The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: Polyanya on November 24, 2015, 10:51:51 am
-
I've had my goats for over a month now and still think they're amazing creatures - just a quick question about concentrate quantities for Goldens - I've been giving them what the breeder showed me which is basically a couple of handfuls each of sheep crunch, do I increase the amount as they get older and bigger? They have ad lib hay and access to grazing if they want to.
-
I am sure Anke will advise further but sounds like you are on the right track - just watch sheep feed doesn't have copper in it so a red rockie mineral lick out of the way of any sheep would be advisable too
-
Right now, unless they are milking and are therefore on a proper milker's ration, only very small quantities of concentrates are required. Feel their spine (as would with sheep) and there are guidance drawings on condition scoring goats on the web too. You want to be able to feel the transverses, but not too sharply - get a copy of David Mackenzie's Goat Husbandry (5th edition) via www.abebooks.co.uk (http://www.abebooks.co.uk). It is easy to get GG's going fat - much easier than BT's for example.... Also a good handful of horse/pony carrots (chopped into thin sticks rather than slices), or cabbages or bananas, apple slices (not too many - quite acidic) are welcome. Mine do not get concentrate at this time of year, just some soaked sugar beet shreds with a dusting of rolled oats. Concentrate will be re-introduced 6 - 8 weeks prior to kidding/milking. Growing kids will still get a good handful of baby calf mix or dairy nuts until the end of their second summer ((just before mating) as they are still growing. Then diet!
Once they are in milk you may want to try feeding them on dairy cattle/calf feed (either mix or nuts) if you can get it up your way, if not sheep mix is fine. You will need a Red Rockie lick in any case, they will ignore it for most of the year, but mine do lick it when they are in kid and when milking first. Goats do need higher copper than sheep do, and the RED Rockies (not the yellow ones!) will provide that. Sheep should NOT have access to the red rockies though, same goes for cattle feed. If you have sheep and goats together it is safer to stick to sheep mix. But as there are cattle on Shetland you should also be able to buy cattle/calf feed.
Hope this helps...
-
This is always an area of interest what would a milking goat feed be if one had say 16% dairy nut some sugar beet and haylage or would hay or barley straw be better often talk about feed at collage but never for goats
many thanks the student
-
Mine at the moment get a handful of soaked sugar beet or chopped carrots alternatively am & pm. The in kid ones that are dried off as Anke's get a dusting of oats or bruised barley. The one I have running through gets some 18% ewe nuts as does the remaining female kid. They have ad lib hay water and access to yellow and red rockies also tithebarn pre calver cattle minerals. The 6 weeks before kidding I gradually increase ewe nuts and they get some molassses and week before and week after kidding no ewe nuts but oats /barley instead then gradually increase ewe nuts (helps prevent milk fever). Chopped carrots and whole neeps till the grass grows.
I follow the British Goat Society guide (they sell a book on feeding goats on their website) 500g for maintenance and 200g per kilo of milk. (also a maximum or milkers of 200g dry weight of beet) I find mine go off cattle feed quickly although some keepers do well with them using dairy cow nuts (not readily available where I am you would have to order it specially) and ewe nuts most economical and palatable and via milk recording it's best for quantity and quality of milk. You can use 16% but depends on quality of forage. I usually use 18% and can reduce by adding oats/ barley. Kids need feeding well while they are still growing. Males get a mix of 16% lamb finisher (do not give ewe feeds to males)and some barley small amount of beet / chopped carrots. Some straw can be given for variety I use it more in the summer to help balance lush spring grass.
-
Also student I have found using a product not designed for milk results in poorer yield and quality of milk for example 16 % lamb finisher / lamb /calf creep or general goat mix. Dairy nuts or ewe nuts better either 16 or 18%. goat mix is good but is aimed for general goats and not always suitable for some highly productive goats. HAY essential all year round, Straw for variety or overweight goats. Straw good in summer when grass and greenery is at it's highest nutrition and can replace hay then, Keeps good rumen health as with branches when available. Haylage usually has better nutrition but is a higher risk of listeria.
-
Thankyou Talana a lot of useful info have ordered the books from the goat society site as like all students have many questions are you a large herd of milkers as you said about milk recording I guess a larger herd would or could feed different to a small or someone with a few goats for home use
Thank you so much for the help
-
My milkers get a mix of soaked shreds, oats and dairy nuts (18%), same for growing kids and goatlings til end of showing season. Mine do like I'Ansons dairy nuts, but turn their noses up at other brands fairly quickly. If they do go off I replace with baby calf mix (18% too) and gradually re-introduce the dairy nuts by mixing them in (dairy nuts are 50% cheaper). Usually works. They also have hay all year round, branches/leaves/greenery when available and grazing from March/April til September. In winter carrots and cabbages(non-milkers only).
My adult males only get some shreds and oats, won't eat mix/d-nuts....
I don't really weigh my feed, just go by the feel on their ribs. 3 feeds per day. GG's more careful as they tend to get fat, but struggle to get my BT's to put on some cover....
-
Thank you all for putting the information on here for us all to use in one way or another in sure Polyanya who started this has found it all great and useful
Many thanks
-
Thanks for all the input, can I just say mine are all only 7 months old. Anke you mentioned feeding concentrate until their second summer and then diet I think you said. Its just that I think the boy is on a growth spurt and has shot up but actually looks thinner than the girls and I can definitely feel the spine and ribs. I make sure they have access to willow branches a couple of times a week, I also give them carrots, apples, parsley, borccoli stems (maybe one between all three per day) and off course I give them a dried apricot each per day.
They are very keen to go out and graze and they don't share with the sheep at all, oh and they already have a red rockie in their byre.
Thanks for the book advice I shall check that out.
Looking forward to rereading all this info when my girls are in kid and later. :sunshine:
-
Student I have a small pure toggenburg herd at the moment 6 dry milkers 1 milking 1 goatling in kid 1 female kid and 2 entire males and a wether. I grew up on a farm and my husband is also a farmer. Sometimes I buy what is most suitable for my goats from my local country store and other times a pinch stuff from my husbands feed shed but it depends on what he has as some stuff isn't suitable or the goats just don't like it. Goat keepers can milk record through goat clubs. You weigh the milk once a month take a sample in pots provided, post to your milk recording secretary who gathers everyones and sends to NMR, and processes info back. Goats can receive awards onto their pedigree (non pedigree can be registered in the IR SR register) You get 3 checks a year from say a willing neighbour to give results credibility for the awards.
Polyana glad you enjoying your goats what your doing is fine Kids often go through a growth spurt and seem thinner but they'll put it back on.
With mine I don't go by their back as they put fat on their flank first then brisket area before they put it on their back also goats store more fat internally than sheep. If their flanks behind elbow is quite fat i start to control feeding as when the brisket starts getting fatty they are too fat. My goatling is on a diet! her sides wobble with fat. You never stop learning with goats.
Goats are individuals as are goat keepers and their holdings, what works for some people may not always work for others.
-
We had a talk at huntly regarding feeding the man speaking I think works for animal feed company and does the rations for st helens commercial goat farm. He lived in usa with his own herd and worked on commercial herds and has brought wide experience to his commercial rations. It was a certainly an eye opener how different, commercial herds are fed. We were surprised that the average yield was not that high compared to our own goats.
Anke mine too turn up their nose's at different brands. Once at a show speaking to a feed company and getting a free cup of tea I did stop myself in time from asking does that nuts taste the same as the other, i think i re phrased it as same ingredients, well in the end it did taste different goats didn't like it.
-
Having worked for 10 years at St Helens I think that I can explain why the average yields are not as high as in small backyard goats.
To start with the goats are kidding down at 12/14 months of age. They are not expected to milk more than 700kg in that lactation as they are still growing. There are 5-600 of these each year a large proportion of a 4000 milking herd.
Also there is a lot of unseasonal breeding taking place to keep a steady flow of milk all year round. Goats kidding in October are not going to give as much in their lactation as goats kidding in March. These goats are unlikely to give more than 1200kg.
