The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: ThomasR on August 09, 2014, 12:06:08 pm
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Hi I was thinking about getting a trio of mature hebradian ewes from a reputable breeder and this is my first year of keeping sheep and he also would be able to rent me a ram for this year. I have been told by other people that they are difficult to keep but he said that if they have sufficent grazing that they would be happy enough. I have 4 acres of field and another place for the rams to stay. So I was wondering if anybody could give me some advise on keeping hebradian sheep and just some usefull tips and pointers on the breed and what to look ou for in good sheep when buying?
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Hi. We haven't found Hebrideans at all difficult to keep. Once you have learnt that they don't necessarily flock as other sheep do when you round them up, and once you have developed your strategy to get around this, you won't have a problem.
Hebs are small to handle, with ewes weighing about 40kgs, tups about 60kgs. Most Hebs are two horned these days, but there are still about 6-7% multihorned, including our Ancient Type. For a beginner, two horns are easier to manage.
Just what you are looking for in your sheep when you purchase them will govern your choice. If you want to show them, then you will need a different beast compared to if you want a sturdy, rainproof, independent animal for general use.
For showing, your sheep needs to have all the qualities of any good animal, plus a very black double coat, longish but not too long. The horns on ewes need to curve back and slightly outwards, not be too close to the face. The tail shouldn't hang below the hock (this is a shorttailed breed) and should be covered in thick fleece.
In two horned Hebs, the head should be 'clean' ie no topknot, the eyes bright and either dark or light brown. The face should be slightly dished in ewes and straight in tups, but never a Roman nose. There should be no white spots or marks anywhere on the fleece, and you may need to search well for these. As lambs it is acceptable for a small white spot on the head, as long as this disappears by 4 months, ie when offered for sale.
Hebs are slightly less stocky than a four-square sheep, but should still stand well, sturdy leags well placed, good rib cage and for a tup a good strong straight back. Tups horns curl around and can eventually manage about 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 turns. Their horns mustn't touch the face, nor should they be widely set. They have a slightly triangular cross section and are fairly heavy, more so than, say, a Shetland. Obviously a tup should have all his dangly bits, and you should check the penis for discharge or infection.
I always check sheeps feet, teeth including molars and bite, all over including the crutch for fly strike, skin for mites, lice etc, eyes for brightness and no discharge, all that.
I would also always ask for the age and history of each animal, including if the tup is proven, and see the registration doc which goes back to gggsire, so you can cross check for too close a relationship with the proposed ewes.
Hebs are long lived and you can expect ewes to produce lambs until they are a good ten yo. Some of ours have gone on til 15, as long as they have kept their teeth.
Hebs for general purpose don't come so black, often with a grey 'blanket' over the back. They are more very dark brown than black and don't always have the fleece double all over. Both the undercoat and top hair coat are water repellent, so as long as the fleece has a good 'spring' to it that's fine. Occasional ewes are polled but as that is genetically multihorned, if you are concentrating on 2 horned Hebs then you won't meet one.
If you're interested in multihorns then I can go into them too.
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Two breeds polar opposites ZWAR large breed ewes can do 80kg live wt needs very good ground or large inputs to maintain lots of fast growing lambs HEBS small ewes 40kg does best on rougher ground with very little in puts . very difficult to feed both together without over or under feeding
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Thanks fleecewife I would mainly be interested in two horned hebs I am currently gassed in peebles and the flock offering me ewes is bryland. What time of year do they lamb. Just to see if they would lamb with my Zwartbles?
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Hi shep53
I only have one field but 2/3 of the field is lush green grass where the Zwartbles usually graze and the other part is hilly with long grass that is too long and thistles so they can pick what they want to eat. I tend not to feed extra to the Zwartbles but I do provide a crystalx lick for them at all times so they help them selves. The only time I will feed my Zwartbles extra would be when I would flush them and I would only do that if the grass becomes poor. So really the sheep just help them selves when ever they want a they only seem to take what they need.
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Correct me if im wrong but from your other post you have not fed ewes through the winter into lambing and then suckling lambs , you may be surprised how much condition your dairy breed sheep can lose . A crystalix block is just another form of sheep feed providing protein and energy so you are already feeding them .
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Thanks fleecewife I would mainly be interested in two horned hebs I am currently gassed in peebles and the flock offering me ewes is bryland. What time of year do they lamb. Just to see if they would lamb with my Zwartbles?
Bryland sheep are fine :thumbsup: We are a few miles west of there. They show at the Highland and did very well this year.
Normally Hebs lamb in April, having run with the tup from Nov 5th.
We give ours a small amount of feed in the 6 weeks running up to lambing, especially the older ewes and twinners, but nothing like the amount you need for Zwartbles, nor with such a high percentage of protein, so you would have to keep them separate at that time. Best to check with Caz and John what the ewes have been used to, and whether they have lambed outdoors or not, so you don't change their treatment.
They also need adlib hay available throughout the winter up here - they will choose to eat it if they need it. If the snow is deep then we would also give them a very small amount of Champion tup. They have a licky bucket, which they take as needed, but they don't OD on it.
Hebs can get copper deficiency grey fleece on ground which is copper deficient. If severe it can cause other problems, so as well to keep an eye out. If they are grey in a line throughout the fleece, then they need treating with a glass bolus which goes in the stomach and releases the copper very slowly over a year. All sheep and cattle too can get the deficiency, but black sheep show it in their fleece colour.
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Hi fleecewife
If I posted a picture of the feild would you be able to tell me if the feild is ok for hebs?
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Agree with Fleece wife Bryland have v good Hebs and they do interact with them so they should be reasonably handled
Hebs generally won't over eat and will leave food in the trough
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Hi fleecewife
If I posted a picture of the feild would you be able to tell me if the feild is ok for hebs?
I can try but I don't know how much I'll be able to tell from a photo.
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I think children and horns don't mix well, I would go for Shetland or ouessant sheep. There are many flocks of silly tame Shetlands and most ouessants you come across will also be very tame! Hebs tend to be more flighty even when they are tame. Alway exceptions to every rule of course! And if your heart is set on hebs then obviously just go for it! Good luck with whatever you chose, do let us know how it goes!
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here are some pics
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some more
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sorry it took me such a long time hope they are ok
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we bred hebrideans for a while. they were never any bother, didnt jump fences and came to a bucket mostly. nothing bad to say about them at all.
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sorry it took me such a long time hope they are ok
From what I can see, the field looks fine for Hebs. I don't see any ragwort, foxglove and so on to poison them. Is the ground open into the conifers? Hebs love a bit of browsing and will rip the bark off trees, although conifers are not their favourite. We bring ours willow branches for a few extra vitamins and minerals in the winter - they love them.
Are there any rocky bits? They are good for keeping the feet worn properly, but they are not essential.
What does everyone else think?
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There is no open bit to live trees but there are a few branches and some always get cut as they fall and put in the feild around the fence just to make sure the sheep don't escape. There is stables with gravle around and slabs in side where the sheep go when it gets too rough outside.
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If you like rare breeds and horned how about Portland sheep!? Very docile and easy to manage, the lambs are born a fox red colour which fades to a creamy body and tan face as they become adults. Lovely sheep! The rams are spectacular and again very docile... Just another thought!
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Hi roddycm
I do not know of any portland breeders nr Peebles or do I know anything aboutthem but rare breeds tend to cost more as they are harder to get than others. Also there tends too be reason that they are rare breeds whether they tend too just die or feet problem or tricky lambing or just not economical to keep, :huff: :huff: :huff: :huff: :huff: but there is always a reason like when i had a tamworth pig we had to get the vet out several times which cost allot, :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( but with the gos we never had a problem and I can always change my mind later . The reason I'm going for Hebs is that they will eat the bits of the feild that my zwartbles will not as they are fussy and have found them to be fussy but pleasant sheep. I also have had my heart set of hebs since I was 4, so 11 years. However if you know of a breeder nr me I could change my mind if you where wanting to change my mind.
Thanks anyway
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Oh gosh no! Not trying to change your mind, just throwing ideas around and trying to be helpful! I had hebs and then manx... The manx i especially loved I never had a problem with either and would heartily recommend both! I was just thinking that I wouldn't put my little nephew in with them because of their horns and their willingness to use them especially the tamer ones! If my dogs could talk they'd tell a bruised tale or two haha
You are right though these are all rare breeds because they do not fit the commercial system! All have good feet and easy lambing though so on that side defo better than commercials! The Portland was a suggestion just because of it's more placid nature, while still being different! Black welsh is another option haha promise I'll stop now! Best of luck with wtv you decide, you have a very lucky little boy I'd have loved my mum to get me my own sheep at that age!
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The reason I'm going for Hebs is that they will eat the bits of the feild that my zwartbles will not as they are fussy and have found them to be fussy but pleasant sheep.
Z123 - is your land all one field? I wonder if you may have trouble if the Hebs preferentially eat all the good stuff you want for your Zwartbles and only then move on to the rough stuff, leaving the Zwartbles hungry? Fleecewife et al - do your Hebs eat the nice stuff first like this?
I'm reading this thread with interest since we currently have Manx Loaghtans and Zwartbles, so are on the same learning curve as you! BTW, we've found that our Zwartbles love eating dock leaves, which the Manxs won't touch, so it seems to work both ways!?
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As FW says the hebs eat selectively and like to browse we have a field with an area of longer grass and the hebs are choosing currently to eat the seed head s off the longer grass rather than.the green clover they also like to browse nettles docs and bizarrely thistles
BL
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As FW says the hebs eat selectively and like to browse we have a field with an area of longer grass and the hebs are choosing currently to eat the seed head s off the longer grass rather than.the green clover they also like to browse nettles docs and bizarrely thistles
BL
Yep - Hebs and other primitives, maybe all sheep, are good at choosing a 'route' for going around their available grazing/browsing area, so they take a bit of this and a bit of that. A bit like goats with a range will do.
Ours tend to eat certain things at certain times of year. For example, they don't like mid sized nettles, which maybe sting more viciously than the younger and older nettles, but I have noticed that from about now onwards, as the nutritional content of grazing declines, so they eat more nettles, thistles and browsing in general.
we currently have one multi-horned Heb ewe lamb, number 93, who loves browsing on the hedge and the rough grass and herbs under it. To get to it she has to stick her head through the Rylock mesh, then of course she can't pull it back through. She has already broken 3 of her 4 horns this way. She bawls very loudly when she's stuck, so Mr F and I just say the magic words "93" and trog off to free her. It's a wretched nuisance in fact, but she's becoming quite a friendly sheep this way.
There are certain times when the Hebs aren't all that keen on the longer, dryer grass amongst the lusher stuff. I think that when the ewes are feeding their lambs they know they need richer feed than once they wean them, so you can't run both Zwartbles and Hebs together and expect one to eat only lush grass and the other to eat only coarse stuff - they will both eat both, but in slightly different proportions.
So don't calculate your stocking rate as if only each breed will be there - you have to take into account the total number of grazing units (1 grazing unit is one cow or 5 sheep).
But no, Hebs will not eat only the lush grass leaving the Zwartbles hungry.
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Hi Womble
Yes currently I only have one field but I usually do rotational grazing but when I want the field right down to the ground and that tends to make them eat everything but the thistles so to get the thistles down I really need a cow. But I do have allot of ground for them to graze over as I currently have 5 acres and 4 sheep.
Thuan is for all your replies
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Ok thanks for all your replies I am going for hebs
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Hi guys thanks for all the help, I got the two girls back late last night and they seem to have relaxed a bit. I will post some pics.
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pic 1 from a distance (sorry about bad camera)
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pics again
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:wave: how exciting for you, all the best!
They look really at home and have plenty of room to roam
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They look nice - i would be giving them the odd treat just to get them used to you - a little coarse mix rattled in a bucket just to say hello every couple of days for a short time will keep them nice and tame - the Heb sale is on at Stirling Caledonian mart on Saturday coming if your looking for more
good luck
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Hi thanks
I have tried the bucket method but that is not working as they were tame for the original owner but they wont even come within 10 metres of a bucket and the other ones just attack the bucket and there is none left after 1 minute. They even will not take digestives.
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They will come good just need a little time to settle. Maybe just put food down in little piles and retreat to get them past this stage