The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: john and helen on April 07, 2014, 09:41:32 pm
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;D this one should get some great answers ;D
OK … most of you on here, it would have started as the dream…..
how did you 1st manage….
now i have kept the chooks and ducks for years , but the 4 legged things are going to be a totally new game to me,
you can ask 10 people one question and get 10 different answers :roflanim:
i have done research research research ….and i know , somewhere down the line i will cock up ..
how did you get on in the beginning
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Its easy, you just learn by your mistakes. :raining:
I was brought up on a smallholding, worked on the farm next door from the age of 13, eventually got my own smallholding in 2007, but still make mistakes. It so different when you are the one making descions. When i moved here it was about the love of out doors, having space for the tractors that were my dads, and giving my kids the chance to grow up in the environment i did.
7 years on i have begun to seriously realise i have an assett i could make money out of, so far ive just enjoyed being here , spent a lot of time putting right 20 years of neglect, ive made hay and got it wrong, planted hedges and got it wrong, grown potatoes and got it wrong, but ive had loads of fun and this year have been spending a lot of time trying to prioritise whats important to me. We have sheds full of stuff we never use, its time for a sell up and buy some things which make life easier with th ejobs we find ourselves doing all the time.
Trying to come up with ways of making money is hard. Farmers do everything better with economies of scale ans subsidies to help them. So much smallholder stuff is time consuming , but we both work full time, so how do you maximise on that great assett of space which we have and the average person doesnt ?
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great answer stu……
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I started off sharing two goats with a 'friend' who lost interest after two months when the one in milk developed mastitis and told me I had to take 'my' goat out of her garden (then sold 'her' goat). My OH said I could have just the one (after saying he didn't mind me having goats so long as they weren't in our garden. I then had to find out something about mastitis so rang the local goatkeepers club. I was put in touch with a former goatkeeper who lived near me and who was a great help. She gave me a couple of books and I learned what I could from them but mostly from doing it.
I now have two goats - soon to be three or more - and still am learning ten years later.
The growing of vegetables, on the other hand, is in my blood. I am from a long line of gardeners and descended from market gardeners.
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I WWOOFed for a year. Learned loads, not least about myself and what really matters to me.
http://www.wwoof.org.uk (http://www.wwoof.org.uk)
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We started with a big veggie plot and tried to grow all we could. At the end of the year I calculated that I had earned 20p an hour. So that was never going to be a business. Started with chickens and eventually made a tiny profit on eggs, probably equating to the same hourly rate- 20p. Got some sheep to save cutting the grass and using all that fuel and to fill the freezer. They gave us a few problems but we were doing better. Still other stuff to try, but we had to retire to find the time first- now we have to find the property to do it on.
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When we moved here we had already kept chickens. Like you, it was the 4-legged's that were to be our challenge. i say 'our' but to be totally honest with you, my husband has no interest at all in livestock. In fact he can't stand anything to do with them, that said he will help out with manual things such as fencing repairs and shifting dead animals for me .
I learnt from mistakes, awful mistakes in the first instance. We lost 2 goats partly due to me (ignorantly) buying in unvaccinated, never wormed goats and then not knowing how to treat their illnesses and neither did the vet.
Joining a local goat society rectified these issues and monthly meetings taught me so much. The goats we have now are very happy and healthy.
Next we allowed others to graze their sheep on our land. It doesn't work unless you have strict rules, i found!! Both times sheep were hit by fly strike and the owners upon being phoned, said "we'll be there in a bit" - 2 days later...still no show so i took matters in to my own hands only to hear that they didnt' want chemical intervention (tough!) so after that we bought in our own flock...
I find it hard to learn from books to be honest, the most insight and helpful advice I've found has been on here. Most people are very helpful and non-judgemental.
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We started very slowly. We knew we wanted sheep and chickens so we started with five ewes and three chickens. Got all the fencing done first. We've learned as we have gone along. There have been a few casualties but not many. Once we get one thing under our belts then the next stage manifests itself.... Then we save up for the next thing which gives us time to refine I and research our ideas.... And so it goes in indefinitely.
