The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Jamie12 on March 30, 2015, 12:16:05 pm
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Had a difficult birth last night, large tup stuck in mum, head out and leg out. Manages to get it back in and correctly position but had already called for a vets assistance. Pulled one rather large lamb out eventually, unable to revivehim. Poor ewe is very sore and down, given pain rrelief last night and alamycin today.
Vet was an absolute a&%e as well.
I'm so gutted, so many what ifs and totally beating myself up. Haven't tried to get a spare for her as she seems so down. More experienced shepherds are telling me to get her one, I just don't think with what she's hone through that its fair to shove a lamb at her :'(
Now I've got a twin bearer who has a prolapse hanging out when she gets up, but it goes back in,
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:hug: :bouquet:
We all get days like this. Don't dwell on the sad stories, there'll be more good ones than sad ones.
If you still have the dead lamb, you could show it to her and see what her reaction is. If she clearly wants to mother it, then it may be that a lamb will give her something to get well for, and make her recovery more speedy. If she's disinterested, then you may be right and she needs peace and quiet to get over it at her own pace. Personally I will always try to set a lamb onto them, because I genuinely think they do better with something else to think about. But she's your ewe and if your gut instinct is telling you different, you do what you think is right. :hug:
IME, the prolapse will get bigger and start to stay out. so you'll have to keep a close eye on that one. It's not a big deal to fit a spoon or a harness, and she'll lamb fine if you do that, but of course it's generally held to be a bad idea to keep such a ewe on for another lambing. :(
It will get better, it really will. I promise.
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I feel much better watching my healthy twins charging around, I shall go show her the lamb before its taken away. Her insides are fairly torn so she will be marked to go, its unfair to breed from her again I feel.
Shall I fit a prolapse to the other ewe anyway, even if its gone back in? She's been lame twice since purchase, so she's already on my maybe going liist. A bad lambing will seal her fate.
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I know exactly how you feel. :hug:
Had to pull a big, back feet first lamb last week. It lived about 10 minutes but I could see there was nothing I could do for it. I left it with the mum and next afternoon my neighbour brought a spare lamb, skinned the dead one and dressed the foster. Straight away the ewe started talking to it and accepted it completely. It really did help her.
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Awww, I'm sorry to read this Jamie. You did all you could though, and you didn't dally about calling the vet either, and that's a good thing. Chin up, it will get better :bouquet: .
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So sorry :bouquet: heartbreaking. As feisty said not all bad news it will get better :thumbsup:
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Poor ewe isn't interested in doing much, is it a bad idea to try adopt other on?. She still seems sore.
Ewe prolapsing has a spoon in and is in on her own so fingers crossed!
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Keep up the AB and pain killer , if shes really poorly then she may not want or be able to take a lamb , she needs time . You have suf x mule ewe lambs yes ?? can I ask how much food their getting grass , buckets , nuts ??
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For you Jamie12 :hug:
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Dont worry too much, it happens to everybody :)
You could try giving her another lamb and just see how she goes, if she doesnt want it then just rear it :thumbsup:
You did start with a flock of ewe lambs, wich are bound to have more problems than experienced ewes, so dont worry too much if you have more problems this year and next year you are bound to have less :thumbsup:
I had 16 ewe lambs to the tup this year, 11 got in lamb and the mule ewe lambs have been fantastic, the charollais cross ewe lambs have been alot of trouble though, I just have some nice fat charollais culls for market next week so always a brightside :thumbsup:
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The highs of lambing are euphoric and the lows are real lows. You re right to focus on your 2 healthy twins, which won't fail to make you smile. Then put it behind you, learn anything you can take from it, and focus on the ones yet to come where you can still make a difference. In my experience it feels pretty rubbish until the next healthy birth, when things start to feel better. How many more do you have to go?
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Ewes were in a large field but of poor quality grass, hay wasn't introduced until they came inside. They went inside on the 14th of march, split into twins and singles. Singles are getting just over half a bucket between 18 split twice daily, twins are getting half a bucket split twice daily on the advice of a local Shepherd. Access to water at all times.
Ewe died this morning, relieved as she is no longer suffering, but kicking myself as I'd contemplated having her shot yesterday when the lamb was collected. At work I have no issues with deciding there and then what to try to save or put it out its misery as quickly as possible.
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:hug:
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Don't best yourself up. I had similar problem a few years ago, ewe got gangrene in end due to bad vet and helper (long story) but if she hadn't died I would have advised thinking about shooting. Learn from it and focus on the happy lambs as you can't change anything.
Ref prolapse, if it helps I have a ewe who has a vaginal prolapse and it seems to be linked to when she is having triplets. I got a harness ready to put on but the lambs must have moved and it happened less and less. I made it through the last 3 weeks without interfering and then she had a healthy set of triplets. Another ewe did similar in previous years but no problem when only twins.
Someone told me that putting harness on can encourage them to push and make it worse but I think it has to come down to watching them and making decision based on common sense and gut feel plus what you feel more comfortabLe with. You will debate over things, try something, then depending on result do same as in or try something else. It is a steep learning curve looking after sheep.
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You did your best, my dear and no-one can do more. Sheep, as anything under your care, can be a heartache as well as a joy. :hug:
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Scotsgirl.... I had an experienced friend help, mum is convinced she has damaged the ewe as was being a bit rough. Not convinced she is as experienced as she would think, next time it will be my experienced hayman with 40plus years or my other friends mother!. We live and learn.
Prolapse ewe has a spoon in and seems contented, though she does have mucous showing.
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Sorry to hear your sad news :hug:
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Sometimes folk's egos can get in the way when asked to be the "expert". That's life. Don't beat yourself up - you made the best decision at the time. In hindsight, and we're all wise after the fact, you might make different ones in future - just use the experience wisely. If you hadn't tried, you'd never learn anything.
:hug:
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I know now how that feels we lost 2 of triplets yesterday. The ewe is looking better today but if is so upsetting. Don't beat yourself up about it
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Sorry but half a bucket means nothing in terms of amount need gms , the reason I'm asking is a very large single and a prolapse at the start of lambing worries me . what is the rams breed ? what C S are the ewe hoggs ??
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We are busy lambing at the moment, ewes have had no concentrate at all just a lick bucket and some of our singles are struggling to.
Best advice I can give is if you think you can't lamb it then call the vet or experienced Shepherd and Dont keep trying to lamb it yourself while you wait.
We've had a shocker today...quickly realised it wasn't going to come out, called vet and it took an epidural and two people to eventually get the dead lamb out. Backwards, dead and stuck. Ewe is sore but have skinned her lamb and put another on her which she loves. Sometimes giving them a lamb perks them up no end .
Learn from your experience and you'll be a better shepherd for it :hug:
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Two ewes weren't too over weight, condition wise they were okay.
Just had a nice big tup lamb born to my Hogg who looks like she was carrying an elephant. Got her tied up as she's not keen.
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A " lick bucket " is just concentrates in a different form
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Lick buckets come in two basic types. One type is feed - contains protein and starch as well as sugars, minerals and vitamins, and others (which our vet calls 'boiled sweets') are basically solid molasses with minerals and vitamins in. The former type is the same as feeding concentrates, yes. The latter is not, and is ideal for ewes in the last 6-8 weeks as they can get what sugar and minerals they need without much in the way of risk of producing oversize lambs.
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If you are referring to CRYSTALYX then 12% protein plus urea to encourage eating of more forage
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In fact there are some buckets which have no protein at all; Mole Valley do some, as well as some with protein and some that have real feed value.
Crystalyx red and black buckets are 12% protein, as you say. However, that is not the same as a 12% concentrate, as the amount ingested is much lower. On average a 22.5kg minitub lasts 20 ewes 3 weeks, so each ewe takes in approx. 6.4g of protein per day. A ewe on 500g of 18% concentrate is getting 90g protein per day.
The licks which are feeds, and of which it is true to say they are concentrates in a different form, are such as the Dallas Keith ones. Their datasheet includes the ME (metabolisable energy) for each bucket.