There are star performers within the herd but often they are a nuisance as the goats which give 3000kg, and yes there are quite a few, need special handling after kidding as once round the parlour is not long enough to milk out so they have to be shed out and sent round again. If the milker is otherwise occupied as they exit they do not get milked out making them worse at the next milking.
-
WOW I didn't know that they had their first baby at 12 months old thought would have been older like cows and 4000 goats must seem like a sea bet its noisy and breeding time
-
Well that's the commercial goat dairying vs the small-scale, often pedigree breeder. It is the same in commercial sheep flocks, a good proportion of the ewe lambs are sent to the tup in their first autumn, to get a single out of them. With careful management their live time output is the same or often better than for ewes lambed only in their spring.
-
It must be really difficult to manage all those goats need a good team of amazing people, and rightly so high yielders need high maintenance. That's a lot of replacements. Buttermilk Do they run them through as a lot of these high yielders could go without kidding every year. Student smaller goat keepers don't normally plan kidded kids but allow them to grow and have first kidding at 2. but commercially you want them producing earlier. We don't calve home bred calves til 2.5 /3 years.2 years too young as they need extra care and struggle. I found kidding below 15 months old they never do well. Lambing ewe lambs we sometimes do but often they are more work and cost. We find it is better commercially to have gimmers. Ewe lambs only can rear a single.
Student and anyone interested or keeping goats, you might be interested in goat nutrition sites info: http://gnltd.co.uk/vitamins-minerals-for-goats (http://gnltd.co.uk/vitamins-minerals-for-goats)
-
Thanks Talana - I shall have to rush out and see if my Gerald has a wobble :excited: Interesting about the fat collecting more internally than as a layer under the skin.
-
Interesting about the fat collecting more internally than as a layer under the skin.
YEs that's a goat specific issue - if your goats feel fat on the outside.... there is quite a bit more on the inside. I have seen it on the carcasses of the male kids we normally slaughter for our own consumption. BUT it does make very nice soap (the fat that is).
Re.: feeding kids - yes you are right until kids are 14 to 16 months old a good concentrate ration is essential.
-
Nothing gets run through as it fouls the management plans. Not the parlour I worked in but it gives you an idea of scale
https://www.facebook.com/AgriculturalMachineryTechnologies/videos/270128903178268/ (https://www.facebook.com/AgriculturalMachineryTechnologies/videos/270128903178268/)
-
just wondering why people are using sheep mix or cattle mix... etc.. when you can buy 'goat mix' . is that not easier?
-
Goat mix is for general goats for all breeds, and may not have enough nutrition at certain times such as when milking, plus it's twice the price. Dodson & Horrell is a favourite with my goats but it's not enough when milking particularly when spring does't come til June! I occasionally use it more as a treat.There is no way mine would eat the required amount as it's not as concentrated, lower protein. Between them they would eat a bag a day, whiles a bag of ewe nuts last almost a fortnight. Mine refuse to eat the other makes of goat mix or pick the favourite bits out. Some people do feed it when milking but give lots of extras aswell. Sheep cattle mix is divided into different types for pregnacy and lactation, growing youngstock, males.
-
Thank you for a look into St helens looking at their web site the goats are milked three times a day is that for all or just the high milkers Just wondering why a goat that kids in October would give less milk than any other as the goats are housed 24 7 they don't know what season it is housed goats would i thought get the same food all year round as would housed all year calving cows What do St helens goats eat Or from what i have read what are they given they come across as very fussy like a change type
-
The three times a day milking is for the first part of the lactation of all the goats.
Even with artificial lighting the goats brain still knows the time of year and while it can be fooled to a degree it still affects things. Some fail to breed out of season because of this.
The feeding system is ad lib forage both hay and straw with out of parlour feeders which are a like a rotary parlour. Different rations are given, all in nut form, according to yield/stage of lactation. To prevent goats hopping off and going straight back on the exit is at one side of the building and the goats have to go the full length and back down the other side to get back on again, these are large buildings capable of easily housing 400 goats.
