The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: kate7590 on June 16, 2014, 12:53:49 pm
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We are in the process of registering to be able to keep some pet sheep/ lawnmowers.
We have 4 Border Collies (just pets) and were really looking for some tips to introduce them to the sheep without causing problems.
We realise it may be a long process but we would love to eventually be able to trust the dogs around the sheep and know they won't chase/ worry them.
The dogs have been allowed in our fields since we bought the land, and the sheep will be living in these fields so we would like to be able to still allow the dogs freedom to go into their fields.
Any help greatly appreciated :)
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Kate,
Plumseverywhere went on a great course when she got her dog. She might have some good tips or even recommend where you can find a similar course.
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What is their general obedience like?
Which commands do they know? How well do they follow them?
I don't know too much about collies but guessing that they will be interested in sheep (being collies ;D). Maybe not too much at first but soon their instinct will kick in.
Helpful to know about their general obedience.
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Mine would just organise them, make them look tidy in one place
Mind they where pups when they first saw sheep
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My advice go on a course well worth the money, you will learn to either train the dogs or not but training them not to bother the sheep is as important as anything
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I have two working collies who are superb workers. I would never let the younger one be with sheep unsupervised.
Prior to being a sheep farmer, I had pet dogs, mainly collie crosses, who I taught it was naughty to even look at sheep. They were superb, would come back to me as soon as they saw any sheep, and keep their heads behind my legs so they wouldn't look at the sheep. Bless.
But I would still never have let most of them be with sheep unsupervised.
So what I am saying is that you can train your dogs to behave around sheep when you are with them. But with 4, it is, IMO, highly unlikely improbable that it will be safe to leave them loose with the sheep if you are not present.
You may be lucky and have one, or even perhaps two, that can, in time, be trusted with sheep when you are not there. But only on their own with the sheep, not with the other dogs and with sheep.
Get yourself a copy of Barbara Sykes' book Understanding Border Collies (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Border-Collies-Barbara-Sykes/dp/1861262809), and read it. Twice.
I am sorry to be so blunt, but to think that any four dogs will be safe unsupervised with sheep is misguided; to think you would achieve it with four collies unrealistic.
It is better that you get your head around that now, before you get the sheep, than later, after you have had to learn the hard way.
And don't forget, once your collies have learned how much fun it is to chase sheep, you can never ever let them off a lead safely in the countryside ever again.
I would consider other livestock, not sheep, in your circumstances.
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SITN has said perfectly what I was thinking. I was waiting to see whether your ' freedom in their fields' meant they had freedom to roam on your land unattended and to understand how obedient your dogs were in general before I answered.
I have 2 retrievers. Neither are at all interested in sheep and the young one is scared of them. I wouldn't however leave them unattended in my fields with my sheep at all. I don't think they would chase but you just don't know, especially with 2 dogs together. 4 collies I think could get into real trouble .... IMO.
How you introduce them I think depends partly on how obedient they already are.
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I should point out I did do what Sally suggested, and bought that book, do it
Both of mine have been, well 1 is and 1 is a part trained sheepdog
Listen to sallyintnorth she knows what she's talking about, I was being flippant, I shouldn't have been, I have to go into the corner now, the naughty corner, cos the collies said I have to, it makes me look tidier
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Thanks everyone for replies :)
I wasn't very clear in my original post, we wouldn't be leaving the dogs alone with the sheep at all. We are always with them when they go in the fields anyway.
I think we will start with 2 at a time (hubby and I can have one each) and work really hard with them.
They are all very friendly and quite obedient. Its just 1 that Im a little worried about, so he will be watched very carefully.
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I have to go into the corner now, the naughty corner, cos the collies said I have to, it makes me look tidier
:roflanim: :roflanim:
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The lady who's course I took our Murphy on also runs one in Wales (I notice you are in Powys) drop me a PM if you want more info.
Murphy is a "terrier x probablybordercolliebutno-onereally knows." so has the herding instinct but also the "I cant' hear you" pigheadedness of a terrier when you try to call him back sometimes. the course was really good and I can now walk in the field of sheep with murphy and he sticks with me (unless I ask him to 'bring them in' which he can also do)
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PS can someone let Alistair out of the naughty corner now... its quiet...far too quiet...
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Got let out yesterday....
Been really, really busy with dog agility stuff, training my own dog, one to one lessons to the most useless couple I've ever come across with a dog that has actually got some aptitude and then a couple of agility demonstrations and training principles teaching for a local 6th form college, and I've got to do that again next week, pretty much knackered and tired today, and it's my birthday tomorrow, so inevitable disappointment again, I've only asked for a Lego vw camper van, for the third year running, I'm not expecting one, I'm expecting a worm or a centipede or something from my oh, basically something she found in the garden, and if Father's Day is anything to go by, bugger all from the kids
Anyway it the solstice tomorrow so I'm going to paint my arse blue and run round the woods, highlight of the year
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Ahh poor you... see, I can do sympathy. just about. A lego VW camper? you should have nipped down to the dubs festival I worked at 2 weeks ago - most of them looked like they were held together by lego. Apart from the ridiculously shiny ones that by the end of day 3 were plastered in mud ;D
Be careful painting your arse blue and running round woods... you may be mistaken for a Uraguayan footballer and get said arse kicked.
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To introduce dogs to sheep, bring them into the field, or paddock, on a lead and gradually get them used to the sheep. Also when you feed the sheep bring the dogs into the field with you and keep them well supervised. It shouldn't take long before they are used to the sheep. I usually bring the dogs into the field when they're pups and that way they're used to the sheep from a young age. By the way how old are the dogs?
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Andy Nickless iand Alison Smith in the Marches are excellent trainers. PM me for further details. They train you to train the dogs. Andy will assess their potential and get you and them started together. Alison took our hooligan for five weeks and gave us back a dog that actually worked sheep and then we went back for more lessons with the dog to get him to drive them. Don't forget to worm your dogs before they mix with the sheep and keep them wormed - toxoplasmosis.
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so much good advice here. we had to introduce our less than straightforward terrier to sheep when he was an older dog. it took a while to transform him from a dog who would gladly cross several fields to chase absolutely anything to now where we have no concerns whatsoever. in his case it was vital to be vigilant at every turn and never but never take anything for granted. he was not even allowed to look at a sheep without strong words. even tho I have no real concern anymore we still never simply assume he wont- always watch out.
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Personally I've found that from a young age tying the dog up to a post in the farmyard near a pen of sheep & leaving them tied up whilst doing your jobs but keeping them in sight - I've often found a group of ewes especially around lambing time to be the best technique to start them respecting sheep as they can be quite intimidating to dogs. That & also taking them for walks on the lead to start through fields with your own sheep pref from pups if poss. Touch wood we've never had a problem with our dogs & our sheep & they have always been fine off the lead with sheep but these are pet dogs & not trained sheep dogs & if they were they would be trained accordingly. It also helped with my dog at present seb has always been scared of sheep as the ewes tend to follow him when we're out walking - I don't know why ??? ??? Any1 else ever heard of / seen this with sheep? I did wonder if its because he has a lot of white on him & they mistook him for a lamb ect. But 1 of my fav pics of him is in front of some ewes & lambs in a pen where I made him sit in front of & it took me ages to get it but its a fab pic x
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Our working lab, now 12 mnths old, is scared of our Soay and they know it. ::)
They walk up to her menacingly, stamping feet or pringing off all fours at her. A couple of them will actually chase her across the field. She always keeps one eye on them and gives them a good wide birth. They have sometimes trapped her on the other side of the brook!
If they are the other side of the fence she will touch noses with them.
When one of our lambs got out the neighbouring farmer got him back using his well trained collie (farmer trains, trials and is one of best known handlers in Wales) to bring lamb back ..... or try to! Lamb followed collie, ran after collie and eventually crossed a stream and ran away from collie.
If any strange dog is in the field the Soay bunch together and follow it.
They do steer clear of our bouncy Flat Coat but one of the tups we hired used to chase and butt him.
So yes ..... scary sheep here that like a spot of dog-worrying. ::)
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Whenever we bring a new goat, they immediately sniff them and go their way. They know they belong there. Adult or kid. I know when one of my cats enters the pasture, the cats run for their life out of there. Chickens, ducks, turkeys don't stand a chance entering the pasture. We keep our fowl on the other side of the fence mostly in pens. We even have dogs(german shepherds)that guard our home and birds. The anatolians and german shepherds don't mix. They sniff each other thru the fenced off area. The anatolians mainly just watch goats. When we added a female anatolian pup to the herd, we stood there to make sure the other 2 anatolians didn't attack her. I guess because she was a baby, the nuturing instinct kicked in and they protected her. We will probably do as you suggested. Introduce them slowly and see what happens. I want sheep so next time we breed, the puppies can get used to them. I wish we had the GSDs and birds when we brought our anatolians home as pups because we probably wouldn't have this problem. They could have guarded all of them. Thank you.
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So yes ..... scary sheep here that like a spot of dog-worrying. ::)
I agree, watch the sheep too, my Dorset ewe lamb crept up behind my Jack Russell and put her nose under him and flipped him upside down and down the steps - she is very cheeky!!
I also had a friend visit with a dog and in the end we had to ask the owner to put him away because the sheep would not leave him alone and the poor dog was being so patient but I was concerned how long the dog would put up with being followed everywhere and having their noses in his face. Definite dog-worrying. :-J
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My sheep are really pesky with my dogs too. If I try to do dog training in their filed, the sheep walk to heel better than the dogs do! They always run the dogs a merry dance and I usually have to put them in a pen if I want to get any serious work done with the dogs as they find it hard to concentrate when the sheep are tugging at their ears!
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My sheep are really pesky with my dogs too. If I try to do dog training in their filed, the sheep walk to heel better than the dogs do! They always run the dogs a merry dance and I usually have to put them in a pen if I want to get any serious work done with the dogs as they find it hard to concentrate when the sheep are tugging at their ears!
I have six whippets, a greyhound an Ibizan, a border terrier and two pugs. Oh and a tiny Yorkie. They all look upon my Jacobs, the geese and the bantams as part of the pack. I can take them all through my neighbours sheep and they don't even look at them, except to skip out of the way of the ram!
I even, ahem :eyelashes: have a pug who will work sheep in that she knows hand signals for right and left (I can't train a sheepdog as I can't tell left from right quickly enough) and she will stand still on command.
I won't say she's expert, or even good if I'm honest but she is useful at times
This doesn't answer your question though! I would honestly say that if you are not certain that your dogs are 100% with your sheep then keep them well separated. It only takes a few minutes for them to do their worst.
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You need to make sheep either boring or taboo.
We have a range of dogs, terriers, lurchers, whippet, hounds, collie, spaniel etc etc. All working, and the runners are terriers are well versed in chasing things. . . . . .
But all of them are out from when they have had their jabs, just walking past, through, round sheep etc etc, until sheep are just a boring part of the scenery.
Some, however, take a little more correction, i've had a couple of dogs made an error of judgement, and in a moment of haste, pile into a sheep (mostly when a lone sheep has jumped out of a block of cover, looking very much like something else!). The ONLY thing you can do then, is to very quickly and very firmly correct them, and I hate to say it, but several good whacks around the head and shoulders is probably the best method! I've had to do it twice over the last couple of years to different dogs, and both have immediately been returned to a field of sheep and were fine, and now will never even look in their direction!
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Dogs, especially collie dogs, think and act so fast, that if you reprimand once they are getting stuck in or have done so, they may well misunderstand the reprimand. Collies in particular are very prone to thinking that any negativity from their handler means they didn't do it fast enough or thoroughly enough, so just makes them worse! ::)
When I had pet dogs, not working sheepdogs, I found it best to make it naughty to even look at sheep, so that the dogs would turn away from sheep and back towards me if we came across any unexpectedly.
Hence when I WWOOFed with lovely Horace, pet lambs would chase him about the place as he tried so hard to not be looking at them, and they tried so hard to make friends with him... :roflanim: