The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: farmers wife on June 28, 2016, 10:25:01 pm
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Now firstly. I want to know the facts on worms in poultry. Seeing that we are organic cattle breeders and small flock of sheep we have stopped worming and the worry of resistance is another. Supporting the pharmaceuticals is another.
Both my husband and myself are questioning the over use of wormer in poultry as much as all the other pharmaceutical necessities that are a huge input in farming. Crikey cant believe the cost for chickens.
Surely worming is a modern practice people who kept poultry years back didnt have worming meds - so what did they use? I dont believe they had chickens dropping dead every day.
Seems to me every aliment listed comes up with have you wormed them? Truly and honestly how do you know if the hen needs it? To be strictly sure a poo sample is the only way - does anyone do this? Does the vet offer a service?
Our hens are on pasture and exposed to wild birds, moved regularly but some weeks not enough (time). I like many get soft shells. Our hens have organic pellets, seaweed meal, kitchen waste, oyster shell and all the bugs they can eat.
Anyone throw more light on this???
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Seems to me every aliment listed comes up with have you wormed them? Truly and honestly how do you know if the hen needs it?
No, probably not. But the only problems we've ever had with ducks or geese magically went away after a dose of Panacur - just sayin'!
To be strictly sure a poo sample is the only way - does anyone do this? Does the vet offer a service?
They were a bit bemused when I asked, as they'd never done one before. They did do it though, and it came back as no treatment needed. That is for hens who've been free ranging over the same (large) area for probably ten years.
Edit - BTW, it's far cheaper to buy 20kg of flubenvet treated layers pellets than it is to buy the same quantity of 'pure' flubenvet plus a sack of normal pellets. That doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it is!
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We worm our free range hens once a year with Flubenvet, and have done for the past few years. Prior to that, we didn't worm. Then we had a hen with a strange ailment which killed her and seemed to be caught from eating earthworms - which she did in vast quantities. Sounds weird. We also had the odd hen which sounded as if she had worms in her throat. I must say that our hens have no mucky bums now and seem generally healthier, not that they were bad before.
In the past people would have used plant remedies against worms. Who's to know how many losses they suffered?
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Our hens are on pasture and exposed to wild birds, moved regularly but some weeks not enough (time). I like many get soft shells. Our hens have organic pellets, seaweed meal, kitchen waste, oyster shell and all the bugs they can eat.
Like pigs, it is illegal to feed chickens kitchen waste...
You could certainly get the vet to check faecal samples for egg counts, or post mortem any that die to get a better idea as to requirement for worming.
Worms have often developed due to increased in intensive farming practices, so in the old days there would have been fewer around and with low stocking densities and rotational grazing plans there would have been less disease due to worms. But equally there were fewer medications for anything and higher losses and generally lower production would have been the norm.
I wouldn't have thought any soft shelled eggs would be normal with feeding layers pellets and grit, so personally I'd be consulting your vet to see what is going through your flock.
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Like pigs, it is illegal to feed chickens kitchen waste...
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[/size]Lol thats another law to ignore then ::) [/size]- seeing we eat a mainly organic diet. Like the good old days it worked well. My chickens have all the veg waste, nuts, shells, bits of fat & crusts and this will continue. Vet always comment on how well they look and apart from the odd soft shell no issues.
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Worms have often developed due to increased in intensive farming practices, so in the old days there would have been fewer around and with low stocking densities and rotational grazing plans there would have been less disease due to worms. But equally there were fewer medications for anything and higher losses and generally lower production would have been the norm.
Hence the reason why we rotate our grazing and follow the Joel Salatin methods. Our cattle never show worms in samples.
Will speak to the vet and see about getting samples. I do have a microscope but struggle to get head or tail of using it plus I would need to know what I'm looking at.
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Like pigs, it is illegal to feed chickens kitchen waste...
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[/size]Lol thats another law to ignore then ::) [/size]- seeing we eat a mainly organic diet. Like the good old days it worked well. My chickens have all the veg waste, nuts, shells, bits of fat & crusts and this will continue. Vet always comment on how well they look and apart from the odd soft shell no issues.
I think that's what most smallholders and household poultry keepers do... but -wisely - don't publicise it on a public forum... If you are selling eggs to the public you may make yourself liable to alll sorts of things...