Fortunately we are not in a position to have to make any money out of the venture. It's all purely creative fun and a great way to spend/waste money!!
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We've only been here for 2 years and it has been a steep learning curve. Apart from a dog and cat all animals were new to us.
We had (and lost due to a fox) 6 chickens and 2 geese. We now have 5 chickens, 5 ducks, 6 sheep, including a ram and so far 4 lambs with 2 more ewes in waiting. We have also had a couple of sets of weaners raised for the freezer.
As stufe has said you learn by your mistakes. Have the vet on speed dial ;D And make friends with the local farmers. Buy a couple of good books and lots of questions to this forum.
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As a child worked on a caravan site with a farm attached, they bought me a brand new tiny Kubota when I was 9 in exchange for me emptying the bins, I worked there part time until 18, so unloaded hay, slept in the barn at lambing time, bottle fed lambs dipped them, sheared them, I pulled a calf out of a cow. At about 25 I had 2 chickens & veg plot in my garden, then I went on a chicken husbandry course, we learnt about farming chickens and economics of farming (I was hooked), I then went on a pig husbandry course on a farm, the old man there was exceptional in my last week (16 week part time), he became very ill, I stayed full time ish as he had no staff on the pig farm, just 1 in the dairy unit, then he ended up in hospital, never to return his wife asked if I would run the pig unit until it was sold, I agreed 450 pigs, full breeding unit, sow shed & 30 fattening pens 6 months on and all had gone, I then worked 1 day a week on another pig farm for my own interest to see an alternative way how it was done, since then just chooks & veg, I'd love to be a full time farmer/smallholder but it will only ever be part time for me. Last year I helped out looking after someone else's lambs.
The way I see it is we would never get any money out of it because we would want to re invest any money into more kit, stock, land etc therefore never feeling any better off.
We spent several years 1996 - 2010 applying for county council farm tenancies, I think that's the only way any one can actually make a profit. we also explored your route of buying just land then applying chapter 7 for an AOC unit.
John/Helen don't buy that other land, buy some of this by me then we can (if you wanted to) run it together, my knowledge, your ideas, my gate sales pitch, my stock of equipment hens etc. or we could just rent half off you.
:thumbsup:
The bit about learning from your mistakes, well we have never made any mistakes :thinking: sometimes things don't quite go as they are intended :innocent: (mistake) :roflanim:
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The bit about learning from your mistakes, well we have never made any mistakes :thinking: sometimes things don't quite go as they are intended :innocent: (mistake) :roflanim:
:roflanim: :roflanim:
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Day 1- Feb 10th 2010- a 4 1/2 acre field of docks with little adequate fencing and dreams of 2 donkeys, a tractor and a Dexter cow.
Day 2- Feb 11th 2010- sister in law arrives at 6 in the morning with 2 chickens in a cardboard box. nowhere to keep them so stick them in the garage.
Today- 8th April 2014- still no donkeys, no tractor and no Dexter BUT- 19 sheep, 10 chickens, a huge veg patch and an ex shop freezer bulging with lamb and pork.
Along the way we've learnt by reading, by making mistakes ( not too many as they need us to get it right), a growing love of the palett and all you can make from it and TAS.
We've had goats (didn't like goats!), pigs, (loved pigs and we'll be having them again), hatched our own chickens , lived through 3 lambings and realised that with our own full time jobs too there is no time for anything else in life. today we feel more confident and assured in the day to day job of looking after our stock, tho there is always something new to challenge you. still HOPELESS and I do mean hopeless at making money from it. Almost a shepherd but def not a shopkeeper- there's always next year
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I grew up in the town but our garden backed onto a nature reserve. Dreamed my time away watching Great Crested Grebes in their courtship dances, foxes playing on the frozen lake, birdwatching and the like. Dad trained/ trialled/ showed gundogs and so spent a lot of time on farms/ estates and spent a lot of time with farmers/ gamekeepers and country folk. Dad always kept chickens, ducks and grew veg.
