The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Jukes Mum on January 13, 2015, 11:10:18 am
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I am sure that this information is on this site somewhere, but I do not appear to be able to find it!
My ewes (in theory!!) are due to lamb at the end of March.
I plan to 'Heptavac' them 4 weeks prior to lambing. Should I also worm them at this time? Or wait until they have lambed before they are put back out, or....?
Also, which wormer type should I use?
I did have a worm issue in the summer and only have one field.
Any advice much appreciated :-*
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It's usual, if worming adult ewes at all, to worm them as they lamb, as there is an increase in worm production at birth. A lot of people only worm the twin- and triplet-bearers.
Whereabouts are you? (Should know, can't remember, sorry. :-[) Up here we wouldn't expect worms to be a problem in March, still too cold, but if you are down south that may be different.
Our ewes would be getting a fluke dose and maybe something for exoparasites in the month or two before lambing - but again it will depend on your climate, ground and local conditions.
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Inject them with Cydectin 2% LA two weeks before lambing, or at lambing, whichever is convenient. It has a persistent effect so will last nearly 2 months and covers the ewes during their compromised lambing period.
Covers you for scab too.
One injection just below the ear - takes a bit of practice so have someone hold the head whilst you inject.
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We worm and fluke as they lamb. This year we're using Albex at the fluke dose - mainly because that's what we have to hand. Personally, I'd rather drench than inject :)
That's the only time we worm the ewes. We also fluke them in October, before tupping and January, when they are in to be scanned.
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Personally, I'd rather drench than inject :)
Yes, me too, but the benefits of that product outweigh the inconvenience. My lambs do much better since I started using it at lambing time (i.e. they suffer less with worms throughout the year and grow better). Also, I have to cover for scab annually so this ticks that box too.
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Oh heck, now I think I might be even more confused (it doesn't take much ;))
Sally, I am in North Yorkshire.
So reading your replies it seems
- I should have fluked them in October (I don't think fluke is too much of an issue around here though and the field is very dry.
- They should be fluked (is fluked a word?) when they are scanned (end Jan). I could use Albex (I have some!) at Fluke dose and this would cover worms as well, but not any external parasites
- They should be 'fluked' at lambing- as you say this protects the lambs, I assume that you worm the lambs as well then?
- or....Inject them with Cydectin 2% LA two weeks before lambing, or at lambing. If injected at lambing, do you do the lambs as well?
:thinking:
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Worming depends on multiple factors, from stocking density, location in the country, to weather, to individual farm conditions.
Id suggest looking at the scops website and talking to your vet and or feed store as they will be able to help you with local conditions.
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speak to your vet ..... fluke may not be a problem where you are so no need to fluke dose. As for worming adult ewes do at lambing and then that should cover them and lambs for a large part of the year. Lambs will need nematodirus wormer later. but you may not need to worm ewes again (a FEC sample would confirm this)
I too use cydectin ... I have worm resistance to white wormers here.
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I can see Cydectin seems to be available as a drench as well.
Would that have the same effect?
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I can see Cydectin seems to be available as a drench as well.
Would that have the same effect?
Nope, it's not the same strength. I mean yes, it will kill worms but it doesn't have the same persistent effect. And it doesn't deal with scab.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Pfizer_Limited/Cydectin_20_mg_ml_LA_Solution_for_Injection_for_Sheep/-49356.html (http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Pfizer_Limited/Cydectin_20_mg_ml_LA_Solution_for_Injection_for_Sheep/-49356.html)
vs
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Pfizer_Limited/Cydectin_0_1_ACU-_w_v_Oral_Solution_for_Sheep/-45306.html (http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Pfizer_Limited/Cydectin_0_1_ACU-_w_v_Oral_Solution_for_Sheep/-45306.html)
this is a helpful doc:
http://www.ecsrhm.eu/CydectinLongActing.pdf (http://www.ecsrhm.eu/CydectinLongActing.pdf)
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- or....Inject them with Cydectin 2% LA two weeks before lambing, or at lambing. If injected at lambing, do you do the lambs as well?
You don't do the lambs, just the ewes.
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I worm mine before tupping, following SCOPS guidelines on switching wormer groups and keeping them on the same field for 48 hours before moving to fresh ground. I worm a day before they're due to move from theie individual mothering up pen to the nursery shed, so any resistant worms are shovelled onto the muckheap when the pen's cleaned out ready for the next ewe.
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If the worms are resistant they will still be inside the ewe and will carry on their wormy lives shedding eggs in the faeces onto the pasture
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"Residual" perhaps?
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Maybe! I like your tag line Womble
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If the worms are resistant they will still be inside the ewe and will carry on their wormy lives shedding eggs in the faeces onto the pasture
The way my vet explained this to me is as follows.
If you have resistant worms, and you worm the sheep and put them straight onto clean pasture, then the only worms that there will be on the new pasture are resistant ones.
So the reason you put them back on the dirty pasture for 48 hours is so that they pick up some more of the non-resistant worms, which they will then take with them to the new pasture. Then there will be a mix of resistant and non-resistant worms on the pasture, and if the sheep get wormy then the meds will help.
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Yes. My point is you are not shovelling resistant worms onto the muck heap to prevent resistant worms being spread because they are resistant and therefore still inside the ewe. The action of worming them and then clearing the muck to the muck heap does not prevent resistance.
Every time you give a wormer you select for resistance inevitably and the proportion of resistant worms in the population shifts towards resistant.
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Every time you give a wormer you select for resistance inevitably and the proportion of resistant worms in the population shifts towards resistant.
So the idea behind putting them back on the dirty pasture for a bit is so that they pick up some of the old worms again, which then remain in the population and compete with the resistant worms you weren't able to kill. This competition then slows the rate at which the resistant worms become dominant. Is that right?
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If the worms are resistant they will still be inside the ewe and will carry on their wormy lives shedding eggs in the faeces onto the pasture
Cleaning out the pen onto the muckheap will mean that the eggs (resistant or not) in faeces passed while she was in the pen but before being wormed will be destroyed by the heat of the muckheap
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So the idea behind putting them back on the dirty pasture for a bit is so that they pick up some of the old worms again, which then remain in the population and compete with the resistant worms you weren't able to kill. This competition then slows the rate at which the resistant worms become dominant. Is that right?
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Exactly
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I worm mine before tupping, following SCOPS guidelines on switching wormer groups and keeping them on the same field for 48 hours before moving to fresh ground. I worm a day before they're due to move from theie individual mothering up pen to the nursery shed, so any resistant worms are shovelled onto the muckheap when the pen's cleaned out ready for the next ewe.
Maybe I am miss reading your post, but it seems to say that your motivation for cleaning out the pens is to kill resistant worms post-worming which it will not do. The resistant worms that created the resistant worm eggs will still be alive and well in the ewe and will be pumping eggs out as per normal. You are killing a normal population of eggs and there is no particular selection against resistant eggs when you throw them on the heap. Don't want you labouring under a misconception - I'm sure there are other better reasons for cleaning the pens out though!
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The main idea is that all the eggs, resistant or not, go on the muckheap and keep the lambing shed as clean as poss.
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Why not collect a few samples from a good number of your ewes and get a pooled sample tested for FEC then get a sheep vet in your vet practice to advise you ?? That way you only worm when necessary and with an appropriate wormer, you can always retest to check that it is working , check with the vet how long afterwards before retesting. Too many people worm unnecessarily and routinely giving resistance to wormers. Also make sure you know the weight of at least the heaviest ewe you intend to worm !!! Good Luck :knit:
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One thing to remember is that you can't fluke the animals as a prevention. The flukicide will only kill the fluke (of the right age) that are in your sheep at the time. As soon as your sheep goes back out they are vulnerable to reinfection.
If I remember rightly Albex is albendazole based and will only kill adult fluke.
Getting a FEC (for worms and fluke - two different tests) before you worm will tell you what you are up against.
And yes the thought behind putting back out on dirty pasture is that they get some of the susceptible worms which can then compete with the resistant worms on your clean pasture. It's often thought that resistant worms have a 'fitness cost' i.e. they are better at surviving treatment but less good at other things in life. If the susceptible worms are better at other things they can out compete the resistant worms in those areas.
For all your worming needs do check out SCOPS, really good information on there: http://www.scops.org.uk/ (http://www.scops.org.uk/)
Dans
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Hi Dans, the last I heard the "cost" of resistance to the worm was thought very low just because when a wormer class was not used for some years on farms with diagnosed resistance there was still resistance to that wormer many years later.
Has a time scale been demonstrated/established now for worm populations to revert to original type and regain susceptability to your knowledge?
Finally and most importantly where is the spell check on this thing?? :dunce:
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Hey,
I have to confess I am less 'up' on nematodes than I am fluke. For fluke you're right. I think it was in the Netherlands, they had resistance to triclabendazole (active ingredient of Fasinex) on a farm. 3 years later, after using alternative active ingredients to control fluke, the resistance was still there.
I had thought there was some reversion possible in GINs (gastrointestinal nematodes) with some active ingredients but not sure if I misunderstood now. Will check and report back :-)
And no idea about spellcheck. My chrome browser does it for me.
Dans
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Update - had a FEC count and come back all clear :-)
So at lambing, do I FEC again, or worm at Fluke dose?
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Are they indoors or outdoors at the moment? If outdoors are they coming in to lamb?
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They are out and all being well will lamb out. We have a shelter ready in case we need it (weather, bonding, problems etc).
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Ok, I would still "Inject them with Cydectin 2% LA two weeks before lambing, or at lambing, whichever is convenient."
Because a) you only have one field and b) you had a worm problem last year. Although you don't say what sort of worm you had problems with last year (do you know?). I would them worm the lambs only with a white wormer in early may (ish) to combat nematodirus.
As for fluke, that is another question - it depends on your local conditions - your vet can advise.
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Thank you.
We don't know what the worms were. A couple of them were scouring. We wondered if it was just the autumn grass but wormed them (Levacide 7.5% ) and they cleared up so 'assumed' it was worms.
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Or ... you could not bother to worm them at all, and just do another FEC at lambing or just after, as that would show you what worm species, if any, you are dealing with.
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Thanks Foobar :-)
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After lambing. You could give a splash of apple cider vinegar in their water to prevent worms ...or kill them off!