Ps.: I don't ever worm my hens...
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Whether or not you eat organic, vegan, macrobiotic or any other particular diet it doesn't stop bacteria and viruses infecting food - see H5NI, Foot & Mouth Disease, SARS, etc.
I worm free ranging birds in late Spring (before the breeding season) and Autumn (to get them in good fettle for Winter).
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Our hens are on pasture and exposed to wild birds, moved regularly but some weeks not enough (time). I like many get soft shells. Our hens have organic pellets, seaweed meal, kitchen waste, oyster shell and all the bugs they can eat.
Like pigs, it is illegal to feed chickens kitchen waste...
You could certainly get the vet to check faecal samples for egg counts, or post mortem any that die to get a better idea as to requirement for worming.
Worms have often developed due to increased in intensive farming practices, so in the old days there would have been fewer around and with low stocking densities and rotational grazing plans there would have been less disease due to worms. But equally there were fewer medications for anything and higher losses and generally lower production would have been the norm.
I wouldn't have thought any soft shelled eggs would be normal with feeding layers pellets and grit, so personally I'd be consulting your vet to see what is going through your flock.
Agree with fsmnutter, more extensive ground, less stocking density, less production in previous years tended to mean that there would be less exposure to worms in years past and less need for wormers. The people that did have higher stocking/set stocking would have just suffered more loss as there weren't the drugs to help too.
The good news is that if you specifically follow a stocking regime geared towards minimising worm contamination, you will likely need less wormer. Learning all about worms and about ground management can really help in that regard. There's a fab vet and poultry judge called Victoria Roberts who produces books. Her website is vicvet something - you could always check out the blurb on her material and see if any of the publications suit your needs. I met her at a vet conference, she's great.
You'd probably want to get the chickens worm-egg-counted a few times in the first year (or couple of years, depending on what you find) just to get a picture of what is going on on your ground but then after that, if there are not many worms, you might find it cheaper just to worm-egg-count at "a key time/or key times" of the year to keep an eye out rather than worming.
Specialist poultry worm egg counts and poultry postmortem examinations are available from various places in Scotland, England and Wales. I know because I work for one of the places! (SAC Consulting in Scotland).
Really great to see people so enthusiastic about reducing medication needs in production animals, also good solid replies, you're all fab.
Hopefully free chicken online talks soon - I'll try to remember to stick a lot of stuff about worming in them, and I'll post dates online as soon as I work out when I am going to do them...
Obviously contact with wild birds means there will never be no worm or disease risk unfortunately, but there is a lot you can do to minimise risks and still use less in the way of medication if that is the production type you are aiming for. Always take advice from a vet though, when changing your prophylactic health regime, even just a quick run-by on the phone - you need to avoid an accidental parasite breakdown at all costs or your ground could get very "poultry sick" quickly if you do something wrong by mistake. A quick chat is sometimes all it takes to avoid a problem.
C
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For years I've used Verm-X, initially it was sold as a wormer I think but it's actually not - however when I did a FEC last year it came back clear. I use Westgate Labs for both horses and hens, it's not cheap but it set my mind at rest. Earlier this year though my little flock seemed to have lost condition and a few of them had messy bottoms, so I fed them the Flubenvet-treated layers pellets for a week, their general health did seem to pick up, but I won't be doing it routinely - I'm planning another FEC in the autumn so if they need it I can treat again before winter.
We have 23 hens free ranging over 4 acres, I don't limit them to any particular pasture so no question of moving them around, and I also rotate horses, sheep and cattle round the paddocks - recent FECs for sheep and horses were very low and no treatment required. I'm a relative novice, but I do think under- rather than over-stocking helps, as does the mix of livestock and poultry. hth :)
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Im sure my vets would do a count but too lazy to drive it there and not enroute or worth in future when the vet calls TB, general etc I will take a sample.
For now I am looking on the net for options. x10 samples £16
Flubenvet - 60g over covers 20 hens so in essence I would need to buy x4 packs = £112 However last year the vet sent me down pig wormer at a fraction of this.
I'm def going to get sample tested and report back.
