The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: lord flynn on January 22, 2015, 01:50:52 pm
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for interest:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/11355289/Chicken-wars-which-supermarkets-are-selling-bargain-birds.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/11355289/Chicken-wars-which-supermarkets-are-selling-bargain-birds.html)
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Hmm, does "British" mean hatched and raised in Britain? £2.11 for an oven ready bird, with the cost of hatching, feeding, bedding, slaughter, preparation, packaging, transporting to a central distribution centre and then to a store - surely a loss leader and if not, how on earth do they do it?
When I was growing up chicken was a luxury item - we sometimes had a chicken joint each rather than a whole bird. The colour, texture and taste was very different, though, and made a memorable meal, not just a vehicle for curry sauce.
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I pity those farmers who have mortgaged their farms to put up poultry sheds. They will be the ones taking the brunt of this.
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Average payment to farmers who have poultry sheds are 4p per unit...Yes they call them units.
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Its terrible isn't it-I refused to buy a chicken in Morrisons at xmas (bearing in mind Morrisons generally gives a better price to farmers than most others) because they were £2.50 each. I also refused to buy coop milk a while back as it was a bogof meaning it was something like 4pints for £1.
I am too wet when it comes to eating my own surplus birds, I really need to get over it-especially now I have ducks as well.
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Its terrible isn't it-I refused to buy a chicken in Morrisons at xmas (bearing in mind Morrisons generally gives a better price to farmers than most others) because they were £2.50 each. I also refused to buy coop milk a while back as it was a bogof meaning it was something like 4pints for £1.
I am too wet when it comes to eating my own surplus birds, I really need to get over it-especially now I have ducks as well.
I am a bit wet like that too.... But this is the year! I have given up crap (welfare and deal for farmers) meat..... Which leaves only what I can raise plus meat from other known sources or labeled organic/ free range shop bought meat. Surprisingly limiting.
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We only buy meat from Eversfield Organic who are local to us. Also raise our own chicken. Occasionally we might buy ham as our boys love it but it has to be good stuff and I figure we'll get some pigs soon. Only buy Riverford or Yeo Valley organic milk. OMSCO seem to still pay organic dairies a decent price so if you want the farmer to get a decent return, that's one way.
I think most folk need to re-evaluate their priorities in life. They'll go to a pub and never ask the price of a pint but will try to save every penny on a pint of milk or a chicken. Which is more important? I would much rather buy a cheaper cut of meat or mince and have organic and grass fed that spend the same on a steak with rubber fat on it due to all the grain it was fed. Better not get into the amount of flukicides now getting into conventional milk. Good if your kids have worms I suppose.
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Hmm, does "British" mean hatched and raised in Britain? £2.11 for an oven ready bird, with the cost of hatching, feeding, bedding, slaughter, preparation, packaging, transporting to a central distribution centre and then to a store - surely a loss leader and if not, how on earth do they do it?
It's either a loss leader as you say or they are coming from Thailand/Brazil or similar.
I wonder what the wording is on the packaging, "produced or packaged in Britain" doesn't mean it was raised here.
these birds in their short life will have eaten around 4Kg of feed each.
I know some of the large commercial broiler farms are currently paying £500 per tonne for feed so each bird is eating roughly £2 worth of feed.
Most of the largre companies like every stage of the process to make a small profit so the breeding farms, hatchery, rearing farms, feed mills, processing factory and last but not least the supermarket are all taking a cut out of this.
It will be as Castle Farm already said just a few pence per bird at each stage but it must be cutting very close to the bone at the prices mentioned in the article.
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its down to expectations I think. I can't remember the exact percentages but we now spend something like 10% of our disposable income on food and it used to be 35% (or something in that region of difference). But now there's so much other stuff to buy and 'have to haves'. I try and buy our milk from local shops only and I can make a joint of meat/chicken stretch over several meals, make stock etc etc.
Trouble is I like the boys ;) and find it hard to cull older ones (i.e. after 14 weeks) as they are so good looking-so I cull out the boys very early instead of feeding them. I might rethink that this year as am not selling any stock anyway and maybe get some broiler chicks in for roasters. There's not a lot on the breeds I keep-good thighs on the Scots Greys and the Minorca boys are a fair size as well I guess.
If the UK isn't careful, all our meat will be imported but the sad thing is, the majority won't care they're so far removed from the process. And I know people are hard up but it's also down to not feeling as though they have time to cook and shop around and not knowing how. So glad I was taught cooking in school (had to budget and cook 3 course meals for 4 at age 12, all from scratch)-most useful thing I took away!
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probably a bit of meat on at 14 weeks. For small breeds I generally kill and skin them. Take off the breast fillets and possibly the legs, takes a couple minutes per bird. Not much but good eating and at least get something back.
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I usually cull them out at 6/7 weeks unless they look particularly promising although it depends on size of the hatch as well. The dog and cat can have the wings raw so thats a bonus. Both SGs and Marsh Daisies are very slow to mature so a lot of slow cooking I think!
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I share the difficulty with bumping off beautiful cockerels, but if they've got to go then I prefer to eat them rather than wasting them. If I feel I like them too much, then once they're oven ready I put them in the freezer for a few months so I'm less likely to remember which one I'm eating :chook:
This thing about really cheap chicken, especially sold as quarters or joints, has been on the go for a long time now, but getting ever more cut throat. As someone else has said, most people if they don't just get a carry-out, just want something they can cook in 20 mins when they get home from work. Something chewy with a bottle of bought sauce poured over it is about the extent of their cookery skills. I honestly think that anything for the chewy part would do - perhaps the supermarkets should have a price war over TVP, or whatever soya blocks are called now, so they became the cheapest option.
I think it's a crying shame to see such cheap animals for sale on the supermarket shelves - a once living creature just a tasteless base for a sauce, after a horrible life fed who knows what to keep the price down, exported to Britain and sold off as cheaply as the supermarkets can get away with.
Growers here hopefully treat their birds rather better, although not necessarily so, but their rewards sadly now come from lowering their standards to reduce costs.
Makes you want to go vegetarian :garden:
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I agree that cheap food in the uk will result in yet more casualties (as we have seen with milk producers). Supermarkets are having a real price battle and producers will be squeezed further. The main problem as I see it is the cultural shift and expectations of plentiful cheap food regardless of its providence. Producers have already cut corners with meat in burgers and processed foods so who knows what will happens when supplies of the cheap chickens fall away. I can not imagine the uk public paying more than £ 6-8 for a standard chicken so the race is on for a new cheap chewy product that a jar of sauce can be poured over.
Is it the supermarkets or customer to blame for cheap food and plight of producers?
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I think it's just a gradual disconnect with our food as less people work on the land. Meat, egg and milk production is moving indoors and big sheds, screened by trees are going up everywhere. They don't want you to see inside and most people would rather avoid the guilt and make it someone else's responsibility.
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Checked out the £1.64 per kilo chicken at Waitrose in Malvern yesterday. Specifically mentioned "British" farmers, maize rich diet (no percentage mentioned) and availability of natural daylight (? a couple of rooflights in the shed). Chickens looked pale and rather moist compared to the "real thing" but no sign of hock burn.
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I made a point of looking at chicken in Aldi today-Scottish free range (and I think they are the only store to offer this since Hook 2 Sisters pulled out?) were £7-8. Normal chicken was about £4-5 for a large one.
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these birds in their short life will have eaten around 4Kg of feed each.
I know some of the large commercial broiler farms are currently paying £500 per tonne for feed so each bird is eating roughly £2 worth of feed.
We pay £136 for 907 kg which I believe is a ton
Our hens take approx. 7kg in 8 weeks @ 15/16p per Kg = £1.05- £1.12
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Are your sums correct?
A imperial ton is or was 2240lbs a metric ton ( which we are saddled with ) is 1000kg.
regards
smudge.casper
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these birds in their short life will have eaten around 4Kg of feed each.
I know some of the large commercial broiler farms are currently paying £500 per tonne for feed so each bird is eating roughly £2 worth of feed.
We pay £136 for 907 kg which I believe is a ton
Our hens take approx. 7kg in 8 weeks @ 15/16p per Kg = £1.05- £1.12
Doesn't sound correct Andy, i couldn't buy whole grain anywhere close to that price nevermind a milled broiler feed.
1000 Kg = 1 tonne
907 Kg = 1 old short ton
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wrong one short ton (us) is 2000 pounds
1 long ton (uk) is 2240 pounds
1 metric ton is 2204.62262 pounds
it makes a difference to both buyer and seller
regards
smudge.casper
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No it was the right one. :D
Short ton is indeed 2000lbs
2000lbs = 907Kg
Dunno why Andy is working with short tons though.
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I made a point of looking at chicken in Aldi today-Scottish free range (and I think they are the only store to offer this since Hook 2 Sisters pulled out?) were £7-8. Normal chicken was about £4-5 for a large one.
