The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: twizzel on August 24, 2015, 01:20:16 pm
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Can anyone help me. I bought 5 copper black maran pullets about a month ago at about 15 weeks old. They settled in really well and found a place within the pecking order with my other hens. All eating fine, roosting at night and looking healthy. On Friday I found one of them dead, thought nothing of it other than bad luck. On Saturday morning another looked ill, her wings had gone limp and she found it hard balancing, very hunched up. We culled her and interestingly when my partner did the deed she didn't flap after at all. The other 3 were looking fine both on Saturday and yesterday. This morning 1 is looking like she's going down the same route, limp wings so I expect I will need to cull her before tonight. Another is walking round with her wings not tucked up as high as they would normally. The last one at the moment is looking ok.
The rest of my hens and cockerels are absolutely fine and (apart from the mud thanks to the rain these past few days) are happy and healthy. They are all over year hens and the roosters are 2/3 yrs old.
Could this be mareks? I have done nothing different with these pullets than any of my other hens. They were healthy and happy for 4 weeks and now I doubt I"ll have any left by the weekend if they carry on at this rate :-[ If I was to cull any more is it worth us opening one up and seeing what's going on inside?
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Common symptom of Mareks is the pupil of the eye going grey. Avian Leukosis has some shared symptoms. In both cases the chickens can often take quite a few days to expire. Are they able to hold their necks up OK (?Limber Neck). Are their droppings different from usual? Are they eating and drinking OK up to the point where they're obviously unwell? Have they had access to long grass or lots of veg and is smelly liquid issuing from their beak when they die (? Sour Crop).
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Def not sour crop, all eating ok until they get ill. No long grass, they have veg scraps but not had any for a week or so. Their droppings are quite watery thinking about it? The thing that makes me think it's mareks is only my young pullets are affected…
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Cocci? I've had this break out at that age. Got some stuff to treat pigeons off the net and it sorted them. Had about 20 Welsummers who just started hunching up and dying one by one. Mucky or closed up eyes is another sign. The meds stopped the dying within a day and after the full treatment they were all OK. Took a while to get full vitality back but now you wouldn't know. Sadly, the cockerels had to be binned as you can't eat them after treatment.
If they've just gone onto grass this might be a possibility. Good luck, I know how it feels.
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Cocci? I've had this break out at that age. Got some stuff to treat pigeons off the net and it sorted them. Had about 20 Welsummers who just started hunching up and dying one by one. Mucky or closed up eyes is another sign. The meds stopped the dying within a day and after the full treatment they were all OK. Took a while to get full vitality back but now you wouldn't know. Sadly, the cockerels had to be binned as you can't eat them after treatment.
If they've just gone onto grass this might be a possibility. Good luck, I know how it feels.
Do you mean the Harker's coccidiostat Stereo? I use that too. Can birds who have had it never be eaten or is there just the usual withdrawal period?
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I don't think it's cocci... Might be wrong but the main most debilitating symptom is the paralysis, the birds in early stages still seem to be bright in themselves and eating but wobbly. Later stages they almost fall over but eyes are still open and they are still aware of surroundings. I have contacted our vet and just waiting to hear back about doing a pm on one of the birds that I think we will have to cull.
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Cocci? I've had this break out at that age. Got some stuff to treat pigeons off the net and it sorted them. Had about 20 Welsummers who just started hunching up and dying one by one. Mucky or closed up eyes is another sign. The meds stopped the dying within a day and after the full treatment they were all OK. Took a while to get full vitality back but now you wouldn't know. Sadly, the cockerels had to be binned as you can't eat them after treatment.
If they've just gone onto grass this might be a possibility. Good luck, I know how it feels.
Do you mean the Harker's coccidiostat Stereo? I use that too. Can birds who have had it never be eaten or is there just the usual withdrawal period?
Yes, that's it. As far as I know, they should never be eaten. But then again, you probably get much worse in a Big Mac!
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Has one of your groups of birds been vaccinated against Marek's and the other not?
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Not sure about the ex commercials but there are other just over year old hens in the flock that I hatched and weren't vaccinated
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I bought some Copper Marans at POL a couple of years back and after integration into my homebred flock they just started dying off one at a time. Symptoms were very similar to yours, but they also killed off all of my hens that were in that house... No idea what it was at the time, my thoughts had been Mareks, but of course didn't get it confirmed.
Have since then stopped buying in female birds, only eggs or bringing in adult (from non-commercial non-vaccinated holdings) cockerels and home-breed replacements...
Sorry not much help, but I commiserate...