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Just because wormer didn't exist hundreds of years ago doesn't mean it isn't a good thing to have - it's not just humans that benefit from modern medicine.
A few years ago one of my hens was really ill because of worms, I didn't realise that's what caused her to be so under the weather and wormed them before making the appointment with the vet because I knew the vet would ask when the last time was they'd been wormed (which was more than 6 months earlier). Thank goodness I did. She started picking up within 24 hours of being given the wormer, and within 5 days she was her usual hyperactive looney self again, the difference was amazing. That's what worms can do to a animal!
Our neighbours are very laissez-faire about the care of their animals, but when I mentioned worming them and gave them feed with the Flubenvet in it, as if by magic their egg numbers soon after increased at the time when they should have been going down (late summer).
I don't know where ours picked it up from and they are kept VERY clean but that doesn't matter anyway, once they've had worms they need worming. Why would you deny them good care.
I agree with the comments re lowering stocking density and reducing unnecessary medication, btw. But sometimes medication is a good thing.
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I find sheep or cattle wormer very effective for cattle. eg panacur, valbazene, ivomec. Just work out hen sized dose and add to their food. I find it's best to add the total amount divided up over about 5 days.
If you have Ivomec pour on (or similar - Dectomax etc) that is also effective. I put a couple of drops on the birds - high up on their necks where they don't preen and it kills any external parasites also.
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I worm my hens with flubenvet twice a year. Since starting to do this they are noticeably cleaner behind and in general seem to be much healthier birds. They are not on the biggest patch of land so whilst free ranging for 18 hours a day in summer it is now mainly bare ground so I think it's important to worm regularly.
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As somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, never buy Flubenvet on its own. It's only about £12 to buy a sack of Marriages layers including the Flubenvet which is an on-cost of less than £4 per sack. With 80 hens I guess you'd get through three or four sacks for the required week? So total cost of worming realistically is £12 to £16.
Personally I worm only once a year because it's the only time of year - mid-winter, preferably with the ground frozen hard - that I can be sure they're getting all of their food from the pellets and not foraging additional stuff. But I do know that the only time I've had sick chickens, they have tested with quite a few worms - and the first was only a few months after moving into a new run, with lots of free ranging too (and the run itself is 160m2 and at that stage only had six chickens in it so hardly overstocked). I think it was more because they were sick, they were less resistant to worms but we do now automatically worm them with Panacur if they're sick with something else.
Re. further up about kitchen waste. If you are eating all the eggs yourself and consuming any meat yourself, I don't believe it is illegal. However, if you are selling on eggs or meat, then you are breaking the law and you certainly shouldn't be proud of it. Like any food hygiene regulations, it's there to ensure you are not risking 'the general public' (if you risk yourself, you're fine). Also, if you don't already have insurance to cover sales to the public, you'd be wise to get it in place. If somebody caught salmonella that could be traced back to your flock, you would be held accountable - and if they found any evidence that you'd been feeding kitchen waste you'd be open to prosecution. Ironically it's fine to feed stuff brought in from a supermarket or garden waste that has not been via your kitchen....
Hester
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The rules against feeding kitchen waste apply regardless of whether the meat or eggs go into the food chain. It is law that was put in place to reduce risks of disease. In 2001 we had a massive foot and mouth outbreak, which started due to feeding swill to pigs. Any kitchen waste that carries contamination from infected meat can spread disease to the farm animals you feed it to, then wildlife such as wild birds can rapidly spread that around to neighbouring farms and further afield.
No-one will thank you if you can be traced as the start of the next big disease outbreak.
Regarding using cattle and sheep wormers, this is classed as "off label" use and should only ever be done in consultation with your vet, and bear in mind that withdrawal periods for meat and eggs must be applied. Your vet will be able to advise on how long this would be. Flubenvet has no egg withdrawal so is safest to use if you are selling eggs.
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All good advice fsmnutter.
The trouble with following government advice (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/government-posters/) though, is it can be so inconsistent! ;)
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Advice certainly can change as we learn from our mistakes.
"Dose and move" used to be strongly advised when worming as no more worms would be ingested if stock were moved to clean pasture, but as we learnt about resistance to wormers, the advice changed to leave them on dirty pasture to prevent only resistant worms from surviving and populating the clean pasture!
