The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 12:08:14 am

Title: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 12:08:14 am
We have 10 Shetland Sheep.  They aren't pedigree or registered in anyway.  We got them as ground clearers and to run with horses.

So, we are interested in breeding them but are drawing a blank on finding a suitable ram.  So I was hoping there may be some advice out there from others who have experienced this before. 

As they aren't pedigree then a Shetland Ram is not essential, but obviously preferred, but which breeds do people think would be suitable as possible breeding partners if no Shetland can be found?  Just so I can narrow my search a little.

We have many people around us with the larger breeds but, as they've never needed them, they haven't been much help on what smaller breeds would be ok.

And is there somewhere I can go to find "rams for stud"? Or is it very much a case of "who you know"?

Hope you can help   :D
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 12:57:08 pm
Just re-read that, when I say "not registered" I mean in a pedigree sense, they are of course tagged and registered as being on our land.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Thyme on June 27, 2015, 01:14:01 pm
Where are you located?

If you want a Shetland ram, you can look on the breed society website for the Area Representative to contact, and they will help you find one.  http://www.shetland-sheep.org.uk/page.php?Plv=2&P1=5&P2=10&P3= (http://www.shetland-sheep.org.uk/page.php?Plv=2&P1=5&P2=10&P3=)

If you're near mid-Wales, I'll happily sell you a tup lamb ;D
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Marches Farmer on June 27, 2015, 01:25:24 pm
We'll have Southdown rams and ram lambs for hire and sale this Autumn if you're near the Welsh Marches (that said, someone travelled from  Derbyshire to hire one last year).  They'll give sturdy lambs, very unlikely to have lambing problems and a good carcase.  If you don't mind lambing after Easter we'll have a two year old Badger Face Welsh Mountain (Torddu) that will be for sale as we can't use him on his own daughters next year.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: mowhaugh on June 27, 2015, 01:39:56 pm
Yep, let us know where you are - lots of us on here have shetlands, so someone will be able to help you, or point you in the direction of someone who can.   
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 01:42:42 pm
Just worked out how to add location to my name :) as you can see we're in South Lanarkshire!

I had a look on the Shetland Sheep website and have to be honest felt a bit intimidated lol particularly as ours aren't officially pedigree.  But you think that won't be a problem?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: mowhaugh on June 27, 2015, 01:43:56 pm
OK, being dim, just noticed you are South Lanarkshire, don't know how I missed that before.  If you want to come and see ours you'd be welcome, and we also have cheviots which make an excellent cross with shetlands,  but I wouldn't be surprised if there is someone even closer. Or, go to the shetland sale at Lanark Mart at the end of August, and you'll have lots to choose from.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 01:52:21 pm
It's ok, I only just added the location, you're not going mad!  :)

Is it worth buying a ram? We'd always assumed we would be better just hiring as we needed him? :)
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: bloomer on June 27, 2015, 02:04:54 pm
Buy one use him eat him unless your looking to keep longer term, Shetland tups aren't hugely expensive. (mine was champion lamb at last year's Sss show and sale cost me 50 but he's a big easy to handle baby so he worked last year and will do this year, then he'll be sold swapped as after 18 months I won't be able to convince the kids to eat him... If I don't get an easy swap I'll go onto the buy use eat model so I don't have a tup around all year to make field management easier...
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: mowhaugh on June 27, 2015, 02:29:46 pm
Yes, agree with Bloomer - buy, use, eat.  Some people will hire out tups, but not many due to the biosecurity risks of them going onto someone else's farm then coming home potentially carrying disease.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Big Light on June 27, 2015, 03:38:41 pm
Shetland and hebridean rare breed sale at end if august at lanark mart end of august - see events section there will be plenty to pick from
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Fleecewife on June 27, 2015, 03:47:15 pm
Hi  :wave: I'm in South Lanarkshire too.  There are lots of Shetlands around, and many people do as I do and leave their lambs entire to see if they are worth registering, so there are entire unreg tup lambs available.
Best is to buy a lamb, use him on your ewes, then eat, as people are saying.  Depending on whereabouts in SL you are, it being a big place, I can think of several breeders who maybe able to help.
I have some HebXShets this year - it's a good cross to try.
I don't see the point of buying a reg tup, unless you are thinking of changing your ewes for reg.  It's quite a palaver to register a Shetland tup and get him approved, so not worth it for unreg ewes.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 03:50:00 pm
Thanks for all the info!

We had considered the eating option with some of our 'spares' :)

Buying a ram, for buy use eat, is there anything I should be looking for? Age etc? And any hints on the sort of price I should expect to pay?

On a slightly different note. Eating them. How do I go about getting them dispatched and prepared?  I've found an abattoir at Wishaw and they might be suitable but are abattoirs the way to go or is there some better way? And again, what sort of prices are we looking at?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 03:53:02 pm
Hi  :wave: I'm in South Lanarkshire too.  There are lots of Shetlands around, and many people do as I do and leave their lambs entire to see if they are worth registering, so there are entire unreg tup lambs available.
Best is to buy a lamb, use him on your ewes, then eat, as people are saying.  Depending on whereabouts in SL you are, it being a big place, I can think of several breeders who maybe able to help.
I have some HebXShets this year - it's a good cross to try.
I don't see the point of buying a reg tup, unless you are thinking of changing your ewes for reg.  It's quite a palaver to register a Shetland tup and get him approved, so not worth it for unreg ewes.

 :wave:
Hello!
We are around Larkhall, do you know where I am?
Any help would be welcomed.  I am certainly not concerned about whether he is registered or not so if there was an unreg. tup somewhere we'd be interested!
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: bloomer on June 27, 2015, 04:05:27 pm
Wishaw gets a good right up from many on here.

An unregistered lamb 6 months old should be 30-50 quid depends if your fussy on colour etc (kind of depends if you want particular colour babies, which also depends onyour ewe colours)

If you aren't fussed about when your lambs are born run him with your girls right through till this time next year, eat him you would expect up to 20kg oh meat (bone in).

Obviously you could send away sooner but less meat.

Shetlands being kept solely for meat go at 16-18months. 


Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: bigchicken on June 27, 2015, 05:35:22 pm
Get yourself along to lanark market dates on there web page and buy a beltex tup lamb and use him on your shetlands you will get chunky wee lambs that sell well at market and he will also sell well there's no money in shetland unless you go the full hog and try to sell them as hogget butcher prepared in half or whole, a lot of work and time building up customer's etc.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 05:44:57 pm
Is it ok to use a Beltex ram, he's not too big/heavy for a Shetland ewe?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: bigchicken on June 27, 2015, 05:58:37 pm
 No I have used beltex several times and had no problems at all. I found that the lambs were very evenly sized,  like peas in a pod. Another good cross was Llyen, they sold ok too. I have seen Ryeland crosses that sold well at a rare breeds sale. All sold better than unregistered shetland. I have some blackface cross shetland this year and they are looking good growing well, would never have though of the cross before.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Fleecewife on June 27, 2015, 06:22:09 pm
A Beltex should be ok on Shetland ewes but definitely not first time lambers, especially for a first time owner.   The whole point of meat from Primitives is that it has special, slow-grown properties, which set it apart from much larger, quick grown carcases.  You do have to keep them on to 16 months, but they eat grass and hay through the winter, so are not expensive to keep, if you have the ground.  If all you want is a large carcase, then crossing with a large tup is the way.  For age, I would suggest getting a lamb is best, as he will be tasty, whereas an older tup could be a bit musty and greasy.

For getting your lambs slaughtered, Wishaw is too big and they can't really cope with just one or two.   Shotts is better, being a small outfit, and they are happy to do small numbers.  The guys there like the unusual sheep, rare breeds, and are friendly. You can take your lambs in the afternoon before, so they are starved when they go in, but they get water of course.  They are also happy for you to come back a couple of hours later to collect the skins for tanning, if you let them know in advance.     All slaughterhouses are horrible to go to, but then their job is a horrible one.

Yes, I know Larkhall, kind of.  Well, I know about where it is  :D  We are north of Biggar, so not so far away
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 07:10:59 pm
Thank you all again for the advice. 

Do people think it perhaps wise to go for a Shetland tup for our first time (and the sheep's) and make it is as easy and straight forward as possible for our first go and then consider a Beltex (or other) for the next time to make for a better seller?

Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Womble on June 27, 2015, 09:10:59 pm
That sounds like a good idea!

We bought a spare tup lamb from Bloomer last year and used him on our Manx Loaghtans and were very pleased with the outcome. Unfortunately he became a bit grumpy  a month ago, so we ate him!

The plan this year is to put the Manxs to our Zwartble tup. If I'm honest, I'm a little nervous about this, but folks in the know tell me it'll be alright for second timers.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 27, 2015, 10:28:46 pm
So if I was to get a tup at the end of August, from the sale (for example) I would run him with my ewes until when?  Would I need to take him away from them or can he continue to run with them?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Womble on June 27, 2015, 11:36:52 pm
Unfortunately if you were to do that, you could be lambing in February, which probably isn't ideal! The usual would be to keep him separate from the ewes until early to mid November, which would then give you lambs in early to mid April. Do you have secure separate fields so you can do that?  If not, it might be easier to buy privately but collect him only when you need him.

He could stay in with them right through till lambing, but the downside of that is you won't know a definite end date for your lambing period (unless all of the ewes get pregnant and then give birth I suppose).
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 28, 2015, 08:58:52 am
Sorry, more questions :) just want to get this straight in my head before I get stuck in!

If I am buy, use, eat-ing him what age would he need to be to eat (assuming he's a Shetland)?  I ask because if I buy him in Mid-Nov, run him with the sheep for, is two weeks long enough?  His job would then be done and it's chops in his future. But if he's young I would need to keep him till the right age for slaughter. So would it be better to buy a slaughter age tup and use him so he can be sent away straight away.

I do have a paddock he could have but he'd need to be on his own, would that bother him? All I've got is a goat for a companion but she's a she so I don't think that'd work. Although she's grumpy so he'd get a good butting if he got familiar! Least he'd be nice and tender! Lol  ;D And the paddock is part of my rotation for the sheep so I'd lose it over the winter which I d rather not.

So I could buy him early but I'd rather not keep him too long I guess.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: SallyintNorth on June 28, 2015, 09:05:04 am
A sheep's ovulation cycle is 17 days, so most people would keep the tup in for 35 days, to give him 2 cycles.

Some people say there can be a taint to the meat if the tup has been working, so would keep him for a month afterwards or two to let the hormones die down, before sending him for slaughter. 

Maybe you could find a tup lamb and a wether mate you could buy as a pair?   And send both away together, too.

Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Marches Farmer on June 28, 2015, 09:42:02 am
Ram taint could take quite a while to disappear, especially if he's held anywhere near the ewes.  We leave tups in for 19 days.  Any ewes tupped in the first two days that were a bit too late in their cycle to take should come back in season.  Any barreners are culled after scanning. That way we don't get a flock with shy breeders and an extended lambing period.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 28, 2015, 09:56:20 am
Does Ram taint make the meat really gross or just 'tangy'?  :-\

But it looks like I could be keeping him for a few months regardless of his age.

OOI from what age is the Ram sexually active? Is there an optimum age?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 28, 2015, 10:11:51 am

For getting your lambs slaughtered, Wishaw is too big and they can't really cope with just one or two.   Shotts is better, being a small outfit, and they are happy to do small numbers.  The guys there like the unusual sheep, rare breeds, and are friendly. You can take your lambs in the afternoon before, so they are starved when they go in, but they get water of course.  They are also happy for you to come back a couple of hours later to collect the skins for tanning, if you let them know in advance.     All slaughterhouses are horrible to go to, but then their job is a horrible one.


Is the one in Shotts The Scottish Borders Abattoir?
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Fleecewife on June 28, 2015, 11:51:04 am
Isn't that at Galashiels?  I thought it had closed down.
Shotts is at Shotts; I think it's just called Shotts abattoir  :)
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: cully_c on June 28, 2015, 03:20:46 pm
Isn't that at Galashiels?  I thought it had closed down.
Shotts is at Shotts; I think it's just called Shotts abattoir  :)

I just searched Google for Shotts Abattoir, it came up with  Scottish Borders Abattoir, with an address of Shotts Slaughter House, Foundry Road. Could it be they've moved, or bought the one in Shotts?

Also came up was a James Chapman Butchers, The Abattoir, Foundry Rd.  They were the only two results for abattoirs in Shotts.
Title: Re: How Do I Find a Ram?
Post by: Fleecewife on June 28, 2015, 05:11:38 pm
It's the one in Foundry road, and is owned by John Chapman, who also run Wishaw.  It's been there for far longer than we've lived here, which is 20 years.  I wonder if they have taken over and reopened the Gala abattoir.  Calling Shotts 'borders' does seem weird.  I feel a nosey coming on  :thinking: