The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: JulieS on October 28, 2009, 02:03:39 pm
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I picked up 3 gilt GOS meat weaners on 18th October, so they are now aged approx 9 1/2 weeks.
This morning one of them was a lot slower out to see me and was not as enthusiastic as the other 2 to eat.
I've been out this morning, but when I came back only 2 of them were out and about. Which is unusual because they have been keeping together since they have been here.
The unwell one was on her own in the ark sleeping. She came out but was very lethargic and seemed a bit unsteady on her feet, but she had a drink and a wee.
I phoned the breeder who advises me just to keep an eye on her, as long as she is feeding and drinking.
I've given the vet a call (not sure if I'm over reacting, but want to be sure!), they are going to pop out later....Just wondered what everyone's thoughts are on this?
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You have done right to get the vet in.
Its hard to tell what is wrong, but say, if for the last 10 days that she has been bullied, or pushed out at food times by the other two (more dominant) sows, she could be under the weather and need feeding separately.
Are you feeding the same feed that they are used to? If you have changed feed she might not be getting the same minerals - but it is odd that only one is ill or off colour. Hopefully the vet pinpoints the problem for you - good luck - and let us know what happens
Julie
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Thank you Julie.
Waiting for the vet to arrive anytime now. I've separated her and she's cuddled up in a nice pile of straw, with plenty of water and food near to her. She's still lethargic, but no worse than she was earlier.
So fingers crossed.
Many thanks again Julie.
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I'd say its proberly nothing to do with feed nor bullying, if you weaners have come from the same source they should be well used to each others company then the pecking order will be well estabished already.
Also it doubtful it could be a mineral diffency or all 3 weaners would be down.
Does she feel hot or have a runny nose? Any heavy breathing? Dis coloured urine?
Could any number of infections, but the most common and likely is a touch of pneumonia - most likely caused from (A) the stress of the move and (B) the change in conditions, ie environment,weather-temp,change in ark ventilation.
Nothing to major to worry about, you should really have a bottle of pen & strep in the fridge as a first point of call for these situations, the vet will bankrupt you before you know it!
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JulieS, how did it go today? Hope your piglet is improving.
Billy, thanks for the lovely visit last weekend. It was great to me you, Kay and all the pigs. What is pen & strep?
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Hiya Mirimaram
Basically it is Penicillin
here's the link http://www.anupco.com/products/penstrep2020.html (http://www.anupco.com/products/penstrep2020.html)
We do not give it to pigs that are in the food chain, unless absolutely necessary,
and usually ask the vet beforehand.
I would not advise people new to pigs to be dispensing antibiotics to there pigs
themselves, until they are well established with a herd and experience JMVHO
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Many thanks for all the help and suggestions.
An update:
The vet came out yesterday evening, and after checking her over felt that it was probably stress/change of home etc, and to keep an eye on her overnight. I kept her separated last night, with food and water near her.
She had a peaceful night (I kept checking on her every hour, feeling like a new Mum again after all these years!! lol) She seemed a little brighter this morning, not interested in food but was drinking.
By lunchtime she was interested in some food and just now seemed almost back to normal again. So I've put her back with the other two and she seems to be OK.
I'll keep a watch on here again tonight, but I think she is on the mend now.
Many thanks for your suggestions and thoughts. :)
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Thanks for the update Julie - I am so glad she is improving ;)
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Glad to hear she's on the mend.
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BB is correct about having Pen Strep available, any smallholder/farmer should have this very good antibiotic to hand.. I cant understand why Snoopy you don't give it to pigs that are going into the food chain the withdrawal period is only 18 days from the last treatment, you say would only give a pig pen strep if absolutely necessary, well you wouldn't give it if it was not necessary surely.
Julie S, Pen strep is very good in fighting pig infections especially erysipelas which the majority of pigs carry and something minor will trigger it off, also joint ill, pneumonia, rhinitis etc.. When the vet comes ask him to show you the correct way to inject a pig, they'll be only to happy to show you, they will be far happy in showing you, than you getting him out of his bed at 3am just to inject a pig!!
Enjoy your pigs....
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When the vet comes ask him to show you the correct way to inject a pig, they'll be only to happy to show you, they will be far happy in showing you, than you getting him out of his bed at 3am just to inject a pig!!
Thats all very well.... do you think you/the vet coud tell my PIGS the correct way?! Cos I know, but they dont seem to...
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;D
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Very true Little blue!! I'm now the master at the quick injection!! I do cheat and put them in a farrowing crate for doing the routine injections/vaccinations etc..
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If your unable to inject your pig or too scared to do it then you should not be keeping livestock.
I remember back in the days of getting the vet out (which we all do when we are new to pigs and worried) But after seeing a newly qualified vet grab one of my well handled sows ears and tried to drag her round to get a needle in her I pretty soon learned to DIY!
As for not injecting pigs with antibiotics because their entering the food chain.. I'm soory snoopy but thats a load of cr*p from where I'm sitting, If you animal is suffering then it needs treating, your far more likely to do more harm not injecting than injecting.
Not mention, the affect you are potentially having on the end product if you don't treat.
Julie, despite the vets advice I would keep a close eye on all 3 of your weaners, something could well pop up again as something more sinister take this pigs behaviour as a warning, I'm not saying it will for sure but be ready to act if you see many more signs of this sort of behaviour.
Oh and Miri, last but not least it was great to meet you lot too! Your welcome anytime!
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Julie - Did the vet think it necesary to - and did he inject your pig with penicillin?
Billyberridge - just for your peace of mind...
My husband has trained with a Vet, and worked with local vets. He injects our animals, he knows what he is doing and how to do it, and also know not ti give antibiotics when it is not necessary - that is why they no longer work well on humans, people are too quick to inject, just as Doctors have been too quick to hand out prescriptions, it is all down to experience and common sense.
Also it is 28 days before animals can be accepted into the food chain after
injection where we live. This is specified by the vets that take the food into the food chain at the abbatoir.
As far as Erysipelas - we ourselves have never had any of our pigs suffer from this in the good number of years we have been breeding.
Good hygiene and the employment of cats to keep the rats away, usually means it does not get into your herd. Maybe we are just lucky to have a healthy herd.
We all have our own ways of dealing with things, and I advised Julie as I saw fit.
I think Billyberridge that you may have jumped to a few conclusions and read inbetween some lines here - not a good thing to do - it has upset me that you think I am talking a load of crap - at 50 years old and having run a pig keeping business as a couple, with a lot of experience, I can assure you, we do not talk crap - maybe you misunderstand my post or have for some unknown reason taken it personally. ???
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Snoopy, I'm not trying to get your back up I'm simply having my opinion dont take me the wrong way.
You can't say that its sensible for someone to keep livestock and no be able to inject them, especially on the scale most on here are keeping them, all vets do is upset the animals and kill any profit you stand to make.
I agree if in this case it was not needed to inject the pig in this then of course it was the right thing not to inject, but inject if needed and dont be scared to do so better to be safe thn sorry.
After all, what harm would a penicillin tablet do you if you didnt really need it? On the other side to the coin how much good would it do if you did need it?? No brainer really ;-)
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http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075
This is one reason why taking an antibiotic when you do not really need it
can cause problems in people.
It works the same in animals - although I don't have time to look for a link
at the moment.
I am allergic to Penicillin, therefore if it did get into my food, the food would
make me very ill.
Just a few thoughts on antibiotic use
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Sorry Snoopy its is not 28 days here and I cant see why its 28 days where you are. For Pen Strep slaughter for human consumption dates are 31 days for sheep, 23 days for cattle and 18 days for pigs. As long as the aforementioned dates are adhered to our abattoir accepts them.
As for erysipelas its present in almost all pigs and sometimes never manifests itself, good hygiene practice does not stop you getting it, it helps but it only goes part of the way in preventing it, the reasons for triggering it off is, stress of being moved/weaned, sudden rise and fall in temperature, muggy weather, more prevalent in straw based systems, on of the the worst carriers are birds namely pigeons, and yes rats do carry it, or it has been brought into your herd by purchase of stock and/or a visitor to your farm. Likewise we haven't had it as we vaccinate against it with Ery+Parvo rather than leave it to the farm cat!!
Like you I am also experienced in keeping pigs, I am the 4th generation of my family to keep pigs and have the benefit of a in house vet, namely my brother..
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Antibiotic usage and animals link from:-
http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/antibiotics/
Antibiotics and the Animal Industry
Industrial farms have been mixing antibiotics into livestock feed since 1946, when studies showed that the drugs cause animals to grow faster and put on weight more efficiently, increasing meat producers' profits.6 Today antibiotics are routinely fed to livestock, poultry, and fish on industrial farms to promote faster growth and to compensate for the unsanitary conditions in which they are raised.7
Modern industrial farms are ideal breeding grounds for germs and disease. Animals live in close confinement, often standing or laying in their own filth, and under constant stress that inhibits their immune systems and makes them more prone to infection. According to the Union of Concerned Scientists, as much as 70 percent of all antibiotics used in the United States is fed to healthy farm animals.
When drug-resistant bacteria develop at industrial livestock facilities, they can reach the human population through food, the environment (i.e., water, soil, and air),8 or by direct contact with animals (i.e., farmers and farm workers).
Industrial livestock operations produce an enormous amount of concentrated animal waste—over one billion tons annually—that is often laden with antibiotics, as well as antibiotic-resistant bacteria from the animals' intestines. It is estimated that as much as 80 to 90 percent of all antibiotics given to animals are not fully digested and eventually pass through the body and enter the environment,9 where they can encounter new bacteria and create additional resistant strains.10 With huge quantities of manure routinely sprayed onto fields surrounding CAFOs, antibiotic resistant bacteria can leech into surface and ground water, contaminating drinking wells and endangering the health of people living close to large livestock facilities.
Antibiotic Resistance, Public Health and Public Policy
Antibiotic-resistant bacteria is a growing public health crisis because infections from resistant bacteria are increasingly difficult and expensive to treat. As of this writing, the U.S. Congress was considering legislation, staunchly opposed by industrial farm lobbyists, which would ban seven classes of antibiotics from use on factory farms and would restrict the use of other antibiotics. This is a response to the fact that modern industrial livestock operations threaten to increase the prevalence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
It has been estimated that at least 18,000 Americans die every year from drug-resistant infections.11 In addition, the National Academy of Sciences calculates that increased health care costs associated with antibiotic-resistant bacteria exceed $4 billion each year in the United States alone12—a figure that reflects the price of pharmaceuticals and longer hospital stays, but does not account for lost workdays, lost productivity or human suffering.13
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:)i have to agree with pentre about the erysiplas pigs can get it for many reasons traveling to a show is one way we had one pig get sunstroke this year and the stress of the illness was enough to triger erysipelas he survived with a lot of tlc, it just somting that stress will trigger in some pigs eventhough most pigs are carriers and not down to hygine etc. as pentre said it could be the weather, weaning or just any change that has upset the pig. it is also known as diamond disease and is more prevelant in east anglia than anywhere else.
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What happens in an organic herd? Can they be innoculated for erysipalis? Justs curious.
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:pig: i am not sure about the organic route. the majority of pig breeders that show their pigs do not inject as the injection itself can trigger stress and thus trigger the erysiplis. as with most animal husbandry issues its down to the induvidual
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Few extensive farming setups have a problem with erysipelas plenty of space equals less stressed animals,but you can be unlucky and quick treatment is vital[hence a bottle of pen strep to hand].It is very obvious that a pig has this problem you'll know it when you see it [or you should if you've done your research before getting pigs] Who want's lame pigs or worse ones with dodgy tickers that can just drop dead in front of you cos you didn't treat or not treat quickly enough?Generally speaking organic set ups aim to avoid unnecessary treatments and aim to farm in such a way as to avoid the problem in the first place,but treatment can /must be given even on organic farms if it does develop.
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Thanks
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You can't say that its sensible for someone to keep livestock and no be able to inject them
Totally agree with that one!
My horses all got strangles a few years ago and i soon had to come familiar with a gigantor needle, and jab 3 horses, 2 times a day with 25ml of penicillin! Not for the feint hearted and squeamish, also got kicked a few times when they became wise of me! :-\
You soon learn to sharpen up! ;)
Danielle :pig:
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I personally wont take antibiotics if I can help it but would always treat a sick animal with them. There is a big difference between treating a sick animal and feeding antibiotics to make them grow faster.
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Sorry me being thick again . ... do antibiotics make animals grow faster? :pig:
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:pig:hi hilarysmum if your thick so am i, i never knew that antibiotics made you grow faster i thought that was steroids. actually i still think its the later ;)
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Just thought it might me the reason Im getting fatter ;D ;D :pig:
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I have simply quoted Snoopy's article posted a few days ago, according to it research in 1946 showed that animals given antibiotics grew faster. it also said that animals today are still routinely fed antibiotics to promote faster growth.
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I think it works on the principle related to hens, but not too sure
i.e . Hens can either make feathers or eggs - not both.
When a animal is a baby say, they can either grow, or fight infections - the reason why
hens are given antibiotics in their water every week, is so that they grow muscle (meat) instead of fighting infections.
Therefore giving something antibiotics could help it to grow ???
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Thanks that makes sense.