The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Womble on May 02, 2016, 09:32:50 pm
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Hi folks,
I'm sorry to upload gratuitous t1t pictures to the internet, but let's face it, I'm not the first! ;D I'll phone the vet in the morning, but in the meantime, what do you reckon to this? :-\
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/tit1.jpg)
I'm not sure if this is just over-hungry lambs who've caused damage with their teeth, or something worse. The whole teat feels quite stiff, but I can still get normal looking milk out. Her other teat looks similar but not nearly as bad.
She's got three lambs in tow at the moment, and two have been taking top-ups. Should we take one or more off her to give her an easier time, or would that be counter-productive? Also what treatment would you recommend? She's had blue spray and sudocreme tonight. Anything else we should try?
Also this one is on another ewe, and I wonder if it's the same thing but just caught earlier. There are definite hard pustules just under the skin. I should say that none of the lambs are showing any signs of orf that I can see. Again, any ideas what this is, and what we should do about it?
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/tit2.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/tit3.jpg)
Thanks folks! :thumbsup:
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Can't help as am a newbie too :-D
But dude, your poor sheep being photographed like that, did they consent? Are they over 18?
There's a word for men like you :-P
Seriously hope it's.nothing too bad and it gets better soon... Poor sheep's :sheep:
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Looks like orf and an infection as a result. Spray em blue and treat with ab :thumbsup:
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Since you are already feeding 2 of the lambs I would take them off , since you have been topping up it implies that she doesn't have enough milk so the lambs have been over rough , chances are she won't let them suckle on the really bad teat . May even be orf on the bad teat , lots of cream and milking if you can or mastitis may develop
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Oh dear. This is the trouble with leaving triplets on; they myther on, and if the ewe doesn't kick them off, damage results.
Personally I'd take off one lamb at least, use udder salve to treat the teats (I'm not sure about lambs eating Sudocrem!) and be very vigilant about mastitis. When I've had ewes in this condition, I'm afraid mastitis has been the outcome :(
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1st kidder goats often get small pustules like that on their udders - and it isn't orf (if it is the lambs should have it on their mouths too), but it could well be simply staphylococcal dermatitis (false goat pox). It is not painful and milk yield should not be affected. I have found that a quick spray with Bactakil is very effective, but it is almost certainly not what the vet would advise... it may well go of its own accord, I have never seen it in my sheep, but then I do not check their udders unless I have reason to (mastitis etc).
The first one is over enthusiastic lambs, have seen it before and one of my ewes did get serious mastitis after it and had to be culled... If the lambs take the bottle - I would take them off, maybe bar one, as she probably does not have enough milk for three... how old are the lambs and how close to weaning?
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She probably won't let them suck that side much but if you take them off she'll very likely get mastitis, although she very likely will anyhow. Blue spay first them when dry, lots of cream and draw regularly to check for mastitis and if she does develop it draw and tube her regularly to have any hope of saving the quarter.
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Thanks all. Sometimes I wonder if my only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others! ::)
The lesson this time is just how quickly this can happen. The lambs are all still thriving even though she was only letting them feed from one side. I do think (hope?) it's just bite marks rather than orf - wouldn't the lambs have it too if it were orf? Hopefully we've caught this in time and they'll heal without developing mastitis; time will tell :fc: .
So:
- I've taken two of the triplets off her tonight, along with one of the twins from the other ewe who's starting to suffer.
- I've also milked out the affected quarter (I could do this quite easily without causing her pain), and will continue to do so to hopefully prevent mastitis.
- I'll pick up some udder cream in the morning, and will speak to the vet about possibly giving a long acting antibiotic as a preventative.
One question - the separated lambs are currently in the shed and were bawling their heads off until I turned off the light! Am I right in thinking I should put them back out tomorrow in the field next door to the ewes, so they can still see their mums?
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If the lambs come happily to you for their bottle I would have them near, but not that they can get to her.
And yes I would give a course of Pen&Strep to the ewe to prevent mastitis, especially if she is tame enough to let you milk her. Which you also need to continue...
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Best of luck Womble and you do provide a very interesting example so please let us know outcome.
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OK, pen made, all lambs separated and fed (the twin had never had a bottle before, so that was fun). Ewe milked. Off to work for a sit down!
This morning's lesson - never try to carry a lamb through a gate with a bottle of lamlac under your arm. Second shower required this morning to wash it out of my ear and hair. Doesn't actually taste too bad though! ;D
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If you put the lambs back so they can see and hear their mothers ,their just going to bleet all day and try to get back together
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Point taken Shep. Practically though, I can't keep them out of earshot, and if they can hear Mum but not see her, they'll cry for each other all day anyway. As it is, with only a fence between them, Mum seems happy enough, and so are the lambs as long as they have full tummies. We'll keep this under review.
I noticed this morning that one of the lambs has unusually sharp teeth, and a weird way of biting / pulling at the bottle teat rather than sucking it, so maybe that's been the problem. Perhaps she started doing that because Mum was short of milk, but in that case why did neither of them want much in the way of top-ups? (We were offering the bottle as much to check they weren't hungry as to actually feed them anything).
The vet has prescribed Betamox Alamycin LA (vet changed their mind) to hopefully prevent mastitis from developing, along with Metacam as an anti inflammatory and pain killer. I also picked up a lifetime's supply of udder cream. Very disappointed to discover the instructions didn't tell me to slap it udderneath.
Also, penning the lambs next to the ewes has worked fine. The ewes aren't stressed at all and just go about their business, whilst the lambs are fine as long as well fed. They have a covered bed, creep and water, and have made very little noise today :thumbsup: .
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I would do as you have Womble and leave the lambs just a fence or hurdle away from their dams. This is how I wean at 4 months too - no noise, no stress.
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[member=2128]Womble[/member] I thought they would be much worse than that, by the description, still nasty though but I have seen worse (not in my own sheep though). How strong is the lambs suck? We had a cow with blisters on her teats and we took the calf off and discovered that its suck was so strong that it was blistering her teat, we left the calf off and bucket reared it, then the vet treated the cow and she got better. My question is could it be the fact they have 3 on them? ( or don't they?) also how strong is the lambs suck, of course it could be ORF though. Have you spoken to your vet about it at all?
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As ever - hugely useful. Thank you for sharing... Sounds like you're managing it with such cool..... Even the double showers....
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Sounds like you're managing it with such cool.....
Well, I'm certainly getting better at sheep Judo! Last night, we caught a ewe, gave her two injections, tipped her, milked and creamed her, then bottle fed it to the lambs. We couldn't have done all that last year, so we're definitely learning..... crisis by crisis! :roflanim:
Also, whilst the irony of milking sheep in the p1ssing rain just so I can bottle feed it back to their own lambs has not been lost on me, I've discovered tonight that fresh sheep's milk actually tastes really good! :D
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So, you retain your cool, AND your sense of humour... The number of things I couldn't do last year, well, last month actually.... but I have to confess to having had sense of humour failure at times...
Keep going - puts a smile on our faces.....
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[member=2128]Womble[/member] it is probably the lamb which is biting the bottle. I would say it is undershot, best keep it off and then get rid of it at the end of the year. It might be an idea to keep an eye on her offspring next year and see how they feed, it could be a genetic throwback. I had a cow once which kept producing calves with undershot jaws and yet she wasnt undershot at all, odd. I had to bucket rear the calves, but she was a house cow so it didnt really matter; I never kept any of the calves anyway, sent them for beef :yum: keep up with what youre doing and it looks as though you have caught in time. :trophy:
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Well, I've checked the lambs, and their teeth look normal to me - just very sharp! I'll watch closely for that later though. The worst affected ewe seems a bit better today, and the other one is about the same.
Today's dilemma is what to do with the lambs that are still with them? Do I take them off and try to dry the ewes out, or leave them on to self-wean? The lambs are 5 weeks old now, so they'll be fine either way. I just don't know what's best for the ewes: leave them on and risk more teat damage and infection, or take them off and risk mastitis?
My gut feel is take them off and dry out the ewes. My understanding is that this would involve penning them with just hay and water for a while, and milking them just a little to release the pressure until they dry off.
Do you have any thoughts on what I should do, and how exactly to go about it though?
