The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Timothy5 on November 06, 2015, 11:20:51 pm
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Does anybody on here truly understand the genetics of breeding coloured sheep, and is prepared to answer a few questions for me, PLEASE.
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What are your questions?
Then someone may be able to answer them specifically.
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If it is specific breed colour genetics you actually may be better off talking to the relevant breed society.
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O.K., fair comments. Perhaps I should explain a little more. I am a 'hobby' breeder, being retired I can indulge my hobby.
My aim is to produce a sort of English version of the Barbados Blackbelly sheep, (you can't get them in the UK for love nor money).
I started with a flock of Soays, to which I put a Wiltshire Horn ram. The purpose was to reinforce the hair sheep, (no shear) character, and also to improve confirmation. Not surprisingly, all the lambs were white. The best ram was selected from these and put with another small flock of Soays. I'm thinking it is possible I might get approx 50% coloured lambs from this as they will be 3/4 Soay.
I intend to put these coloured offspring ewes with a Badgerfaced Torddu ram. My understanding is that neither the Badgerfaced gene, nor the Mouflon gene exhibits dominance over the other, so I may get some lambs with black bellies, tan backs, and badger faces.
All this is very much guesswork, and I was hoping to get some expert guidance. The various breed societies show little interest in my breeding as I am not keeping them pure bred, and of course would not be registering them.
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I put my Badger Face to a Southdown for commercial type lambs every other year and the lambs occasionally have woolly sideburns and sometimes a light tan mottling on the face. They exhibit no BF markings whatsoever.
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I found this if you're interested?
http://www.lonestarbarbadosblackbelly.com/ (http://www.lonestarbarbadosblackbelly.com/) Question is though are you able to import from the US of A?
http://www.provensheddingsheep.co.uk/Default (http://www.provensheddingsheep.co.uk/Default)
This guy may have some. Just wondering..... is this the same Tim W which is on this forum?
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Try the Shetland Sheep Society facebook page. There are many SSS members who are positively obsessed with colour genetics. For example, some members have bred up to increase the numbers of gulmoget sheep in the national flock, which were very rare but now there are many.
I think the genetics you are dealing with are far more complex than you imagine, and your research will occupy you for many happy years. There are plenty of scientific research papers on the subject, if you want to immerse yourself in it.
I have seen BBB sheep in their home territory, and I can't help but think that the real thing would struggle here with the weather. So given what you hope to achieve, I like the idea of using British sheep to create your own version of the BBB - that's what it's all about.
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An interesting experiment, one thing of note those with a hair or hairier coat should show pattern development more clearly as hair holds colour better over wool fibre.
Be prepared for some spotties too :-)
Pics please when the lambs are born
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Thanks all, that is very helpful. Marches Farmer, I suspect the reason you have those lambs is because white is dominant over all colours, same reason why my F1 lambs were white.
I know I am attempting something rather difficult, and do know a little about genetics, but that is all part of the challenge. I know that colour combination is possible, because the BBB exists. I am also told that the Badgerfaced sheep occasionally throw a lamb with a tan back, but because they do not conform to breed standards, they are usually culled.
I shall study the links provided with great interest, and would also welcome any further comments.
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To answer 'Waterbuffalofarmer', I think it is possible to import BBB semen only, doubtless at great expense, and the risk of indifferent results. I am making use of UK breeds, because they are readily available, and because they are known to be hardy in our climate.
No, I am not Tim White, he is in Wiltshire, opposite side of the country from me, and his sheep are predominately white.
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Random things I know about colour in sheep include:
Jacob colour seems to have more dominance than most; first cross Jacob x Texels are not predominantly white, in fact many of the lambs will be all black.
Blue Texels have two recessive genes, as I understand it. The gene exists in the general Texel population, so crossing 'regular' with Blue can result in some coloured offspring in the F1 generation.
Shetland colour genetics is extremely complex but fairly well documented, and there are a wealth of colours, patterns and markings. Similarly Icelandics. Whether any of the behaviours of genes in these breeds is applicable to other breeds, I do not know, but I have been told that left alone, most of these sheep would tend to all moorit (brown), hence the prevalence of brown native breeds such as Manx and Soay.
I have many questions, but for now, I'll ask this one. Why does it matter what colour your sheep are, if they are to shed their hair and not produce a wool crop ???
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Why do I want to produce these sheep ? Because I think I can, because it is an interesting hobby, because we can always learn something new.
No, I have no interest in seeking the approbation of others, that is not a consideration.
I chose hair sheep because dipping and shearing is time consuming, expensive, and barely economically viable.
Having said that, the meat is excellent, not too much fat, very good on flavour, and the animals are very hardy.
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There are BBB sheep in the UK, I have had some which I used in a breeding program
I have also seen them in Germany and Netherlands but importing may be difficult due to poor scrapie genotypes
They are capable of surviving here (they did ok on my system ---outside all year, no feed other than grass etc) and have pros and cons like any type of sheep.
I know of 1 man who has a flock now , not too far from me ---
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That is very interesting news Tim W, obviously for me the UK stock is of most interest, provided I don't need a 2nd mortgage to buy a ram, also taking into consideration transport costs. I have seen a few people are searching for BBB, but all seem to have drawn a blank.
You hint at certain breed problems - care to elucidate ?
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BBB in my limited experience
Pros---hair sheep, excellent lamb vigour, early sexual maturity , breed all year round even with lambs at foot (more so than Dorsets), large litters
Cons---large litters, feet get over grown quickly, very small carcass size, very poor conformation
If you can get an 'O' grade carcass you will be very pleased---'P's grades are more usual
Don't believe the worm resistance claims---I have measured individual FEC and have accurate EBVs for worm resistance . Just like all breeds some BBB have good FEC and some are poor
These observations come from starting with a small pure flock and a larger crossbred recorded population over a few years.
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Thanks Tim W for all your help and advice, I shall wait to hear from your friend.
I did hear that there was a flock in North Essex, but I cannot find any details or contact for them.
I always tend to view claims that sound too good to be true with suspicion, perhaps it depends more
upon strain than breed in respect of disease and parasite resistance.
Aside from the bad points, they do seem ideal for me, particularly if I can get an improvement in
conformation. I am very pleased with my Wiltshire / Soays crosses in that respect.
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Just wonder if a white dorper cross might breed a truer shaped Bbb than the Wiltshire horn would
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Just wonder if a white dorper cross might breed a truer shaped Bbb than the Wiltshire horn would
Having tried it I think the Wilts is a better bet
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My thinking is that by using my cross bred ewes with a BBB ram, I can avoid such problems as unseasonal breeding, however keen the ram may be, the ewes come into season when it suits them.
Similarly, this should also serve to reduce litter numbers to a manageable level.
Breeding for conformation is something I will have to watch closely, being prepared to cull rigorously anything that fails to meet my standards.
Feet would be a matter of routine, but I will pay special attention to this.
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My thinking is that by using my cross bred ewes with a BBB ram, I can avoid such problems as unseasonal breeding, however keen the ram may be, the ewes come into season when it suits them.
This only works for two years. Once you have retained ewe lambs coming into the flock, the unseasonal breeding is a female trait too. (Ask me how I know - we used Charollais tups for four or five years, keeping the best ewe lambs on, and now have ewes that come a-tupping a good couple of months earlier than our flock used to. ;))
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Thanks, Sally, Point taken and duly noted.
I have little doubt that there are many more things that will come to light in time,
but I won't discover them unless I give it my best effort. Nothing teaches quite like
experience.
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Thanks, Sally, Point taken and duly noted.
I have little doubt that there are many more things that will come to light in time,
but I won't discover them unless I give it my best effort. Nothing teaches quite like
experience.
Absolutely - even if you do something one of us has already done, you'll get different outcomes because they're not the exact same sheep on the exact same ground fed the exact same way in the exact same conditions.
What is it they say? Most of us learn from our own mistakes, a wise man learns from others' mistakes, a fool doesn't learn from his own. Something like that, anyway.
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That is precisely the reason why I started this thread.
At the time I did not know that Tim W was on here, but I had already heard about the work he has been involved in, and the production of the Exlana sheep breed.
That's what is so good about this group, we can dip into a very large pool of knowledge and experience.
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As far as coloured genetics are concerned the Coloured Ryeland Flock Book have done a lot of detailed research with Cardiff (or it may have been Swansea) university on this subject (since the colured gene is recessive in Ryelands and two whites can throw a coloured lamb).
Equally the Rare Breed Society has a vested interest in a lot of this due to their work in promoting genetic diversity and managing very limited gene pools (think Castlemilk Moorits for example).
I am also pretty certain that in most pedigree breeds you will find some very interesting genetics with what I term the "super sires" appearing time and time again in the blood lines so that even when the breed is not especially endangered, the actual genetic diversity is nowhere near as wide as you might imagine. Maintaining a set of breed characteristics takes a lot of work and has largely been done in the past by "experience" rather than science. Lots of "line breeding" to fix the characteristics you want (line breeding is the name when it works, "in breeding" is the description when it doesn't!!!)
Get prepared for some pretty heavyweight genetics stuff however.
Steve