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Thanks. I spoke to vet who advised for this small number of pullets not to post mortem due to cost but to treat it as Mareks and cull the remaining 3. He said the rest of my flock should be old enough not to contract it but agreed that in the future only buy stock vaccinated against it. I don't really want to hatch any chickens out as I seem to have bad luck and hatch mainly males (both duck and chickens... the drakes are quicker to finish and tastier than eating cockerels so just stick to hatching ducks now) plus space is limited. Last year I ended up with 3 pullets and 15 roosters... >:(
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??? really?
But you don't know that it is Mareks?
You might be culling 3 healthy hens when , as you vet says, your older hens aren't at risk.
Id be inclined to wait, albeit ready to cull immediately that another goes off. In the meantime Id treat for cocci
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I'd tend to assume ex-commercials had been vaccinated. Some birds will shed the virus, although being unaffected by it, at times of stress, like coming into lay, moulting, joining a new flock ....
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??? really?
But you don't know that it is Mareks?
You might be culling 3 healthy hens when , as you vet says, your older hens aren't at risk.
Id be inclined to wait, albeit ready to cull immediately that another goes off. In the meantime Id treat for cocci
2 are showing symptoms; 1 is going to be culled tonight, the other is not so bad but I suspect will go down hill :(
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Oh no. Poor things. Im sorry you are going through this
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I breed Marrans and some think like this happened to me. I made a sale for 3 cocks 4 hens the stock was perfect in every way delivered in Yorkshire. 4 days later 2 dead the phone went. The stock is ill iv phoned the vet given tarlin. I DISAGREED treat for coxid 3more died. The rest lived. The stress and the wether to blame. The person went mad I paid up. My stock have never had eney think wrong. A nother pict 8chicks out of 50 8 were cocks again my folt.
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Hi Twizzel - just wanted to commiserate as I know how grim this is. I bought in a few hens and made the error of running them near to (not with) the existing flock (who were vaccinated against Mareks). I lost two of four to what I suspect was Mareks. Symptoms were sudden wobbliness and putting wings out to steady themselves. Then went down and couldn't get up. Absolutely horrible. I considered a PM but vet advised that it isn't always conclusive / needed to be sent to offsite lab. So I assumed that was what it was and now I will only buy vaccinated stock as I understand that Mareks can live on all around for months in feather debris etc. However, two survived which made no sense to me but was pleasantly surprised about. I disinfected everything and kept all kit (and hens) completely separate. So sorry, it's horrid to keep seeing them go downhill.
Martha R
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Thankyou Martha. Unfortunately all 3 remaining pullets now showing early symptoms. I highly doubt it is cocci given that there is no blood in stools, they are still eating as and when they can potter about until the late stages. Nothing environmental has changed they have been here with me for 4 weeks and by the time they became ill they were totally settled, eating well and roosting at night, the other hens had accepted them.
Will have to chalk it down to bad luck I guess and just be careful where I buy my stock from in future, luckily I do not sell my hens on they are with me for life and don't hatch chicks anymore so that is something I guess. I have a few ex commercial hens that I think are vaccinated against it but in the same respect they are running with 6-10 unvaccinated birds which I hatched out here so would have been pullets too last year. to all who have taken the time to comment today it's much appreciated.
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I hate to say this but in my experience, going on what you have said, your birds have given something to them. I may be wrong and don't want to start an argument but that would be my personal assumption if I were you. I would treat for Cocci as a last resort and I would do it at day break tomorrow.
Older hens can carry many things and hide them well. They are the survivors after all. Cocci doesn't always have all the classic symptoms. It's the only problem I have ever had and it has manifested itself in many different ways. I've got a handle on it now but it's never as the textbook says.
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I very much doubt it's Marek's as they would deteriorate much slower than yours.
It could be coccidiosis as there are many strains of it and they can easily have it without showing blood in their stools.
In addition, a low cocci count still damages the gut and that way other bacteria can get a hold.
Post mortems can indeed be inconclusive, but I had one done on two different occasions by the RVC and they were free.
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There are now two strains of Mareks. The original is slow to develop and shows the classic symptoms- legs spread and blurred pupils, but the new strain can kill in days. It is believed the new 'fast' Mareks strain is a result of mutation from the 'slow' immunisation programme. There is no immunisation for the fast strain available at present I am told.
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Mine (assumed Mareks) went downhill fast - one day eating, drinking and moving about normally, then sudden onset of unsteady gait and wings flopping and then rapidly off their legs - they needed to be culled within 2-3 days as I recall. My conclusion was also that one or more of the 'old' hens had been a carrier and passed it to the unvaccinated ones. Horrible. Thinking of you twizzel.
Martha R