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Yep, pen the ewes and only hay (or straw) and water until dry. As to the lambs being fine if weaned at 5weeks, I wouldn't be so sure on that one. Lost a ewe 5weeks post-lambing last year and although her lambs survived, they are markedly smaller than their mates... but these are Shetlands, which would wean naturally a lot later than 5 weeks..., but if these do take the bottle, can you give them one or two per day for a few more weeks? How well are these taking creep?
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Ah, sorry I didn't mean I'd wean the lambs yet, I just mean they're nice and strong. They can go in with their brothers and sisters to be bottle fed, so I have no concerns about them.
So if I put the ewes on hay and water, how often and how much should I milk them?
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The danger with leaving the lambs on is that they could cause permanent damage to the udder resulting in bitten off teats and extensive tissue damage to the bag, resulting in culling of the affected ewe/ewes. Taking them away and bottle feeding them is the best option. I would milk out the ewes 2-3 times daily, massaging their teats and bags with the cream. The milking should help alleviate any pressure. Next year watch out for it again, as someone said just before it could be genetic. All the best :thumbsup:
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If a ewe has mastitis then yes you would milk her out 2 - 3 times a day.
If you are wanting to dry her off, however, then milking her out, and milking her frequently, are the very last things you would do. Sorry wbf, but your regime would keep her in milk, possibly even increase production!
To dry her off, straw and water, just milk off enough to keep her comfortable. If the quarter is tight as a drum, milk a little off until it isn't. If it's not tight as a a drum, leave it and check it again later.
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Exactly as SiN says. After a couple of days, only once checking probably necessary unless these are really milky ewes (and the probably aren't if they cannot rear triplets).
OK, I mis-understood re weaning the lambs.
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Getting a little confused, the remaining lambs have never had a bottle so at 5wks old they could be easy or very very difficult to teach , they are at the moment suckling the ewes and all are happy so why do you want to remove them . Teat damage is not uncommon and ewes recover with just slightly lumpy teats next year
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Getting a little confused, the remaining lambs have never had a bottle so at 5wks old they could be easy or very very difficult to teach , they are at the moment suckling the ewes and all are happy so why do you want to remove them . Teat damage is not uncommon and ewes recover with just slightly lumpy teats next year
problem is that if the lambs are left on they would cause unecessary suffering to the ewe and possibly result in the ewe being culled. Better to take off the lambs than risk further damage and keep an eye on the ewe/ewes in question next year. It looks like you have caught them in time [member=2128]Womble[/member] keep up the good work and keep us updated :thumbsup:
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No ewe is going to let a lamb suckle if her teats are sore , the first signs of a problem is a lamb/lambs which are hungry
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I've got a ewe with a similar problem to Wombles so hopefully it's ok to,add to this post rather than start a new one?
Shearer came out today, and noted one ewe had a sore teat. It doesn't look like an infection but more like teeth damage from the twin lambs which are 10 weeks old. It is at the base of the teat on one side and clearly a hard lump behind about the size of a malteser. I was able to express milk ok and it looks normal. In fact it tastes normal,as I accidentally squirted it in my face! The other teat was also normal but I don't think there was much milk on either side.
Prior to the Shearer coming I had noticed her sometimes pushing the lambs off but not
every time they tried to feed. Put some antiseptic cream on the sore area and will aim to get some udder cream tomorrow. What else should I do?
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In my experience any problem with the udder or teats usually flares up the following lambing, irrespective of whether a/bs appear to work. If a ewe is a poor milker, even though she's in good condition and been correctly fed during pregnancy and post lambing, she will continue to be a poor milker and her lambs will continue to go hungry and do damage.
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Sadly I have to agree with MF - although there will always be exceptions, of course, so a small flock-keeper may decide to give a ewe another chance, and be prepared to monitor closely and take action if necessary. In a commercial flock, it's pretty much always a bad idea to retain ones that have suffered such issues.
Which said, we know we sometimes lose track of one we've marked to go (illegible tag and marked neck wool fell off, for instance) and don't always have someone giving us that problem next year - which could suggest she's recovered. Or that she's been culled anyway, selected out at pre-tupping inspection, perhaps, or was geld, or died.
Which said, if your ewe was trying to rear triplets this year, you could decide to never let her rear more than two, and always take one off at 24 hours.
But.... My ewe who got mastitis when her second set of triplets proved too much for her (and she'd never allow me to top them up) appeared to have recovered - but every year thereafter until I saw sense, I ended up taking one of her twins off, because although her udder seemed fine, she clearly wasn't producing enough milk for two.
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Hi Pharnorth, yes that does sound quite similar to what we had. We went for the nuclear option of removing and bottle feeding all lambs, keeping the ewe on restricted grazing and milking her twice a day, just enough to relieve the pressure. I'm sure a commercial farmer wouldn't have done that, but we decided it had the fewest downsides. I'm pleased to say that everything has deflated ok with no sign of mastitis, and the sores have healed (see the first pic attached). She still has a sore on that teat, but the chewed bit has healed up ok.
The other ewe's sores healed up ok. I'm still not sure if it was orf or not. One of her lambs had some small scabs on its nose, but only that lamb, which makes me think it could have been something else {any thoughts folks?}. She has ended up with really lumpy boobs though, which is not good (see second pic attached).
I do wonder if our problems this year were down to lambing too early (Easter onwards) before the grass had really come through. We had some pretty cr[member=36627]P[/member] hay this winter, but up until three weeks ago the ewes were still munching it in preference to the grass, which I think tells us we messed up. The ewe who had problems lost a serious amount of back fat over the few weeks before and after lambing, so I think she possibly ran out of reserves just when the lambs needed the maximum amount of milk. {This is only my pet theory, so feel free to tell me this is a load of rubbish!} My current thinking for next year is to sponge the ewes for lambing over the early May Bank Holiday. Still to decide though.
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Well done on getting the ewes healed, or at least en route to.
You may well find that those lumps aren't palpable by pre-tupping checks, Womble. I've seen worse disappear without trace.
Lambing onto poor grass is certainly a risk factor. Were you feeding cake?
The one thing you can predict with certainty is that grass and weather defy prediction. We've had super lambings in March, and dreadful ones later in April. Early May really ought to be okay, though, I'd agree.
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> Were you feeding cake?
Yes. Possibly not enough though.
My logic for early May is that the grass should be through by then, but we should still get the lambs away on (mostly?) grass before winter. One interesting thing for me is watching what our neighbours do. They all lamb at different times, in different ways and for different target markets / times. One nice thing about being a smallholder is that by selling direct to our customers, hopefully we'll be able to keep our prices the same regardless of timing.
I predict that next year will be beautifully sunny from 15th March onwards, then May will bring torrential rain, sleet, hurricanes and hail :-\
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Really helpful advice everyone. Thank you very much. I hear what you say regarding culling and will give it some careful thought. She is a 4 year old ewe, I bought her 2 years ago she had already had one lamb and last year had a second single. This year she had twins. I am inclined to agree with Womble's thoughts on grass. Mine lambed at Easter and it worked ok this year but the field I have post hay making this year is smaller and I have had a fair amount of hay supplementing the grass, but also some cake. It may well have been bringing them in for 48 hours for the Shearer (see separate thread) that was the final straw. Next year I will keep a larger field available for them but it has just been sprayed with weed killer so no good right now.
The sore doesn't look as bad as Womble's ewe, I'll try and get a photo later. Part of my dilemma is I go away on holiday Monday. (Post lambing pre showing lull ha ha). I have an experienced friend who will keep it all going but need the right decisions now regarding the ewe so he is not left having to make decisions or unnecessary work if I can avoid it. I think it is either treat the sore and ask him to keep a careful eye on her or take the lambs off her today but if I do that they won't be getting top ups. I can at least get the lambs on a small but lush paddock. What would you do?
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How old are the lambs, pharnorth? And how long will you be away?
I'd hesitate to take lambs off when about to go away, and leave friend making sure ewe doesn't develop mastitis, I think.
But then, if you think she might develop mastitis from the continual irritation of the existing sore... :thinking: ???
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This is all so hard! It seems that there's so much luck (and some judgment) in working out what will or would be best for any particular ewe and her lambs....
Pharnorth, if no mastitis as yet you might consider getting your ewe injected with a long acting ab which will prevent any mastitis taking hold.... so that if the teats remain sore / open to infection whilst you're away, at least mastitis would be unlikely. We have administered draxxin (from vet) to address this risk.... It has meant that we have been able to keep twins on our ewe, and we use sudocrem every other day now on her lesion. We are not hugely hopeful that the lesion will properly heal whilst the lambs are with her, but so far she is managing to feed them both...
Her twin lambs did have orf, and her less damaged teat looks a little like Womble's 'improved' photo - we are regularly putting sudocrem on that one too.
Womble - who knows if your lamb had orf... but scabby above mouth and below nose does sound orf-ish. We are still touching every available piece of wood for the fact that (so far) none of the rest of the flock have shown any signs of it, and it cleared up on the twin lambs a week or so ago...
As for predicting when the grass might grow - it seems that ours only only really started about two weeks ago - defying all our cunning plans to be able to offer relatively late lambing ewes fantastic grass... ho hum
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The lambs are 10 weeks. I am away for 18 days. It is still raw but the hard lump has gone, it all feels quite normal now behind the abrasion and she does not seem too uncomfortable with me touching today- yesterday she was clearly not happy. The picture is just before I put udder cream on about an hour ago. I will keep a close eye on her tomorrow she is quite an assertive ewe so I wouldn't be surprised if she has decided to wean the lambs herself as some milk but not lots.
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Yesterday the sore was somewhat improved. The second udder was dry or very nearly so and the damaged one had a pretty minimal amount of milk so I reckon she has self weaned so antiseptic cream, udder cream and leave them to it. Got my experienced friend checking he over the next few days. Note to self do a better job on grass management next year. I reckon it was the 48 hours in waiting for the Shearer finished it off for her as she thought she was weaning! Just ended up with a lot of seedy fleece so won't make that mistake next year either. I'll just invent soma more mistakes I guess.
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Sorry haven't been on here for a few weeks as too many jobs to do with my flock! So we've had score teats before and I washed the udder with a soft spong, warm water and liquid paraffin, worked a treat as provided comfort and helps to soften the skin when cracked, I then covered in sudocreme with a few drops of lavender oil and gently massage in everyday for a good week, result was happy ewe and really soft and mended udder ... Naturally took the lambs off and put in a pen next to the mum so no stress and plenty of cool fresh water to drink.
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It's happening again, dammit!! The same ewe, but caught early this time. She just has the start of what looks like a cut or teeth marks on the udder. She has three lambs, three weeks old and seems to have plenty of milk for them.
What to do..... what to do....? :-\
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Have you checked the lambs for misaligned jaws? A year on her milk production ability will likely have declined somewhat. Could be staph. dermatitis again - sort of thing that's around anyway and likely to kick in when the ewe's immune system is lowered post-lambing.
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if your ewe was trying to rear triplets this year, you could decide to never let her rear more than two, and always take one off at 24 hours.
But.... My ewe who got mastitis when her second set of triplets proved too much for her (and she'd never allow me to top them up) appeared to have recovered - but every year thereafter until I saw sense, I ended up taking one of her twins off, because although her udder seemed fine, she clearly wasn't producing enough milk for two.
:(
It looks like the lambs don't agree with you that she has plenty of milk for them. And/or they're very greedy, and/or she has weak teats.
Are you feeling cake?
I don't know what the grass situation up there is, but we've got nothing down here in North Cornwall :(. Mid May and we're still feeding hay :(
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Yes, I think you're probably right Sally.
Our grass isn't what I'd want it to be - plenty of sun, but no rain in weeks, so it just hasn't grown. We also couldn't put them in the best field until yesterday because the builders needed access.
I was SO hoping not to have any bottle lambs this year too :-\ .
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We only ever left triplets on two ewes one year - it ruined them, udders were never the same again. We will never leave three on again.
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Well...... the udder cream has worked wonders overnight, and they're also on better grass now and not as eager to run when they see me with a bucket (that may be the heat though). I'll keep an eye and whip a couple of the lambs off if she gets any worse. I'm also going to put some creep feed out, since that may lessen the pressure a little too.
Ideally we wouldn't have left triplets on either, but unfortunately all the ones with singles lambed first, so it wasn't to be. I think that's one of the problems with having firstly a small flock, and secondly Zwartbles!