The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: clydesdaleclopper on April 14, 2014, 08:30:27 pm
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My BS girl who is due to kid on 3rd May, scanned with twins, is not well. We have had 2 vets out, neither of whom really have any idea what is wrong. On Saturday she didn't want to get up and come to get her breakfast. Vet came and said she has a bit of a temperature but it wasn't anything obvious like pregnancy toxaemia and gave us some antibiotics for her. She did get up and move around a bit on Saturday and we noticed she wasn't wanting to put weight on one of her legs. We found a nasty tick bite that was very swollen. Today she is back to lying down all the time. Got another vet out to look at her and she said that the tick bite wasn't likely to be the problem. She wondered if maybe her large udder was making her sore. There is no mastitis - her udder is not hot or lumpy and milk taken off was clear. Vet said maybe to strip some of the milk out to see if it helps. Her udder is very large compared with her companion who is due a week earlier. She is still on the antibiotics. Does anyone have any idea as none of our vets have much goat experience and I am really worried about her.
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Low on Calcium? I would give her a Calciject injection - mine get about 30 ml (for a GG) to 50ml (for a big BT), warmed up and in two or three places under the skin, normally just over her ribs.
if she isn't eating much, I would also drench with Ceto Phyton (or a twin lamb drench), more just to make sure she doesn't run out of energy.
Any titbits you can tempt her with?, Will she get up to go for a walk with you?
It could be that one or both kids inside aren't doing that well... :( the high Temp would point to some sort of infection?)
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Does she have some sort of bloat? (from eating I mean) Is it just the pressure of the twins inside - perhaps one sitting awkwardly inside - getting big, stretching her more than she can take - when is she due?
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Sorry forgot, you will need a 50ml syringe with a thick needle to get the quantity into her as quick as possible. They don't like it.
If she is due 3rd of May - no chance she was caught by billy three weeks before and is due to kid anytime now? Just a thought, I don't know your set up is re access to boy.
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I don't think she is low on calcium as she gets Alfalfa as part of her ration plus the yeast supplement that I feed has added calcium. She also gets the Dennis Brinicombe minerals.
She is eating as I have taken her food to her, though she is maybe only having half at a time. She is also having the haylage that I have put next to her. She just doesn't want to stand up and is making very pathetic sounds when I go and cuddle her.
What do you think might be wrong with the kids Anke?
Definately due on 3rd May as she was covered on 4th & 5th December and Billy only came to stay on 22nd November.
I don't have any twin lamb drench here at the moment. Until I can get some in the morning would something like some molasses help as I have that?
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Our 3 ate less and less as they came up to kidding, we've had them shut away from sheep so they could graze it all day. I would think if she has a sore leg, that with the extra weight of kids would make her not keen to get up. If she is eating away, on antibiotics and anti-inflammatories, id suggest getting her up, physically if need be, several times daily to allow her to wee and pass gas, but sounds like the treatments should help. One of mine did get milk fever, and I'm wondering whether its cos they had access to haylage, which is higher in calcium, just the last couple of weeks. Dairy farms often drop the cattle rations of calcium in the lead up to calving to get them to mobilise calcium from the bones and reduce the shock to the system that lactation brings. Tick may or may not be relevant, there are various things carried by ticks, but symptomatic treatment is often all you can do for the viral ones anyway. Temperature could suggest infection, and any infection or fever in pregnancy can cause abortion, so hopefully antibiotics and antiinflammatories will get it under control. :fc: for her and her kids, but sounds like she's getting all the nursing care to help her fight whatever it is off.
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Louping ill? (http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/louping_ill.pdf) Do you know if it is in the sheep locally?
Hopefully not, hope it's just that she's sore, tired, heavy and achey.
Ellie (my goat who's just kidded) had such a huge bag, I milked her off a couple of times, just to ease the weight and pressure (and then froze the milk, and then colostrum, in case someone else needed it).
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If she is still eating something plus haylage/hay she is probably not so bad that you need to do something right now (may be famous last words), and getting some twin lamb drench in the morning should be fine.
Yes having read quite a bit on milk fever, I am with fsmnutter on dropping the Alfalfa down, as Peter Dunn (in Goatkeepers veterinary book) also describes why. (as fsmnutter describes too)
Also - giving her a shot of Calciject is not causing any more harm, and may just give her the Calcium boost she needs - a goat(or sheep) that is lethargic and doesn't want to stand at this stage of pregnancy is most likely to be short of Ca (and energy) and therefore weak. Stress of any kind can also cause milk fever, so a fight/disagreement, you may not even have seen it?
I don't know what could be wrong with her kids, but the high temp is pointing to some kind of infection/inflammation in her system. Giving the dam ABs/AIs is really all you can do at this stage for the kids.
Is she a 1st kidder - their udders often are enormous quite a while before they kid, in comparison to older nannies who only "fill up" a day or so before they are due. That is definitely my experience. Unless the udder is hot/sore and possibly leaking I wouldn't touch it - if you do take milk off at this stage I would freeze, although I don't know when the nanny starts to make actual colostrum. If you do open up the teat canal now I would recommend to use a teat dip (or just a good antibacterial spray or iodine dip you use for kids' cords) to make sure you don't end up getting an infection/mastitis as dirt gets in when she sits/lies on her udder.
Sorry probably not much help here... an it's getting late. my brain is kind of gone to sleep...
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although I don't know when the nanny starts to make actual colostrum.
I had to take milk off Pom several times in the week or so leading up to kidding. I didn't think about freezing it in case of need but just used it. It was thicker than usual and with a distinct 'taste' that wasn't unpleasant but wasn't the usual taste of milk. I just assumed it was colostrum so I would say that it's probably there in the week before kidding.
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Have you checked on the symptoms of tick bite diseases such a lyme's? Ticks can carry several hundred types of disease so it seems like the most likely candidate to me if all else is well.
Our dog Fousty was very sick for a whole 10 months after a tick bite in her groin. it made her lethargic and affected her joints. She had inflammation and looked as if she was in pain all the time, couldn't jump onto a chair or the bed any more and just lay around feeling poorly. Her lymph glands in just her back leg muscles swelled up after a while, which the vet thought was very odd so they removed one to send away for analysis. Results came back rather inconclusive but that it was some inflammatory problem, just not exactly what.
She made a recovery just as fast as she went downhill after 10 months - the vet agreed with me that in hindsight it fitted the symptoms of lyme disease as well as anything else so we have always thought it was probably that. She can dance on her back legs again now (remind me to show your boys, they will love it) but does have a bit of arthritis in her hips occasionally ..... although now that could be her age of course.
Forgot to add, she had a high temp as well when she first became ill.
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I did wonder about Lyme's disease so I asked the vet to do a blood test for it yesterday.
I have read so much conflicting information on calcium intake in the late stages of pregnancy that I have been really wondering what is best to do as some sources recommend maintaining calcium intake. I will cut out the Alfalfa and give her hay instead of haylage and see if that makes a difference. She has a slightly high temperature rather than a lowered temperature so is milk fever less likely to be the cause?
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Yes, milk fever is usually early lactation, and often shows as weak, with head on ground, and cold, and wont usually eat very much. Temperature suggests infection or inflammation, which is being treated for. Louping ill or lyme's (or the other tick borne diseases) are mostly treated the same way as you are going, antibiotics, antiinflammatories and nursing. Just could take a while to come right.
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It is just my first point of action for any goat/ewe that is within 4 weeks of lambing/kidding and down/lethargic/no appetite - is to give a shot of Calciject, plus ceto phyton/twin lamb drench and in the case of goats a shot if combivit. It has so far always led to recovery.
I don't know anything about Lime's disease not being in a tick area and never had them on my goats.
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Calciject every time................it cannot hurt but it can save a life. The kids if born early (7/8days) will be viable............two weeks early and they wont be.
Pregnancy toxeania would be my thinking at this stage..............it is VERY common in goats.
Feed her with anything that she wants, even digestive biscuits !!! Ivy without the berries, fresh leaves.......all good. You have got to keep her eating................it can stop suddenly with Preg Tox. so be prepared.
She is most likely short of calcium.............the babies take a huge toll on the fam. Your Vets are really not very helpful................ask other goat keepers in the vicinity which practice they use.
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There aren't many goat keepers around here so that is probably why the vets aren't much help. Can I get the Calciject and Combivit at the ag merchant or will I need to get them from the vet?
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My ag merchant sells both. You need a big syringe and a wide needle too for the Calciject.
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Okay have sent OH off to the ag merchant :fc: How much do I give her?
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10ml combivit in muscle, 30ml calcium under skin on either side of ribs, i gave this to gossip for two days so 60ml each day.
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We have a diagnosis!
I called on a chap who lives locally who is a vet though not working at the moment but has goat experience. He gave her a very thorough check up and it turns out she has dislocated the knee cap in her hind leg. The ligaments are so loose that when he moved it it just popped back out again. So it's a case of intensive nursing care to keep her moving from side to side plus massage so that she doesn't get sores and supporting her to stand to wee and poo until she kids and then hope that the change in hormones helps it all to firm up again, otherwise she will need surgery to correct it.
I really hope she doesn't go overdue as she is a large girl and heavy to lift.
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Well they do say animals take after their owners...
;)
:thumbsup: for diagnosis, and sounds like she should be fine with the TLC until she kids
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Well they do say animals take after their owners...
;)
Yep I can certainly sympathise.
It's going to be difficult though as I had planned to move them into the stables for kidding but I don't see how I can get her up there. She is down in the bottom field and the shelter there is a huge pig arc (approx 20ft long) but there are badgers in that field so I really don't want her kidding down there. Also it kills my back bending down to go in and tend to her in the pig arc. Any ideas how we could move her?
Also do I leave her companion down there with her as she is due a week earlier and I had planned to bring them both up to the stables this weekend.
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Oh good, I'm glad you know what it is, and that she isn't 'ill' :thumbsup:
Might it be that her ligaments are already loosening up because of her pregnancy?
I'd move them both up to your stables now.
The way I move reluctant sheep is to put them in a quadbike trailer. If you haven't got a bike and trailer, the farmers around you will have such a thing - might one of them be prepared to help? When my ex was here and could drive the bike, I would ride in the trailer with my animals, partly to stop them jumping about and partly to reassure them.
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Wow - I haven't heard that before, but it does sound logical!
I would definitely move her up into stables, and yes as Jaykay says, see if you can carefully manoeuvre her into a trailer of some kind, and depending on access either quadbike or tractor/4 x4 and trailer. We often move our sheep in just the trailer with the high-sided mesh on, so no roof, and that works well. I guess she is not able to jump much at the moment... many farmers will also have one of the small trailers that they use to move one or two ewes and lambs to the field?
Good luck with her and hopefully it will sort itself out after kidding.
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So glad you have a diagnosis. Good luck with moving her but it is clearly the right thing to do.
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Not something anyone would immediately think of!
I know when I had my first child I was practically crippled for about 3 months afterwards, seemingly this can be quite common (I'm not heavy sized) in humans.
It's amazing what producing offspring does to the body. Hope she mends soon clydesdale.
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Well we managed to move her up to the stable with the help of the brilliant BALLOCH. I am really worried about the long term prognosis for her though as if it doesn't improve after kidding it doesn't look good :'( I'm so stressed with it all.
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My step-daughter was on crutches for each of her pregnancies, due to too-early-relaxed ligaments in her legs and pelvis. And other folk have clearly had the same experience themselves.
I bet this improves after kidding for her.
And there's physio you can do to stabilise a kneecap too. If you need it post-kidding, I'll PM you the details.
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Thanks Jaykay. I just hope we can get her through as she has still got quite a while to go and that's a long time to be down for.
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It is. Much as you'll feel you're hassling her, I would make her at least get up and take a turn around the stable couple of times a day.
Would your vet prescribe painkillers (Metacam injections for example) now you know what it is? I don't know if they're safe in pregnant animals, but the vet would.
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She is on Metacam at the moment but it doesn't seem to be helping much. I spoke to one of the BGS vets tonight and feel a bit calmer as he said he had a goat down for months with a bad back.
We are trying to roll her over or support her to get up 6 times a day and massaging her muscles but poor OH is having to do it as she is so heavy and I have a dodgy pelvis from the aftereffects of my pregnancies ::) I don't think this is going to help his dislike of the goats
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Oh CC, you have my sympathy. My OH is the same about my girls and lets me know every time I ask him to do anything more than carry the heavy stuff for me.
I think this loose ligament thing must be quite common, in humans at any rate. My friend had similar trouble with her pelvic area of her back through most of her pregnancy. It soon was back to normal after she gave birth though. Hopefully, it'll be the same with your girl.
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Loads of willow branches - contains a natural form of aspirin. And if they peel the bark off - it entertains for hours...
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Hopefully he'll bond with her as he's been having to help her so much.......(how can anyone dislike goats?)
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Well I think I have just accomplish the world's most difficult task :) Her udder was so tight I needed to milk some of it off as I was concerned about mastitis with her lying on it all the time. So I had to milk her whilst she was lying down and she has never been milked before. I think I deserve a choccy biscuit.
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I think you deserve the whole packet of choccy biscuits.
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Bet that was fun ::)
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I agree with Daisy's mum - a whole packet.
Did she try to get up when you started milking her?
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No she didn't but she kept rolling herself upright so I couldn't get at her udder and she is bloomin heavy to shift over.
I am so worried about her. I really hope it gets better once she kids as it would break my heart to lose her.
I am now going to have to find out about bottle feeding as my intention was to leave kids on and only separate them at night once they are a bit older to do a once a day milking. They won't be able to feed from her if she is down. I guess I'll have to try to perfect my milking a recumbent goat technique and then give it to kids in their bottle - eek.
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You'll get Calciject at Harbro in Huntly - Calciject 20 is the one for sheep so probably best for goats too.
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I have only just seen since, I have a fantastic Goat vet I could of put you in contact with, she works for Glenythan vets, she was a goat keeper for a long time. Anyway, I do hope she gets thru kidding ok, please let me know how it goes.
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Hiya. What a nightmare. Nowt easy with goats!!
Rosemary also a fantastic painkiller with the willow. Fresh or dry. I've given as much as they want when needed. Good luck with her. :fc::fc:
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Have you googled 'goat sling', it's worth thinking about - maybe fixing up a pulley system to get her up enough to milk her - also - I bought one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dansha-Farms-Goat-Sheep-Cow-Battery-Powered-Milk-Machine-One-Quart-Two-Teat-/200949480777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec985bd49 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dansha-Farms-Goat-Sheep-Cow-Battery-Powered-Milk-Machine-One-Quart-Two-Teat-/200949480777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec985bd49)
which could be used even with her lying down
Fingers crossed that she soon gets better :fc:
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I asked my vet about slings but they weren't very helpful. One said it might squish the kids.