The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Womble on September 16, 2014, 09:56:18 pm
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There are a couple of sales in Stirling this weekend, so we're going to go along for a look. Of course I *may* cough at the wrong moment and buy something by accident - we'll see :innocent: .
I find the whole auction thing a bit daunting though TBH. Can anybody give me the idiot's guide please? :thumbsup:
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Go to the office and register to bid before the sale - then wave your arm around a lot
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well based on my experience of 1 auction, set your limit before you start on lots your interested in.
sit on your hands till your ready to bid,
bid once (but as a new bidder you need to wave frantically as the auctioneer will ignore you)
buy cracking sheep you went for and nothing else...
although if i had as much space and as few sheep as you, id have come back from lanark with a trailer full :-D
have fun :-)
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Be familiar with which lot number is which lot and where the auctioneer is up to.
Not like OH who was bidding for the electric fencing which we had gone there for and managed to buy the little broody coop at far too high a price Then was so confused at how that happened that he missed bidding for the very large coop that I also had gone for ::)
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Have a really good look at the animals forward, in their pens before the auction starts. You can get into the pen and handle the animal gently, so you can check mouth, feet, genitals, check a ewe isn't a wether, etc and check for ease of handling v wildness. Take a note of the lot number and the order in which the sheep are being sold.
If possible, listen in well before your choices come up, to get your 'ear' in - auctioneers are a bit difficult to hear and understand. You will also get some idea of the range of prices on that day.
I tend not to wave frantically, just lift my card where the auctioneer or his spotter can see you and your bidding number, and maybe flap it around a bit til you're clocked. Once you've caught his attention, you just need to maintain eye contact and nod when necessary, without dithering if poss.
If bidding reaches your max, then drop your eyes, drop your card out of sight and shake your head 'no' when he looks for your next bid.
If you win the bidding, then hold your card up so the spotter can take a note of it.
I never make the first bid - often the auctioneer will start high and quickly drop down to what he intended to be the starting point anyway ::) If there are several folk already bidding then I let them do the initial work and I only start bidding once they start to drop out. You have to be on your toes though.
I try to keep in mind that there are plenty of similar sheep on offer, so I don't go over my max, unless there's an animal I absolutely have to have no matter the price, in which case I just keep bidding confidently and promptly til the other person chickens out ;D
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Great advice from Fleecewife. Don't bid on anything without having checked all the essentials, try to look quietly from the outside of the pen for a bit so you can see it walk round, and don't underestimate the time it will take you to check out what you like in the pens, get to the ring, get a seat and get tuned in to what is going on.
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Great advice – thanks all! I had a good chat with Mrs Womble last night about what we're looking for. Tried to emphasise conformation, breeding, teeth etc. Of course she's more interested in how many socks it has and whether it's got an appropriate name "Oooh, there's one called Bramble - that's lovely!", so we're probably setting ourselves up for a comedy of errors before we start! ;D
What about the actual practicalities then? So you register with the auctioneer / office first and get your number. Then you bid on the animals you like the look of.
So are the amounts bid “per life” or “per pen”, and are you bidding in pounds or guineas? For example, say I win a sheep at £100, how much would I actually expect to pay?
Then, who / how / when do I pay, and when do I have to collect the animals by?
I’m sure it’s all very straightforward – I just don’t want to be caught out with anything I’ve not thought through!!
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£1.05
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<<<So are the amounts bid “per life” or “per pen”, and are you bidding in pounds or guineas? For example, say I win a sheep at £100, how much would I actually expect to pay?>>>
This is one of the things you have to keep your ears skinned for :D - per life or per pen. It can depend on the mart, the type of sale, the individual auctioneer, and he can change his mind part way through. It's not always clear (Mr F came home with an extra lamb from Melton as the auctioneer, who was inaudible, changed from per life to pairs within a pen, from one sheep to the next. Anyway, she's a nice wee lamb :roflanim:)
Prices in £ or gns is in the catalogue, or ask in the office when you get your bidding number. Pedigree sales are often in guineas. When you come to pay, your guineas have been converted into £s, but you pay what you've bid.
<<<Then, who / how / when do I pay, and when do I have to collect the animals by?
I’m sure it’s all very straightforward – I just don’t want to be caught out with anything I’ve not thought through!!>>>
As soon as you've won your last animal, get along to the office - the info will have come through instantly. There are often 2 queues - one for cash and one for cards. The cash one moves much more quickly so take cash if you can.
It usually says in the catalogue when you have to have your animals out of the place. It's vaguely possible that at Stirling you can keep them there overnight, as some people have long journeys home, but I'm not sure on that one.
One little thing is to make sure your purchases don't go off in someone else's trailer. Mistakes and theft are not impossible, especially if the leaving is a bit chaotic, with no-one to check animals v paperwork.
A couple of years ago someone had to be chased up the A9 as they had the wrong sheep with them, and at Melton Mr F just happened to catch someone taking his favourite new lamb away..........
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try and visit an auction before you want to buy so you know the ropes - and can actually understand the auctioneer - this takes time!!
study and research the catalogue - you will get names and addresses of the entries and google it as often local show/sale catalogues etc are also online so you will see who was at what show and won what, very useful. this can help weed out the serious breeders from the chancers. its amazing what comes up online!
stick to what you are looking for, and remember if it is rare breeds often the better registered stock is sold at home and the poorer stock is sold at the mart. probably different for commercials
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check the catalogue for any buyers premiums as well
lanark bidding is in pounds but they add 5% on when you pay!!!
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Not sure if it's been said -
But some things to remember -
It's price per life usually.
There will be VAT added on top.
There is sometimes a 'buyers premium'.
Before the sale starts, you need to go to the office with your holding number and register and get a bidding number. After the sale, or once you've finished buying, you take your number to the office and pay. You then have a receipt, which will allow you to load and remove your animals.
So figure out what you can bid when all of that is taken into account, and don't get carried away. It's very easy to get caught up in the moment.
Don't be afraid to get in and feel the sheep, some folk may frown, but f*** em, it's your money.
I personally hate buying at marts, as often you are buying in problems. I've nearly always bought better stock, at a better price off farm.
Oh yes, and look out for the luck money lol.
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There will be VAT added on top.
No, I don't think there is VAT added on any normal UK food or wool producing animals.
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When I bid at the marts there hasnt been any vat added :thinking:
Bidding is done on "per life" and goes up in "halfs" a half is a 50p, so he will say "60, and a half, 1 and a half, 2 and half etc all the way up to 9 and a half and then he says "70"
so there can be 20 bids in between 60 and 70, as it goes up in 50 pences, this is at the thame markets and thame sheep fairs, my be different elsewhere
wait for the price to go down, then bid up, bid earlyish though so he see's your face, otherwise if you wait till last you may be missed, I bid by nodding my head, then show my number when (if) I win
I also know my budget and stick to it, although if you really need that particular animal then it doesn't matter going (a bit) higher
I always try and locate the owners of the pen I like first and put a name to the face, also I always go and say good morning to the auctioneer and let him know what I am looking for that day, he then may try and look for your face if he remembers if something suitable comes through
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Yes, sorry, had a brain freeze, you don't pay VAT on any meet or milk bearing animals!
I meant, market charges.
::)
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Firstley I would not bother whith sterling .Carlile is the place this week eney think eney good will be at carlile .You can see the owner and historey of the stock .Its the best stock sale .I thort zimbarteles was on Friday at sterling .Be very carful in a strange sale no whot you wont .Read up on good breeders atending .I do things diferant put in a large bid ,it makes them think .When i sell stock i have no reserve on it .And i dont sell even if its a good price before the sale .The first 3 sales i had the best stock and got top price .Its always best to get the best breeding stock .And not get cast ofs
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Just looked at the catalogue for the ZWARTS , you fill in all your details in the form in the catalogue then when you buy a sheep you put in the lot number and hand it to the assistant in the ring , simple . The minimum price is ram lambs £130 shearlings £150 prices are in gn's plus %1 for the society . You really need to sit and watch the sales so that you understand the process and the auctioneers voice . Take time in your selection and select a first /second/third choice as normally the one you like others like as well
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If you want to practice wait till my sheep are in the ring bring a friend and get them to sit 10 feet away and tell them to copy everything you do
start waving your hand at the first price the auctioneer says then keep going till your arm gets sore
:roflanim:
Seriously though pick a spot when you bid so the auctioneer can see you , set your self limits with a percentage margin of error,don't go in to early .
