The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Womble on February 21, 2015, 09:51:31 am
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Just wondering, for those of you who use licky buckets for your sheep, which ones do you use and at what time of year?
We had the red crystalix high energy buckets out earlier in the year, then changed to the standard black mineral ones a couple of months ago to stop the ewes from getting too fat.
My question is, should I change from the black bucket back to the red one now (6 weeks off lambing), and if I do, how much should I reduce the concentrates by?
It's mainly the Zwartbles I'm on the lookout for. They're currently at condition score 3 and I'm feeding them 200g of nuts each per day plus ad lib hay, and was planning to step that up to 600g/day by lambing. (NB, for folks who've read my other posts, that's for the Z's only. The Manxs are overfat already - too many bribes paid to try and tame them up, so they're not getting any nuts just now, just the black bucket.)
I just wondered how the rest of you judge this, and what rules of thumb you use?
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I use mole valleys own lick buckets from sept onwards. Super energy. 6 weeks prior to lambing I also give them rumenco prelamber licks. They have been on adlib hay since the start of Jan. Ewe nuts started at same time. No idea what weight of hard feed. 14 ewes, 1 scoop nuts morning and evening!! I can tell if they are really hungry as they pile through the lick buckets too quickly! All are perfect lambing condition (in my eyes)! A little lean and massive tummys full of lambs. Hard feed is bumped up once lambed until spring grass comes through. They have just started lambing this week.
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Read this with interest as I have Zwartbles too, I was feeding ad-lib hay until my sheep farmer neighbour told be that I may cause prolapse so I have stopped and just put a bit out at night, now I'm a bit worried that they not be getting enough. They are about 8-9 weeks away from lambing, 4 are expecting twins and 1 triplets, they have a red chrystalix bucket and are getting 1 lb of hard feed every morning.
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Read this with interest as I have Zwartbles too, I was feeding ad-lib hay until my sheep farmer neighbour told be that I may cause prolapse so I have stopped and just put a bit out at night, now I'm a bit worried that they not be getting enough. They are about 8-9 weeks away from lambing, 4 are expecting twins and 1 triplets, they have a red chrystalix bucket and are getting 1 lb of hard feed every morning.
I had a Zwarble tup on loan and he was hard to keep weight on. After reading up about them I think they need more than 'our' breeds. Does your neighbour have zwarbles? or has he looked at yours and saying they are too fat?
My girls seem a bit fat to me.
They get about 4oz feed (he was getting about a lb), and a pile of hay just before dark, they aren't due to lamb until May. They don't have a lick yet.
Not having wintered sheep out before I'm hoping that's OK
Surely feeding hay wouldn't cause problems?
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I have some similar questions although I'm wondering more about concentrates. My Shetlands currently have adlib hay, some grazing (the grass doesn't look enough to graze to me, but sometimes they graze even when they have hay, so it must be), a mineral block, and a red licky bucket, which they are using, but not obsessively (20 sheep, 1 bucket, about 1/3 gone since December). It's just coming up to six weeks before lambing and I'm going back and forth in my mind about starting concentrates or just continuing with the hay and maybe starting concentrates after lambing.
My mentor, who is terrific, would definitely give them concentrates, but he learned on commercial sheep and is also the sort of person who always wants to give animals more treats, he's a lovely big softy and his sheep are all fat ;)
Mine are currently condition score around 2.5, some 3, except for one skinny ewe who I'm hesitant to supplement at this stage because she was similarly skinny last year (when I bought her as part of a group) and then had a very large lamb, so I'm concerned she'd just give it all to her babies and then struggle at lambing. She seems healthy and happy otherwise, no scour, good appetite, bright eyes.
I didn't scan so don't know who is carrying and who is carrying twins, although I have some guesses from belly size at this stage!
I'm leaning toward not giving concentrates before lambing and then see after that, but it would be very helpful to get any advice people can offer. Ideally I'd like small lambs that get born easily to ewes that have plenty of milk and nice fleeces, since I'm breeding more for wool with meat as a happy side effect, so am not fussed about market weights.
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Lots of answers for ewes but mine are last years 3 castrated lambs, bought to do some tidying.
