The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Primitive Sheep => Topic started by: verdifish on May 01, 2015, 11:48:27 pm

Title: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: verdifish on May 01, 2015, 11:48:27 pm
As its says on the tin ,all things Heb related !!! Breeding,Genetics,pics,diversification ,even heb horn crooks,basically the heb thread !!!!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 02, 2015, 01:28:25 am
Well done verdifish.  I'm in  :thumbsup:

So to start, how has everyone's lambing gone this year?  We have had more ewe lambs than tup lambs, and more singles than usual. In an average year we expect two thirds to have twins, one third singles, and we've never yet in 20 years had any triplets.

Those who keep multihorned Hebs, what sort of percentage of eyelid problems have you had?  We had two tup lambs with one bad split and one minor split, which is about typical for us each year.  No problems with the ewe lambs. One weird thing - lambs with eyelid problems tend to be amongst the first born each season.

It would be good to be able to put together some statistics.  The difficulty is that many keepers of multihorned sheep of all breeds don't like to admit they have any eyelid problems, but I know of no breeders who never have any, and I think from current evidence that the incidence is pretty stable across the board.
Each multihorned breed society has rules and regs about not breeding from sheep with eyelid problems, but there is absolutely no firm evidence that it makes any difference at all, just people's thoughts and experiences.  That's where some data would be so helpful.
For us, we have noticed that two sheep with perfect eyelids can produce lambs with splits, and ewes with splits (can't use tups with problems) can produce lambs with totally perfect eyes.  This is a bit of a soapbox topic for me  ;D


Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: verdifish on May 02, 2015, 04:56:09 pm
Well we've just got back from the rare breeds sale at thainstone with 6 new Hebs so very happy ,we bought all the hebs available does that make us greedy ? Lol suz also got 3 national bee hives with all the kit needed for £43 now that is a bargain ????????????
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: trish.farm on May 02, 2015, 05:13:27 pm
can you explain the eyelid problem FLEECEWIFE.  Never seen this or heard of it.  Don't keep Hebs, but just interested to hear what it is!!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 02, 2015, 07:07:09 pm
The Split Upper Eyelid defect is something which is made far more of than it should be !!!

It is somehow related to the multihorned gene, so occurs in multihorned Jacobs, Navajo Churro, Manx Loaghtan, m/h Hebrideans and m/h Shetlands.  There are a few other multi horned sheep around the world which also have a tendency to show this trait.

It can be seen at birth as somewhere between a small notch and a wider split of the upper eyelid.  Sometimes there is a tuft of eyelashes, and very very occasionally the cornea may be damaged.  I think it's thought to occur in about 6% of multihorned sheep, but I'm not sure if that's the correct figure, nor if it's accurate, as breeders don't want to admit their animals have the trait.

I don't think anyone was aware of it until the RBST was set up and a student did some research into it, and into the dominance or recessiveness of the multihorned gene (her conclusion was incorrect we now know)  Anyway, it suddenly became a huge issue, and I think was partly responsible for multihorns plummeting from 60% of the Hebridean national flock to about 6%.  In recent years that percentage has crept up slightly to about 8-9%.

No research has been done in Britain into how the split eyelid is related to the m/h gene, but everyone has their own ideas, which are handed around like old wives tales.

The only significance of the condition (called SUED) is if it causes welfare problems for the animal.  This will only happen if the split is severe, which is very rare, and if this occurs then a couple of stitches at the vets will cure it.

We don't use tups with splits, partly because they tend to be associated with very poor hornsets, but also because they are so greatly frowned on by the HSS - also breed societies for the other breeds involved).  We have however used the occasional ewe with SUED, which is where we get our observation that badly affected dams can have m/h lambs with perfect eyelids.  Much greater statistical evidence is available to show that parents with perfect eyelids can produce lambs with splits of all degrees.

I don't see the matter being resolved, until maybe the Hebridean Sheep Genome is mapped.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 02, 2015, 08:41:47 pm
What were the hebs costing at Thainstone ?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Coximus on May 02, 2015, 09:16:24 pm
I have 1 with a split eyelid - 4 horns - She throws good lambs and has not yet thrown another split eye, its not a problem for her and other than that, which I consider minor cosmetic - she is an amazing animal - good mother, eats little and holds conformation, no foot or mastitis problems - just a blemish, and as Flecewife says - can be fixed with stitches by the vet (who has even offered to do it when shes been over). I would only not breed from one if she had it severely, or had thrown a severely split lamb.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: verdifish on May 03, 2015, 01:50:45 am
What were the hebs costing at Thainstone ?

