is why we went with Shetlands - we wanted a Scottish breed (and a rare one) - so I could see why the Red Polls would appeal.
What you're thinking about is multisuckling - so twinning on a calf along with the cow's own. I honestly doubt whether you'd get milk for yourself doing that. Shetlands are certianly used for multisuckling.
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/multiple-suckling-with-shetland-cattle/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/multiple-suckling-with-shetland-cattle/)
We've been milking our three Shetlands, but leaving the calf on and milking once a day - but after eight weeks, we were getting hardly anything - 4l off three cows. Next yera, I think I'll take the calves off an feed them cows' milk but it means milking twice a day. And feeding twice a day.
My vet said he'd divorce me if I got Dexters ;D
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Aha. Does that mean you wrote the wonderful TAS guide?! Lots of awesome info there. I didn't realise about the cow and sheep grazing option, for example. Great way to maximise pasture.
What's your vet got against Dexters?!
Red Polls are pretty lovely. I'm already planning on Ixworth chickens and Suffolk sheep, so they'd certainly fit with the theme. I think they're also more dual purpose than Dexters which, I believe, have become bred towards beef more than dual in recent years.
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Dexters can have unpredictable behaviour, so I have read, so you would have to carefully study any breeders, how they keep them and their temperaments before buying. If you have the funds, provided the animals in question have all the right attributes, it mightb be worth buying some of the very best, if you can. It will take quite a few years to breed up and breed out any traits you don't like, before you have a really, really good herd. I hope it all goes really well for you.
All the best :thumbsup:
WBF
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Many people start off with Dexters (including me!) because of their size. But as WBF suggests, they are (how can I put it?) not the most placid of animals.
I once had one that I bought in as an adult, that tried to kill me. I didn't keep her long!
But those I've raised from calves have been placid enough, as they're well handled, but they sillt have quite strong characters.
I do think though that you are expecting to do too much with them. As you rightly say, they are a dual purpose animal. But the favoured ones are the beef types, and having been selected for their meat characteristics, their milking qualities will have deteriorated. Until recently there was a milking herd of Dexters, and the milk yield you quoted was probably from this herd. But their conformation as meat animals would be nothing like that which you would need to aim at nowadays for your proposed top breeding herd.
You might find that Red Polls would be better for your requirements, not only because they have a calmer temperament, but also, bearing in mind that very few animals become top prize winners, then those that don't make it will still have a more marketable carcase.
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I don't know where you are based but if you want to witness the difference between Dexter and Shetland characters pay us a visit here in S Wales ... we have both and the differences are evident.
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And this is why I'm asking all these questions now..... ;) I had NO idea of their unpredictable behaviour. I was thinking small = easier to handle; seems not.
Red Polls seem to be coming up trumps at the moment. There's one thing for the 'I've always wanted Dexters...' but RPs definitely seem to be ticking the right boxes.
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Brimwood - I'm not actually saying that all Dexters are difficult to handle - just warning you that they are less reliably loveable than most other native breeds.
But as a smallholder I personally think there is a lot to be said for following your heart. So if you've always wanted a Dexter, then I'd say get one. :excited: You're only here once, so at least try one and make your own mind up. I would suggest maybe getting a young heifer that's halter trained and at least you'd have an idea about how quiet she is. I must admit there is a certain charm about small cattle, and even when they're arguing with you they're still a lot easier to handle than a big continental. You could always have your little Dexter and keep a more commercial breed as well which you could cross her with to get a marketable calf.
In spite of what I said about Dexters, I still have one left that I put to our Hereford bull each year. She produces a good sized calf that always fetches a decent price in the fatstock market.
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Ahh, hell, don't say that [member=6533]landroverroy[/member] - I don't need more encouragement! :excited: :excited:
It's still a loooooong way off but that means lots of time to go to shows, talk to breeders and get up close with some animals. I do like Red Polls too. I'd never considered them before, but saw some at the Suffolk Show this year and thought they looked pretty charming, and way smaller than many other breeds.
It's hard when you're starting out and have ZERO experience. But, man, it's FUN!
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Well you definitely seem to be going about things the right way Brimwood.
Like they say - "Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted." :farmer:
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We had dexters and all except one were quiet and easy to manage. They were tb tested in a shed with no restraint, lived out all year with no concentrates and our old girl produced a calf every year with no assistance. Her last lactation she also reared two calves that weren't hers and we milked her for the house to.
We've just sent our last calf to the butchers and the old girl died last year. We are planning to replace her soon.
Plus the meat is delicious :yum:
Chose the breed you like the most, after all your the one that has to look at it daily!
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[member=25947]Sbom[/member] That's really good to hear; both about their nature and the fact you managed to milk her for the house too.
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They have a reputation for being noisy ....?
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Which [member=27063]Marches Farmer[/member] ....Dexters or Red Poll? Or both?!
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Humane Cattle Handling by Temple Grandin is a great book for understanding cattle behavior and how to handle them.
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That's great. Thanks [member=25668]oor wullie[/member] , I'll look it up :D Another book to add to the bedside stack!
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Humane Cattle Handling by Temple Grandin is a great book for understanding cattle behavior and how to handle them.
On my Christmas list :santa:
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I went to Amazon but couldn't fine a specific cattle one. There is, however, a livestock variant - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1603420282/ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1603420282/)
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They have a reputation for being noisy ....?
Presume you mean Dexters?
I can agree with that. But it's not unsurmountable unless you have them just near your back door in which case they do have a tendency to sound off every time they see you. The worse thing you can do if this happens is to feed them to keep them quiet, because you are actually rewarding them for making a row and they get worse.
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I went to Amazon but couldn't fine a specific cattle one. There is, however, a livestock variant - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1603420282/ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1603420282/)
Ah yes, sorry I got the title wrong, that's the one.
It also talks about sheep and pigs hence the title is 'livestock' rather than 'cattle'.
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Sounds good to me [member=25668]oor wullie[/member] , especially as I intend to keep those too. ;)