The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Fruit => Topic started by: Stereo on June 07, 2015, 11:52:36 am
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Planning some planting for this winter. Idea is to have half an acre and run 50 or so hens around it in rotating nets with the house at the centre. Couple or 3 Shropshire sheep to mow when it needs it. I want sweet fruit for the family all year as my boys eat loads of apples which cost us a fortune,so maybe 1000 eating apples a year. 3 or 4 cooking apples a week would be nice and the rest for cider. Also thinking of some plum trees but I may grow these in the veg garden as hedge plants or something.
What sort of numbers am I looking at for each type as I'm guessing 20 trees or so total?
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Fruit trees take a while to build up volume of produce. When I moved in here I planted 5 apple trees and three plum trees. One of the plum trees produced 25 plums last year, absolutely delicious red ones that were eaten straight from the tree. The other two and most of the apples have not been so successful. I'm hoping for a better crop this year.
My 4 rasps, 2 blackcurrants and 1 gooseberry bushes are brilliant! And the one of each white and redcurrants will hopefully be good this year too.
Since there is just me, with extra for friends and relatives when there's a surplus, this number of trees/bushes is fine.
Hope that helps
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Hi Stereo, I'd be looking for a good variety of trees known to be suited to your local conditions. I'd also be looking for some early and some late varieties, to extend the fruiting season, and a good mix of eating / juicing / cider and cooking apples, plus maybe a plum tree or two.
When we planted our wee orchard, we had excellent advice and service from Adam's Apples (http://www.adamsappletrees.co.uk/). It's worth giving them a call just in case they answer with "Hello, Adam's Apples, Adam speaking!" :roflanim: .
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I second Adam's apples as a source.
There's lot of ways of going about this. Here there was an established orchard of a half dozen or so apples and some other fruits..but all neglected. I heavily thinned and pruned the mess and took aou a couple fo overcrowded trees. What's left provides plenty apples.. but all at once; though I get aroudn some of that by stewing and freezing.
If the cost of trees isn't off putting then you could plaigerise part of my plan...I put i a whole row of trees I;m training as espaliers along a 200yd fence line. Actually one side with a mowable gap between for easy access both sides. That has some 25 apples, 5 pears, half a dozen cherries and the rest gages and plums. It is a slowish process training them into their layers and fans (for the stone fruit) so I added a couple of extra plum trees and half a dozen dwarf cherries.
I'm actually now thinking of adding 20 more cherries and another half dozen pears into a spare area..just because it'll take time for good cropping from the rest. But last year was the third year with the espaliers and i got about a half-dozen apples from each tree... a whole selection of early, middle and late season varieties. I'd expect that crop to double this year and again next year and again the year after... 2-3 dozen per tree. And when properly complete as the framewok I plan each tree will be 3-4 layers about 14 foot spread
The good think about espaliers is that they are easy to spray and pick from.. crop heavier than you'ld think, make an attractive fenceline when flowering and don't take up much room. So you get heaps of varieties into an area.
You could get even more adventurous with things like step-over apples around flower borders and veggie patches too.
Don't forget to look into apricots - goldcot being a cold hardy variety, possible peaches and nectarine if you live more south.
You can also think about some kiwi growing into trees and even grapes.
As the resident nutter I always suggest you stick some walnuts, sweet chestnut, filberts and almonds in too. If not for you then for your descendents.
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Lot's to think about. We've got some big SC trees up in the wood so plenty of them although I was thinking of planting a stand to coppice for timber which will probably benefit my descendants more than me but no point moaning that my forefathers didn't bother to do it if I don't do it myself.
I like the idea of fruit bearing fences between veg beds. We are just working out how much veg we want to plant for our own use and maybe some to sell at the gate or even feed surplus to piggies.
For an orchard, what sort of rootstock is recommended in terms of mowing or grazing under the trees. I would hope not to have to take a vehicle in there and leave it to sheep and chickens but I've got a friend who has the big trees (M25?) and she says it's a bit of a pain to harvest and prune etc. Maybe it would be better to grow cider apples on big tree and pick them up when they fall and for others, on fences? Definitely will be doing plums. We had a tree when I was a kid and there was nothing tastier in the world.
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https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=359 (https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=359)
lots of roostock choices above.
Just to add... pears very under-rated. eat too many apples and get the sh1ts... can eat pears all day long.
Also remember thers plenty of pear and plum varieties - it's not just conference and victoria :) . And pear juice is super too.
Cheap trees early in the year from lidl and the like are limited in variety but way cheap.. so consider getting those as well as your special order options which will cost more.
Just to add more to think about.. consider medlar (not that i care for them but you might), quince, defo if you can a black mulberry, a fig or three if you have a good site for them. And if you're as insane as I am then lemons, grapefruit etc but it's a pain dragging them in and out of winter quarters - big pots get heavy!
And to add to soft fruit options beyond the usual currants and gooseberries and blueberries and cranberries there's also honeyberry, kiwi &grape I mentioned before, passionfruits, all the hybrid raspberries.. jostaberries etc. And for the dyed in the wool nutter frost tolerant varieties of pecan (for your grandchildren?) etc
Knock yourself out with this link: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/plantorders.html (http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/plantorders.html)
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I know Shropshire sheep are often touted as suitable for grazing areas with trees, whether forestry or orchard types, but I know a couple of people who've tried it and they were not impressed. The sheep will nibble the tips of young branches, even if they don't bark the trees themselves, as my Badger Face will. Locally we have the Marcher Apple Network which will give advice on which varieties do best. You may have something similar in your own area. Some varieities will ripen in August, some not until December - don't forget you'll need a dry, frost-proof, mouse-proof store. In this area damson trees were planted in the hedgerows - they flower 3 weeks before apple trees and give the bee colonies an early boost of nectar so the colonies are strong when the orchards flower.
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I'm just in the midst of planting my orchard area.
Adams Apples gives you a great description of what you need for apples to narrow down varieties and for over 25 trees was giving a discount.
Half an acre is 2000 sq meters. You plant apples out at 5m spacing - means a 50m x 40m space has room for up to 80 trees, less space for the chicken house etc.
There's some awesome apples to choose - Beauty of Bath, Orleans Reinette etc and some exciting apples for ciders.
Don't forget some crab apples, whcih can be used in cider, but also pollinate all types of apple - and to plant the apples next to suitable others for polination.
In addition, plant some Italian Alder amongst the orchard trees - it is nitrogen fixing, so will help your crops.
Can I just add - bamboo is a cool idea as well - the dead leaves area at the bottom is a brilliant home for insects and chickens will love scratching for them
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Those cheap fruit trees from llidle are they going to grow into full size trees? Would they take a lot longer than grafted trees?
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The cheap trees from lidle are still grafted and as per the other thread it's the rootstock that governs size.
The lidle/aldi B&M etc type trees tend to be limited varieties of oen or two of the more popular types. The advantage of someone like adam's apples is that he has the knowledge to advise varieties for your part of the country. Not that that should stop you sticking a few cheap ones in as well. Indeed i plan to add to my cherry and pear numbers with some cheapo lidl type trees this winter.
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I'm not going to bother with apple trees. There are loads of apple trees near main roads if you look, the theory is decades ago someone threw an old apple core out the window.
Pears, plums, are my two main interests.
I would love some citrus maybe nectarines but I don't want to have to move them every frost. What else can be grown in S, Wales?
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We grow Mirabelles, which are absolutely delicious and crop well every year.
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The real questions are whether you can actually sell anything or whether it's for own use..'cso there's only so much you can eat and folk generally don't want to buy low quality fruit..so commercial growing is a serious business.
Knock yourself out with this link.. an amazing selection might well grow in S Wales
https://www.agroforestry.co.uk/product-category/plants/ (https://www.agroforestry.co.uk/product-category/plants/)
I do move my citrus into winter quarters..and yes they get heavier every year.
Apart from the usual apples, pears, plums (several varieties) cherries, gages, medlars I;ve got here I've also got an apricot, peach (neither has borne yet) hazel, walnut, sweet chestnut, almond, monkey puzzle (yes they have edible seeds too), pecans, hickory nuts... but those nut trees will probably not bear in my lifetime. There;s soft fruit bushes of course.. everyhting from blueberries through honey berries to jostaberries and currants... but with all that sort of stuff it's a question of whether you can protect it from the birdies..much as the cherries and the wasps on the plums and damsons.
In the west country they are successfully growing tea, you could also consider grapes, kiwi, passion fruit and everything I've forgotten - blackthorn for the sloes (but I rip them up after all the punctures), elderberry, rosehips, blackberries.... it's endless.. Oh, how about a strawberry tree they grow in west Ireland? And never forget the figs!- the sexiest fruit you can grow.
As for your disdain of apples.. well go look at some of the varieties available that you can't easily buy - heritage russets, juicing apples...it all depends on your market and micro climate.. theres even folk trying to grow their own dates.
In my madder past I've grown bananas, figs, grapes and pineapple. I've tried unsuccessfuly with the bread fruit, avocado and sapodilla and lychee (yes in greenhouses although the banana spent the winter in the dining room|)
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I'm not interested in selling, only for eating for my large family, extended,
But the seasons are so short, I'm interested in freezing the excess. Hope it will last until the next harvest.
Freezing locks in goodness, I know it's not as good as fresh it's watery and not as good texture, but the goodness is still there, and what's important to me is that my fruit has no pesticides and that it hasn't been picked before its ripe then spent weeks being transported and stored so that it LOOKS ripe on the shelf.
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I suggest you look at it the other way around... what's fresh long season.. as in early rhubarb, storing apple varieties and bletted medlars for the season's end. look at dried fruit options too and possibly bottling fruit or your leccy bill is going to be huge. Grapes are fairly late season too.. dessert, juicing , wine. Figs are super fresh but obviously can be dried too as can apple and pear slices. Gooseberries freeze well as do plums and gages and stewed apple and pears.
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So much depends on your climate. I wanted variety so we have:
On walls: Figs, apricots and peaches (peaches have had a great season, figs are grabbed by the wasps as soon as they ripen but are amazing)
Sheltered positions: Almond, persimmon
Then in various orchards or open areas cherries (sweet and sour), gages, plums and damsons (could also go with bullaces), apples (probably about 25 varieties), pears (4 varieties), quince, mulberry, medlar (only used for jelly really but can be kept), walnut (patience required), sweet chestnut (ditto) and hazelnuts
Soft fruit: Raspberries of various varieties, blackcurrants, white currants, pink currant (not convinced by that - lots of top growth, not much fruit), red currant and a couple of gooseberries
We've also planted 2 acres of vineyard which will start to fruit in two years time (or rather will be allowed to fruit) - that's a longer term project - as well as three vines for eating grapes.
The main reason we went for so many apple trees was because we drink a lot of fruit juice so we've got the crusher, press and pasteuriser so we can produce loads of apple juice which lasts for ages once pasteurised. If you are going to try and keep apples for eating throughout the year, you need to pick your varieties carefully so they store as long as possible along with some that are read to eat early. Otherwise you could end up with a glut of apples that have all gone wrinkly by March and you end up with a six month window of nothing decent to eat.
We are also very lucky to have a warm site so the peaches and apricots can blossom early and ripen in time (peaches in particular which we're eating now - apricots can cope with a shorter season but do blossom very early).
You also have to consider predators. We have planted 15 cherry trees but have yet to get more than the odd cherry because the birds have them all early - and this year pigeons stripped all the early leaves from the middle of the trees too which knocked them all back. So you might need to net trees and soft fruit. We're in Kent and virtually all the commercial crops are now grown under cover - all the amazing Kent cherries are from glass houses, polytunnels or at the very least netted. Apples are easier to protect but I did notice that a lot of ours have been attacked by birds already which then lets the wasps in.
Most of our trees were planted the first winter we moved here so 2 1/2 years ago - the soft fruit kicks off quickly but this is our first year with a few decent apples on each tree and the walnut, sweet chestnut, persimmon, mulberry, quince and most of the gage/plum types things are yet to produce anything. In the case of the plums I think that was weather related but the rest take five years plus to fruit.
If you can find a local nursery with a good variety of fruit, that helps. I've bought from two local places here - mostly Keepers in Maidstone who have a huge variety of all fruits and will advise on any area of the UK but clearly know this area well and Victoriana which are just up the road from here but have a more limited range (but had some apple varieties Keepers didn't do - along with the almond tree which is doing surprisingly well).
H
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Edible Forest by Martin Crawfield is an excellent way of growing forests to eat. We have based our orchard on much of his input - Have a lot more to plant particularly nut trees
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I suggest you look at it the other way around... what's fresh long season.. as in early rhubarb, storing apple varieties and bletted medlars for the season's end. look at dried fruit options too and possibly bottling fruit or your leccy bill is going to be huge. Grapes are fairly late season too.. dessert, juicing , wine. Figs are super fresh but obviously can be dried too as can apple and pear slices. Gooseberries freeze well as do plums and gages and stewed apple and pears.
Good suggestions but I still like frozen.
