The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: sabrina on December 17, 2015, 07:56:39 pm
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Does anyone know anything about them. Dolly has changed shape since the Spring, even more flat backed. No withers. i had her in a wide to extra wide saddle and it is slipping big time. She is being ridden twice a week just now so I need to do something quick.
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They don't really help this situation. Actually I'm not sure when they are a good thing. At a guess I'd say dolly is overweight if she's even more flat-packed
. And diet would be the answer.
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I don't think treeless are an answer to all saddle problems.
If you have a mare that changes shape a lot an adjustable tree might be the answer but I would suggest the best course of action is to have a saddle fitter.
What sort of girth have you got? String ones are good on horses that slip their saddles.
I would agree with verdifish a diet might be needed.
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I think treeless saddles are great. But you need a good one.
I've got a Trekker which I used to use on my flat backed cob, and it also fits my mule, pictured below, and my donkey.
Limpet saddle pads are supposed to stop slipping, although I've not found it to be too much of a problem.
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Another who is not a treeless lover after one gave a horse a bad back.
Slipping saddles on round animals is a perennial problem but sometimes looking at the riders balance solves the problem. We nearly all put more weight on one foot than the other even when standing on the ground. It does not take much to move the saddle sideways especially in trot.
Another cause is uneveness in the horse itself, it is rare for them to be completely symetrical and if the side of less muscle coinsides with the riders heavier side ...
If there was a simple solution someone would be rich, I have found a double girth system as good as any, usually found on western and donkey saddles but they are around on traditional english saddles.
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Lady coming on Saturday so maybe have to buy a better saddle. Dolly is over weight, been on a diet since August.
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I'm not a fan, prefer to go bareback (with a surcingle if required) or, if you need a saddle, go Western. That way the saddle will fit you rather than the horse.
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I'm not sure I understand how a western saddle should fit the rider rather than the horse.? A western saddle by its design will do more damage more quickly than any other type of saddle if it doesn't fit. Please could you explain! ]
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Another who is not a treeless lover after one gave a horse a bad back.
Slipping saddles on round animals is a perennial problem but sometimes looking at the riders balance solves the problem. We nearly all put more weight on one foot than the other even when standing on the ground. It does not take much to move the saddle sideways especially in trot.
Another cause is uneveness in the horse itself, it is rare for them to be completely symetrical and if the side of less muscle coinsides with the riders heavier side ...
If there was a simple solution someone would be rich, I have found a double girth system as good as any, usually found on western and donkey saddles but they are around on traditional english saddles.
I very much agree with this. The reason I said get a good one is that cheap ones are likely to be poorly made and badly designed. So they may look good and you think you are protecting you animal's back from undue pressure, but in fact you're not.
I started off with a conventional saddle with both my cob and my donkey but they both put on a lot of weight. As mentioned, a donkey saddle has 2 girths which solves the "no withers" problem while the saddle fitted. However when my cob burst out of his, and I then aquired a mule (also notoriously difficult to fit), I did a load of research and decided on a good treeless that fits them all.
I have found that if I seem a bit unbalanced, especially on my mule, it's more a problem with my balance (again as mentioned above). So as I don't do anything energetic with mine, and merely ride at a sedate walk along the river bank to check my stock, then I remove my feet from the stirrups and find that restores my balance.
You can get treeless saddles that you can trot or even jump in but they are very expensive new. (My leather Trekker was £250 secondhand.) However, it's very difficult to keep an even weight on a cob, or indeed any native pony, so it's worth looking into treeless, which will adapt with the animal. [/quote]
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I have Dales and Fell ponies. Having tried various treed saddles, which even after having them fitted, slipped forward, backwards, or just did not sit right, or suit us, the rider. The only ones that I was happy with were the Thorowgood, and also the Wintec with the interchangeable gullet, and an xx wide one worked best.
I then tried a Trekker treeless, and loved it so much. Ponies moved so much better, and I found it nice to ride in. My husband rides in a treeless Torsion, which he likes. I have had a saddle fitter check my ponies, and also the saddles and she said, used with the treeless saddle pad, the ones I am using are fine, although she would not say the same about all the treeless saddles.
My husband had riding lessons, where he rode in a treed saddle, which he found a bit hard. The instructor was most impressed with his seat when riding, and this is down to the position the treeless saddle puts you in.
I do have a Wintec for posh shows, but given the choice, would ride in my Trekker.....my original one was stolen along with a lot of other things, and the loss of my Trekker saddle hit me badly
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My husband had riding lessons, where he rode in a treed saddle, which he found a bit hard. The instructor was most impressed with his seat when riding, and this is down to the position the treeless saddle puts you in.
I had a treeless, which I used for a trekking cob. It also did what you say Roxy - put the rider in a good position - whether they liked it or not. Interestingly "riders" would complain it was uncomfortable because they were made to sit in a way they obviously were not used to. Whereas beginners found it comfortable because they hadn't yet slipped into a comfy zone.
How are you getting on with your problem Sabrina?
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Not great. The saddle is wide to extra wide and does seem to fit but when ridden the young lady who is doing this seems to sitting one sided and this is what the lady who came to look at the saddle thinks. I have been working with Stacey on her postition in the saddle and so far things have been better. Due to flooded paddocks we are just walking up and down our farm road so until we do more work its hard to say if things have improved. I do think I need to get one where the gullet can be changed. The other problem that we now have is Stacey managed to kick Dolly quit hard when she was getting off and this has set Dolly right back to being scared. I worked with her inside last week, giving a little jump from the mounting block to lean over her back with no problem at all but as soon as Stacey went to try this Dolly seem to panic. I kept Stacey just going up to her then standing on the block while giving her lots of attention and after a bit she did stand but we have not got back on until I am sure Dolly will settle. Stacey is more than happy to go at the pace I want and has fallen in love with Dolly. Its a shame this has happen, during the summer my granddaughter could jump on and off her with no fuss at all. Her past life seems to haunt her but I will not give up and as long as Stacey is happy working with her we will keep trying. I have no plans to sell her as I feel she would freak being moved again so if it turns out she can't be ridden for whatever reason then she will just be a pet.
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Can you get the rider to work on another pony bare-back? That will dramatically improve her balance in a very short space of time as, if she is lop-sided, she'll keep slipping off. It doesn't sound like Dolly is the right pony to do that with, but if she could practice on another pony, then in a short space of time she may be able to make the transition to Dolly quickly and easily to let her regain confidence. If not, then riding without stirrups may help or adjust her stirrups so that her "long" leg is in a "shorter" stirrup to try to push her back level.
That's really interesting, as I do have one leg longer than the other, but never thought of that being why I'm better balanced without using stirrups.
However, my longer leg is my right one, and when using stirrups I tend to slip towards the left, which would make sense as my longer leg is pushing me over.
But I don't understand how shortening the right stirrup would prevent this. Surely that would have the effect of increasing the pushing effect from the right and cause me to slip over even more to the left?
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Shortening the stirrup on one side will likely just cause her to collapse her pelvis on that side and exacerbate the problem. You need to borrow a big gym ball and get her to do some strengthening exercises on it as that will show her where she is placing her weight as the ball will move around under her. There are some really good descriptions in Mary Wanless' book 'Ride with your mind' and there is always the option of getting Pauline Kidd over to work with the rider as she is a miracle worker for rider posture - she is a Pilates teacher who only works with riders and she specialises on working with riders and horses together.
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Dolly will be 6 years old this Spring. As for her story I don't know. I was told she was bought as a foal and just more or less left in the field with a few other ponies. She did not catch when I bought her, kicked and bit me. Did not pick up her feet was terrible in the stable. Did not like you in her space. Has lost a bit of her bottom eye lid but vet checked her when she did her teeth and her eye is fine. Her old owner told me she got her like that. It was clear they were scared off her. I did think of breaking her to harness but have now decided against this as she gets so worried about everything. It has taken me over a year to win her round, over the summer she was being ridden at walk and trot by my granddaughter but she is now into boys and has no time for the ponies. I am firm with Dolly if I think she is just playing up but the times she is upset I give her space. Trying to give her a cuddle and tell her life is OK does not work but grooming and a quite chat works wonders. She trust me now.
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It sounds like you have achieved a lot and it is good you have a willing rider.
You have to be sure whether your rider is crooked or Dolly is making her crooked because she is crooked?
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Stacey who is 16 is very keen but I made it clear from the start that Dolly was an on going project. She is more than willing to go at the pace I decide so that it is a good thing. She has been helping me with the Shetlands as I hope to get back to a few shows this year. Stacey has a gentle way with her and even the cat adores her. Her very first day with me the cat got into her bag and pinched her lunch. I don't think Dolly is dangerous, she does not rear or buck but Stacey has been told by me not to try and do anything with her unless I am there. Going by what her father has told me she is loving being here and is learning so much. I enjoy the days she is with me so it works for both of us.
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A person on a horse sits square by equally sitting on their seat bones. They should do that at all times despite what their legs or arms are doing. Often a person who slips needs correcting at their shoulder but are often told to move their weight across on the saddle instead. Many people don't ride with equal stirrups but in fact sit squarely on their seat bones. A lot of people will be surprised if they take a look at their stirrup leathers that the holes on older leathers are probably not level. Especially if they never swap sides when cleaning them as the left one will stretch with mounting. In fact, where ever possible it is better for your horse and it's tack if you mount from a block.
I have taught many disabled riders but actually this goes for all riders, watch how someone walks and it will tell you a lot about how they will sit on the horse. A lot of disabled people have no use of their arms or legs and in some cases have limbs missing but often they can achieve balance because they can sit equally on both seat bones.
Many people fix their ankles in an exaggerated heels down to compensate for not having a good seat and you should be able to ride rising trot without stirrups because the movement should come from the pelvis not off your feet.
A rider balances by making counter movements to the movement through the horses back so yes take away your stirrups and you will have to relax and use your seat bones or fall off.
You seem to have a great team going here Sabrina but you need to decide who or what is causing Stacey and the saddle to slip. If it is Stacey and she continues to ride like that Dolly is going to get a sore back. And if Dolly already has a sore back it is only going to get worse. It maybe she needs more work on one side than the other and as she gets fitter the saddle won't slip. Can you see Stacey ride something else?
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Going to film her if the paddocks ever dry up !
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Good idea, it does sound like she may be collapsing slightly over the hip to one side and weighting one seatbone more than the other.
Re: treeless, I have a Heather Moffett FlexEE which has a flexible leather tree, and is completely adjustable. I love it and, more importantly, so does the pony, who moves beautifully in it. Saving up for a second-hand Vogue now!
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I use an exercise racing saddle and feel really safe on it. Feels like bareback and my flat back fell used to spin on a sixpence and I never budged. Used a treeless and he did same, saddle slipped and I hit the deck.