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Back to the concern about prolapses and large single lambs... whilst one knows one is not feeding enough if the ewes are thin, the fact that the ewes are not carrying excessive condition is not, I am afraid, a reliable indicator that they are not being overfed. Some ewes, and Mules are particularly prone to this, will put all spare energy into their lambs. So I regret to say that an adult Mule getting cake and carrying a single is quite possibly making an overlarge lamb. It's a harder thing to get right with a hogg that's carrying a single - she still needs some intake for her own growth and maturation, as well as for the lamb and for milk production.
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I am going through just that internal mental debate sally.
Was looking at a group of 25 hoggs today, all scanned as singles.
On poor PP, a life-line bucket, and occasional bit of hay, I think they have had two small bales in the last few weeks. . . . mainly just to keep them quiet.
It's a fine balance between a fat hogg, a big lamb, and a bad birth. . . . . . . . and a skinny hogg, a small lamb, an easy birth. . . . but feck all milk. . . . .
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Personally I think, if I wanted to tup hoggs, I'd do what a some of the Beltex breeders are now doing and use a Shetland tup. Easy lambing, lambs not too large to tax the ewe, lambs come out running and looking for the milk bar, are hardy (so can withstand some early neglect ::)) and persistent ;)
Ewe lambs are easy to sell, males make perfectly reasonable fat lambs.
I would definitely not use a Suffolk or a Texel on a hogg.
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We ve found a corn cob bucket, made by strathclyde I think, it's a yellow bucket an got propyl glycol in it amongst other traces. a very useful bucket at this time.
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Ewe lambs are easy to sell
To who? ??? (genuine question)
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But even using a shetland tup on shearling welsh mules is no guarantee of easy lambing.
I've made the mistake of giving feed buckets too early and having big lambs needing help birthing.
My neighbour joked I'd let his texel tup in for a dirty weekend. They're bigger than his pure texels.
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Ewe lambs are easy to sell
To who? ??? (genuine question)
Me, for one! Anyone wanting sheep that will be hardy and produce good fat lambs. Especially anyone wanting nice fleece on 'em ;) :spin:
Seriously, commercial farmers like this cross. The Beltex confers great conformation, the Shetland hardiness (especially feet) and more lively lambs - and a wider pelvis than a pure Beltex ;), the supermarkets want smaller lambs with great conformation.... What's not to love? ;D
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That's interesting Sally. All I see in the fields around here are Texel, Beltex, Blackie, Mules and the occasional Suffolk tup.
P.S. Want to buy some mad loaghtans? ;D
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That's interesting Sally. All I see in the fields around here are Texel, Beltex, Blackie, Mules and the occasional Suffolk tup.
You're probably right - but it would take quite an experienced eye to distinguish a Shetland X or 1/4 Shetland commercial ewe from one that didn't have a bit of primitive in it. If I get a chance, I'll try to get a pic of some of the part-Shetland commercial girls we have, along with some that don't have any Shetland in the mix - they really don't look very different.
P.S. Want to buy some mad loaghtans? ;D
Twice a day every day at the moment, I find Pricket and her Shetland x lambs, and I think how much I like my Manxes, what good mothers they have been and are, and wonder whether I might get some more...
So the only issue is how many sheep I have - I already have 16 lambing this time, 5 ewe hoggs to join my little flock next time, and two ewe lambs out of 2 lambings this year so far that look like I'll want to keep them on... I was only supposed to have 20... :innocent:
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Personally I think, if I wanted to tup hoggs, I'd do what a some of the Beltex breeders are now doing and use a Shetland tup. Easy lambing, lambs not too large to tax the ewe, lambs come out running and looking for the milk bar, are hardy (so can withstand some early neglect ::)) and persistent ;)
I can't understand this choice when the Charmoise exists and will do all the shetland does and produce an excellent fat lamb
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I am going through just that internal mental debate sally.
Was looking at a group of 25 hoggs today, all scanned as singles.
On poor PP, a life-line bucket, and occasional bit of hay, I think they have had two small bales in the last few weeks. . . . mainly just to keep them quiet.
It's a fine balance between a fat hogg, a big lamb, and a bad birth. . . . . . . . and a skinny hogg, a small lamb, an easy birth. . . . but feck all milk. . . . .
You could have a look at Eblex Better Returns go into Breeding and right at the bottom breeding from ewe lambs