The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: farmers wife on March 21, 2015, 05:50:03 pm
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Outdoor raised so luckily little overheads using Joel Salatin methods. The food is expensive though - I do buy in bulk.
Possibly 50 eggs per day. so 350 pw max.
What price point am I looking for as I have looked at Riverford/Abel & Co @ £2.30 for 6. Found a direct farm seller £1.70. Sainsburys organic £1.90, Clarenace court £2.15, Waitrose free range £1.59.
Another concern is the salmonella risk. Assuming they weren't vaccinated (I need to check this) I want to be able to sell these with confidence. If I could supply a quality cake baker then they would ask for a lion mark. Has anyone got the true facts or recommendations on this.
Any recommendations on the direct sell without the hassle. Im not on a road so not going to be able to sell at farmgate.
Even though it is organic we have not yet got certification from the association for the farm and my other half is concerned using this word puts up barriers. Is it advisable to only use the word in describing the feed?
At 350 per week I need to shift these pretty quickly as a back log is just going to cause mayhem!
Any feedback?
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Big difference between selling at the gate and through a third party. Any kitchen is going to need a stamp I believe and same goes for selling through a shop. I believe your choices are selling at the farm gate, delivering to the end customer for their personal consumption or maybe a stall? Not sure on the last one.
As to organic, I wouldn't use it until you are certified. Even then I don't think you'll get a huge premium without serious marketing.
Price? Not sure. I would be thinking I would be looking to charge £1.50 to cover the feed premium over my current £1.20. Much more and I'm not sure I would sell all mine. You have to remember that most customers haven't looked into it in as much detail and just want free range eggs.
Well done on the Salatin idea. I plan to get this going this year just need to find a cheap caravan chassis to build a house on.
In your boat I think I would set up a facebook page and maybe a blog. Explain your methods and why your eggs are far better even than most organic eggs. Let them know that they are supporting something really good and try to get an egg round going? It does mean a delivery day but if you are not near a road....If you can get 30 locals to take a dozen a week, it shouldn't be too bad, especially if you have a village where you can sign up a load of customers.
Also need to think about what you do when you can't supply if they stop laying etc.
Good luck.
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Agree with Stereo. You need to find a way to sell directly to the end consumer because shops and other businesses wouldn't legally be allowed to take them. I did sell some to our local pub last year to use on their menu and they didn't have a problem with it but I took it as their risk rather than mine. I also sell some to a lady I know makes for farmers markets with them which I think is dodgy ground but again I'm assuming the risk is hers rather than mine.
I wouldn't go anywhere near claiming organic without the registration. I tell people that I use organic feed but I just claim free range officially which doesn't require the registration.
I sell my chicken eggs for £1.30 per half dozen and duck eggs £1.50 per half dozen. It doesn't cover my costs but I need to clear them. I could possibly charge a little more but buying from me is more hassle than buying from the supermarket so I need to clearly undercut them.
I vaguely looked into registering as an egg producer (lion mark, graded eggs etc.) and spoke to our local farm shop. His eggs come from vaccinated stock and I'm not going down that route so I decided not to bother. I mostly sell by word of mouth at school (I have young children and lots of the other mums want 'healthy' eggs) but don't have anywhere near as many eggs as you - I peak at about 2 dozen a day.
H
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I can't help with all the queries but I do know you cannot claim organic unless certified organic but a website explaining your management methods would be a good selling point. You cannot claim free-range either unless you fit the criteria but the bar is pretty low for that anyway. Can you not just test for salmonella if they've not been vaccinated? Might have to do it regularly but again, a selling point on a website.
We have a smallish egg producer who sells at work-he basically brings in boxes of eggs and uses an honesty jar (he says he is organic but I've not checked). Probably about 50 boxes a month at £1.20 per half dozen. I guess he sells elsewhere and it seems to fall under farm gate rules as far as labelling is concerned.So that might be part of an option-but you sure have a lot of eggs!
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Thanks for the feedback.
[/size]When I was talking about Organic I meant that I shouldnt bang on about it as there is a lot of ignorance and people go up in arms saying its a con and a load of rubbish. Instead of banging on about organic - perhaps harp on about pasture raised, natural, GMO free, nature etc ie key words that dance around organic.[size=78%]
[/size]I'm not interested in third party as that would cut into the profit. I would consider the lion mark once I have found out more. I need to speak to the vet re: salmonella. The risks are extremely low but I need the confidence that some idiot isn't going to come running to the press with cap in hand. I want to be confident that my risks are as low as they can be.[size=78%]
[/size]£1.20 for 6 is far too low I am looking at £1.80 - £2.00.[size=78%]
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I think you'd be extremely lucky to get that much for them - I live in the 'rich' South-East of England and people wouldn't pay that much for eggs from me if they can get them more cheaply from the supermarket. If they're buying directly from you, they know you have no middle men so they're looking for cheaper than supermarket. I'm not sure how you could justify charging more than a free range supermarket egg? You'd have to have amazing branding and a big story to tell (like Clarence Court who specialise in the coloured eggs, I think) - and if you're trying to communicate that further afield, that in itself costs money.
I don't perceive any negative associations with organic but it's just illegal to use the term until you have the certification which is why you should steer clear. If you are considering getting certified, just look into the costs carefully - I believe it's hard to justify as a small scale producer.
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Forget organic. What the customer wants to know is that your eggs are free range, not battery farmed and most important of all, LOCAL!. 2 quid for half a dozen eggs in nuts and the sort of price you only usually see in posh farm shops where the producer is being charged a hefty commision so has to whack the price up to cover it. We can sell plenty of eggs for £1.50 a half dozen which seems to be the going rate around here. Isn't it a bit daft to be producing so many eggs without an outlet for them lined up and ready? Is there a local market where you could have a stall once a week maybe? Though as I can make out 350 eggs a week sold at 1.50 quid for six will net you a total of £87.50 so you don't need to rack up much in the way of costs to be doing it for nothing.
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I am not on the scale of you and am getting about 8 or 9 eggs a day at the moment. I sell to work colleagues and friends/family for £1.50 half dozen. During the winter was struggling to meet demand, but starting to even out now. I actually sell my duck eggs for the same which I think is a bargain but means I can actually sell them as they are not as popular. My buyers care much more about the "local" and "well cared for" elements rather than other labelling I could use.
Good luck with your mission
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We sell for £1 a half dozen at end of lane and still are not competitive. Someone nearby does it for 80p and there's a local big egg producer who sells his wait rose free range rejects for 75p. Our girls are proper natural living hens with bags of space etc. But if I started trying to sell eggs for more than a £1 a half dozen I'd soon be on huge omelettes breakfast dinner and tea. Amazes me how much the price varies around the country
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I don't perceive any negative associations with organic but it's just illegal to use the term until you have the certification which is why you should steer clear. If you are considering getting certified, just look into the costs carefully - I believe it's hard to justify as a small scale producer.
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[/size]We are a medium sized farm - the whole farm is going organic not just the chickens. We are following Joel Salatin & permaculture so hopefully get some publicity. We are using the sale of the eggs to bring in traffic & local awareness for food.
[/size]I will talk to the OH about £1.50. Absolutely no lower that would be a lose maker - I am keeping logs of spending so far with the feed to get them to layers, cost of birds, transportation, making of the egg mobile, boxes, transportation, labour and overheads. I have never met any small holder selling below the £1 mark think this is ludicrous. The reason why I lose my rag with british farmers selling below production costs.
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I sell my eggs for £1.30 per half dozen. I don't make profit on them but it helps towards feed and I don't like to see them wasted. You also need to factor in if your birds are POL now in 3/4/5 years time how will you despatch of them and where do you draw the line if their egg production goes down? I think maybe a little more thought should have gone into it before buying 50 layers and then working out what to do with the eggs... 350 eggs a week is serious amount- that's 58 half dozen boxes!
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One thing's for sure. If you want to make a profit you won't still have the same layers in 3/4/5 years time!
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This is what I meant- hence why commercial farmers change their hens once they hit 53 weeks. So you've got to factor in reduced production past the first year and/or renewing hens every 12 mths.
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Certainly going to be difficult making a profit at it with those numbers.
What sort of birds are you looking at farmers wife?
It might be worth looking at pure breeds? Maybe some with a local connection or different breeds laying different coloured eggs for a little added interest and to justify a higher premium?
I don't know how much you've looked into this so apologies if i'm going over something you know already..
A point worth looking at here might be the egg supply throughout the year, especially if you have a regular customer base and don't want to lose them.
If you're breeding or rearing your own then you'll need to stagger your flock to ensure a regular egg supply.
Looking at it roughly, with a standard hybrid layer, for your 50 eggs a day you're looking at 60 birds in peak production (22 weeks of age ish)
over the next 60 weeks or so your 50 eggs a day will slowly drop to 30 eggs a day.
at this point the birds will likely stop laying and moult, so you're feeding them for a good few weeks with zero return (this is why commercial farmers get in new birds at this point).
But more importantly if you were selling 50 eggs a day at the start of the year then you now only have 30 eggs a day to sell so you lose customers.
Once they have finished moulting they will lay again, not quite as well as the first year but you should still get 40 eggs a day from them and the eggs will be a good bit bigger! :thumbsup:
Fair enough starting off with a flock of 60 birds initially to get your egg numbers up to sell but in your place i'd be looking at having a flock of 80 birds in four groups of 20 all aged 20 weeks apart.
rear another 20 birds about 20 weeks younger than your main flock.
this would mean that when your main flock is 40 weeks old and has dropped to around 43 eggs a day, your younger flock will weigh in with another 18 eggs a day.
If you repeat the process every 20 weeks you'll end up with a steady flow of eggs.
Bit of a faff but the only way I can see you can keep the eggs coming in.
If you're keeping the older birds past the moult and into lay the following year it can work the same way, just needs a bit more calculations :thumbsup:
(http://www.jimvysearks.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Coloured_eggs.jpg)
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This is what I meant- hence why commercial farmers change their hens once they hit 53 weeks. So you've got to factor in reduced production past the first year and/or renewing hens every 12 mths.
Not sure on the % down turn after 12 months but we are def not commercial farmers. We currently have 6 girls who are def older than 2 years (2 may be 4) and seem to do well producing 4 eggs per day min.
Does anyone have the info on lower production over the 4 years period?
So far I have costed £350 to the layer feed stage but not yet laying. There will be an eggmobile to be construction which the other half reckons £1000 in messing. Setting up FB page (free) website may be couple of hundred. To cost in as continual costs are feed, boxes, labels, leaflets (homemade) & a couple of simple wooden signs. No labour costs as this will be mainly done by me and the kids. I have bought the feed 1 tonne around £400. Because these chickens will be moved to fresh pasture every 3-4 days we are relying on them eating natures floor over the over consumption of grain.
Hence selling below £1.50 would be plain stupid. I have done some market research and £2 is acceptable.
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Just found this info - for small production 2 years seems pretty safe at 70%. Hopefully within this time we will have found a meat outlet as stewing chickens.
EGG PRODUCTION CYCLE
Birds usually start to lay at around five months (20-21 weeks) of age and continue to lay for 12 months (52 weeks) on average, laying fewer eggs as they near the moulting period.The typical production cycle lasts about 17 months (72 weeks) and involves three distinct phases, as follows.·
Phase 1: Small chicks or brooders. This phase lasts from 0 to 2 months (0-8 weeks) during which time small chicks are kept in facilities (brooder houses) separate from laying birds.
· Phase 2: Growers. This phase lasts about 3 months, from the ninth to the twentieth week of age. Growers may be either housed separately from small chicks or continue to be reared in brooder-cum-grower houses. It is important to provide appropriate care to the growers particularly between their seventeenth and twentieth week of age as their reproductive organs develop during this period.
·Phase 3: Layers. Growers are transferred from the grower house to the layer house when they are 18 weeks old to prepare for the laying cycle. Birds typically lay for a twelve-month period starting when they are about 21 weeks old and lasting until they are about 72 weeks old.
Production planning
On average a bird produces one egg per day. Furthermore, not all birds start to lay exactly when they are 21 weeks old. Planning is therefore required for egg production to be constant so as to meet market demand. A schedule similar to the one shown in Table 2, which indicates on average satisfactory levels of production for a flock of birds, can be used.In areas where the climate is hot and humid, commercial hybrid laying birds produce on average between 180 and 200 eggs per year. In more temperate climates birds can produce on average between 250 and 300 eggs per year. The table below illustrates a typical production schedule in a hot and humid climate.In Table 2 the age of the flock is shown in the first column and the percentage of birds that actually lay during that week of age is shown in the second column. Usually at 21 weeks of age only 5 percent of the flock lay.As shown in the third column, for 100 birds at 21 weeks of age only five would actually be laying. In the fourth column the actual number of eggs produced is shown. On average a bird produces 208 eggs over a twelve-month period, which is a weekly production rate of four eggs per bird. At 21 weeks of age 20 eggs are produced (five birds produce four eggs each) and at 22 weeks 40 eggs are produced, etc.The graph in Figure 3 shows the actual percentage of productive laying flock over a period of time, and the graph in Figure 4 shows the number of eggs produced over a period of time for 100 birds. Egg production rises rapidly and then starts to fall after 31 weeks of age. When less than 65 percent of the flock are laying eggs (71 weeks of age), it may become uneconomical to retain birds. Feed costs and sales of culled birds for meat must be considered as well as prices for eggs. In some instances when egg prices are high it may be viable to delay culling birds until only 45 percent of the flock is still laying eggs (78 weeks of age).Table 2
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Remind me, you're living in Chelsea, right? And nobody else within tem miles has free range eggs for sale at under £2?
Interested to know what market research you've conducted to convince yourself of that selling point given the feedback on here has been 100% clear that nobody else can sell for more than £1.50.
If you put your business hat on and you know your price point has to be £2 to make a profit (without including labour costs) then you should not go ahead with it unless you can afford to 'play' with the money. If you can't, you should find a better way to invest that money - and there are better returns on a thousand pounds (bees and honey has better margins and that sum would kick you off nicely).
H
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Here's (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401279/eggs-statsnotice-05feb15.pdf) the Q4 2014 report from DEFRA on UK egg statistics. They report average farm gate price for free range eggs was 97.8p per dozen down 7.5% from previous year. Hopefully your area varies!
There's also UK Supermarket Egg Prices (http://www.farminguk.com/eggs/) which shows the £2 for six premium free range brands tend to be 1) large or very large eggs and 2) marketed as a specific breed (Bluebells, Cream Legbars, Columbian Blacktail...)
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Just found this info - for small production 2 years seems pretty safe at 70%.
I don't understand what you mean by that, can you expand on it?
We currently have 6 girls who are def older than 2 years (2 may be 4) and seem to do well producing 4 eggs per day min.
What breed are these and what breed are you intending to use for layers?
4 eggs per day from 6 birds isn't actually as good as it sounds, its almost down to the level where it becomes uneconomical for egg production and commercial farms would be ready to replace birds at this stage.
6 birds are going to eat at least 1Kg of feed per day, probably a lot more than that being outside, so at £400/tonne thats a very minimum of 40p.
Your 4 eggs have cost 40p in feed alone, before you account for any other costs, thats 60p per half dozen eggs already.
I have bought the feed 1 tonne around £400. Because these chickens will be moved to fresh pasture every 3-4 days we are relying on them eating natures floor over the over consumption of grain.
Have you taken delivery of the feed already? is it a layers ration or just a whole grain?
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I know that you used to be able to buy 'boiling fowl' but personally, I can't see the market in selling 2yo hybrids(?) as there's not much on them. Plus you have to try and sell pullet eggs at the start of lay, they don't come out initially as very large eggs. If they're hybrids, they die at the drop of a hat (especially after 12 months when the eggs get bigger but the amount of shell laid down remains the same).
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I would have thought that the processing time would out-weigh any income for old hens. 98p per dozen is insane. Surely that is not correct? I cost my eggs at 10p each including feed, bedding and rearing to POL and assuming something like 200 eggs per year. Sell every egg I can get at £1.20 on the gate but that is the last resort. Mine are all pure breeds in pens with cockerels so any good eggs get offered at £1-2 and if they get to 3 days old go on the gate to clear.
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Depends how they've collected the data on farm gate sales too - I can't really imagine they've been driving round the countryside trying to spot every sign. And plenty don't even have a sign - mine's all word of mouth.
I certainly did quite detailed costings last year and I was going to have to sell at over £2 a half dozen to cover food and bedding costs so, like you Stereo, I try and use as many for hatching as possible (not very successfully this year). Part of the additional costs is feeding the male birds so might as well make use of them - oh, and the crows. Grrr. The geese (sell for £50 per breeding quality bird) and turkeys (Christmas dinners) are the only birds I think I reliably make money from and the latter were just a side line.
H
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98p per dozen is insane. Surely that is not correct?
My guess is that the average is distorted by egg producers who primarily supply shops selling their "reject" eggs super cheap at the gate. It is hard to believe otherwise. Although it is averaged across the whole of the UK so there could be some areas that are very cheap.
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I've certainly never seen any being sold at the roadside below £1.50 a dozen even in quite remote areas
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Drive round here a. Bit and you will. Never seen any over a £1
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£1 for a dozen?
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Oops :eyelashes: no 1/2 dozen
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I was almost heading to Devon on my bike there! :excited:
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I must say having been up to North devon on various forays, the roadside prices are lower there. Also I note a lot more people selling eggs at the gate than down here in the South Hams. I've never seen eggs under £1.20 for 6 in South devon in the last few years.
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My sister who lives on a fairly busy road used to sell my eggs for £1-20 a half dozen and had a fair number of sales. Then, being a bit of a PR person she listed all of my rare breeds beside the for sale box. In no time customers had doubled and the eggs were going for £1- 50 for six. (and I was making a tiny profit)
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I suspect that the defra figures are meaning "farm gate" as in the price a farmer gets at the point of sale rather than the price of actual eggs sold at his farm gate, and therefore are not referring to small producers selling direct to the consumer. There's no way that defra would be able to collect that information and they probably wouldn't want to anyway.
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I suspect that the defra figures are meaning "farm gate" as in the price a farmer gets at the point of sale rather than the price of actual eggs sold at his farm gate, and therefore are not referring to small producers selling direct to the consumer.
Aha, I think you are right. That makes more sense.