They are bright and alert but there is little grass left so they are have a slice of hay a day, if I do it well spread out, two if its wet and cold. Have not managed to train my help and my husband that if they put all in one place it just gets trampled and they waste it.
I think they are about 2.5-3 but I am no expert so I have just ordered a licky from countrywide and they are getting a small amount of sugarbeet soaked when I feed them. This has turned them into right bleaters, as soon as they see me they will not shut up and carry on after they have eaten up to try and beg for more.
So when I get the high energy lick I will give no sugar beet, but how fat would you want them I intend to send them away in the next month or so depending how hard I can be.
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Read this with interest as I have Zwartbles too, I was feeding ad-lib hay until my sheep farmer neighbour told be that I may cause prolapse so I have stopped and just put a bit out at night, now I'm a bit worried that they not be getting enough. They are about 8-9 weeks away from lambing, 4 are expecting twins and 1 triplets, they have a red chrystalix bucket and are getting 1 lb of hard feed every morning.
I had a Zwarble tup on loan and he was hard to keep weight on. After reading up about them I think they need more than 'our' breeds. Does your neighbour have zwarbles? or has he looked at yours and saying they are too fat?
My girls seem a bit fat to me.
They get about 4oz feed (he was getting about a lb), and a pile of hay just before dark, they aren't due to lamb until May. They don't have a lick yet.
Not having wintered sheep out before I'm hoping that's OK
Surely feeding hay wouldn't cause problems?
I read claims on a farming forum that prolapses are more likely on hay because the heavily pregnant ewe doesn't have enough room inside for all the bulky hay she has to eat to get the nutrients she needs, compared to concentrates which give nutrition with less bulk. Not sure I completely believe it, would be curious what our resident vets say...
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Firstly why are you feeding concentrates so early? Not needed until last 6 weeks unless ewes very thin. Then yes concentrates are needed close to lambing especially if twins likey as belly can't take in enough hay to feed ewe and lambs. Good condition ewes with singles probably don't need conc.
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I have Zwartbles and they have access to a high energy bucket in winter before the 6 weeks lead up to lambing when they are fed concentrates at 18% protein building up to about a kilo per head each per day split over two feeds. These are large ewes (some very large!) scanned carrying either twins or triplets).
There was enough grass at the backend of last year such that they didn't get hay until December (lambing 3rd week in January.
Never had a problem with feeding hay ad lib.
There is variation in type within the Zwartbles breed and there are some that are leaner in build and more difficult to get weight on but on the whole would argue this isn't the norm. Mine are well fleshed and do well on the regime described.
Not that I'm defensive about the breed lol!
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I'm having similar concerns, my 30 girls have access to a red high energy bucket. We still have grass, have 18 scanned singles, six twins, 5 empty and one surprise, have just started giving them less than half a bucket of ewe nuts, though concerned they may be too fat. I'm planning to divide them up soon, if my landlord agrees.
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YOU seem to be doing ok you realise that the manx are fat and that the zw are perfect but need more feed , either bucket will be ok all should tell you approx. daily consumption so you can reduce the conc level . I keep saying its never straight forward feeding in pregnancy , I start apr 1st and have no grass - ewes cs 3+ singles or twins ad lib silage only until 4wks before then maybe twins start concs , singles maybe 2wks . Ewes cs 2.5- silage and 300 gm concs from 10wks before singles or twins , fit trips concs from 6wks , all lean singles / all twins / all trips lifeline buckets from 4wks before partially to help with a selenium and iodine deficiency .
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Jamie, with yours being hoggs, I would think you must feed the twin-bearers or you'll end up with pet lambs and hoggs with mastitis. :o
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I recently lost a large amount of grazing, so have had to sell some sheep and bring everything home to be stocked over umm 2 acres with no grazing
I am for the first time having to feed stuff!!!
They are on haylage, lifeline buckets and 300 grams on cake each per day, they are all in very fine fettle and have improved loads since coming home off the keep, the keep was pretty c*** anyway
The mules carrying charollais lambs are consistently thinner than the mules carrying charmoise lambs (which I find very interesting), the ewe lambs are all in lamb to the charmoise
The ewe lambs will all have 1 lamb taken off so that they all end up with singles as then its just much less of a bother and they are mules after all ::)
Currently attempting to put up our lambing poly tunnel (bit of a drag) to get them off the very overstocked field, lambing starts in just under 3 weeks now!
