The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Techniques and skills => Topic started by: Micko on January 06, 2010, 01:51:01 pm
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Bit of a long shot....but has anyone got any experiences of moving onto their land using the cunning techniques in the Field to Farm book??
We're desperate to get the caravan onto our field so we can get some livestock on (Middle Whites, Mangalitzas and chickens) and hopefully start earning some money so any advice would be great or any experiences anyone has, especially dealing with our fantastic planning system.
Thanks loads....Micko and Dee Dee
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Oh, dear. There are a number of threads on here about planning - none of them very positive, I'm afraid.
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Thanks for the optimism Rosemary! Know you're right in what you're saying though. Had past experiences with planners (used to work for the local council) and they can be an odd lot...sometimes seem to take things personally.
I've been onto David Acreman last night who wrote the Field to Farm book (their forum) and he reckons tell the planners as little as possible and follow his methods. Having said that I've been onto a planning consultant and he's saying tell the planners everything you intend to do and totally come clean.
As soon as the weather perks up though I think we may move onto the land in our caravan and see what happens.
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I'm with the planning consultant but that's mainly based on being a former local government office who never thought that deliberately provoking them had a positive outcome!
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Ummm....that's a school of thought I'm worried about, provoking the planners possibly isn't a particular great tactic but having said that why shouldn't you be able to to follow through a route which is perfectly legal and above board?
OK, maybe it's delving into the detail of the planning rules and law to your advantage but it's a system that must have worked elsewhere.
Time will tell and I'll probably be back in a couple of months saying otherwise!
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Ummm....that's a school of thought I'm worried about, provoking the planners possibly isn't a particular great tactic but having said that why shouldn't you be able to to follow through a route which is perfectly legal and above board?
OK, maybe it's delving into the detail of the planning rules and law to your advantage but it's a system that must have worked elsewhere.
Time will tell and I'll probably be back in a couple of months saying otherwise!
A planning officers decision must comply with planning law. Therefore if your planning application adheres to planning law/guidelines it should be granted. Obviously the trick is to ensure this is the case. I have recently had my own run in with a planning officer who told me that I would need planning consent for an electric fence, my opinion differed and I advised him to check his guidlines again and also that any decision he made would be checked with a solicitor specialising in planning law (thanks Carl!). The outcome was that he admitted he had been a little hasty.
I would advise you not to provoke the planners by doing something and then applying for retospective permission. Give them a 'general' idea of your plans and see what their response is.
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Thanks for your thoughts Sanman....can't believe planners sometimes....planninng consent required for an electric fence!! Good on you for challenging it so effectively.
I'm in favour of sounding out the planners and not giving them the whole picture. As long as we're confident we're operating within planning law, however diverse it may be then I'm determined to give it our best shot.
Like idea of having the support of a planning specialist to fall back on when required....problem is finding someone with that you'e happy with and is competent in this area of planning law and reasonably priced....Carl busy at the moment??!!!
We're also exploring the posibilty of developing some of our field into allotments for local take up. Charge a reasonable and fair annual fee and I know they're in demand in our local area at the moment. Going to speak with the planners tomorrow to sound them out if this would be acceptable. We're in the green belt and maybe smatterings of sheds may not down too well but would they be classed as structures and they're not normally attached or fixed down into the ground.
Anyone got any experiences???
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see if you can get ! shipping container for everyone to use that what theyve done on our allotment,security issuses no more and its only one building. ;) you can put cages inside for individual use, if nessc
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Certainly cost effective way of getting some security on the land but know the planners are a sensitive lot and we're in the green belt so they'd probably implode with thought of it.
Have spoken with the planners mind you and they were incredibly uninformative....asking us to submit all details (drawings and descriptions) for their consideration before they would comment. What a surprise.
Mind you the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners reckon no planning consent is required as long as the land is being currently used for agriculture.
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The Field to Farm book is no good if you havent got 12.5 acres as that is the cut off acreage for the ideas according to the book. But you can rent a few acres to make up the 12.5. The rented acreage needs to be within 8 miles of the rest of yours.
Ive just been bought the book as a retrospective Christmas present and am a little disapointed it doesnt help me much unless I rent some land too.
Ah well, you live and learn
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I have recently read the book and wonder if anyone has any experience in setting out in the ways proposed. It must take alot of courage to move onto your land in a temporay home and be prepared to contest the council by being there. thinking you know your rights is one thing but risking the roof over your head if the book is wrong!!
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Hi Shaun....I know what you mean about it being a risk but seems like the only option avaaible to us. I've been in touch with a planning consultant again to look at the planning and legal implications of moving onto the land in our caravan while building our barn and he reckons it's all leggit.
We're putting our polytunnel up next weekend to get things started and then maybe next month will start excavation works for the barn and move the caravan on the day we start. The planning consultant advises that we write into the planning dept to tell them what we're doing the day we move on as they're bound to be contacted by someone complaining about the caravan. Should be interesting!!
We plan to take as long as possible buillding it and then once (hopefully) the business is set up and making money we'll submit an application for a temporary dwelling which will give us another 3 years to get better established. Mind you that could be quite a while us both living in a touring caravan with 2 mad dogs!
Will keep you posted on how the planners react in the next month or so.
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it doesnt help me much unless I rent some land too.
I have just stubled on this thread and the ref to the book Field to Farm. I am looking to progress my land to a CL caravan site, so might look at this book for some advice although the Caravan Club will be another source.
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We bought a 10 acre field and bumbled along in a naive uninformed way with a few brushes with planners - but we have now got two static caravans a shed a polytunnel and several chicken houses. So far so good. we also have full planning permission for a house on the adjoining plot which had outline permission when we bought it. I was very surprised when we built our shed at the negotiations regarding where on the field it could go. But as I work for the next door council I knew that we just had to keep talking and asking and we would find an acceptable resolution. If you can deal with the slow bureaucratic culture of the planners then you're onto a winner.
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Hi Enzyme...worth getting the book for the advice. I have found their forum pretty good as well and Dave Acreman (the author) responds to any queries which is great and really useful.
Hi Marigold, sounds as though you've got things sorted and know what you mean about the planners....taking a step at a time. Surprised you had problems with your shed though. If it's not attached to the ground and is moveable, then planning isn't required.
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Hi Marigold, sounds as though you've got things sorted and know what you mean about the planners....taking a step at a time. Surprised you had problems with your shed though. If it's not attached to the ground and is moveable, then planning isn't required.
I think some planners know less about planning than we do. I had one telling me we needed PP for an electric poultry fence!
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I've previously mentioned in other posts but I apparently need planning for a veg plot and my chicken coop.. change of use is required because it's domestic use on an agricultural field.. I am currently waiting to see if they serve an enforcement notice, I've sent copies of my CPH etc. and I'm hoping they go away now they know I'm a smallholder.. we will see.. some are tin gods i'm afraid with nothing better to waste our council tax on. I got in touch with David Acreman but he couldn't really offer any advice as I only have 4 acres, 12.5 seems to be the magic number.
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That's completely mad Helencus isn't it! As you say you've got a CPH number and at the end of the day horticulture is classified as agriculture so where's the problem???
We're actually looking at not only growing fruit and veg on our land but also as we run a landscaping business we'll be growing ornamental amenity plants for sale. It's all classed as agriculture though. Not be worth paying a planning consultant for a couple of hours to sort it out for you if you're still having problems?
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oh I have had a consultant advise me and essentially the issue is I have a few raised beds and post and netting fencing around an area that is literally directly off the back of my cottage. Imagine patio 4 slabs then field.. the fact I have put up a fence and added raised beds has led them to believe I am trying to turn it into a garden. Actually i'm not.. not a flower in sight.. said area is being prepared for the ducks we're planning to get as soon as the weather warms up a bit and I've told them if a couple of bits of wood offends them so much then i'll grow veg directly in the ground. I've even said i'll put a fence up between the cottage and the field.. still waiting to get a response... like I say i'm hoping they've found someone else to harrass.. Good luck because i've been told on no account can I plant fruit trees or fruit bushes either.. but I guess if yours is a business they'd be hard pressed to stop you.. me i'm just a little 'hobbyist' as they put it.. patronising gits..
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Hi Shaun....I know what you mean about it being a risk but seems like the only option avaaible to us. I've been in touch with a planning consultant again to look at the planning and legal implications of moving onto the land in our caravan while building our barn and he reckons it's all leggit.
We're putting our polytunnel up next weekend to get things started and then maybe next month will start excavation works for the barn and move the caravan on the day we start. The planning consultant advises that we write into the planning dept to tell them what we're doing the day we move on as they're bound to be contacted by someone complaining about the caravan. Should be interesting!!
We plan to take as long as possible buillding it and then once (hopefully) the business is set up and making money we'll submit an application for a temporary dwelling which will give us another 3 years to get better established. Mind you that could be quite a while us both living in a touring caravan with 2 mad dogs!
Will keep you posted on how the planners react in the next month or so.
Micko
Have you started yet????
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Alright Shaun.....been nearly a month so soz for not responding...been cracking on with stuff but it all seems to take ages to get stuff sorted.
The misses and me moved the caravan onto the land last weekend and got it stuck in the mud straightaway. Eventually got it out (digging, cursing and swearing) and sort of in the desired position (facing the wrong way but not precious). Been trying to sort things since....building pig ark, rotovating, rabbit fencing and loaning out an allotment sized patch thru Landshare to a local couple. Polytunnel still not yet up....maybe a project for this weekend or next but concentrating on OSB / Tamworth weaners due this weekend.
Letter has gone into the planners about us being on the land but as yet no reaction so fingers crossed. Place looks a bit of a mess at the moment so no doubt may attract adverse comment from the odd local but in early days so determined to see it through and apply for temp planning approval before too long.
Best feeling ever actually being here and can't wait for the pigs this weekend!!!!!!
Will let you know what reaction if any from the planners.
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Micko
Thanks for the update. Good luck with the pigs. I have been eating ours for the past month and they where fantastic. I still thing the biggest problem with the idea of Field to Farm is cracking the income situation. I suppose if it was too easy every man and his dog would bbe doing it. At the moment I think I will be still doing my main job and using the land I have more as a method to provide rather than to earn!!
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Been a few years now, and I wondered how your smallholding has been for the last few years, Micko. We've just made the resolution to leave our home when we buy the right land. I hope it has went well for you.
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Micko
I still thing the biggest problem with the idea of Field to Farm is cracking the income situation
Getting an Ag tied property built (F2F or not) is all about the income, and yes it's bloody hard, we're only 6 months in to our 3 year temp planning and have not even succeeded in moving on to the land yet.
We've done ok trading so far but there is a lot of work to do in the next 30 months (realistically we will need an extension i think)