Despite being housed all their lives the goats are content and settled always being with the goats they were raised with.
Angus often takes in college students for work experience and kidding goats is a lot like lambing... A lot of the students are vet students.
-
Not quite the same as sitting quietly by your goat's side and gently squeezing the milk into a bucket, is it?
Goat mix is for general goats for all breeds, and may not have enough nutrition at certain times such as when milking, plus it's twice the price. Dodson & Horrell is a favourite with my goats but it's not enough when milking particularly when spring does't come til June! I occasionally use it more as a treat.There is no way mine would eat the required amount as it's not as concentrated, lower protein. Between them they would eat a bag a day, whiles a bag of ewe nuts last almost a fortnight. Mine refuse to eat the other makes of goat mix or pick the favourite bits out. Some people do feed it when milking but give lots of extras aswell. Sheep cattle mix is divided into different types for pregnacy and lactation, growing youngstock, males.
I'm feeding Dodson and Horrell which my girls enjoy but that's because it's the only one I can get locally. I did have them on Allen and Page Dairy Goat which they also happily ate but my supplier was bought out and the new owners refused to keep ordering it in, despite the fact that they sell Allen and Page chicken feeds.
Any suggestions for upping their protein intake? They do have Graze on twice a day as well - three large scoops between the two of them and ad lib hay, as well as any veggies I can get hold of. Minerals come from Caprivite and garlic granules.
-
Suggestions for extras -what you already are giving Mad Goatwoman of Madeley - also high quality forage, extra veg, alfalfa dried grass products,some kale, whole neeps(swedes) my goats love them and do milk well with them, flaked peas have heard some people add "spoonful" linseed / veg oil, linseed flakes. some add extra soya. Then theres the goat that turns up her nose " I don't like that". You have to be careful their overall concentrate ration not over 18 % protein as risk of laminitis. Us smaller goatkeepers pic and mix what's available that suits our goats best. What works for one doesn't necessary work for others. I milk record and through the winter milkers running through have a more consistent diet of hay and I can try different things to see if it makes a difference to yield and butterfats (although there's a lot of other variables that affect that.) I have found it does, even with the same product, different manufacturers! My husband asked me to try them with molasses if that would help yield as he gets for sheep in lamb -prevents twin lamb, but thought he could get more after lambed while waiting on grass to grow- no difference with the goats. Got neeps instead.
-
I am feeding my young goats sheep crunch (Ewe and Lamb mix) which has small pelleted grains plus things like flaked maize and peas and smells distinctly of apples, I love it and so do the goats. Because I live in Shetland and all that that entails with bad winter weather, cancelled ferries, shipping charges etc, when I can get it, a proprietary goat feed costs around £17 a bag and because there are so few goats kept here the supply is a bit hit and miss. However the sheep crunch (which looks just like Alpen :D) with peas) is readily available and costs much less and I'd rather avoid getting the goats used to one type of feed only to have to switch to a completely different one when I couldn't find any.
I've been feeling behind the elbows and definitely cannot find any fat but they feel like my dogs ribs - sort of palpable but with a good layer of skin and my dogs are neither skinny or overweight. But I would like to know if I need to increase the hard feed with each month they grow? Like I said before they get a couple of handfuls each per day and are 7 months old - should I increase that next Jan? Appreciate any advice - thanks.
-
I have noticed that goat keepers often feed ewe nuts or lamb nuts to goats How dose that effect the copper thing with goats needing more than sheep or is that put right with the red rockie
-
Yes student red rockie should balance but depends on your holding / forage ,mine have free access to red rockies and tithebarn cattle minerals feeding ewe feed. With mine the powder tithebarn gives them a extra quick to eat boost at certain times such as kidding, although the red / yellow rockies do for most of the time. It does depend on your forage / holding at my last place despite red rockies & D&H goat mix and capravite were deficient I had to drench once a month with a copper mineral drench as well due to high levels of molydium ? in grazing /hay- move four miles and the rockies and tithebarn minerals adequate. mine refuse to eat cattle feed for any length of time but other keepers get on well with cattle feed or goat mix.
