The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: goosepimple on May 21, 2014, 12:52:43 pm
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Ok - soay ewe 3 years old, not lambed or in lamb (ever). She had a skitty bum for ages, put it down to her eating sheep crunch over the winter and it not agreeing with her, stopped that, no change. Took to the vets, tested for fluke and worms, both fine, she looked over various things but couldn't find anything wrong generally, still skitty bum.
5 months on she is a skeleton with a fleece covering. She eats grass constantly and clean hay and we put out tap water rather than river water. Myself and OH got a hold of her the other day, cleaned her up, sprayed for flies, gave her a dose of Kaolin & Morphine (vet says won't do any harm) penned her with hay and tap water. Gave her claciject and combivit for 2 days, she was looking fine, no skitty bum. Went out 3 days ago she is lying down can't get up. Been syringing water, water with molasses for energy, natural live yoghurt with wholemeal bread liquified and today whizzed up green grass in the magimix with water and managed to get quite a bit down her, she was enjoying that - I'm having to put it at her mouth and she'll open it and eat.
She still can't get up - I sit under her and put her in an upright (normal) position so she can burp which she does - she looks ok, bum ok, but can't stand up - front legs have no strength, back legs more promising.. calcijected and combivited again this morning and will feed more wet grass and water shortly.
Am I torturing her - best to get her shot? She may take a while to die otherwise. How long should I give her before we resort to that? I know if she was human she could take a month or so to come good again - I'm happy to nurse her but if anyone has experienced this - am I prolonging the inevitable?
Thanks for reading.
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Oh dear! Amanda I can't offer any advice, but I suppose she is a sheep and many just seem to die for no apparent reason. Anyway good luck :fc:
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Did you give her flukicide anyway, regardless of what the vet said?
Was Johne's considered?
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Yes, give a flukicide - diagnosing fluke is dodgy anyway because of its seasonality.
I have had skitty Soays, for no reason than that is what they're like - apparently about half of the island population features skitty bums. If they persist I worm them, although not fluke as so far (19 years) we've not had fluke here.
BUT these skitty Soays haven't lost weight as your ewe has, so there's clearly something else at work.
Were she mine I would keep going with the TLC and kaolin and morph - not so much you block her up.
Soays tend to be skitty on lush grass, so I would suggest syringing mushed up digestives rather than grass. You could also make a porridge of ewe pencils or coarse mix and use a wide tipped syringe to give that, although you said you felt the skits originally came from eating concentrates.
Standing her periodically is excellent. Is she passing urine and droppings when she stands?
As for how long to persist, I think that depends on whether she shows any signs of improvement at all, or continues to get worse. Sheep can get cancers and other invisible afflictions which will kill them come what may. There are also obscure things like Johnne's disease, but I'm not familiar with the symptoms.
Give her a few more days, and as soon as you feel she is beyond your help, and it would be better to get her put down, then do that straight away.
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Good advice from Fleecewife. I think the flukicide dose is sensible, however diagnosing chronic fluke is very easy and accurate in this sort of scenario with a blood test and can be done in house at the vets in 20 mins. Plain tube (red top) look at albumin-globulin ratio. If low albumin and high globulin with these symptoms it is highly likely to be fluke (other blood indicators are raised GGT etc)
Modified as spelling and punctuation rubbish!
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If you give a flukicide I think you need to be careful with which one you use ... I think Closantel (Flukiver) is the best choice for chronic problems as it's less harsh on the system, she will be so weak now. And it will need to be repeated (not sure what duration sorry).
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My initial reaction was give her a flukicide anyway.
I am surprised at giving calcijet - what's the thinking there? I have only ever used it for pregnancy / post-partum problems.
If it isn't fluke then it could be Johnne's, and you don't want her infecting all the rest, so... (And be aware, the contagious agent is in the dung - our vet has even been warning us to ask the contractor to ensure he's thoroughly cleaned the muck spreader before he does ours :o.)
:hug:
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:fc: for her. You sound like you are doing your very best :hug:
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Initial tests months ago revealed nothing. Note what you say about the digestives fleecewife, will do. I'll fluke her again anyway as you all seem to think it worth doing and I'll google Johnnes disease too see if that fits.
Calciject and Combivit I thought may give a kick start Sally, knew it wouldn't do any harm.
She's just eaten another good handful of clipped grass in water and drank some water with my help (via that helpful turkey baster). Will fluke her at her next evening event before bedtime and see how she goes in the morning.
When I stand her up across my legs and hold her there we are getting good burps like winding a baby but she doesn't pee or poo. Lots of thunder going on in the gut when food goes in. She's completely floppy however, can't even hold her head up. Will keep going until the weekend then take it from there.
Thanks everyone, will report how it goes as it's always useful info for others in the future.
