The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: ladyK on June 19, 2014, 03:28:34 pm
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I think I have a 'problem ewe' (Soay) - I don't think she is ill as such but something is not right.
She is the flightiest one in the flock, and has always been the very bottom of the pecking order - she gets pushed around by everybody (she usually gets out of the way before even being pushed).
She had twin ram lambs 2 weeks ago. She is very protective of them, but I'm not sure she has very much milk: I see them suckle very often and what seems like quite some time. They don't seem to have grown as much as my earlier lambs in 2 weeks, though they seem otherwise fine, and are not complaining. (Not sure I'm interpeting this correctly).
It worries me that she seems to be loosing weight, even though she has as much cake as she wants twice a day (she will only eat a few handful). She also has a lick bucket.
I moved the flock to better grass 2 days ago (I move them with a bucket down the lane). She has done that before but this time she refused to leave the 'home' field - maybe it was too early for her and she felt she didn't want to take risks with the lambs? She is now alone on the field with her lambs, not sure if this is a problem as she has the lambs for company (and noone to push her off the feed bucket) but I'm sure she would feel more secure in the company of the flock (unlikely she will follow the bucket on her own, for one).
She got flystruck soon after the birth, it's now just over a week since I cleaned and treated her and the skin seems to have healed really well. A set back I'm sure, but I don't think this is an ongoing issue.
So nothing seems to be going quite right for her, poor girl... Not sure what else I can do for her? More cake? Catch and pen her up to monitor more closely? Or is this a case for the vet?
As every grateful for any advice.
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First port of call is is her worming and fluke treatment up to date? If you're feeding her cake but she's losing weight I would worm/fluke her if not done already
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She is due a fluking dose, but have been putting that off because of the flystrike. I got it all here so will get this into her asap.
Also looked up a few more posts here (was searching the wrong terms before) and I think she could have milk fever/hypoclacemia? While she is not 'down' she is certainly spending more time under the hedge that I would think is 'normal', even in the mornings when it's not hot yet.
So I just went out and got some Calcinject - I understand it can do no harm even if it's not milk fever. Just have to work out how to do the injection correctly. I have seen instructions on how to to do it in a different post and I'm not squeamish but I haven't injected anything before. I've seen the vet do it on dogs/cats but not sure about subcutaneous administration. Is that when you make a tent with the skin to put the needle in?
Of course I have to chatch her again before I can do anything...
EDIT to say that I searched some more, and got the instructions I need for injecting. TAS is a treasure trove!
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If you can't catch her she doesn't need it and chances are tbh she doesn't need it anyway. I think you would benefit from a vet or farmer friend coming over and actually seeing the sheep and the general situation there for better advice than can be given over the internet.
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I will call the vet tomorrow anyway, but it seemed from what I read that hypocalcemia was a bit of an urgent case, and Calciject would not harm. But maybe it is only urgent when the sheep is actually down?
In that case I would get the vet on an urgent call out without a second thought, but as I explained she just doesn't seem right rather than seriously ill (at the moment).The most worrying thing is how much weight she has lost in the last week. She looks virtually hollow between her ribs and her back end.
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I can't help with any real advice but in our limited experience of lambing Soay, our ewes didn't appear to visibly lose weight. We did offer small amounts of mix and although they came to the trough usually only had a nibble and were gone leaving food there. Our grass wasn't that lush but none seemed to lose weight.
Some did 'keep out of the way' for longer than others though. One of our quieter ewes took several weeks before she mixed much.
Sorry .... only observations really.
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We had a ewe who had twins and was looking thin, her babies were snatching milk of other mums. We fluked and this sorted it.I would definitely fluke the mum.
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She's been lambed a while hasn't she so the chances of it being hypocalcaemia are very low. Never say never but, low. It is a random choice diagnosis, she could as easily be in the hedge ill for mastitis with twins chewing on an empty udder when she was struck, septicaemia after the maggot invasion or what have you. Why not ask someone to have a look? Preferably the vet but a farmer or sheepy mate would probably do.
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Having seen a cow with milk fever it is very urgent and they really are on deaths door so I highly doubt it's that if she's up and about. I would fluke and consult vet though if no better after that. Have you felt her udder, has she got mastitis?
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When I went out to see her / catch her she was still in the hedge, lambs trying to nurse with her lying down.
She didn't move away when I came close, then she didn't even try to move when I got hold of her, so that was definitely a huge deterioration since lunch time, so put her in the shed and called the vet out.
Her udder is fine, milk looks OK but not very plentiful, but she's got a temperature and is obviously thin and weak (still standing up occasionaly and eating though). No specific diagnosis but vet thinks the fly strike generally made a mess of her immunity and metabolism. She got shots of calcium, ABs and antinflammatories (and I was shown how to do them).
She inside now with cake, hay, fresh cut grass and various bits I know she likes (willow, hazel, ivy, comfrey). Will get some supplement milk for the lambs too.
Hope she feels better tomorrow. :fc:
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Hypocalcaemia can be brought on by stress as much as anything else, even later in the lactation, if they are feeding twins or triplets.
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Can you supplement the lambs if they're suffering the knock on effect of her ill health? Forgive my suggestion if you've already done it, but perhaps a gut stimulus like pro-rumen may help or some kind of a tonic just to give her a boost plus some special tidbits she likes. Sounds like most anything is worth a shot :fc:
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She looked just as depressed this morning after all the vet shots. Gave her 50ml electrolyte solution with a bit of yoghurt (home made pro-rumen?) and her appetite picked up a bit in the afternoon so I'm hopeful she may be getting better.
And yes, it did occur to me too that I should supplement the lambs at this point. Tried them on 2 bottle sessions today. Maybe they need more time to get used to the bottle at 2 weeks old... While obviously hungry (ewe will ony get up if I enter the pen, lambs go straight to the udder as soon as she gets up) they weren't impressed by the bottle. First attempt I got about 100ml between them into them (really having to shove the bottle teat into them), second attempt was more like 200ml (between them again, so not much?) - some improvement at least. As soon as I let them go they go straight for the udder again, so obviously not satisfied. I realise I have to give them more feeding sessions - will try 4 sessions tomorrow. Or more? The packet says the max intake is up 1.5 litres at this age, but they have mum too, so not sure what I'm aiming for.
I'm doing this for the very first time, so not sure I'm doing it right either... for example, how big should the hole on the teat be? It all a rather steep learning curve...
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Poor wee Soay I hope she starts to improve my only advice would be a vitamin dose, the vet will have an injectable version or I use the country life dose at tupping, pre lambing and for anything poorly, and like you say pro biotic yogurt is good for tummy upsets. The soay lambs will once they figure it out, start sucking feverishly on the bottle, no doubt, Good luck :fc:, a picture may help us too
Oh and an FEC, I had a friend who had very lean soays and had wormed them for everything, an FEC identified, small red worm that they had caught from the horse they shared a field with, a cydectin dose cleared them straight up, turns out the whole flock was anemic,
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dot forget the size of soay lambs compared to the norm they won't be taking all it says on the packet.
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Good points, thank you.
Still need to get a bit ore milk into them I think even at Soay size. Or at least to a point they feel satisfied enough not to run straight back to the udder after the bottle?
Sheep actually sharing fields with 2 donkeys - their FECs have been OK so far but should do one for her specifically now.
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Is she getting on in years perhaps her teeth aren't up to much, sounds like she s even giving her all to her lambs. I think 200 ml is very good, better too little than too much. Maybe worth giving her some of the collate multi lamb tonic too, full of all sorts of goodies. Hope she mends well xx
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In answer to your post about them running back to her, the bottle will feel pretty alien to them if they ve gotten into the routine of running to her udder, and thy will continue that behvaiour until they get used to you and the teat. it ll take a little time, they will soon look for you for the bottle, and either perhaps mum will start to produce more milk as she feels better and they stay on her or they come completely over to the bottle x
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What is the name of the red worm that they caught from horses?
