The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Buzzard on August 22, 2015, 06:16:57 pm
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can we put a touring caravan on a 3 acre orchard that we rent for use as an allotment? We want to make tea etc in it and maybe stay in it with friends sometimes overnight with a bit of camping. It's not near our house but is overlooked by other houses.
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You need planning permission, if you do not get it expect a visit from the council enforcement officer.
You can place a caravan for 28 days in a year without permission but only for 2 concecutive nights
Worth a read - http://www.wyreforestdc.gov.uk/media/116974/AL14_Caravans.pdf (http://www.wyreforestdc.gov.uk/media/116974/AL14_Caravans.pdf)
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Might get on better with a shed clearly for storing fruit and orchard sundries of course. Naturally you would need a kettle for the odd cuppa.......
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Might get on better with a shed clearly for storing fruit and orchard sundries of course. Naturally you would need a kettle for the odd cuppa.......
and a couple of settees/chairs that might accidentally convert into beds :innocent:
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Might get on better with a shed clearly for storing fruit and orchard sundries of course. Naturally you would need a kettle for the odd cuppa.......
and a couple of settees/chairs that might accidentally convert into beds :innocent:
Shed may be ok, rest would not do that, or at least wait a good period of time to see if council appear.
Intresting exemption is temporary accomadation for agricultral worker for seasonal worker (may be apple picking would qualify)
But councils dont hesitate to put a enforcement notice on.
The notice gets served on the land it will inclued owners. mortgagees ect , may not go down well with owners and stays with property forever
I am appealing one myself now its been going on for a year, says no residential furniture on the site at all. I also have a email from head planner saying i am not entitled to stay on site for goats kidding {Intend to test that in December if need be in court)
Becareful you do not want hassle you can avoid
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Thanks for your posts everyone. I was under the impression that because the owner of the land said it was ok to put the caravan on, that was the only permission needed. Trying to work out planning laws is very difficult - thanks for the link. The owner has lots of land but I am only renting 3 acres. The only thing that was written in plain English that I found beforehand was an article from Northern Ireland and not England, where I am! Thanks again.
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Gov sites have recently been updated so links i had do not work
This is a intresting read
http://www.selfbuildtimberframe.com/mobile-home-manufacturers/251-dc-notes-when-is-a-caravan-a-building-operation-and-garden-carvans (http://www.selfbuildtimberframe.com/mobile-home-manufacturers/251-dc-notes-when-is-a-caravan-a-building-operation-and-garden-carvans)
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Basically - you cant put anything that sounds like a little holiday folly on a bit of land (even if you own the land) - cos otherwise the whole of london (and other city dwellers) would buy an patch for 3 grand and put a caravan in the middle of it - which means the country could not produce food, cos too many caravans on it.
That said - there are ways.
But I would not expect permission to be given to have a holiday caravan on agricultural land.
I would imagine that the land has agri status? - your allowed to spend 64 days a year - but no longer than 30 constitutive days 'living' on it.
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mind you - its always worth risking it for a buscuit.
Put it on and see what follows - you might be the lucky one.
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Hi bazzais
I would imagine that the land has agri status? - your allowed to spend 64 days a year - but no longer than 30 constitutive days 'living' on it.
Could you eloborate where you found that info ?
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can we put a touring caravan on a 3 acre orchard that we rent for use as an allotment? We want to make tea etc in it and maybe stay in it with friends sometimes overnight with a bit of camping. It's not near our house but is overlooked by other houses.
You don't say where you are so it may be quite different to other parts of the UK
I'd make tentative enquiries at the planning office in person not email to start with to see if you , " Can site an old caravan for use as a shelter , tool , stock store at the orchard " .
I guess at that stage there is no need to mention anything else unless the planners ask you outright .
Don't ask too many different planners or those in authority , for eventually someone will feel honour bound to say no you can't & then you're stuffed .
Then , if they say yes that's OK , write a recorded letter to the person you spoke to keeping the dated copies asking the same question , ask for the reply by the end of six weeks before the weather turns bad .
If you get the letter back saying go a head , your covered and an occasional stay over due to being , " Too tired to drive " , shouldn't affect you . If anyone says anything, you can usually go for forgiveness and promise to & do amend your ways . ( Normally only persistent & gobby offenders get sanctioned first time round ) .
Be aware that regular noisy late night events will see the arse well & truly kicked out it it all .
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Not sure on 3 acres but you are allowed a 'workers hut' for having tea and lunch and getting out of the weather.