I tend to buy these, they have been regularly commented on. We raise our own mostly but sometimes if we've run short or I haven't time for defrosting/need quick etc I pick them up. I've seen them a few times 2 for £15, which if you can trust the label isn't bad for the size and quality. Since we started raising our own I've lost touch with supermarket prices a little :/ and tbh I grudge paying it even more as I look at the price and think "that's a bag of feed right there" XD
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The cost 3 chickins £10 for 3 the bit I don't get the christmas sales perth 18 cock birds dressed £15 to £20 each people going mad for these birds .Dad said to get a terkey in the old days would be 5 weeks wagies a chickin £5 to £10 pound .So why dont people do more . Cheaper feed the pork is next a leg of pork £5 pound asda.
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I'm just so glad we hardly ever have to buy supermarket meat. as others have said food now is such a low percentage of weekly budget- its got to be when there's an I pad or phone or pod or cinema style tv to pay for first. angers me when most children seems to have a mobile phone yet we're sposed to believe that genuine poverty still exists in this country. the worlds gone mad. all I can think when I hear of a £2 chicken is what conditions that "unit" has lived in. it seems so recent that cookery programmes and Jamie and hugh fw woke us up to the reality of food production and it seemed things would change for better. seems the majority don't give a stuff. we now sell our lamb for £20 less a half than we did a couple of years ago- just to get some cash back but not covering costs or anywhere near, thank god its our hobby and we get to eat properly raised food. damn aldi damn lidls and morrisons and the other vultures happy to sell any old crap, that has lived and died in misery and leaving us believing that milk and meat are little better than waste products and the people who produce it matter not- that feels better :huff:e
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Well said pay more get better qwalatey food
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all I can think when I hear of a £2 chicken is what conditions that "unit" has lived in.
damn aldi damn lidls and morrisons and the other vultures happy to sell any old crap, that has lived and died in misery
If these are indeed UK grown birds then they will have been reared under some of the strictest and most stringent welfare conditions seen anywhere in the world.
The issue of it being a £2 chicken or a £6 chicken is completely irrelevant to the welfare conditions they will be kept in.
Whether you pay £2 or £6 for it will have no bearing on how it was reared.
We in the UK are on a different level compared to most other countries around the world in terms of welfare.
These birds are certainly not "any old crap" living in poor conditions, neither have they lived and died in misery.
The supermarkets you mentioned, Aldi, Lidl and Morrisons again all work to the highest possible welfare standards found anywhere in the world.
What is happening here is a price war on chicken (and other things) between the major supermarkets.
None of them will be making any profit from this, actually they may well be, its probably the producer that is taking the financial hit just now.
Either way, they are currently selling them as loss leaders, at a low price to steal customers from other supermarkets, they are not dropping the welfare standards to reduce the costs.
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Morrisons naw own 4 farms in the north of scotland
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One of those occasions when I guess Clansman we'll just have to agree to disagree. My day job brings me into contact with food producers and farmers every day and welfare costs- simple as
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My day job brings me into contact with pilots but I know nothing about flying a plane ;D
Are these food producers and farmers you know deliberately cutting back on their welfare standards to save costs then?
Who are they producing their goods for?
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My day job brings me into contact with pilots but I know nothing about flying a plane ;D
:thinking: oo now I feel told. Fair play to you :'(
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just trying to make the point..
I get a lot of people preaching to me about how bad the commercial poultry industry is and yet they've never set foot in a commercial farm.
usually their opinion is based on a conversation with someone in a pub who once worked as casual labour for a weekend on a chicken farm 10 years ago. :innocent:
The commercial poultry industry gets a very bad press especially amongst the smallholder communities who mainly appear to base their opinions on what they 'think' or have been told its like, rather than have an opinion based on any actual fact.
It's the old "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story" thing... commercial livestock farming is always fair game for a good kicking.
Don't get me wrong, I have seen instances of bad practice, cruelty, poor animal husbandry etc on commercial farms, it does happen, however that is down to bad individuals not adhering to rules/guidelines, its never due to company policies or strategies.
I don't think the layman really appreciates just how strict the welfare standards in modern animal farming now are.
20 or 30 years ago yes, some companies did run poor operations but in todays world the supermarket is king, they rule the roost and if the producer steps out of line even slightly they will be history.
The supermarkets will NOT be cutting back on welfare standards just to sell us a £2 chicken, that won't ever happen, image is everything, imagine the press getting hold of it! "Supermarket A drops its Welfare Standards!" It would be financial suicide for any supermarket.
You made a statement about welfare standards costing money, birds living in misery and bad conditions due to Aldi, Lidl and Morrisons and suggested that food producers and farmers you know and have dealings with may be cutting back on their welfare standards to reduce costs?
So, can you back up your claims?
are these food producers and farmers you know deliberately cutting back on the welfare standards of their animals to save costs?
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youre not going to let me walk away are you Clansman- clearly the use of some amusing emoticons hasn't done the trick- so here goes
Firstly, I mentioned my association with the agricultural industry, not to claim that I could fly a Boeing 747 into Kathmandu airport, between the lowering foothills of the Himalayas, - at night, but simply to make it clear that I live, work and have always done so around farming. my father was a herdsman on a dairy farm and I now work in an on farm advisory capacity re crop nutrition I therefore do not see the business of raising animals for meat on a large scale through rose tinted spectacles. I see it for the grisly business it undoubtedly is. Easier for the general population to look the other way most of the time. and that's within the admittedly higher welfare standards that now exist in the uk.
For me, simply because a farming practice is legally acceptable, or a bit better than it was 20 years ago, doesn't make it "acceptable" not to me anyway.SO, on that point, have I seen a reduction in standards because supermarkets have gone to war over chicken pricing-? not especially, not yet anyway, but I don't think we had too much to be proud of to start with. Later I will refer again to an article featuring the concerns of Dr Tracey Jones of Compassion In world farming talking specifically about the impact on animal welfare of the chicken price war, (watch out there's gonna be some quotes) Within it Waitrose respond to concerns about them selling £2 chickens by asserting ( and I have no reason to disbelieve them) that the chickens used have had no reduction in living space - slightly less than a square foot per bird I believe- legally ok but not ok surely !
My mentioning certain cut price supermarkets is that I see them as being at the forefront of the devaluing of food. Maybe it is so that they only stock "British" meat so we can rest easy, but the meat in packs in the fridge or frozen section is only a fraction of the meat based products sold. tins of steak, chicken kievs, tuna, corned beef, salmon, ( don't get me started on the barbaric reality of salmon farming) and endless lines of product all which rely on an animal based ingredient or two. all being sold at a price that leaves me open mouthed. For another day, but already the feature of a previous post on here is the reality that anything up to half of all the worlds food is thrown away. in 2013 the institute of mechanical engineers stated that it was half. surely a chicken bought for £2 can only encourage even more waste. our Christmas goose cost us £60 =- not a morsel of that birds edible fibre was left unturned. it was roasted , boiled, curried, sandwiched, and souped ? within an inch of its life. we'd have done that anyway cos its what we do, but I do know people in my own family who buy £2 chicken cut out the breast and throw the rest away.
RIGHT i'm digressing- animal welfare and that "evidence you seek. not sure if this is evidence but I would consider it to be slightly more credible than some poor deluded hobby farmer in devon. An article was published in the telegraph very recently under the headline "Chicken Wars: Waitrose sells whole bird for £2.11"
In it Dr Tracey Jones expresses concern at the impact this price battle will have on animal welfare and specifically
" Our desire for cheaper chicken is pushing some producers to erode the higher welfare standards the UK established in 2010..... As we consume more and more chicken at ever lower prices, such economic pressure drives faster growth rates, increases the number of birds in each shed and thwarts all efforts to thwart foodborne diseases such as campylobacter"
This final point is further supported ( at least for me it is !) by the findings by the Food Standards Agency in November 2014 that " 7 in 10 chickens sold in British supermarkets are contaminated with Campylobacter... Campylobacter is not just a public health issue but an animal welfare issue too.. our desire for cheap chicken which is driving down prices is a fundamental barrier to solving this issue.. it pushes producers to use chicken breeds with higher growth rates, increase the number of birds in the shed which are bad for animal welfare and increase the likelihood of Campylobacter"
My original post bemoaned the impact of cheaper and cheaper food on the quality of that food and questioned how it is possible to sell a chicken for £2 and ensure that animal had a good life. It also stated how lucky I am to not have to opt for eating an animal that lived its life in such conditions. last week we collected 6 of our lambs from the butcher, they were born in March and lived for 10 months in the outdoors, with room to roam, treated with care and indeed affection bordering on love. my sister in law lives nearby and raises table birds in her 2 acre paddock which we swap for our lamb. god we're lucky.
in the next 50 years the worlds population is set to double and this "golden" era of limitless supplies of cheap food may not last. but for now I can only see that undervalued food, with BOGOFs everywhere, treated with such a "throw away" mentality leads to a disdain for the life of the animal.
I'm sure we wont see eye to eye on this, and that's fine- but I wont post again. :thumbsup:
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I don't know who has the right of it, but I do know that meat should not be cheap, cheaply reared or any meat animal's life cheapened. I know I couldn't rear a chicken as I would like it reared and get the flavour I would like and make a profit or break even at £2 a bird or even £6!
My birds are reared over summer/autumn on free range and have whole wheat morning and evening. I couldn't get them to weight in the few weeks that broilers take, they take 4-6months.
If I couldn't rear my own meat then I would rather eat it 4 times a year than eat the tasteless, doubtful stuff from the supermarket.
I know nothing about the broiler industry other than Hugh FW's campaign and hearsay, maybe I should find out more.
I have a feeling though that I will still prefer my tasty free range birds who have had a good life and a quick and kind end.
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I suppose it's just one person's opinion against another. Whether a bird should be raised in a closed shed with only 1 square foot each is up to the individual. I keep my hens in pens that give them 10 square meters each. Some will say this is overkill, some may say it's cruel and that I should give them total freedom. You just have to decide for yourself what is acceptable and live by it.
One of the issues I have, aside from rearing animals in conditions where they never see the light of day, is the processing. Such huge volumes go through the plants that there is bound to be suffering on a huge scale. These plants presumably have targets for successful stunning and I'm sure it's not 100% which means that thousands of birds are going to the neck cutter un-stunned. I've heard second hand tales of birds being mechanically eviscerated while still alive but don't have any real evidence for that.
The point is that when you mechanise meat production to such an extent, there will be suffering. It's the law of averages. A skilled slaughter man can act in seconds if the first stun doesn't work or whatever. He will know exactly what to do and it will be in the best interests of the animal. Machines are blind and don't care. The bird carries on down the line to the next part of the process regardless.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/-sp-revealed-dirty-secret-uk-poultry-industry-chicken-campylobacter (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/-sp-revealed-dirty-secret-uk-poultry-industry-chicken-campylobacter)
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youre not going to let me walk away are you Clansman- clearly the use of some amusing emoticons hasn't done the trick
No not at all! I like a good debate! ;D
ok, we're changing direction slightly in that now we're questioning the ethics of the process rather than how its done and the welfare issues around it.
I agree with you 100%, I would love to see table chickens reared more naturally.
we could give them a lot more space, use a slower growing bird which lives longer, allow them outside etc etc
All of these improvements we make to the system would massively increase the cost of the finished bird though.
We're in a catch 22, we currently produce huge amounts of chicken to feed ourselves at a cheap price.
If we reared these birds as we'd all like to then they would become unaffordable to all but the rich.
At that point we just move to another cheaper food source, it can't be done.
I rear Scots Greys, the excess males are eaten, they aren't huge even at a year old but they do for a meal.
I'd hate to sit down and work out exactly what the meal would have cost me, a chicken eats a lot of food in a year.
At a rough guess lets be very conservative and say at least 100g per day thats almost 40Kg in a year so in food alone its cost me at least £18ish for a bird that'll be just over 3-3.5Kg live weight
Thats me doing it at home, by the time you added commercial overheads that bird becomes unaffordable, you can buy a lot of food for what it would cost you.
I do it because I can afford to take the hit on that financially but if I were unable to pay for that food then purely from a nutritional return point of view i'd be miles better off just using the food I give to these birds to make bread etc.
Maybe thats what we need to do, go back to the days when our diet was mainly vegetarian based and any meat, even chicken was a rare treat.
I rear my own turkeys, at Christmas my family all get a large turkey each.
a fresh 20lb+ 'free range' turkey for Christmas will cost you over £100, now I'm not sure many of my family would justify paying that amount of money for a turkey, I'm pretty sure most would just go without.
We're rearing birds commercially as well as we can just now to satisfy the market/price and demand, the moral dilemma of whether we should be doing it is a whole other issue.
The Campylobacter issue is a handling problem not a farm welfare issue, its a gut bacteria which somewhere along the process is being transferred to the carcass.
Campylobacter, same as Salmonella is found everywhere, your dog/cat/budgie/shoes/garden path all have it, I'm quite sure my and everybody else birds probably have it.
We looked for it and we found it, now its a problem, Salmonella was largely ignored until Mrs. Currie proclaimed all eggs were riddled with it! :innocent:
If we prepare and cook our food properly its not an issue