A good commercial freezer doesn't use that much power if you add even more insulation. Plus timing is perfect, it's off all summer when it warmer and would use more power. At the end of the season when I fill up the commercial freezer with excess fruit the weather is getting colder anyway. By he time it's full the average temp in my barn is not much higher than zero anyhow.
Sometimes when it's really cold the unit hardly has to work at all.
By the time it starts to get warmer the next year my freezer has almost been emptied and it will be off for months until we fill it up again at the end of the season.
Freezing suspends the nutrient loss, it suspends the goodness depletion it is the best way of preserving and also the easiest and least time consuming.
I know it's not as good as fresh, but it's the next best thing over the hungry gap of winter.
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There are several things to consider, realistically you will not manage to have fresh eating apples all year round but depending where you are and what varieties you plant late July - late April should be possible.
You can either go for a lot of interesting varieties or go for a couple of established varieties that give you a longish season. Although sheep sounds a good idea unless you plan an orchard on vigorous rootstock (M111 /M25) trained as standards you probably have to factor in the frustration of your sheep eating some of the nice new growth.
A couple of considerations:
*For best results start with maiden trees that you prune yourself into the desired shape, although this means it will take at least 3-4 years before you get any fruit. Sounds like the best plan would be to go for a bush or half standard form on M 26 or M 106. You could of course opt for two year trees to speed this along but a) they are more expensive and b) might not establish as well as quickly
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* If you are in an area prone to late frosts look for hardy trees and avoid early flowering varieties that are not frost resistant.
* If you are in the wet west of the country look for varieties with some resistance to scab
* Make sure that your trees if self sterile have suitable pollination partners.
* If you want cookers you could go for a dual purpose variety (Belle de Boskoop for example) which is also a nice eater.
* Some earlies only have a very limited shelf life one example of it is Beauty of Bath, which also has the unfortunate characteristic of dropping it's apples very readily other like Discovery, Miller's seedling and George Cave stay on the tree but again do not store long.
* Some mid /late season apples to supplement the early varieties to consider are Adam's Pearmain, Jonagold and Pinova
* For cider I would again opt for dual purpose varieties unless you want to plant trees with fruit that are inedible and only for making quality cider (Dabinet, Tremlett's Bitter etc.). Some good dual purpose varieties to consider are Tom Putt, King of the Pippins and Katy. But this depends on how serious you want to take the cider making, I have made reasonable cider ( although with variable drinkabilty of some batches) from cookers (Grenadier) and neighbours windfalls.
* You could of course go for local varieties that have stood the test of time.
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Once mature the trees will yield probably around 60 kg of fruit on average, likely more, so assuming 150 gram per apple that would be 400 fruit per tree at least. So with 35 trees you would be well covered ! for your requirement. Of course this assumes proper training and maintenance (fertilizer) and grass free for the at least the first 5 years and possibly thinning of fruit.
My short list for say 35 trees on M106 or M26 trained as bush or half standard would be:
Discovery 2 trees does not store well but a nice early
Katy 5 Trees , good juicer
Belle de Boskoop 3 Trees ( as a cooker and late eater).
King of the Pippins 5 trees ( dual (triple) purpose, eater/ cider/ cooker)
Tom Putt 5 trees (dual , eater /cider)
Adams Pearmain 5 trees eater
Jonagold 5 trees eater
Pinova 5 trees good disease resistant eater
Good luck with the orchard project and send me a PM if you need more advice. I agree with an earlier post Adam's Apples provides a good service and trees.
DDAngus
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Waht, no russet?
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Stereo ,
Where do you live , I live near Ammanford South Wales .
I may have two seven year old ( from Aldi ) plum trees that you can have if you feel like digging them out . They are supposed to be self fertile Victoria plums on a semi dwarf stock , but to be on the safe side I got two. They've flowered these last two years but the flowers did not survive the local sharp frosts enough to produce fruits.
Digging them out should not be difficult at all as the biggest is only seven foot tall and the smallest is about five feet tall & growing in a very light soil .
If that's no good to you , Pershore egg are one of the most prolific plums I've ever come across . Where I use to live two 8 yr old Pershore's responded well after a summer pruning , autumn & spring manure feeding across the root system and also giving a liquid manure feed through out the year . They gave up well over 20 stone of massive sweet juicy plums between them & to prove it wasn't a fluke they kept on doing it for the next five years we were there.
I had to shore up the branches with a lot of 7 foot 4x4" fence posts as they were so heavily laden .