The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Clarebelle on October 24, 2014, 10:34:58 am
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Hello everyone,
Last week my husband bought home a Springer spaniel which we have rehomed from a Welsh farmer who really wasn't too fussed about him. He is 4 years old and had lived in a horsebox his whole life and had had little contact with people or other dogs.
Since he came to live with us nearly 2 weeks ago I have been pleasantly surprised by his behaviour. He hasn't had any accidents indoors and has settled in well with my other two dogs and my young children.
He is doing really well, however, he will not come back when called so he must be kept on a lead even when going out for a wee. Last night when my husband was bringing the dogs back after a walk dingo passed some chickens of ours who were having a huddle and grabbed one and pinned it to the ground. Luckily as he was on a lead my husband managed to rescue the chook before any real damage was done. But now we need to break him of any interest in the chickens and other livestock. We are surrounded by fields of cows and sheep and if he wanders he will absolutely be shot. Not to mention that I don't want to have to worry about him around my animals.
Any advise for training him out of this behaviour? He is a bit bonkers as so springer s are so he has trouble concentrating when your trying to speak to him!
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Quite a talll order for an older dog that's set in his ways and a bit barny to boot. How attached is he to you? This will be easier if he sleeps in the house. If he even looks at an animal or bird you immediately say "No" in the fiercest, loudest voice you can muster. Also need to train him to come to call 100%.
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I'm not great on dog training myself but when we got our chickens our dog did the same. Especially if the chickens made any fluttering, the dog thought they were fair game. As MF has said we had to say no, fiercly, several times. It took a while before I could trust him but now, the most he does, is mingle with them to pinch their food.
Yours is so new to you. I am sure you will overcome this problem with a bit of patience.
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Can't you keep the dogs and the hens separate? I do! Even with intense training mine would have ago if they could. One of my girls clamps her jaws really tight on a flapper/runner so I wouldn't trust her - the others would retrieve tenderly with no harm done, but it would scare the hens so I just don't let them
Have you had gundogs before? Retrieving is what spaniels do as well as flushing.
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If he even looks at an animal or bird you immediately say "No" in the fiercest, loudest voice you can muster.
This. Do not allow him to even look at a chicken. Be very firm from now on. I don't have a problem with physically reprimanding a dog. You still need patience and can never loose your cool even for a second. I got my idiot spaniel at 2 or 3. He was bad and went for hens once when he was new. I hauled him on his lead, grabbed him up by scruff of neck with both hands and shook him for maybe 10 seconds while shouting at him before continuing our walk. It shocked the hell out of him, only took that one time. Never needed to do anything again. now the hens lay eggs in his kennel and he's free range with them all the time. He is 100% safe with any livestock.
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His interest in birds may not transfer to other livestock but obviously this can't be guaranteed. When I got my rescue collie he lunged like a maniac on the lead at sheep - he definitely wanted to kill them. He was way way beyond any reward based training which is what I would nearly always use. I got a lunge whip and when he went for the sheep (on lead of course) I brought it down hard on the ground just in front of him. A few sessions of this sorted it out, then I gradually increasing the length of the line until he could be trusted off line. 2 years on and he helps the working dogs bring in the sheep, until it comes to penning up - then he keeps his distance ;-)
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Maybe he only comes back to Welsh people.
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My hens free range and we don't really have the facility to pen them in and I wouldn't want to to be honest. I waited to get hens until I was somewhere they could safely free range.
Should we introduce him to the situation again? E.g. take him into the garden on the lead and every time he shows an interest reprimand him?
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My hens free range and we don't really have the facility to pen them in and I wouldn't want to to be honest. I waited to get hens until I was somewhere they could safely free range.
Should we introduce him to the situation again? E.g. take him into the garden on the lead and every time he shows an interest reprimand him?
Don't hit him. >:( A stern 'NO, and a distraction - plastic tub/bottle with stones in it. Good luck. I'd rather keep mine apart to be honest. You'll never be 100% sure no matter how well he is trained. As I said Spaniels retrieve!
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Should we introduce him to the situation again? E.g. take him into the garden on the lead and every time he shows an interest reprimand him?
Yes. He will at some point see birds again so it's much better for you to have a clear plan of when that is going to be so that it is a training exercise. Might be good to put a bird in a cage so that it won't get hurt and you know exactly when your dog is going to first have a chance to make eye contact.
I suggest you introduce some other commands like sit and lay down and start working on heel with treats so that when you do take your dog outside near your birds you have something to be working with and occupying him... The birds happen to be there, but try not to be focused on them yourself as he'll pick up on all your body language - When there's just the two of us, my dog works off my raised eyebrow or slightest nod.
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He is very new to you so don't expect too much yet. I personally would keep him away from stock until he knows and trusts you completely. Then go through all the normal obedience as if he were a young pup. Teach the 'no' command in the house as you would a pup etc, etc. He might not know any commands ..... even the recall. Assume that he knows nothing and get good basic control. Work on this before the temptation of birds. It wouldn't be fair on him to reprimand too much or to be too hard before he knows basic commands and lessons.
My father trained gundogs and always had free range poultry and so do we. My dogs can tell the difference between pheasants and hens no trouble. ;D It maybe harder for your lad because of his age and once his commands are mastered, once he knows you really well .... what you expect and trusts you, then you might have to be 'harder' with him to achieve your aim .... which in the end will be better for you, the hens and him.
:fc: Good luck
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We have all manner of dogs here, including trained gun dogs and other hunting dogs and also have free ranging chooks. The only ones that I wouldn't trust 100% are the terriers, but then I would trust them 100% with anything, once they get an idea into their heads, they are little b****rds!
My way of breaking a dog to anything, is to expose them to it lots, in a controlled situation, have them on a lead, and every time they look, pull, lunge at the chicken / sheep etc, give the lead a sharp tug and growl at them / tell them off. I do this lots until I can do the same without any lead, dog by side, walk through / near chooks and if they look / lunge etc get over the top of them, use body language and verbal tone to convince them that if they grab that bird they will get it bad.
Usually it doesn't need physical reprimand, but i've had a couple of dogs that in the end, it look a physical correction to put them right, some may not agree, but you need to know your dogs and know where the line is.
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The only ones that I wouldn't trust 100% are the terriers, but then I would trust them 100% with anything, once they get an idea into their heads, they are little b****rds!
We have a BT and he is fine with cattle, sheep and horses and will walk in amongst them. Birds however are a different story. He will chase pheasants and partridge when we're out walking fields and also when the pheasants come in the garden. When he does start chase I do shout but to no effect . And sadly his games are the fear that I have when we get some poultry (potentially next year).
It will just take a bit more time to get our BT sorted and this will be the same for your Springer. If he didn't have much interaction with things before you got him, you effectively are starting training from the start as though he was a pup.
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There is just something about terriers, it's a little voice in their head, that makes them do bad things :D
I've got one collapsed in a heap on the sofa next to me, they are great dogs, but they are prone to moments of sudden deafness :innocent:
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Every dog is individual, even between breeds. I agree with ITH to keeping the distance until you and your new dog know each other much better and the basic training is excellent before starting to introduce any livestock or birds.
I have a x patterdale terrier who will mother young chicks and hens but when they are too big she stays behind me in case they get to close and peck her ::) I had a whippet nervous of rabbits as we had an aggressive doe. In the woods she might chase one down the path but run past giving a wide berth and a bark before returning to me :roflanim: I've had a GSD who shared carrots with the guinea pig taking turns nibbling. As I said, each dog is individual. How much you can trust them comes down to training AND their individual nature. Most can be taught to leave and live peacefully together with other species while supervised but some may never be able to be left alone with others unsupervised without taking advantage of the situation.
Time will tell. It is very early days yet, good luck with him.
