The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 24, 2015, 01:33:33 pm

Title: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 24, 2015, 01:33:33 pm
Hi,


   I bought in 3 silver laced Wyandotte bantams this week which are currently in quarantine. The largest of the 3 started looking hunched the day after and I assumed that the stress of the journey had brought whatever bugs she was carrying to the surface. I started dosing her with antibiotic but a day later I noteced that when she pecked for food in a dish with the others she stopped about an inch or two short of her target. I decided to bring her indoors as she was getting weaker and the missjudged pecking suggested something to do with her eyesight.


Once inside and dosed with liquids and critical care formula she started to perk up so I decided to tempt her with a little dish of chick crumb, mixed corn and tuna. She was keen to eat so I have been pariently holding the dish infront of her and judging when she is about to peck so that I could move the food closer at the same time.


If I move the dish too close she pulls her head back so I have found an optimum position where she can make contact and get a gulp full of tuna. I hoped that if I could encourage her to reach a bit further than she think she needs to with the reward of food she may be able to adjust to her visual impairment.


In between beakfulls of tuna and corn she stops and closes her eyes and I have noticed that her upper beak is a little hooked like a bird of prey and the bottom one may be similar as they seem a little miss aligned. I no longer think she needs antibiotic but given her it just in case. I have kept her topped up with critical care and water (almost to the point of over hydrating her) Yet she has just got up and had lots to drink from her water dish. She has no problem drinking and can clearly see what she is doing.


If I cant get her to make contact with her food she will die and I'm wondering if filing her beak into shape is the answer.


I have only ever had one other Wyandotte bantam which also had a sight / pecking problem you will find her story here
 http://www.thechickenwhisperer.co.uk/2014/06/dottys-decline.html (http://www.thechickenwhisperer.co.uk/2014/06/dottys-decline.html)


Any ideas if this is a regular issue with Wyandottes?
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Marches Farmer on October 24, 2015, 07:47:14 pm
I generally take the view that if something's wrong on the outside there's often something wrong on the inside too.   Have you spoken to the seller about this?   I got 12 hatching eggs of SLW large fowl from a top breeder this year and only seven hatched, three had irreversibly splayed legs and I culled them and the remaining four feathered up so slowly they looked like week old chicks at 7 weeks.   I think many SLWs have been bred for lacing for so long many other traits, like robust health, have fallen by the wayside.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Stereo on October 24, 2015, 08:11:38 pm
Agree with Marches.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 24, 2015, 08:38:35 pm
Thanks guys thats my fear too. As things stand if she cant learn to rejudge the distance between where the food actually is and where she judges it to be she will starve to death and I'm not having that so tomorrow will probably be dispatch day.


Such a shame as she is a lovely natured and beautifully marked hen who clearly wants to eat. It's heart breaking to try and get her to make contact with the food.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: chrismahon on October 25, 2015, 05:55:56 am
Presume they are wormed and you have checked for lice and Northern Fowl Mite. Poor eyesight can be a side effect of poor condition anyway and is not necessarily permanent. The slight beak misalignment is not why she isn't eating so best left alone. I would be feeding her growers pellets mashed and rolled into balls. Sometimes they will eat on their own and sometimes they have to be fed with water as well, but this can often turn round a sickie very quickly.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 25, 2015, 06:33:12 am
Oh Chris my wise Chicken Whispering friend,


  thank you so much! Your little ray of hope has brought a lump to my throat. Yes she came with lots of red mites on her despite the place she came from looking immaculate. I smothered her in Diatom as soon as I spotted them crawling onto her face to feed in clusters and wondered if anemia could cause this eyesight issue. Until your reply I hadnt managed to find any evidence of it. I dusted the other two birds that she came in with and gave them all a drop of ivermectin on the back of their necks. That should kill anything in contact and she is in a plastic indoor cage in the greenhouse so there is really no place for them to hide.


I can't tell you how much I want to save her. I have kept chickens for years and always find dispatching a sick bird or a surplus cock a difficult job but despite only having this hen for less than a week I am really struggling with the feelings of helplessness, frustration and inadequacy at the thought of dispatching her.


Although I am giving her antibiotic as a precaution she isnt ill as such, just weak. she can walk around, scrat, preen herself and drink. She just cant make contact with food in front of her. I think you are right about the beak....I'm just grasping at straws really. She closes her eyes alot too and sleeps which I think is just a sign of fatigue which could be the result of anemia.


Any other suggestions / experience? I wont dispatch her today but will persevere with the feeding. She managed the best part of a tin of tuna yesterday as a result of me holding it in front of her and each time she lunged forward to peck I moved it towards her so that she could grab the tuna. I hoped that by rewarding her her efforts to feed she would persevere and have the motivation to reach further and learn to rejudge the distance.


Anymore advice or suggestions greatfully received.
 
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: chrismahon on October 25, 2015, 07:44:23 am
The side effect of antibiotics is the destruction of gut flora, so even when they are eating they are not digesting so do not get the benefit of the food. Leaving the restoration of the gut flora to chance is a slow process. We speed it up with Avipro Avian is is a probiotic/ prebiotic powder soluble in water -also a useful tool for general health. Takes about two weeks to be fully effective.


The red mite sound horrendous and they will probably infect the coop as well (can survive for 36 weeks without feeding), so much work to follow. It takes a long time for them to recover from the blood loss, even without being moved. Whenever birds are moved there are a lot of changes for them and that creates stress, depresses the immune system and causes illness. We always bring with the birds a weeks worth of their feed so we can gradually wean them off it. She has probably never seen Tuna and she may not like the taste. I suggest had feeding the balls as mentioned previously. You can soak them in the AA.


We have several old cocks that can't see close up -they are perfectly happy as they just stick their beaks into the feeder and eat. However they can't pick up small treats off the floor.


Good luck with her. It's far too soon to be thinking of despatch- your next job should be worming with Flubenvet.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 25, 2015, 08:43:25 am
Thanks Chris,


  I have just ordered the Avian probiotic powder on line. I will give her actamel today and ditch the antibiotic. Fortunately she does like tuna and corn and has eaten some of each for breakfast.  :excited: I dont have any growers pellets to hand but I have chick crumb without antibiotic and turkey pellets which are both high in protein.


 I will mix up something tasty for her and let you know how we get on.


 



Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: landroverroy on October 25, 2015, 09:08:59 am
Things seem to be sounding promising  :fc: .
Having read your original post, I found it really puzzling as to why an adult bird which has obviously fed itself up to now, should suddenly have difficulties in the way you describe. :thinking:
But - now your description of the red mite infestation, and Chris's post make sense. The anaemia caused by all those mites would explain her extreme tiredness after the effort of eating.  I too once had a hen that was covered in red mite, and after treatment she was incredibly lethargic and required special attention for quite a while.
Animals seem to know when you care for them and are trying to help them, and I'm sure the positiveness of your actions actually helps give them the strength to recover. So good luck with her and let us know how she gets on .   :sunshine:
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 25, 2015, 09:36:24 am
Thanks LLR,


  yes I was puzzled by it too and followed the same thought process as you. She couldnt have always had a problem like Dotty ( the hen in my blog link) as she wouldnt have grown up big and strong. The person that I bought her from had not owned her long so perhaps she only got infested with mite a few weeks ago.


I did wonder if the mites could effect her vision in that way but although I accept Chris's view that they can...I'm not really sure how? She is fortunately very calm and friendly so treating her is not as stressful for her as it could be for others. I hope she does know that I'm trying to do my best for her. If she can meet me halfway she will be fine. I feel so relieved that she is eating now and that I have a plan.


I treat my birds with ivermectin on a regular basis and wormer from the vet so everyone will get treated for mites now for the next 3 weeks.


Thanks for your encouragement I will do my best to get her back on track




 
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: chrismahon on October 25, 2015, 12:39:08 pm
The eyesight problem may be simply a temporary loss of control of the focussing of the lens on one side. Their eyesight is very complex and has been the subject of much study. It is poor in low light conditions anyway, but covers a wider spectrum than ours. You may notice that for closeup they use one eye and for distance the opposite one. They have to swivel their focus from different distances and to a very narrow angle to see food in front of them and this is a lot to expect of a sick hen. They also couple the images they capture (rather than the scanned images we store) with their memory references and add to that a spacial awareness in stored memory that we don't have. This is why they go to where the coop was when it is moved to lay and roost and also why they try to get into a blocked nest box from all directions -top, bottom and sides. In moving chickens you completely alter their perception of the world and this is going to disturb them. Bit like you being taken from your home and being released in a strange house in a totally different country.


You need to tell the seller of the red mite problem as it may lead to a major outbreak that will result in fatalities if not dealt with immediately. We don't use Ivermectin at all. We successfully control red mite with a daily perch check, potash in the dust baths and a steam cleaner for the coops when they prove positive for mites- no drugs or chemicals, the residual effects of which which could affect the birds immune systems (we lost 2 using ant powder). We did 5 of the 10 coops last year and are helped considerably by ants which feast on red mite but are killed first by any chemicals.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: landroverroy on October 25, 2015, 04:55:44 pm
 That's interesting about ants eating red mite.
If only it were possible to encourage them into the henhouse, what a wonderfully natural way to keep a perpetual pest under control. :thinking:
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 25, 2015, 06:17:08 pm
Thanks Chris


  thats really interesting about their eye sight. And yes I have advised the person that I got them from.


She can now eat corn from the floor of the coop but not from a dish which is really interesting. She gets up, eats a little, has a drink and then goes back to the straw in the corner of her little home which is a 100% improvement.


I gave her Actimel with blueberry today and as it went through her, her droppings changed from bottle green and white to a muddy, typical chicken poo colour. Not what I would call a healthy looking poo but much more normal than the greener than green one.



Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: chrismahon on October 26, 2015, 05:38:01 am
Good news Buffy. I expect her to pick up quickly from now on.


Unfortunately the ants can't get to all the red mite because they can't squeeze or reach far enough into all the gaps between timbers Landroverroy. I have seen ants on both sides of a 34mm framework spar trying to reach the red mite at the centre. That's where the steamer comes in handy. As soon as ants are spotted in a coop we know there are mites in there, long before they get to serious numbers, so treatment with the steamer is usually completely effective first time.
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: devonlady on October 26, 2015, 09:02:48 am
Buffy, I am so pleased your little hen is recovering. Bear in mind though that cross-beak is a genetic condition and that it is not wise to breed from a hen who has it even if mildly. Don't file her beak but use small dog nail clippers to clip the top beak a bit. I hope all goes well for her, she will be a real pet with all this love showered on her!
Title: Re: Whats killing my Wyandotte?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on October 26, 2015, 02:46:31 pm
Hi everyone,


  well she ate from a dish today and so I gave her oats and cat meat. ( my hens never miss any opportunity to break into the house and steal cat meat) Turns out she likes oats but not cat meat. But I like a girl who knows her own mind. When I got back at lunch time she was spring cleaning her nest area so its time for a muck out I think.


She still needs lots of sleep as you would imagine but has longer and more frequent activity periods between the rests. I dosed her so heavily in diatom that she looks like the snow queen from nania but her occasional head scratch tells me they are still biting her. They need to bite her in order to be killed off by the drops unfortunately so I'm trying to see her scratching as positive. A friend of mine rescued 3 rhea a few years ago and one was so weak from a flea infestation that he couldnt stand up. he was recuperated with broccoli and critical care formula so I have given her broccoli and critical care in her water. Oh it turns out she likes sardines too.


the other two who remain in the quarantine coop are getting a similar treatment as one of them is clearly weak. The other one looks ok on the surface but they all must have been bitten to death. They do like cat meat it turns out and had cat meat with oats and blueberry actimel this morning. The weaker one of the two gets her encouragement to eat from the stronger one so I'm maintaining this status quo for the time being.


No one is laying at the moment so ivermectin and cat meat isnt ending up in my breakfast eggs.


I feel confident that they will all make it now though i know that it will take some weeks of nursing and nailing all those bl@@dy mites. I think their may be a story behind these hens. I noticed the poorly one has compacted gunk under her outer toe nails which I have only ever seen in hens made to stand around in filth and droppings. The coops they were in when I got them had a deep shavings base and were very clean so it didnt come from there. I discovered recently that the person that I bought them from has only had them a month. I think the place where they got the dirty toenails is the place where they got the mites.


Despite all the cost, care and heart ache I'm not sorry that I bought them, but I am sorry that they have all had to suffer like this.


Devon, now she has more composure the beak fits together fine though it is a little hooked. Im sure it will change once they get ranging. I bet they have never done that before either. I didn't plan to breed from them though so thats fine.