We have one tourer for just that and another for 3/4 ton of pig food.
They will likely visit to check you aren't staying in it. In our case the loo ws full of tools and the rest was full of odds and sods with just about room to sit down in next to the portable stove. Pretty obvious we weren't living there.
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Speaking from experience if you ever get a visit you will find they normally come as a pair,ie a enforcement officer and a planning officer.
Odds on you will be alone when they appear.
Whatever you do never admit saying you stay over night for any reason whatsoever even welfare do not do it.
It will be your word against two council officers that will not hesitate to manipulate what you say.
Do not fall for the frendly attitude, and for the people that believe they give you a oppertunity to remady things before they take action i can assure you in the majority of cases if they think its near time for possible lawful development they will jump on you like a ton of bricks
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I see we have come through the same , " Interesting system of education " Mart .
It certainly makes you very wary of all other contact with such people and the organisations to which they belong , for the same mindset tends to be in existence throughout it.
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You are not joking cloddopper , mine has been a year of hell and its still going on.
I put this link up for people to get a insight into what happens my own experience, a lot of misinformation on the internet.
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952 (http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952)
Best bit of advise i can give anyone if it happens is get your mobile out and say to them you do not mind if i record this do you. Watch faces change.
Worst bit is i have had lots of dealings with councils worked for one for 12 years got badly injured in a RTA at work i was a passenger council employee was driving
was off work 6 months on full pay then, the 6 months half pay. Told me to get back to work or i would be sacked despite doctors note. They got council doctor to give me medical he said there was nothing wrong and i was faking it.
Told me to get back to work or i am sacked. i Insisted on independent medical with specialist.
Result was i would never be able to return to that job again.. Tos-ers.
3 weeks later same council doctor had to sign me off for pension as unfit for work. Total bunch of crooks.
Gets better same council a good few years later gives Tescos planning permission to build on my land never even notified me i was adjoining property, i ended up having a 3 year battle with Tescos they are real sc_m.
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10252 (http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10252)
Now this crap different council this time,i will never speak to anyone from the council again without informing them i am recording it, you will be amazed how it pays off over time.
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Mart I've just had a speed read through both links
It makes me realise that unless anyone has numerous planning successes under their belt they need to read such links as you put up and also do a lot of research and critical logical thinking long into every thing long before they design their plans and submit the plans for consent
I wonder if anyone knows if there are any books on such things , if so where are they publicly available & if possible give the ISBN codes ?
My first foray into these things was a book called " Constructing farm buildings" by Blacks Scientific or some such similar name about 30 years ago .
Perhaps it's time to ask our site owners for a planning reference index maybes split in to the four parts of the UK , containing useful things wrt planning to be made as a sticky so to helpl other current & future TAS'ers .
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Hi cloddopper
Think you have worded that perfectly, managment could put up a caution warning along the lines
i am no legal expert or have any formal training along those lines but i would say.
If you ever get a visit from planning or planning enforcement. (For planning contravention)
If its a residential property i believe you have the right to ask them to give you 24 hours notice before you have to allow them in
Anything else they have a right to enter.
Next get straight on phone and see if you can get one or two people to come down to witness things before you say anything else.
Or tell them you wish to record the conversation , its only evidence if you tell them before hand.
They will take photos to use as possible evidence of offences commited
They may of done this from outside the property and may of been observing things for days/months before this visit
If accused of anything do not comment or deny it, do not say anything more or try to validate why you are doing something.
They will be persistant and as cloddopper says above unless you have the knowledge anything else you say could have serious repercusions, if taken out of context.
If they continue to hound you tell them you will seek legal advise before commenting futher.
Onething for sure you will have a couple of unhappy council officers and possibly saved yourself many hours of stress and plenty of £££££££.
Next i would seriously advise you to get legal/planning advise from a proffesional, anything it costs now will be less than if you had tried to explain yourself.
If funds are limited i strongly reccomend you go on to the Garden law web site
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php (http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php)
Post your problem and check the responses do not take everything as being correct.
But from my own experience there are a number of planning experts/ ex planning consultants who are willing to give you advice ect.
Read very carefully you will/should be able to spot who is best qualified to listen to imo.
Everything posted above is my personnal views and if in doubt always seek expert advice straight away delays could be costly
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Cripes... you have been through the mill!! :( I hope it all turned out ok in the end... I am currently having a run in with council officials... my hair is falling out with the worry of it all... will be posting soon. Good Luck!