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Thanks everyone, he is a really nice dog and in the house he is quite good and will sit and lay down etc and responds brilliantly to my eldest daughter. But outdoors he is head down sniffing like crazy and there is just no way to get his attention. Any tips for getting through the fog of war so to speak!? Our other two dogs are a collie and retriever so we have experienced this kind of instinctual behaviour, dingo is just in a league of his own ::)
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Springers are a nose with a dog attached - same as my Brittanys :excited:
I use very high value treats due to teh high prey drive of mine - looks like at 4 years old you may have to do the same. Do you know why the keeper rejected him as a working dog? Perhaps he is hardmouthed in which case you really DO have to keep him away from your hens. I doubt he'll touch bigger livestock to be honest. They are basically game dogs - fur and feather, not much interest in anything else and at 4 his puppy curiosity won't be prevalent.
I use cooked chicken/pheasant/cheese for recall - have him on a long line to start with so he HAS to come back to you.
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The story goes that the guy wanted to use him as a stud but didn't get into it, I'm not sure he ever fathered anything. I think he just kind of got forgotten about until they eventually decided to sell him. They wanted £600 for him but got no takers and in the end they just wanted shot of him so we said we would take him for free. We have now had him neutered.
I don't know if he would have killed the chicken or not, he didn't get a chance but he does carry balls of wool around ::) so maybe he would be ok.
I'll let you know how we get on, I guess the first step is the recall
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This can be very frustrating. Just keep working at it; When he's in 'heel' he's not allowed to have his nose on the ground or pull. Keep him on a short lead with his head up, listening to you. Use treats and a short lead. You can try the 'changing direction' tactic, keep him guessing. This is going to be very waring for you because you said you have to keep him on a lead all the time... I'd get a flexible long lead, keep him on his short lead in heel, not allowed to sniff, put head down or pull, till you get to the park or wherever and then put him on the extendible lead and let him do what ever comes naturally to him.
How does he do with your other dogs? Will he come if they come too?
Multiple dogs learn quickly that only the first/best one gets the reward treat and this can be used to great effect! (rather than the "I'll just have one last sniff here - she'll keep calling anyway...").
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my terrier is very good with our hens, after one or two mishaps, so it can be done. though ours are in a paddock. if they were free range I don't doubt he would have a go if no one was looking. we use the Cesar Millan techniques with very good effect with him. it doesnt have quite the benefit with the other dogs who are set in their ways now. our lhaso apso is so set in his ways hes like concrete ::) he has been the worst bird killer of them all.
as a kid we were very close friends/dog sitters of an adorable sprocker, and she was just bonkers so I can imagine how hard he could be to train. "channel that enthusiasm" -easier said than done.
im curious to see how you got a welsh rescue in orkney? ;D ;D
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The farmer we got him from owns the farmhouse which my in laws rent in wales. When my husband moved up to orkney to join us he bought dingo up from his mum and dads house.
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I don't know if he would have killed the chicken or not, he didn't get a chance but he does carry balls of wool around ::) so maybe he would be ok.
I'll let you know how we get on, I guess the first step is the recall
Hopefully he wouldn't have killed the chicken but at this stage you just can't be sure. Mine used to love the chase but once he had grabbed hold of a chicken he wasn't sure what to do with it. ???
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In a way it doesn't matter if he is hard or soft mouthed or not (assuming here that you don't intend to work him) he just has to learn that chickens are a 'no-no'. Even if soft mouthed he will distress them, cause them to become egg bound and may encourage your other dogs to chase or pull at the bird that he is carrying.
Once he is obedient in the house and will do all the basic commands, start outside on the lawn with no hens about. He needs to know that you mean business and have his eyes on you during lessons. All really basic to start with. Heelwork on lead, go fast, go really slow so that you are only just moving, change direction, go in a circle turning into your dog. Give encouraging, calm praise. He will have to concentrate on you. If his nose goes down jerk it up with the lead. I personally don't use a short lead. T he lead doesn't need to be short because he isn't pulling and if he sniffs you can lift his head with the lead give a 'no' command if need be and then keep moving. Use treats if he is food orientated. Only do the exercise for very short periods of time .... say a minute.
You can gradually increase depending if he enjoys it or not. My lab finds heelwork boring but my Flattie thinks it's a game.
Train sit command and stay command as if he were a pup. Expect that he knows nothing. Then train him to heel off lead. If your on lead training is good they usually pick this up faster than you think. At first just give the heel command with dog still on lead but the lead dropped. If he decides to toddle off you can catch the lead and continue on lead. Tap your leg when you give the heel command. It helps to keep the dog close.
Being able to heel off lead gives you the beginning of more control over your dog. He knows that being off lead doesn't necessarily mean 'nose down and off I go'!
HTH. Think it is just the beginning but somewhere to start from. Personally though I wouldn't be training much yet until he knows you.
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Excellent advice and help with basic training there - reminds me I must do a bit more with Missy. :innocent:
Also agree that he needs to get to know you and trust you before you'll get much response but at least you'll have a longer attention span to work with than if he were an 8 week pup, and even then it does no harm to do a couple of one minute sessions a day now.
As to retrieving, my ducks used to be retrieved by Allez on a regular basis and it didn't seem to bother them, they were brought right to my open hand and I swear they had a rolling eyes resigned look about them :innocent: - but hens have a more fragile nervous system.
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Great advice on basic training, and on not focussing on what not to do until you have a good armory of things to ask him to do instead ;)
On recall, my golden, absolutely 100% unbreakable rule is,
A dog that comes is a good dog
Always a good dog if it comes. Whether you asked it to or not. Whether or not it was chasing - or worse - a chicken or even a sheep the instant before it came. If it comes to you, it's always a good dog. (And yes, even if it's on the Long Stay in a competition. ::))
What you want is that, if in doubt, ever, the best choice is to come to you. That it never even thinks if you call it, it just turns and runs to you. If you ever tell it off when it comes to you, then coming to you isn't always a safe option. As soon as you break that confidence that by your side / in front of you is always a safe and pleasant place to be, then you destroy the automatic response of coming to you when you call, or when it's worried about anything.
Your choice, but all my dogs (since the very first one, who taught me a lot ;)) have had a 100%, rock solid recall. Just saying :eyelashes:
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Your choice, but all my dogs (since the very first one, who taught me a lot ;)) have had a 100%, rock solid recall. Just saying :eyelashes:
There's a package on it's way to you with a Brittany inside it :roflanim:
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maybe teaching retrieve with the hedgehog will teach him to leave little critters well alone :roflanim: :roflanim:
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But retrievers will happily deliver a hedgehog to you, Shygirl. ;D
An old Flattie I used to have loved that party trick.
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But retrievers will happily deliver a hedgehog to you, Shygirl. ;D
An old Flattie I used to have loved that party trick.
One of my Brittanys brought them back by a leg, we had to stop her but it was difficult to get her to understand. The Leave It command was used a lot as we went past the railway carriage they were nesting under.
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Dingo bit our cat last night. He has chased him before but not taken it further than sniffing him. My husband's going to start some intensive training with him today. Fingers crossed he starts to improve
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Oh, that's not good.
'Bit'????? Just a playful grab or something more serious? Did cat put him in his place or was it a nasty 'bite'?
Wonder if he was locked up because of problems around stock etc.?
How is the hog?
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He wasn't growling or anything but he did draw blood. To be honest, I'm not sure if it was aggressive or not, it wasn't obviously aggressive but obviously far too rough for play. He has always shown an interest in the cat but hasn't gone so far as to physically bite him until last night.
The hog is still alive but hasn't moved to eat or drink so I think it might be hibernating?
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Mmmm .... hope you gave him a big telling off.
Did you weigh the hog?
He might wake up to feed tonight. Can you pop some food in, in case?
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Hedgehog - check out the British Hedgehog Preservation Society website.