Try to listen to the auctioneer before so you can tune in and find a spot you can hear him
Never ever buy sheep without checking out the vitals teeth, eyes, testicles and udder get to the sale early to check them out
Never usually disagree with vf but stirling is a fine sale with top quality stock especially hebrideans (as is Carlisle a fine sale) and its at least 100 miles less distance for those that live north / east of stirling
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Re VAT, there will not be VAt on the price of the animal, but will be VAT on marketing charges.
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Thanks all.
To clarify in case any other locals are reading, the Zwartbles and a few other commercial breeds are being both shown and sold on Friday 19th at United Auctions, whilst the Hebs are only being shown on Friday 19th and sold on Sat 20th at Caledonian Marts along with other rare breeds.
Really I just want to check out what's on offer from the various different breeders, and make notes for future reference. However, we do have a couple of Z vacancies, so if we see something good we may well have a bid.
Of course if any other TAS people are going to be there and fancy showing me the ropes, there's a coffee and a bacon sarnie in it for you! (Sheepandponies - I already have your number! :thumbsup: ).
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If you are looking to buy MV accredited sheep make sure you don't bid and win non MV ones too. Seen someone buy a few accredited females then purchase a non MV ram by mistake :innocent:.
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Don't and this is a big don't, appear too interested in any animal before it's auctioned. The seller will probably be near and will ask a friend to bid you up. Certainly don't mention aloud a price you're prepared to go up to!! How do I know this? ;) ;)
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Ooops!! What a minefield! I'm liking the advice though, so keep it coming :thumbsup: .
Jamie - we're not MV accredited here, but that is a very good point.
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Don't and this is a big don't, appear too interested in any animal before it's auctioned. The seller will probably be near and will ask a friend to bid you up. Certainly don't mention aloud a price you're prepared to go up to!! How do I know this? ;) ;)
I'm sorry to hear you've been tweaked like this, Sylvia - but in 'regular' (weekly / general conventional livestock) auctions, this is something that is very much frowned upon. If the auctioneer realises this is happening (and they probably will - they know all the sellers and all the regular buyers, and what they buy ;)), then s/he will ignore the 'runner' (one who is running up the bidding) and a very stern quiet word will be had with both parties later on.
I would certainly agree that it is unwise to discuss your likely top bid, though.
In terms of letting the buyer know of your interest or not - again, I think there is more to be gained by talking to the buyer beforehand (how are they bred, what is the farm like, are they used to ticks, what vaccination regime are they on, etc) than to be lost. I cannot speak for all types of seller, and of course there are bad eggs in every walk of life, but on the whole I find farming folk to be genuine people.
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when i have sold at auction, keen buyers will come up and give the third degree on the beast. and ask you what your reserve is. i dont think its a bad thing. remember if something you like goes unsold in the ring - you can negiotiate a price out the back.
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Had some nice old fellas discussing their top price openly in Welsh next to me the other day - it didn't affect them but never assume!
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Oh, Sally, I should not have put in the ;)s. It is only that I have seen this happening over 50 years and more. It goes on in every market auction. When I say don't be too enthusiastic I have seen newcomers to the country life standing over a pen of sheep saying loudly "I must have them, darling" and darling saying saying to the nearest farmer "How much are they worth?" and, of course farmer replying "Oh, don,t give more than say 120 each" They may be worth 70_80. So, of course when that pen comes up the seller having been tipped the wink will get someone to bid them up.
And, without giving offence (I hope) the newbies are easy to spot .
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Hi, there may be 'cut off' figure in many peoples thoughts in auctions. For example you may see similar lots stick on (just example) £65 or below. If you really want a lot then getting your bid in at that 'cut off' price so that others will have to pass that amount rather than you passing that amount can be handy at times. Best of luck!
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Just been at our regular auction today, and noticed that they have a note on the catalogue to the effect that new buyers wanting to pay by cheque will need a bank letter or other equivalent reference. I assume a credit or debit card is no problem, and cash certainly isn't.
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Don't and this is a big don't, appear too interested in any animal before it's auctioned. The seller will probably be near and will ask a friend to bid you up. Certainly don't mention aloud a price you're prepared to go up to!! How do I know this? ;) ;)
I'm sorry to hear you've been tweaked like this, Sylvia - but in 'regular' (weekly / general conventional livestock) auctions, this is something that is very much frowned upon. If the auctioneer realises this is happening (and they probably will - they know all the sellers and all the regular buyers, and what they buy ;)), then s/he will ignore the 'runner' (one who is running up the bidding) and a very stern quiet word will be had with both parties later on.
I have seen it happening even at the tup sales in Kelso....and in collusion with the autioneers. I wasn't buying btw, but the whole thing has made me very wary of buying at auction.
Probably Carlisle is a bit different, as it is a rare breed sale with lots of smallholders (as opposed to "proper" farmers) coming from a quite a large area, not the regulars. However remember the auction mart usually get a % of the sale - the higher the price the higher the mart's gain too.... it is not unheard off that auctioneers have good friends in the audience too. I would not (ever again!) make my intentions clear to the auctioneer (as to which lot I was interested in), just collect my number and be vague....
PS.: I don't think I will be coming down tomorrow.
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On the other hand, I have spoken to an auctioneer this year on the phone, at a mart many miles away I have had very little dealing with, to try to arrange to buy some sheep unseen as I had heard they were good, he asked me what my top price was, and he then said having seen and handled the sheep, he felt I would be disappointed in them if I paid that.
Slightly off topic, but I wanted to have a look at the Stirling catalogue just out of interest, but I can't find it anywhere, only the hebrideans, not the other stuff, does anyone have a link?
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And who has not seen auctioneers taking bids "off the wall"
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Well I'll be honest, that was quite a daunting experience for a novice!
I started out by watching the show, and had some success in picking out which sheep would be the winners, so I must be starting to get my eye in (long wheelbase seems to be desirable, though I believe not as good off-road? :innocent: ). However, I was heartened to find that the sheep we liked most didn't win anything, so maybe we might be able to afford them after all? :)
I'd made notes of the most likely pens before the auction and again during the show, but it was hard to find the sheep I wanted in all the melee and I must have walked round the mart at least ten times before I'd managed to check them all over and finalise my shortlist.
The most daunting part was getting into the pens with other people's sheep and trying not to make a total arse of myself when checking teeth etc, but I survived without any first aid injuries and also saved myself from bidding on a couple of disasters who had looked just fine from a distance.
We were originally looking for shearlings who could be tupped this year, but it turned out that all but one pen had *already* run with rams, so they were off the list as I really don't want to be lambing in the middle of winter. That left only one nice non-pregnant gimmer to bid on, but she fetched £400, which was over my limit (and even then failed to meet her reserve).
So, I switched attention to the ewe lambs, having picked out a shortlist of ten we fancied. Of course the ones we liked were also the ones other folks liked too, so I ended up paying up to my limit for one and a bit over it for a second (Mrs Womble's favourite, so that's her birthday and Christmas sorted! :innocent: ). They're both cracking sheep, so we're very happy with the result.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/BiscuitandBonnie2.jpg)
The things I've learned today then:
- Don't be afraid to ask questions of the sellers
- To make the right decision, you have to get up close and personal with the animals in their pens. This is a bit like looking after somebody else's children when they are watching - it's WAY worse than doing anything with your own sheep, especially for a novice.
- If you think an animal is a wee bit special, so does everybody else, and the price will reflect that. The same goes for sheep with rosettes on their backs from the pre-sale show.
- The show is a great place to work out what you like. The sheep that don't get placed will still be the best that particular breeder had for sale, and today at least fetched better than average prices.
- It's really hard to tell how a sheep stands when on thick straw, so you may need to wait until it gets into the ring before you can really assess it (and even then, the experienced folks were spotting issues with sheep that looked just fine to me!)
- There may be big gaps in the running order for whatever reason, so you need to keep on your toes as the lot you're interested in may come round more quickly than you think.
- If you hand over your details after winning, the auction will only note your name, not the other details on the form. This will then lead to embarrasment when you come to pay and no longer have a copy of your CPH number to hand! :-[
- As mentioned already, the price you pay is in Guineas, so the clerk will add 5% on to your winning bid when you come to pay.
- The actual collection was a total melee, and involved quite an intricate reversing manouver with the trailer. I'm not too bad at this now, but I'll be honest, two years ago I'd have undoubtably over-thought things and fluffed it, so it makes sense to get some practice in beforehand!
- Beltex breeders are utterly bemused by the popularity of Zwartbles. To quote a conversation overheard in the cafe queue "If I wanted a big wooly dug, I'd get mysel' an 'effing poodle!" :roflanim: .
So thanks for all the tips folks :thumbsup: . I'm now really looking forward to the Stirling Rare Breed sale tomorrow (Mowhaugh - I don't think there's a catalogue published for anything other than Hebs).
I'm not buying this time, so it should be a much more chillled out affair (for me at least!! ;D ).
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Well done Womble and lovely to meet you. Hope you enjoy your new sheep :)
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They look lovely :sheep:
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Well done Womble. The sheep look superb - and clearly others thought so too, so you must've been picking good ones!
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They look lovely, well done!
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Thanks All,
I was passing through Stirling this morning so popped my head in at the Hebridean and Rare Breed sale. This one was a similar set up to the one yesterday, except you had to register beforehand with the office and collect a bidder number. You then just showed your card to the auctioneer when you won. Oh, and the prices were about a fifth of what Zwartbles were fetching yesterday! ;D
The only confusing thing was that this sale kept switching between lambs and shearlings, and some of the Hebs certainly gave the staff the runaround (I'm starting to think our Manxs aren't so bad after all!).
I'll have to agree with Victorian Farmer's comments though. Apart from the Hebs, the other sheep on offer were quite a mixed bag. There were various breeds there such as some Jacob crosses, some unidentified "Rastasheep" (Teeswater-ish but not quite) and one solitary Zwartble tup who looked as though he'd turned up on the wrong day. So if I'd been looking for anything other than Hebs I'd have been disappointed (I guess everybody was at Carlisle?).
I also gave our new girls a really close inspection today, and I'm even more pleased with what we bought - didn't even have to trim any hooves - RESULT!! ;D :thumbsup: ;D
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And who has not seen auctioneers taking bids "off the wall"
Yes, they do - but that'll be when there's a reserve. They have to get the animal up to the reserve price before any bids from the floor would secure it in any case. If their bidder comes with them, the seller gets their reserve, the buyer gets an animal s/he likes and the auction makes its commission. If the buyer doesn't think the animal is worth the reserve price, they drop out, the reserve isn't met, and there's no sale. (So that's why it's important to have done your own market research, so you know you don't overpay for something with an unrealistic reserve.)
Which leads me to offer a bit more insight to newbies...
If you hear the auctioneer saying, "Selling now", or similar, it means the lot has reached its reserve and will now be sold to the highest bidder. If the auctioneer has not said anything like this, it doesn't mean the animal has not reached its reserve, but you may find you think you've secured the lot, only to be told, "No, not today, sorry." You may then be able to agree a price with the seller outside the ring - but should then both register the sale with the auction company, so you still pay commission and so on.
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The sale you need to go to is the September sales carlile. The very best and very helpful folk. I get a night at Premier in and get dawn erley. I'm not getting rams no more straws it's the onley way to get sales up. But I do follow the the good breeders. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CBSf9oUeyA8 (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CBSf9oUeyA8) This is whot it's a bout