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Personally I worm only once a year because it's the only time of year - mid-winter, preferably with the ground frozen hard - that I can be sure they're getting all of their food from the pellets and not foraging additional stuff. But I do know that the only time I've had sick chickens, they have tested with quite a few worms - and the first was only a few months after moving into a new run, with lots of free ranging too (and the run itself is 160m2 and at that stage only had six chickens in it so hardly overstocked). I think it was more because they were sick, they were less resistant to worms but we do now automatically worm them with Panacur if they're sick with something else.
Hester
It's the other way around, having worms denies them good nutrition and hence strong health.
So you know your birds have worms yet you don't worm them unless it runs them down so badly they also come down with something else...
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Article in this week's Farmers Guardian about a study done on lambs by the University of Dublin, where they found lambs on pasture containing six types of grass weighed an average of 4kg more at weaning than lambs on just rye grass and white clover, and needed worming less often. Those on nine types of grass did even better. Could be the variety of nutrients produced healthier lambs all round, more able to cope with a worm burden.
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yes we mob graze our sheep and cows on good grazing so far not bought any wormer in some time. Seeing that you guarantee to need to buy 2 bottles here could mean a £200 - £300 fee to pfizer thank you very much. We need to plant some new lays which will incorporate lucerne and clovers but too pricey at the mo.
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I believe it's illegal either way. Hens are 'livestock' and musn't be fed anything which has been through any sort of kitchen. If you are selling eggs it would be foolish to ignore this. For a few hens in the garden for your own use...........it's still illegal but then so are a lot of things.
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So you know your birds have worms yet you don't worm them unless it runs them down so badly they also come down with something else...
No, as I said, I worm them yearly - and at any other time of year, I would have to contain them inside for a week which is just not doable with 80ish birds. But only a few months into owning chickens (four years ago), one of my bought in birds brought in avian leucosis with it which then killed half my (at that stage small) flock and meant I had to keep a closed flock for six months until they were tested clear. So the disease was irrelevant of worm burden but part of the post-mortem testing revealed those that died were high in worms. Testing since of healthy birds has only shown very low worm counts. But thanks for the judgement without actually reading my reply or checking your facts!
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Yes, you wrote that you worm once a year - in the same paragraph that you said your tested hens had "quite a few worms" which obviously makes worming once a year so insufficient it's not much better than not doing anything at all.
If you don't like someone's judgment, maybe you should look at what you originally wrote and the facts you did and did not include.
And you still have the link between illness and worms wrong, that's basic chicken care.
But anyway, this is an old thread now, the original OP got useful information out of it so I consider this now closed.
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Surely both of these views are correct though?: Worms can make otherwise healthy hens ill. Also hens that become ill for some other reason (or even just moulting) will start carrying more worms, because their own natural resistance has declined.
The same thing is seen in sheep where worm numbers in the gut increase around lambing time because the rest of the body and immune system is under additional pressure. That's my understanding anyway!
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Thanks Womble - that's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, it was the vet that said it. So when the hens were ill (only a few months old, irrelevant of my yearly worming routine, they'd been wormed on arrival and were already high worm count just weeks later), the vet explained that if they were ill with something else, their immune systems were compromised and they would therefore find it harder to fight the worms. So it's chicken and egg - or in this case ill hen and worm.
I just object to the immediate leap from that point to the conclusion that I wait for all of my hens to get so ill with worms, they then come down with something else because there is absolutely no evidence of that. In respect to the original thread, my hens have a lot of space so their natural worm burden (as evidenced by vet testing) is extremely low to zero despite the yearly worming routine. My point was that if a hen gets ill with something else, it is worth worming them so that they have one less thing to compromise their immunity. So just to clarify - my chickens are all healthy, happy chucks. I can't remember when I last lost one - certainly none since last year - and many are now three or four. BUT if any of my birds get ill, the vet will normally give me a wormer in tandem with any other medicine they need so that we can be sure they are clear of worms. OK?
As for old thread, closed or not - that's not really up to you Eve. The joy of a forum like this is that it's possible to return to threads that are several years old to remind yourself of advice. In fact, I must go back to one on Fresias from years ago because I've found a solution to something I was requesting help on then!