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Theres a stomach worm they can both share.. Can't remember th proper name for it though.. Hope you are well Me :) :farmer:
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Oh and an FEC, I had a friend who had very lean soays and had wormed them for everything, an FEC identified, small red worm that they had caught from the horse they shared a field with, a cydectin dose cleared them straight up, turns out the whole flock was anemic,
thats really interesting as i didnt think sheep and ponies shared parasites. when my pony had a small red worm problem, it never showed in her FEC. im slightly concerned that my goats or cattle could have picked it up. what brand was used to treat the sheep?
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The horse in question had come back from a livery yard and had a large burden, the small red worms were strongyles, and the only thing my friend could treat the sheep with was a cydectin injection, but the improvement in a week was amazing, as i said the sheep were anemic.
Even though they were thoroughly dosed, the dose was for the wrong parasite.
Hows the wee Soay today?
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Her appetite has picked up further today so I'm feeling quietly positive :fc:
She will not touch hay though so I'm having to keep picking her bunches of fresh grass and twigs, worried that I may not be able to keep up with her.
Mixed success with getting milk into lambs, one moment I think they got the hang of it the next most milk ends up on me rather than in them. But they took more than yesterday so done progress.
So now the big question is: how long do I keep her penned up? (48 hours this evening).
She looks happy enough in her pen but the lambs are getting rather bored I think, and she might eat more grass than I can pick if out grazing. Should I risk not being able to monitor her and probably not being able to supplement the lambs? As said above, if I can't catch her she probably doesn't need me but I worry I might be to optimistic. Not sure anybody can advise on this but this question will keep me up tonight I think.
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If she were here I would make a large enclosure with her pen within it so that the lambs can loon about, and she has the safety of her pen/stable/barn at night for a little while whilst she recuperates.
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What teats are you using with the lambs, I've found the couple of top ups we ve done in the past season took the small red and yellow teat best, the I moved them on to the nettex bottle n teat x
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Using the red and yellow small teats - these seemed the closest to 'udder size' and still quite big for their tiny faces.
Good idea about the enclosure, but I would need an awful lot of hurdles, a lot more than I have (she's in the donkey's shelter so not much grass around that). Maybe I can do something with electric tape - I don't think the lambs will respect that (just slip over/ under) but maybe this doesn't matter, as they will always come back to her, if she stays within it, and I think she would. Might try that!
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Goodo :) Oh I use all sorts, garden gates, old doors, anything and tie it all in, I can imagine she senjoying here BandB :) xx
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I'm alright thanks Hellybee! Strongyles are a family of nematode worms more than a worm, if you could tell me the name of that specific horse/sheep highly pathogenic strogyle worm I would be very interested being the owner of both species! It doesn't ring a bell.
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I did try setting up a large pen with electric fence lines - seems to be working!
The lambs walked straight through (had it on low output anyway) and then came back in straight away and then spent the afternoon in the sun. Then they went back into their straw lined shed for the night, and weren't bothered wh3en I shut the door on them. My little ewe seems to like it there :)
She's munching with increasing appetite (unfortunately the outdoor pen doesn't have too much grass so still depending on me picking enough stuff for her). Still not much success with getting more than 100ml of top up milk into the lambs (between them) but they seem less hungry so maybe her milk yield has improved.
Need to figure out when she is well enough to let them all go.
Want to put her back with the rest of the flock on the big field with much better grass, but this probably means I have to bundle up in some way, as I don't think she will follow the bucket on her own without her flock mates (she is always last and more cautious/suspicious than the rest.)
While I can get hold of the lambs I wonder if I should take them for castration before they all go out on the field - will save me a lot of worry about catching them later. Lambs will be 3 weeks on Friday. (I have decided to let the vet do it this time, as I feel rather out of my depth with ringing tiny Soay bits for the first time - the learning curve has been steep enough already!)
Or would it not be a good time to get it done now, as I'm sure the lambs' system will have suffered too as a result of the mum being unwell. Maybe I should wait longer for everybody's strength to return? (I imagine taking her lambs away from her even for an hour or two will be rather stressful for her; we don't have a trailer so will need to make the vet trip with the car & dog crate.