The lambs I had born in Jan are chunking up, very very impressed with the one lamb, she is a stunner!
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Wow, lots of replies - I'm clearly not the only one thinking about this!
Thanks for the vote of confidence too Shep :thumbsup: .
Jamie, with yours being hoggs, I would think you must feed the twin-bearers or you'll end up with pet lambs and hoggs with mastitis. :o
Why do you say that though Sally? Do you mean that they won't have enough milk to feed their twins if they are not fed now?
I'll be honest, I started using the buckets because our legendary tight frugal neighbour also does. I figure that if he's shelling out £20 a pop for the buckets while his gates are all held up with bailer twine, there must be something in our local conditions that means I should be doing it too! ;D
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Jamie, with yours being hoggs, I would think you must feed the twin-bearers or you'll end up with pet lambs and hoggs with mastitis. :o
Why do you say that though Sally? Do you mean that they won't have enough milk to feed their twins if they are not fed now?
Yes, that's what I mean. Unless I'm mistaken, Jamie12 has hoggs, and hoggs, being only a year old themselves when they lamb, need extra special care. Twin-bearers will need additional feeding for sure hereabouts; Jamie's land may be considerably better than ours, but as she's not that far away from me I would have thought she'd need to give at least a little cake to any twin-bearing hoggs.
It's quite normal to take one lamb off a hogg who births twins, but IME she'll still have needed fed in order to feed herself (she's only a baby herself, and needs to keep on growing too), her unborn lambs, and lay in enough milk for even one lamb.
Shortage of milk can be ameliorated by topping up the lamb, of course, but shortage of milk can lead to mastitis as hungry lamb(s) pester on at empty teats. This can - and does - happen even in experienced ewes, but is even more likely in first-timers, who don't have the experience to know how to ration their lambs, and how to keep the lamb from pestering while still getting enough feed herself.
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I'll be honest, I started using the buckets because our legendary tight frugal neighbour also does. I figure that if he's shelling out £20 a pop for the buckets while his gates are all held up with bailer twine, there must be something in our local conditions that means I should be doing it too! ;D
It's not a bad tactic - and you may be surprised to see how much of farming, even for experienced farmers, is noticing what your neighbour is doing and thinking about whether you should do it yourself!
All pregnant ewes need lots of sugar in the last 6 weeks, and the high energy licky buckets provide it. So does treacle ;)
Also, there may be local mineral deficiencies that the licky buckets can address when the sheep aren't getting cake.
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There are several different types of bucket as well as different feed blocks & nuts. Some are just a mineral lick with salt or molasses to increase the palatability and intake. These are primarily to "top up" mineral deficiencies & can help but are quite hit & miss regarding individual intakes so cant be solely relied on if you are in a deficient area.
Others are basically high energy plus some minerals eg crystalix (red buckets) sweet corn etc. These are especially useful close to lambing in eg triplets which need a lot of readily available glucose to maintain blood levels in ghe last few weeks.
The third type of bucket has a good level of protein vitamins & minerals, fats and ogliosaccarides. These are designed to promote good quality colostrum, easy lambing with feisty lambs & good milking. eg rumeno prelamber. These are best fed 4-6weeks prelambing. As a sole feed to singles on good grazing or eg hill sheep on rough grazing, or as a supplementary ffed to twins & triplets. Late lambers with good grass could use these as a sole feed too.
Forage utilizer buckets are yeast type product eg biocell which help improve the efficiency of digestion.
What to feed in the last 6 weeks really does depend on the grass available. Logically you time lambing to coincide with spring grass & feed very little. Otherwise feed companies are always happy to advise. Or choose 1 neighbour whose sheep you'd admire and ask their advice...then follow it
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We still have a fair amount of grass, and have 30 sheep to a 20 acre field. I was told by an experienced shepherd to give just under half a lb a day per head and not to bother splitting as it will only caus stress seeing as i only have a few. Obviously my twins need feed, but I'm concerned my singles will become too large also. The plan next weekend is to separate the twins into a smaller paddock across the road and the singles across to the large field (with poorer grass than where they are currently) which has the poly tunnel in, the five empty girls will go into another paddock. I haven't been able to move sooner as some fences arent great and the horse owner keeps putting the horses where he pleases ::)
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Snake oil sold by charlatans and con men!
All these products have their place but the sales boys love to make you think that you NEED them when in fact sheep only rarely do
Why do people lamb so early? Why not wait and time lambing for when the grass is growing? Then you won't need to feed anything to ewes but grass/hay
I (and many others) have lambed 600 to 1000 ewes and hogs outside in April and never fed anything but grass---for 25 years +
Mineral buckets are supplied at peak stress times to animals at risk---this means where there are known mineral problems for small weaned lambs /weaned hogs that have just raised a lamb etc
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Some people have to lamb early for movement reasons. My ewes have to lamb in feb/early march as they winter graze and lamb on HLS ground and have to move off it 31 march. This ground is right next to my house and has my lambing shelter in it. Lambing in Feb means the majority are ready to slaughter in Sept which is perfect timing for the last of the summer grass. Tup goes in in Sept and I can get on with farm and shoot work without worrying about lambs going to slaughter. Fits in really well with my grazing management.
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You know, I think Jamie and I are just a bit stressed out with the whole thing, having been on the lambing course last week.
Knowledge beforehand:
- Sheep mustn't be too thin when they lamb, or they won't have enough milk.
- Sheep should be given hay, and if they eat it, that's fine.
- Most of the time the lambs will just pop out and the ewe will instinctively know what to do. Assistance is only needed one time in ten.
Knowledge afterwards:- Sheep mustn't be too thin when they lamb, or they won't have enough milk.
- Sheep mustn't eat too much grass or hay in late pregnancy, or the extra pressure will make their their vaginas pop out of their back ends and you'll then have to cull the ewe.
- Sheep mustn't be fed too much, or the ewe will be too fat and the lamb too large. It will then get stuck in the birth canal and die.
- Sheep mustn't be losing weight at lambing time, or they'll have a toxic reaction to their livers breaking down the fat, and they'll die.
- Sheep pregnant with twins must be fed differently to those with singles, even though you haven't scanned and hence have only a hunch that they're actually pregnant at all.
- Births never happen naturally when you're not looking. They always happen at 3am in a howling gale and driving rain. You must then catch the panicked ewe so you can ferret around inside her in a gross game of uterine lucky dip to extract the lambs, which will probably be dead. If they're not dead, their mother will reject them. The ewe will then get an infection caused by your poor hygeine, and will die.
A little knowledge, without having the experience to go with it, can be a dangerous thing people! :roflanim:
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Seems to me there are all sorts of good reasons for lambing early, but "because that's what the big farmer next to me does" might not be one of them :thinking:
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Tim is right, but I don't think it works for slow growing breeds. I couldn't lamb my BWM in late April/May and then manage to get them away before the grass stops growing in November. I would need more grazing elsewhere over winter.
I use Rumenco Lifeline bucket 8 weeks pre lambing, with a teeny bit of concentrates just to get them friendly again and so I can see them up close every morning (250g if that). Plus ad lib hay all winter. Concentrates continue post lambing until the grass is up, plus a bucket maybe - trying MVF Super Energy + Fish Oils this year. (My grass has more mineral deficiencies than you can shake a stick at.)
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I use a high energy bucket in place of concentrates. Bearing in mind all the variables including the fact that I keep a different breed, have different grazing, have prolific sheep, lamb early (ish) have ewes with differing condition scores and carrying different numbers of lambs this is not a recommendation Womble. It's just what works for me.
I feed good quality meadow hay from Autumn dependent on the weather along with rumivite protein and energy wheels which helps my flock get the best from their hay. If I want to avoid flushing overweight ewes or over feeding resting rams, pubescent shearlings etc I use a high energy bucket to make sure my sheep get what they need in addition to grazing or hay.
The rams get a 4 in 1 Ram bucket in the 6 weeks prior to tupping and the pregnant ewes get a Life line twin lamb bucket 6 weeks before lambing and for about 4 to 6 weeks after lambing dependent on the availability of spring grass.
[size=78%]I have a fine sandy soil so just incase the nutrients leach from the grass or the nutritional value of the hay varies, the high energy bucket enables them to make up any energy deficit. I add water to my lick buckets and towards the end of their pregnancy when their rumens are too squashed to take in much in the way of concentrates the ewes drink the licks and take on much needed calcium minerals and easily accessible energy.[/size]
I keep a relatively curvy, thick fleeced breed who hide their weight loss very well so I check their bcs throughout their pregnancy. They often start out with a little extra condition at tupping time but lose it by the time that I am introducing hard feed. I dont feed anything like the level of concentrates that you feed as it would be too much for my ewes but I do start a trickle feed 12 weeks before lambing rather than the recommended 8 -6 weeks. So I use 2 shallow steps of increasing nutrition rather than a number of steeper increases as it suits my ewes.
If you have a nutritional plan which suits your breed and your system, produces fit ewes and good lambs then stick with it. I will never really know if my supplements are excessive and unnecessary but the ewes come through their pregnancy fit and well, produce multiple strong healthy lambs and lots of milk. So it's not worth me changing the system.
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Why do people lamb so early? Why not wait and time lambing for when the grass is growing? Then you won't need to feed anything to ewes but grass/hay
I (and many others) have lambed 600 to 1000 ewes and hogs outside in April and never fed anything but grass---for 25 years +
On the other hand, by lambing some of our ewes earlier, we get their lambs away straight off their mums, never needed wormed, never seen a fly, never even been handled some of them! No castration stress, no weaning stress, no meds.
But yes, of course, each of us has to think through the pros and cons of the different systems for our place with our climate and our breed(s).
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Loved your 'before and after', Womble :roflanim:
So yes, now you know. You are a sheepkeeper and your destiny is to always worry and hopefully not have to learn too much the hardest way ';)
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I have just re read your initial question Womble and realised that you were asking how much to reduce your feed ration by if you introduce a high energy bucket in the last 6 weeks.
Because ewes have gradually increasing nutritional demands throughout their pregnancy from placental development through to lamb growth then they should be on a rising plane of nutrition accordingly.
In the first and second trimester these demands will usually be met with grass, hay and potentially an energy lick or small amount of concentrate as appropriate. If nutritional levels are low or fluctuate in mid pregnancy this can cause the placenta to enlarge in order to allow greater nutritional support to the lamb. If feed level then increase this can lead to higher levels of nutritional absorption which can then lead to lambing problems with extra large lambs.
During the last 6 weeks when the lamb growth places the largest nutritional demands on the ewe, even a ewe with extra condition can be on a metabolic knife edge in terms of effective utilization of what is going in regardless of her BCS. For this reason I would not ever reduce my ewes ration but would either increase it very gradually while monitoring their BCS or just let it plateau until lambing if I thought they had, had enough.
I realise that the course that you attended has made you worry about the consequences of overweight ewes but as Zwartbles are longer legged and bodied than my girls they may not experience the same level of rumen capacity reduction in the latter stages and may indeed need the increased levels of feed that you listed. In normal conditions ( not pregnant, ill, stressed etc) it would take around 6 weeks for a sheep to loose or gain 1 condition score. So in the last 6 weeks of pregnancy it is unlikely that the addition of an energy lick in addition to their required ration would make too much difference at this stage.
What Does Farmvet think?
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I agree with you buffy the egg slayer. I would be more concerned that your under feeding than over womble. Your not that far away so I cant imagine you've much grass growing yet - its snowing heavily here. you can safely feed 600g till lambing. make sure its a good quality 18% ewe feed. A crystalix as well is fine. plus adlib hay.
However if your not feeding the manx & have no spring grass I would give them a lifeline or equivalent bucket. They are likely to be short of protein & minerals otherwise which could affect colostrum & milk yield plus lamb viabilty & reserves.
Stop panicking about lambing. Zwarbles & manx are both easy lambers and I doubt you'll need to give any assistance. Very occasionally you'll get 2 lambs coming together but zs usually have huge pelvic space for their size. They lamb huge texel embryos easily. Just get a comfy armchair by the fire & peak out the window with the binoculars occasionally.....