We paid £210"for 4 ewes with 2of them with ram lambs at foot .so jd say fair prices!!!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 03, 2015, 07:24:44 am
Seems like fair trade - ewes registered and lambs registerable ?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 03, 2015, 09:24:11 am
Here is an old leaflet i acquired which explains Split eyelids pictorially
In the Hebridean society guidelines Category 1 and 2 are acceptable in tups and 1, 2 and 3 acceptable in ewes. Cat 3 is a fault in tups and cat 4 is unacceptable in both
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 03, 2015, 10:16:59 am
It was agreed that Cat 4 ewes could be used in one's own flock if desired, just not to put them through the marts.  The HSS can no longer 'deregister' any Hebridean sheep, because of European legislation, including those with white spots.

However, I have a couple of points where I am unhappy about this leaflet.

One is that, as I have said before, it is not based on sound scientific investigation; because we can't use these animals, particularly tups, we cannot also study the inheritance and incidence of the condition.  Without a worthwhile amount of data collected, we cannot show statistically to what extent the condition is hereditary.  We know it occurs in only multihorned sheep, but beyond that we have no facts.  Given the current situation, it is unlikely we will ever be able to do this research, hence my comment that we need the Hebridean sheep genome to be mapped.  All we know for sure is that it pops up sometimes in multihorned sheep of all breeds.

Another aspect of the leaflet, and the Society's approach, is the first two categories, 1 and 2.  I can find no difference between the two, yet one is psychologically marked down as less desirable (in spite of being said to be 'acceptable').  Some say they can spot a type 2 eyelid defect, which is supposed to be a 'break' in the colour of the upper eyelid.  Even if this is identifiable, which to me it isn't, what possible affect can that have on the welfare of the sheep?  There is no evidence at all that it's part of the SUED condition.

There seems to be no agreement between societies for multihorned animals about what qualifies as a 'notch', no standard to stick to.  A type 4 can be horrible, or have no detrimental effect on the sheep at all, but would be better eliminated because of the very occasional welfare issue.

But before we can do that, we have to breed animals with the condition to discover its inheritance.

So it goes round and round.

I don't really want to make this a major topic of discussion, because it gets people's blood up and also makes more of the condition than I think it deserves, and we have seen in the past that this can affect the percentage of multihorns in the national flock.  Multihorned Hebrideans are in such a minority that really there are not high enough numbers to select heavily for or against one trait.






Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: kanisha on May 03, 2015, 10:21:44 am
Just curious what is understood to be the inheritance of four / multiple horns versus polled or two horn genetics?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 03, 2015, 10:23:43 am
The multihorned gene is dominant over two horned.  It's a bit counterintuitive til you think it through.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: kanisha on May 03, 2015, 10:25:12 am
I was intrigued by the comment in the paper that both four horned and  polled could show split eyelid has split eyelid in polled sheep been a problem in the breed?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 03, 2015, 11:23:12 am
FW i think the leaflet was from about 2008 - I suspect the information available / debate has rightly  moved on

- just really put up to show the different categories of eyes  - i had asked for the leaflet initially as i was having difficulties with the type 1 & 2 which isn't that easy.

 Its a difficult one i reckon it should really be about animal welfare - if its a bad split  / notch and affecting / infecting the eye then i would suggest it should be culled / not bred from / or indeed stitched. If its anything else then its up to the individual as  to what they are happy breeding from in their flock
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 03, 2015, 11:48:04 am
I was intrigued by the comment in the paper that both four horned and  polled could show split eyelid has split eyelid in polled sheep been a problem in the breed?

In Hebs, truly polled sheep are extremely rare, but are genetically multihorned.  Other breeds of sheep which are polled will not have the multihorned gene.

We have had 2 or 3 truly polled Hebs, all of which have had perfect eyelids.  It's difficult to tell with lambs if they are polled or they're going to have scurrs, which can appear after quite a while, and here they've been sold by then.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: kanisha on May 03, 2015, 12:35:13 pm
Thanks Fleecewife, was just pondering the inheritance and if anything could be gleaned from  how and when it appears. I have zero interest in the politics of hebs however the genetics intrigues me  :)
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: dst015 on May 03, 2015, 01:00:14 pm
Well we've just got back from the rare breeds sale at thainstone with 6 new Hebs so very happy ,we bought all the hebs available does that make us greedy ? Lol suz also got 3 national bee hives with all the kit needed for £43 now that is a bargain ????????????

Sorry to digress here but £43 for 3 national bee hives is an absoulte steal!!! they're about £300 each where i've been looking!! Utterly in awe of that!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 03, 2015, 02:14:34 pm
FW - back to your original question re split eyelids - our  mix of lambs this year only contained 2 4 horned both boys one nice and smooth the second with a slight notch on one side (it was born about a week later than the other). The notch although we like the mother will be an eater the other one we will see how he develops
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 03, 2015, 04:19:15 pm
Yes, there are so many other aspects to consider, as well as horns, aren't there.

We do the same, any obvious problems, castrate and into the meat queue.  The rest (plus any we couldn't catch at banding time  :-[) grow on to 16 months, at which time we decide if they're meat or worth trying as sires.  We tend to run any promising ones with a couple of ewes before we sell them as breeding stock, to check fertility or any other breeding problems.  Some years we get no keepers, the most we ever had, back when we had a much bigger flock, was three keepers in one year, of the multihorned, which we found amazing  ;D  No wonder it's hard to find a good m/h tup !!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 07, 2015, 07:05:53 pm
So the two Heb tup lambs we intended to band proved impossible to do within the time limit.  Between us we've banded quite a few lambs, although not on the scale many of you have, but these lads just weren't co-operating. One had the well-known retracting peas, tiny little things way too small to be held by the ring; the other had one big (by primitive standards) and one retracting pea, so he's not done either. We tried three times, on separate occasions, then decided enough was enough.  Too late now.  It was only to suit our management plan, so not really important.
How embarrassing  :-[

By contrast the single HebXShetland lamb had nice big co-operative Maltesers, now nicely trapped and due to fall off soon.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: pointer on May 14, 2015, 10:34:49 am
Hi all, not used to primitive breeds but this year have some HebX out of blackface ewes. We'd usually dock the tails of our blackface lambs, but I know it can be different with primitive breeds - any thoughts on docking these cross lambs?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 14, 2015, 11:33:15 am
Hebs are members of the Northern Short Tailed race of sheep, although their tails are longer than many such as Shetlands and Soay.  So it's part of the breed description that registered Hebs keep their tails long - shortening the tails could be seen as a ploy to hide a less than purebred animal. 
However, wethers often have their tails docked when they are ringed.  They're never going to be registered obviously, and docked tails makes it obvious when handling which are ewe lambs and which are wethers.

I see no problem with docking the crosses if it helps your management.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: SteveRat on May 17, 2015, 10:01:04 pm
This year we had 13 lambs from 8 pedigree two horn ewes = 162%. All lambs two horns.

A couple of tricky presentations (one front leg back and one back legs first). The most difficult was one ewe who's teats were blocked.  With a couple of visits from the vet we got one teat working - but we are still supplementary bottle feeding her smallest lamb.

6 ewe lambs and 7 males so a fairly even split.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: SteveRat on May 17, 2015, 10:51:49 pm
Re: identifying wethers from ewe lambs.  We put the yellow tag in the right ear for female and left for males.  Makes identification a lot easier.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: fsmnutter on May 21, 2015, 04:45:49 pm
Re: identifying wethers from ewe lambs.  We put the yellow tag in the right ear for female and left for males.  Makes identification a lot easier.
Ours are the other way round, yellow on the left for females LOL
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Womble on May 21, 2015, 04:57:50 pm
So what age are Heb lambs usually sent away for meat then?
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: verdifish on May 21, 2015, 06:37:08 pm
So what age are Heb lambs usually sent away for meat then?

Now there's a question that you'll get 20 different answers for . Here 8-14 months
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 21, 2015, 07:13:37 pm
We take a couple before xmas at about 6-7 months you get about 8kg ish of meat boned out - not really economic if your selling on but fine and tasty for the house we then run the rest to the summer / autumn so 14-18 months before the grass finishes meat weight 14 - 19 kg of meat boned out. Really just depends how much grass you have it you want to let some fields rest before winter then take them earlier
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 21, 2015, 07:14:31 pm
Only 18 more answers to go  :roflanim:
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Womble on May 21, 2015, 07:21:51 pm
I know, I know. I just wanted to ask because we missed one of our Manx/Shetland cross lambs with the dreaded rubber band, so I reckon we'll send him away early with the Zwartbles rather than having the hassle of keeping him entire over the winter.

Going by your figures Big Light, that's a fair loss on the return, but I think we'll take it on the chin. Better that way than worrying about him jumping fences all winter!
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Fleecewife on May 21, 2015, 10:22:56 pm
We leave nearly all our Heb tup lambs entire, then send them off at 16 months.  Several reasons we've chosen this age, but mainly because they have made condition after the winter (15 - 22 kgs deadweight), they haven't started heating up for the breeding season, and we need the space when we take the next generation off the ewes at 4 months.  All the tup lambs live in with the stock tups.
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Big Light on May 22, 2015, 06:50:13 am
We have a couple of shetlands whichwe cross with the heb which we use for the early lamb to fill the freezer the cross shetlands are a bit heavier than the pure about 10kg ish of meat
As for loss not really if your  kill and butcher cost is about £57 you will find most of the weight is in legs and shoulders which you should get a premium for but before Xmas the input should be perhaps a couple of pounds if that in medicine and some fuel so you wont make a fortune but far cheaper than the shops if its fot your self you could also do whatever processes you are happy doing to make it more economical
Title: Re: The Hebridean sheep thread !
Post by: Womble on May 22, 2015, 07:44:20 am
Ah sorry, I meant loss as in the difference in deadweight sending this year compared to next. I'd rather not even think about financial profit / loss!  ;D   I'll leave it there on this thread though, as I don't want to detract from the Heb discussion.