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Two things not so far mentioned. I now look to boost thiamine levels (vit B1) in sheep with any continuing gastric upset. And for treatment of chronic digestive upset look to restore healthy gut flora with a probiotic and continue to treat to allow for stabilisation to take place over a period of time. My experience with these problems is that once triggered they may stabilise for a time but will reccur eventually.
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Try some Vinegar in water about 10% vinegar better to use cider or wine this will stabilize the gut the other problem it may be is is johne's disease there is no cure for this the cow or sheep just wastes away hope this helps
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thanks last two inputs, yes she did clear up a while back but it came back...am using live yoghurt a bit each day. Vinegar is a new one to me although I've used it for hens so possibly worth a try too, many thanks.
She just ate 5 handfuls of grass and a slice of wholemeal bread and water but still have to hold her head up to do it. At least she's not nervous of me any more.
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I can't add anything to the advice given already but I do keep my fingers crossed for your girl - you are really doing all you can. :hug:
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My yardstick on whether or not to call in the knackerman is what the sheep's quality of life is like.
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My yardstick on whether or not to call in the knackerman is what the sheep's quality of life is like.
+ 1
All too often we can try to be kind but just end up prolonging the agony
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My yardstick on whether or not to call in the knackerman is what the sheep's quality of life is like.
+ 1
All too often we can try to be kind but just end up prolonging the agony
+2 I think when the time comes that any animal cannot get up and is down for a prolonged period of time its quality of life is zero and it may be time to call it a day :bouquet:
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:wave: i would guess johnes to . when i had soays i always found that if they were ill enough that you could catch them then they were goin to die anyway,mine were nuts .best of luck, but sounds like the end is neigh
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Yes langfauld, my human/soay relationship has become intense this past week, quite different from before when she would get within 1 metre of me and that was it (just not quite as far as the bucket!).
However, just been in and gave her some water with molasses drink and then was feeding grass in - she took it as before but is too weak to chew it, flushed a bit more water so she could swallow but her eyes are half shut and dulled over I can see and it looks like that's it really.
I gave her a kiss (ok ok) and a pat and I've left her to die. I won't check on her again until tonight so as not to disturb her.
I think perhaps it is Johne's disease in which case she may have come to me with it. My worry is that there was something left in the ground from the sheep here when we came. All our sheep may be contaminated so I'm going to investigate more and have tests done if not too expensive, will google and read more on the subject first.
Thanks all, great support as ever.
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Sometimes shepherding is a tough one. If it is Johnes it's quite likely she was infected when she came to you. Research still in progress on the routes of infection and likelihood of other animals in the flock/herd being carriers.
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simple annual blood tests (you can take the samples yourself) will help you build up a picture of what diseases linger on your farm/in your stock
Just test a few older ewes ---I do Johnes/Fluke/MV/Border/etc
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that's a good idea Tim, we'll be rounding them up for shearing soon so will do it then, thanks for that.
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Who do you do that through then Tim? The PSGHS weren't happy for me to sample and submit my own flock for MV I had to pay another vet to do it.
Assuming she does go toes up in the end organising a post-mortem is likely to give you a lot more information that may help save others
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Would it not be kinder to arrange for the end of her life to be swift and not lingering any more than she already has done? She will be dying of dehydration? starvation? :(
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Agree with Kanisha, just put her out of her misery, you have done everything you could :hug:
Respect, some people wouldnt have done that much. :bouquet:
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She could have scrapie, have your sheep been tested for scrapie? My advice is get her off the pasture and keep her off it, then maybe isolate her from the others and treat the pasture. Then watch her and see if she gets better.
Hope this helps
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Who do you do that through then Tim? The PSGHS weren't happy for me to sample and submit my own flock for MV I had to pay another vet to do it.
Assuming she does go toes up in the end organising a post-mortem is likely to give you a lot more information that may help save others
I test a portion of the flock every year (old and skanky ewes) so that I know the disease profile of my sheep . This keeps me abreast of what problems I have and gives my customers some confidence in the health status of the animals they buy from me
For inclusion in a health scheme a vet has to do the testing but otherwise anyone can do it
MV accreditation scheme gives something like 96% certainty that you are free of the disease whereas screening the oldest/worst condition sheep gives 75% certainty and is a lot cheaper (figures are rough as I can't remember exactly )
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Does sound a bit like Johnes... should ask the vet
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Such a sad post. Goodness you've tried really hard with this girl. Sometimes it is just a labour of love and you get that satisfaction of all that love and care eventually. This doesn't sound like one of those times for your poor little mite. I'd get a PM just to be sure that the rest of the flock aren't at risk. I so hope she proves to be your miracle and really feel for you :hug:
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Thanks all, yes she died of course poor wee thing, had to wait until I got my new computer to reply (old one died yesterday - computer that is). Sure it's Johne's disease so now wondering if I have put our new lambs at risk, am going to get them on fresh ground just in case and do some test as suggested. Thanks all.
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Aww, very sad :bouquet:
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Thanks all, yes she died of course poor wee thing, had to wait until I got my new computer to reply (old one died yesterday - computer that is). Sure it's Johne's disease so now wondering if I have put our new lambs at risk, am going to get them on fresh ground just in case and do some test as suggested. Thanks all.
Goats can get Johne's too... so test them as well if you think it could have been spread. Would she have come with Johne's or is it on your ground?
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She would have come with it Anke, but it can spread and you don't know it until the livestock is about 3 years old seemingly so having to keep livestock off this area for the time being, it would be the new lambs that would be at risk. Investigating now how long stock would have to be off the area, 6 months or more perhaps. I have spoken to a few farmers and shepherds about it and it's not uncommon so it seems.
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I am so sorry to hear that. I hope none of your other sheep have it and I hope all goes well.
Best of luck
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Thanks, me too. Vet is dealing with it so we will know what's what soon hopefully.
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Sorry for reviving this old and painful thread - the more I read about 'wasting diseases in sheep' the more I get the awful feeling that my sick ewe, also a Soay (just posted separately about her) might have Johne's.
Goosepimple, I wonder if Johne's got confirmed in your poor ewe, and if so how you managed your remaining flock?
Thank you so much, if you can shed some light on this.
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Sorry ladyK, just got this message today (25 Jan), not on TAS that much at the moment, my life has taken a bit of tangent.
Ewes were all clear, the remaining flock healthy and happy. Rare breeds have their own existence (or not) so don't know without further tests which I'm not paying for so long as no one is dying.
Hope all is well with you, sorry for the delay in replying.
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I got 3 Soay Ewes (gift!!)...looked healthy when they arrived at a friends place then one just died in the field so they buried it, then I came home and they told me on was weak and ill so they separated it and were feeding it, it looked ok but wouldn't stand up. I took all the other sheep they got me up to my land. The 3rd Ewe looked really ratty but bright eyed, then the other Ewe arrived up as she seemed stronger. I put her in the field with the others and within 10 minutes she was sitting down, then she hid under a low platform in the shed (since removed). We built her a lean to emergency shelter up beside the house where I could nurse her back to health. I hand fed her...., gave whey in a bottle, green leaves, grass, hay , chopped veg etc ...she too it all, after 4 days I took her to the vet who kept her in hospital and tried lots of things to keep her alive but she died the following night. An autospy was done and it was plain to see that she died of starvation because her stomach had never formed. I assumed the other was the same as they were the same age etc. Apparently if you bucket feed Soay lambs using pellets or processed feed they will not live too long as their stomach does not form! They must be fed by the mother and if bucket fed only get whole grains, if they cannot be fed by the mother for some reason they must get colostrum from some other animal and then give them whey etc in a bottle. With the 3rd who had a really terrible cough, shitty arse, runny poo, rage coat etc I really researched nutrition etc for sheep and in particular Soay sheep.
The vet gave me some homeopathic remedy for scarring after pneumonia which gives them a terrible on off cough. I gave that for 3 days and then started a regime of feeding her lucerne/alfalfa hay in the morning and evening, gave her vit c and apple cider vinegar in her water and a homemade mixture of Nutritional yeast, whole wheat berries, whole popcorn kernels, whole adzuki beans, and Kelp flakes. That was last January , to our great surprise in May, she had twins , one died just at birth and the other is a super healthy strong ram. She has become so super healthy, no cough, no worms, good coat, lots of energy .....she is happy out. so now I feed her as the rest but continue with a small amount of the grain mix, without the yeast once a day, vinegar in her water and vit C once a week, small bit of hay in the morning and small bit of Lucern in the evening and left out to roam the fields with a shelter. Hope this tfroghs some light on it for you .....I was lucky in that our vet is a rare sheep nut!!
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That's good advice, a good vet there. We keep 3 types of rare breeds one of which are north ronaldsays so we have to be very careful what we feed them, we don't feed any of our stock pellets (even the hens), I like as natural as poss. Rare breeds are flimsy compared to commercial sheep, no doubt about that.
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Thanks for the update GP! Glad it turned out well for the rest of yours.
Luckily my ewe seems to have recovered - she's even putting on a bit of weight now it seems.
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And thanks CA for sharing your story too. I'm always interested to learn more about this kind of 'supportive healing'.
Can you point me to the resources you used to learn more about Soay nutrition? I'd be very keen to learn more about that myself, and to gain the confidence get away from any kind of processed feed eventually.
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Rare breeds are flimsy compared to commercial sheep, no doubt about that.
Horses for courses, perhaps? I doubt a commercial ewe could successfully lamb outside on a mountain with little or no additonal feed.
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tutt, tutt, tutt.... burying sheep..... nough said.
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Is the poster from France? Perhaps different rules there. :thinking: