The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: trish.farm on October 08, 2014, 02:05:26 pm
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After 2 years of expense and hard work trying to AI my Jersey girls, with not overly impressive results due to one reason or another, i have decided i need a bull!! Thinking at the moment about getting a young Angus next year, running him with my girls for 3 months July to Sept, then selling him. Obviously will take advice from local cattlemen when buying one but; if it is a young bull, how will i know he can do the business? Are cattle at markets or privately sold garanteed to be BVD etc free if they say they are? (i have a closed, clean small herd). How easily will i be able to sell him on? Sorry, probly very silly questions but never dealt with a bull before! He will be turned out in our watermeadows with the girls and hopefully a few calves at foot, also worried how he will react with me walking around them everyday with the dogs to check them. My girls are all tame and friendly!! Any comments would be appreciated!!
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Up here I think it's usual for the BVD status of breeding animals to be listed in the catalogue at the Mart - also whether the farm is in a High Health Scheme - you should consider Johnes and IBR as well as BVD. Not sure how you could get a guarantee - if the herd has a record of negative results going back a few years that should give re-assurance.
We've used young Shetland bulls - age about 13 months - our current bull was purchased at 13 months and went to work with gusto as soon as he was let into the females. We let him loose on the cows first, then gave him a wee break before the heifers. All the calves arrived within 1 month - so I think he got all the females at the first attempt.
We walk amongst the herd when the bull is with them - the females and their offspring are used to us and will accept hand feeding (carrots, hay). Mostly the bull ignores us, but is interested in carrots. We NEVER try to hand feed the bull - he get's his carrots tossed onto the ground. Although our bull is very placid, we always keep any eye out for him and watch his behaviour - though to be honest we're more likely to be accidentally damaged by an over-enthusiastic cow wanting another carrot and barging her herd mates out of the way.
I would not walk a dog in with our herd - the females are very conscious of dogs - we get walkers along the road
beside the fields, and the cattle walk alongside the dog-walkers shadowing them over the fence until they pass out of range.
Sue
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Thank you Sue, really helpful comments. My Jerseys have grown up with my dogs and totally ignore them, but i think i might go dog-free for the months i have a bull out! I reckon that if i get a young angus around 13 months, he wont be too big and scary, will be fine with my jerseys as they are quite small, and would sell on ok after about 3 months so i dont have to house a bull on its own all year.
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Even bulls need company - ours is happily living with some steers (born 2013) in a field away from the cows and this years calves as the young heifers are bulling already.
One started bulling at 4 months - Shetlands can be a bit precocious.
Good luck with finding a nice bull.
Sue
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I agree with Sue. We bought a seven month old bull in March 2013, used him two weeks short of his first birthday on our three cows and he got them all in calf within three days. We ran him with the bullocks over winter then ran him with the cows and calves August to early October this year; I hope he's got the four in calf (they seem settled but won't know until they are PD'd in a few weeks. )Today he went off to the abattoir - a short life but a happy one, I think.
We're collecting an April born bull in a few weeks and plan to do the same again. Although I wouldn't have turned my back on Storm, he was pretty placid and at that age, they haven't become seriously territorial (so I've read).
I was advised to check his testicles to make sure they were OK. I confess, I never did that but they seemed to work OK ;D
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oooh, feeling a bit more confident about this now!! My search for a young Angus will start in the spring!! And i will check his balls!! Anyone know any Angus breeders in Hampshire??
Do you reckon i would be able to sell him easy enough after using him for 3 months? I dont have any boys he can run with as my calves are weaned and then wintered indoors.
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Depending on how much you pay for him, it might be more economic to put him in the freezer :eyelashes:
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Have you considered hiring a bull instead? You can often get a much better bull than you would buy without the hassles of selling again etc. They are usually good health status, screened clear of major disease & vaccinated, plus good temperament & easy calvers.
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My problem is that I only have 3 cows, so the cost of hiring a bull is huge!! I also would prefer a small, young animal so I dont have to deal with a big mature bull, I dont have the handling equipment for anything big and strong! I will obviously need to TB before they leave my farm and the thought of containing a mature bull leaves me cold!! Know anyone who hires out nice friendly small AA ??
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we got our shetland bull at 6 mths and he was working by 10 mths old. we were complete novices and he taught us well. he grew up with us and is now a very placid bull and hopefully we will keep him long term as he is so quiet and chilled.
have you considered a Shetland? they mature quickly so can be used and in the freezer in their 2nd year if you don't want them - or want to change breeds when you have more experience with bulls. you could get a decent weaned Shetland bull calf for £500.
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I did look at shetland bulls as they are smaller, but an AA x Jersey is very easy to sell and prices hold very well as stores, even a 7/8 month old calf fetches a good price at the moment, i dont know how that would compare to a Shetland x Jersey. I also have the problem in that i dont keep on any bullocks etc to run with a bull when he is not in with the girlies, and i dont want to keep a bull on its own. Calves are weaned in nov at about 7 months, and winter indoors or are sold straight away.
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Just leave the bull running with the girls! Lots of farmers just leave them running, or put them back in after all pd in calf. It keeps the bulls much saner & fitter than penning them up for months. It can also alert you to problems of reabsorbing calves as the bull detects any cows that were settled in calf coming back bulling.
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hmm hadnt thought of that! Love this Forum!! God knows where i would be without it!! I will do some investigation as to demand and prices for Shetland x Jersey weaned calves and stores. I need to know that i can sell what i produce!
I move my girls around the farm on headcollars, do you reckon a Shetland Bull, (if i got it young enough) would follow the girls about?
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Shetlands are great if you are plannng to finish the offspring yourself but if you are going to sell weaned calves or stores, then I would go for a "commercial" cross. A Shetland x Jersey will make less money than an AAx or Limousinx or Hereford x even if it's very similar looking because buyers like to have some expectation of what they're buying - generally dealers don't like anything unfamiliar.
I agree that the bull will be happier running with the cows all the time but you'll have less control of calving and you'll need to have any heifer calves out before they are sexually mature - as young as four months in Shetlands but may be later in other breeds.
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Herefords (traditional type) have the reputation of being the most docile breed. Would also give white-faced calves so folks would know what they were getting. Have you considered AI?
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A friend of mine has two young (bulling heifer size) Hereford bulls for sale if you wanted to go down that route. She's base on the Staffsordshire /Shropshire border.
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Herefords (traditional type) have the reputation of being the most docile breed. Would also give white-faced calves so folks would know what they were getting. Have you considered AI?
I have AI'd for 2 years running, 1 heifer has refused to get in calf both years after 2 trys each year, Genus chap reckons she needs the real thing!! had major problems this year as i got all 3 jabbed and PRIDed etc etc, when AI day came around it was a heatwave and none of them took, so had to have them AI'd on a natural heat 3 weeks later at more expense!!
I love Herefords, have a hereford x holstien that i adopted onto one of my girls, he is gorgeous. Bit worried about the size of head and shoulders for a jersey cow?
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Just back online after a holiday.
Firstly, Jerseys can be tricky to get in calf using AI. I struggled a lot at first but :fc: have got better at it now. The main thing is to make sure they don't get upset *at all* for a good 6 weeks after insemination - and any change can upset a Jersey, they like routine.
Secondly, we have a superb Angus bull (and I'll tell you what his Jersey x calves are like in about 5 months' time ;)) - but he was subfertile when we bought him - from one of the top local Angus breeders - at 14 months old. We had the vet at him, of course, and there was nothing wrong with him at all, he was just immature. (He was acting the part but firing blanks. Sperm count *extremely* low. He's fine now :thumbsup:) So I would say you absolutely cannot bank on a youngster doing the job, no - and you would definitely need to know that the girls were in calf before you sent him away.
I haven't tried Hereford on mine but Herefords are used on dairy heifers to give them an easy first calving, so it could be a good one to use. Jerseys have a very wide pelvis so really shouldn't have a problem with a Hereford calf. (Although I do use AI for a Jersey calf for mine first time, and would use the Angus if I couldn't get them with AI.)
As to disease status, ask your vet. Up here ours recommends BVD-free for *at least* two years. You'll have other advice locally, they'll know what's what in your area.
And it's disease status that is the worry with hiring bulls, of course.
I suppose you've already checked what live bulls are around on the farms near you? When we were struggling to get Hillie in calf for her 2nd, and our bull wasn't yet working, we had lined up that we could walk her along the road to the neighbour's Whitebred Shorthorn if we needed to... ;)
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Good to have you back online Sally!! :excited:
Spoken to all local cattle breeders and sadly the only Hereford or Angus bulls that are local have a BVD problem on their farms!! My girls are free from all bugs and the calves i buy in to add on are from a bug free farm!!
Just trying to get my head around what to do next year so i am organised and ready! Delilah has failed 2 years running with AI and will be 3 1/2 years next year which i imagine is getting on a bit breeding for the first time? Everyone says she needs a proper bull! Not a genus tech!!
I would like to stick to an Angus as my AA x J bull calf who is now 7 months old is a cracking little chap, someone is already interested in buying him and his adopted mate at weaning later this month. However, if a Hereford would be easier to deal with ??? i would go down that route.
Blimey this is complicated!!
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I agree that AI is a real chore - we had no success trying to catch ours bulling and though we have been quite lucky with the CIDR Estrumate GNRH protocol, it's a real bind having to inject them and I hate doing it and so do the cows. Up here people love mating their Jerseys to British Blues and the progeny seem to be quite saleable. If you are set on an Angus watch the temperament (our local vet was telling me they had to shoot one recently because it went berserk and was attacking everyone) and don't assume a yearling bull will be small - some Angus are truly huge (did anyone see the Highland Show winner this year?) Personally I would not contemplate hiring a bull - far too much disease risk. Buy from an established breeder who does not over feed bulls for sale. It depends what you want to pay but the chap who bred our Herefords now has Angus cattle - he lives in Berkshire and his cattle have Elite Health status. It might be worth having a chat with him.
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also from our experience a 6 mth bull is likely to act like a bull not a bullock. you will need a crush for safe handling.
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Sorry missed the Charolais thread! Perhaps you've already decided!
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Hmm, have talked myself out of getting my own bull. Still undecided on whether to use neighbours Charolais. Stressing myself out with this!!!! ???
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I know Jerseys are supposed to be able to calve to just about anything, but a Charolais is a bit worrying!
What to do about a bull is a real problem for people with small numbers of cattle - we have the same problem. We kept our first male calf but of course we still have his mother, and now we have his daughters, so he will have to go soon and be replaced. Your idea of buying a youngster and then selling him on is a good one but financially it's a big commitment - Angus are much more expensive generally than Herefords, but possibly the offspring and the bull himself will sell for more. The disease question makes it worse - a real headache. I sympathise!
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Sometimes you get so you can't see the wood for the trees. :thinking:
So, looking at the facts - you've tried unsucessfully with AI, so you need to use a bull.
I had the same scenario 25 years ago when I first went into cattle. I had 2 Hereford cows and wasn't having much success with AI. So I bought a young 10 month old Hereford bull from a neighbouring breeder. He got the cows in calf immediately. I used him once more, then sold him for meat and made a nice bit on him.
I've done that every 2 or 3 years since. We now have a lot more cows and the young bulls have never missed one. In fact the last 2 bulls, having seen to my herd have then swum the river to check the cows of a neighbouring farmer. We've had to collect him at the end of the grazing season, and the farmer hasn't minded as his own bull is nothing special, he's had extra help (ie us) to gather his stock, and he's ended up with some very nice white headed calves.
The risk of importing disease is obviously important, but is minimised by buying a young bull that's never been used, from a known source. You don't need a top bull - so can get one for normal store prices, that'll be more than adequate for what you need.
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In fact the last 2 bulls, having seen to my herd have then swum the river to check the cows of a neighbouring farmer.
that is my biggest worry, that the bull escapes. ours spends all summer "on guard" at our boundary fence watching the field of bullocks on the neighbouring farm. we have 2 stock fences and a burn to separate them, but im hoping to increase the height of he fence this winter to 5 ft. he stands there even if his cows are quite far away, just watching but :fc: he hasn't looked to jump he fence, even though he could. ours are shetlands so we wouldn't be thanked at all if he got the local beef heifers in-calf.
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Mine have only done it in the first year while they were still young and thought they could serve everything on 4 legs. :excited: So if yours has so far only looked and dreamed, then I don't think he's going to be going anywhere.
Last year we had 2 uninvited bulls get in with our cows. So one of my Hereford heifers ended up with a massive Lim X bull calf that the vet had to drag out, and one of our highlands, on a different site, ended up with a Lim X heifer.
You can't spend your time worrying about what might happen or you'd never keep any livestock. :gloomy:
You just do your best to prevent the predictible, and if the worst comes to the worst - well stuff happens and it's usually not as bad as you'd feared. :fc:
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We've put up some electric fence - which seems to work at keeping the bull where we want him.
Before we had that, it was one of our heifers that jumped the fence to join him - she was very 'keen' and he made her very happy - so it's not always the boys that jump...
Sue.
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If you wanted to try once more at AI, some local farms and the AI tech we use are suggesting welsh blacks as the most fertile type you can get. We use the scratch card heat detectors too and have found they very good, come in packs of 50 but you can buy small amounts on ebay.
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I second what landroverroy says, I got a 15 month old dexter bull from a reputable local breeder and he is certainly virile. As well as a big softie, (though i don't let my little boy close to him, just in case). The bull would otherwise have become a steer so I picked him up at a good price. Also, when I went to see him he was certainly showing off his skills so I thought that was a good sign.
Although he is a bull some of our cows are around 6 and seem to dominate him and he is certainly not the pushiest of the herd. I do make sure to always pay him special attention and handle him every time I see him. So far no problems and our cows seem to be in calf now.
If the bull produces some good offspring I may sell him as a breeder but even if he is slaughtered from an economic viewpoint this was certainly the best way to go. If you are considering a bull and want to cross breeds- I assume you won't be gettinga Jersey bull!- you have to figure out what traits you want to get and go from there.
Good luck
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- I assume you won't be gettinga Jersey bull!-
Definitely don't .......... Even at a year old and not very big they can be Very unpleasant!
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The problem we've found with Shetlands - and I'm sure it's a rare breed thing - is securing a bull before it's lost its balls. Most folk with bull calves castrate early and by the time other breeders are looking for bulls ready to work, it's too late.
We've bought one from Derbyshire this year - he's got good genetics for us - born March 2014, so will be used sumer 2015 and summer 2016 then in the freezer before thirty months.
So I'll be looking for a 2016 born bull calf next - and I'll be looking in advance even of it being born :-)
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- I assume you won't be gettinga Jersey bull!-
Definitely don't .......... Even at a year old and not very big they can be Very unpleasant!
Yes, I've heard that they generally need 3 handlers when being showed!
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a definite no to the Jersey bull question!! Either Angus or Hereford. Decided against the use of the next door Charolais. Sorry to anyone who likes them on here, but i just dont like the look of them, and i am the one who will be looking at the progeny!
My big concern is handling a bull. Even if i buy in a nice quiet young hereford, run it with my girls for 2 or 3 months, i will still need to catch them up, TB him before moving him and then sell him. I have the ultimate respect and fear of bulls, just dont know if i want to be dealing with one!!
Beginning to stress myself out regarding getting these girls in calf!!! ??? :(
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If you decide on a Hereford I can probably put you in touch with a few breeders - you need to decide whether you want a Traditional (rare breed) one which are somewhat smaller, or a modern polled one - both should be quiet with nice temperaments.
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Thanks cowgirl, might just take you up on that offer. I would be more interested in the polled Herefords. Would be interested in contacting some breeders who are in my area (Hampshire) and having a chat. :)
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As far as I can find out there aren't many breeders in Hampshire. There are three which advertise in the breed journal and one only has horned cattle. Weybrook Farm Polled Herefords are near Basingstoke - you could start looking there. There is also a breeder in the Isle of Wight and one near Winchester. You need to ask about health but many are in health schemes.