You have to find what works best for your goats on your holding.
-
Thank you Talana How do you know if a goat is copper deficient I have just read a bit by Loosemore BVS copper in sheep thats scary There is a lot about cattle and sheep never goats The goat is my chosen animal for end of term paper Not sure which term i will know about goats
-
student, in extreme deficiency during pregnancy you can get swayback in kids, some people have said a slight baldness on tip of tail. With mine it was dullness of the coat lighter colour a bit scruffy ,hair colour round eyes, which since mine are toggs look scruffy anyway and as the year progresses the coat fades in sunlight, but on the suggestion of a coppper cobalt drench from an experienced goat keeper the results were obvious when my toggs cast winter coat they were a deeper brown with extra gloss.
-
polyana I think what you are doing is fine, should't need extra but just carry on monitoring them. They are still growing. Hope you are enjoying them, goats are great characters
-
When I had a small milking herd, 60 Max, they were fed D&H sheep nuts with warm soaked sugar beet , ad lid meadow hay and grazed outside in the summer. They were milked by machine and the highest yeald I had was 1900 . When available they had extras such as carrots, peahulm and fruit and veg.
I bred kids and they always grew well and milked as expected according to parentage , breed etc.
I have also always bred ewe lambs in their first winter having experienced them getting rather large by their second winter. They need close monitoring but also do well. :innocent:
-
Polyanya - your quantities sound fine to me, other things that they usually like are rolled oats and (soaked) sugar beet shreds. When milking you may find that 18% protein dairy cattle rations are good and available locally to you too (here dairy nuts are cheaper than ewe&lamb mix, but not the calf mixes).
The reason I keep mine of a variety of things is that if I run out and cannot get supplies in quickly they still have another option they like.
I would keep them on a good ration (but not increase it by age/month) until next summer, then much less when they are in kid.
-
Thank you Anke and Talana - good to know that. They all seem very happy and look v. healthy. I'll remember about cow feed when they've kidded - seems such a long time away mind.
-
Thank you all for your time still trying to sort out a goat feed ration for end of term paper I phoned BOCM Pauls as Goat Society said But even more confusion now They said not to feed Dairy or cattle feed to goats as goats and copper don't go together advised feed ewe or lamb nut only or goat mix Only 2 of the 4 students doing goats now one has gone to quickly do fish farming the other poultry will we make it to next wends handing
-
Thank you all for your time still trying to sort out a goat feed ration for end of term paper I phoned BOCM Pauls as Goat Society said But even more confusion now They said not to feed Dairy or cattle feed to goats as goats and copper don't go together advised feed ewe or lamb nut only or goat mix Only 2 of the 4 students doing goats now one has gone to quickly do fish farming the other poultry will we make it to next wends handing
Cattle feed is cheaper, so of course they want to sell you goat mix...
-
student speak to bruce dolby at goat nutrition. some commercial herds get him to design ration(dairy and meat and fibre).
At the local shows I always ask the reps of the various feed company's while we receive our free refreshments they all look blank and come away with all sorts of answers. Speak to companys that supply commercial dairy farms may help. Try different companys perhalps Davidsons, or commercial farm such as st helens direct
Nick canning at East coast viners has been reading up on goats and is quite enthusiastic although i wouldn't agree completely with his ration suggested for my goats but others do. Good luck with your studies.
-
They knew i didn't want to buy any it was a student question The problem is cattle feed against ewe sheep feed
and this copper thing which my father saw years ago in cattle it looked like they had grey glasses he said
-
student your father's right enough about that.
-
student contact me via message i think i can help
-
Thank you all for your time still trying to sort out a goat feed ration for end of term paper I phoned BOCM Pauls as Goat Society said But even more confusion now They said not iry or cattle feed to goats as goats and copper don't go together advised feed ewe or lamb nut only or goat mix
There are posts on here going back years of goats v cows re copper, too many suppliers still think of that goats are sheep minus wool plus milk. In many respects they could be classed as mini cows.
Heard or read somewhere that they are more akin to deer, which I've often thought myself.
Good luck with the course