The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: fiestyredhead331 on July 12, 2015, 11:55:04 am
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I don't have cattle myself but a few around here do and today I woke up to see a neighbours herd of Highlands (bull, 2 cows and 2 bullocks) out on the common grazing.
There is a fence between my ground and the common grazing so not too worried about them coming onto my patch but the issues occur when the cattle don't go far from the access gate onto the grazing as this is also a very popular walk for hillwalkers/tourists etc who then have to decide whether or not to 'run with the bull'.... :-\
last summer I saw quite a lot just turn round and go elsewhere and personally I don't blame them, a bull and cows with calves seem to me to be a recipe for potential trouble?
Is there any real reason for concern or am I just being paranoid? I'm not a fan of cattle I admit, I appreciate them (from a distance).
I have a herd of goats who regularly go onto the common grazing in the summer through the day for a munch on the heather but when the cattle are out I tend not to let them go out. Maybe I could advise walkers to gain access to the walk through my croft which usually gets them past the cattle?
Thoughts?....
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In fact highland cattle, in spite of their fearsome looking horns, are the most placid of animals. If the calves are more than a few days old they are not normally agressively protective, and the bulls also are very laid back. I would like to think that no one would graze an animal on common land that was in any way unpredictable.
But . . . having said that, you can never fully trust an animal that weighs maybe half a tonne or more, and legally, a bull on common land should be running with more than 2 cows. (I forget the minimum number)
I would be pretty sure you're not in any danger, but if you're not comfortable with them then just keep your distance and they'll just ignore you.
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oh don't worry I do, but I do know this bull is not the friendliest, the calves are probably around 3 months old so a decent size themselves.
I was out just now and they seem to have dandered off up the hill :thumbsup:
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A few years back we holidayed in Plockton , OH and my son took the mickey out of me for giving the free ranging Highlands a wide berth. A week after our return it was on the news that a tourist was killed by one of the highlands :-( Very sad. As you say you can never trust entirely, especially if they are not your own.
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It's common GRAZING, the walkers etc are exercising a privilege to go and have a wander up there. . . . . . it's a sad day when we can't put stock out on common grazing land because it might stop joe public enjoying their access to it.
The countryside is rapidly becoming a playground for the rich or for folk from the city. Lets not try to hasten the demise of the true countryside any more than it already is shall we?
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The majority of people waking in the countryside are neither rich nor from a city. Even if they were, they do not deserve to be killed by a highland bull! If its a common, other local people with grazing animals can wander through it too! Hopefully they are all peaceful and quiet, but I personally would give them a wide berth.
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no-one suggested you couldn't put stock on the grazings Porterlauren!
I for one won't go on the grazing if the bull is on the loose and thats my choice. at the very least the owners of the cattle should have signs put up at the gate warning walkers
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Sorry, maybe got a bit ott haha.
I wasn't suggesting that most walkers were rich or from the city. Although many are the latter. Just that in many places the everyday activities and uses of the countryside as an economic environment come under threat from those looking to use it as an area of pleasure. . . . I applaud people for getting out walking etc, but you've just got to accept that its a privilege we enjoy as a passtime. The cows (in many cases) are someones day to day work. . . . .
I do defiantly agree that signs should be up. But I reckon the bull has just as much right as the walkers. . . . probably more.
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A beef bull isn't happy on his own, he is happiest with cows who need his services ;) He is not generally dangerous when he's with cows, provided everyone behaves sensibly.
What would you have the cattle farmer do? Keep the bull locked up indoors all year?
I agree very much with PL's sentiments. Farming as we do in a World Heritage corridor, with a visitor attraction within ground that we farm, it is hard sometimes to think that the public think we are there for any purpose other than to augment their countryside experience. Sigh.
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The cattle aren't kept indoors at all, they have access to a shed on their croft, like most of us crofters they both work other jobs.
Unfortunately in an area that relies heavily on tourism we have to, to an extent, ensure people's safety. I remember when the man in Plockton was killed by the highland cow :(
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I think the biggest problem is the modern 'general publics' disassociation from animals and livestock and an apparent lack of common sense, irrespective of wether or not they are rich and or city dwellers. In the past there have always been walkers/ hikers or whatever you call them, in somewhat limited numbers, most used to keep to what was called the 'country code', i.e. leave all gates as you found them, don't deviate from the legal footpath, don't interfere with, feed or approach livestock, don't leave any litter, keep dogs on leads etc., etc.
However, todays 'freedom to roamers' are a different bunch, seemingly mostly bereft of common sense, self preservation and lacking in true knowledge of the farming business, countryside courtesies and the behaviour of livestock. This is why there are tragedies every year, both for the farmer losing his sheep to dog attacks, cattle being injured or poisoned by litter, gates left open or damaged etc., and the public suffering injuries or death. The vaunted 'freedom to roam' act without a very concerted public education programme I feel is responsible, the few public TV offerings have had little effect. I have absolutely nothing against anyone enjoying the countryside responsibly, indeed it is a good thing and healthy exercise and perhaps helps to educate people that is where their food originates from by dint of the hard work of the farmers and those chops, steaks and chickens are not born in a plastic bag in the supermarket!
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Well put, Cosmore :thumbsup:
Yes, of course, feisty, any livestock where walkers are entitled to be should be safe around humans who behave sensibly. It's that last three words which are the problem - so many people have no idea what constitutes sensible behaviour around livestock.
I'm a little tetchy on this subject because of the land that we farm and the number of tourists we get. We go to great lengths to have an amenable bull, and to only ever have very quiet beasts on the fields which take the bulk of the tourists, and yet we may still be asked to not put youngstock in the one field, because they congregate around the gate, which "frightens people and makes them reticent to go into the field." Can't win. We handle these animals and get them used to dogs so they are friendly and tame, then the very fact that they come to the gate because they are tame and like people puts people off. If we don't tame them or habituate them to dogs... well, we all know where that would end.
I think the site owners had better fence a walkers' corridor. But they'll say they haven't any money to do that... so then we'll remove the cattle and have to use chemicals to control weeds (can't use a topper where there are archeological remains!) and use more wormer for the sheep because we can't rotate the grazing...
Frankly it would be better if this ground were farmed by someone who had a tourist-related business and could make money out of all these folks. That's just not us, though.
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the man in Plockton was killed by the highland cow :(
so was it a cow or a bull?
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cow with calf if i remember rightly
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3192367.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3192367.stm)
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It's sad for everyone when there is a cattle attack. We ride through cows and followers with a bull daily through the summer and in over 20 years have only once had a problem when the whole herd got the impression I wanted them to go in front of me and jammed up the gate. There is probably towards 30 adult cows but they are generally fine.
The worst time is when the young cattle go out after winter full of beans and curious about everything.
These days I believe farmers are advised to put up signs warning people there may be cattle on a public right of way. I think there was a recent court case when a severely injured walker said she would have avoided a route had she known cows were on it.
At the end of the day you are safer in the countryside than you were driving to get to it! And here more people fall off the fells than are injured by cattle.
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These days I believe farmers are advised to put up signs warning people there may be cattle on a public right of way. I think there was a recent court case when a severely injured walker said she would have avoided a route had she known cows were on it.
Surely though, by walking in the country, you should expect animals to be there? I understand why signs are useful but surely that is more courtesy than need?
But then again with people these days who knows..
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With any rights (eg the right to roam) comes responsibilities (to the local people and their stock)
The younger generation (and I generalise!) believe in their 'rights' but seem to have lost the connection with responsibilities.
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I think signs are intended to protect the farmer if an injury happens. Using the countryside is a right whether people agree with it or not, or find it a nuisance to them and their farming activity. Some accidents will happen because the user does the wrong thing. Some will happen because the user was in the wrong place at the wrong time. They may find themselves injured because of the actions of someone who passed through earlier.
Rights of Way are Highways and we would expect to see signs on roads that protect and improve our safety. I don't know whether people who use the countryside today have less commonsense, I actually doubt that, I think we just have more people using it so more chance for conflict. Also these days if people are injured they look for compensation so farmers need to protect themselves. A sign has to be cheaper than an injury claim.
Bulls are not normally the issue but the cows with calves. Fiestyredhead has already said she knows this bull is not the friendliest. She also asked should she let people through her croft to avoid the common gate? She seems to have serious concerns to me as to whether this particular bull should be on the common or not.
I don't know about Scottish Law but here should you allow people access across your land you run the risk of it becoming a right of way unless you make sure it is known it is only a permissive route that you can close again at any time.
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You all make it out that it is always Joe City Public that is killed or injured by cattle - however I believe far more farmers are killed/injured by their own livestock than walkers on a day out... it just usually doesn't get much coverage.
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With any rights (eg the right to roam) comes responsibilities (to the local people and their stock)
The younger generation (and I generalise!) believe in their 'rights' but seem to have lost the connection with responsibilities.
I agree, but myself have found the most officious horrible people shouting about rights as they picnic on our lawn or forage for firewood/apples/give their offspring driving lessons etc have invariably had grey hair! So maybe we can't pick on an age group here!
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Anke, this was about "Highland Cattle, Common Grazing and Jo Public" not about farmers being killed by their stock, which yes does happen. Farmers however know the risks of keeping livestock.
I agree with you Me it is often the older users who have more to say about their rights whether they are right or not.
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Since starting this thread I have allowed several people to take a short cut and avoid any potential trouble.
The latest being a young couple from further South who were up on holiday with their 2 staffie dogs. It was a horrible wet day and as they came down the track (she had wellies, he had trainers on ::) ) they came face to face with the bull, cows and calves.
Thankfully the female in this couple had the sense to warn her partner as he was just striding towards the bull with the dogs straining at the leash!!!
It was luck really that I'd even seen them and I shouted to them to backtrack and come through our gate at the top which they did and were very grateful (even if the bloke slipped and fell several times in his stupid trainers) and we even made their day as 6 goat kids had been born the day before so they got to see them on their detour ;D
I suppose one of the points I was originally trying to make was that, as Anke says farmers get hurt every day by their own livestock, but what chance do holiday makers who don't know the potential dangers have?
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But, if you are going to let folk use your land to avoid the cattle do, as Harmony said and make sure it doesn't become a recognised right of way. Put a sign up saying, something like "Although you are welcome to walk through here to avoid the cattle this DOES NOT designate this as a public right of way. Dogs must be kept on a lead at all times."
Oh, the joys of farming!!
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Hmm, I certainly wouldn't put any sign up giving a 'permissive route'. It could lead to all sorts of legal problems, not least of which is if someone had an accident and injured themselves on your land no matter how short the route. IMO it would be far better and legally safer for you to put up a sign at Both ends stating 'Keep Out, Private Land, NO public right of way or Access'. Then if people do ignore the signs and continue, they are trespassing at their own risk. Sorry to sound unsympathetic to the walkers, but you must protect yourself from a legal position, especially in todays legislative culture with accident and injury no win no fee lawyers proactively toting for business.
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i might need to put up signs myself saying beware of the friendly goats who may come up to search your pockets and pose for selfies ::)
as for allowing access through my ground, its only ever if I see a potential issue, if I'm not here then they are on their own and my gate is small and tucked away in a corner so not obvious to walkers. Those who I have allowed access to are accompanied at all times, dogs on leads if they have any etc etc
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IMO it would be far better and legally safer for you to put up a sign at Both ends stating 'Keep Out, Private Land, NO public right of way or Access'.
Nope, in Scotland putting up that sign would in itself be illegal.
To quote the outdoor access code;
Everyone, whatever their age or ability, has access rights established by the land reform act 2003. You only have access rights if you exercise them responsibly
Basically these access rights cover just about all land in Scotland and anyone can walk, cycle, ride a horse, wild camp wherever they want, whenever they want. Both land managers and the public have responsibilities to each other in order to make it work. The entire code can be found here http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com (http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com)
Putting up a sign that flatly says "no entry" is not acceptable (and could get you in trouble), and if I came across that sign I would probably deliberately walk through it. If on the other hand I came across a sign saying "please take care, there is livestock in this field and you may wish to consider an such and such alternative route" then I would probably avoid the field. (Although putting up a sign warning about livestock when there is actually no livestock in the field is seen to be needlessly discouraging access and so is also not acceptable.)
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every one says about these access rights but does it include dogs
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Access rights extend to people with dogs, provided that the dogs are "under proper control"
The outdoor access code gives specific guidance as to the extra responsibilities that dog owners are under.
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IMO it would be far better and legally safer for you to put up a sign at Both ends stating 'Keep Out, Private Land, NO public right of way or Access'.
Nope, in Scotland putting up that sign would in itself be illegal.
To quote the outdoor access code;
Everyone, whatever their age or ability, has access rights established by the land reform act 2003.
Ok, all noted, a bit different to England, I was writing from a Dorset perspective - I don't mind responsible walkers keeping to legal footpaths etc., but I'm dammed if I'd welcome them trampling willy nilly all over my farmland for many valid reasons. Surely it must sometimes cause a headache in Scotland?
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if they have got a right to walk on your land does it also apply to peoples gardens