When we married we were lucky enough to have a large garden and grew veg and kept hens. The teacher at my sons primary school told me that some of the children had told her that we lived on a farm! They thought it was great coming to play and picking salad and collecting eggs for their tea.
When OH got a job working mainly from home we 'headed to the hills'. About 5 years ago now. We arrived here with 2 dogs, cat, house rabbit, goldfish, stick insects and chickens and 2 children. What a journey! Our intention was just to be in the countryside that we love and carry on doing pretty much what we already were and for the children to grow up in a beautiful place.
Soon realised that we needed to think about keeping the grass down on our couple of acres ..... hence sheep. Became friends with our closest farmer because of our shared love of dogs .... my gundogs and his collies. He grazed our land for a while and we were responsible for keeping an eye on the flock and calling him if we spotted anything ..... did catch him peeping over the hedge and checking them though! He would then deal with any problems with us watching. Also shouted us if he was drenching, shearing, docking, bottling lambs and so on so that we could watch and learn. He has been our biggest help with sheep keeping which was new to us. Also read lots, including on this forum ;D. Much of the rest we were already doing. Of course we have more hens now and quail.
Other neighbours have taught me to make jam, chutney, elderberry cordial and so on.
For us our farming/ smallholding neighbours have helped no end. Many are quite elderly now and love passing on their knowledge and skills. Farmer is teaching my son to catch moles at the moment for example. Think it's really good to try and become part of the rural community ..... local knowledge and support.
So far :fc: not too many mistakes. Our sheep on the whole seem fairly hardy and maybe that has helped. With hindsight we would have bought a smaller house and more land and more outbuildings. That was our mistake.
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I grew up in a farming community but not a farming family, tho my brother went to be an agri contractor after years helping out on local farms driving tractors etc. We had a neighbour's lambs in the paddock in spring but no responsibility for them, we had neighbour's ponies tethered on the lawn or using the outbuilding and I got to knowing a bit about them through hanging out with their kids and learning to ride in that very old way, halter, leadrope and that's it, flat out gallop up the stubble ;) We picked tatties for pocket money, stacked bales to be seen as grown up and strong, mucked out to be around the hunters and eventers.. Then Dad died and we moved to town and my life ended for years.
Then I started riding again, got a pony on loan at a DIY livery/showing/driving yard and learned a lot by osmosis and trial/error. Worked with showing and breeding and driving folk for years, bred my own, ended up with a small stud of showing/breeding ponies and had to buy land as it was cheaper than paying the rental/livery and travel bills. Then trial and error again for years, volunteered with other breeders etc to keep sources of ready info.
Got this place after selling up the field I had, and it had an orchard and a large garden so I started growing more seriously than I had in years tho I pottered about occasionally in a back garden of a rented cottage. My mum had an orchard and veg garden back at home before dad died so I'd picked gooseberries and apples and watched her dig (helped carry worms to improve the soil!) and helped her stir marmalade and chutney, watched her make rag rugs and patchwork quilts and crochet blankets and knit wee jumpers for orphans (she did that right up to her death). Had no outbuildings so got local farmer's son to build a pole barn and then someone else to put on an extension and have been living with the learning from those experiments ever since! Had a friend married to a fencer so he did a few bits for me and I saw the basics but lacked tools and strength, had local agri contractors in and learned who did a good job, who charged and who overcharged, who was likely to turn up when booked..
Got a few veg beds dug and have had mixed success since, one year mounds of courgettes, nothing the following two, one year great beetroots, then nothing but leaves full of holes, seem to do well with runner beans but no longer like them.. Joined the orchard group to learn about the trees and fruit sales and get an outlet. Bought 4 POL pullets from one of the trusted farmer's sons, started small, then took on more and more again, still learning there too. Kept considering sheep and went to visit a few folk that had them, but never made the plunge. Ditto cattle but I had both sheep and cattle in as grazing lodgers at the old field in return for use of stubbles and winter grazing up the hill so I got to know the routines, just not the skills ::) I used to date a falconer so know enough about manning and flying birds to have a go but if I were going to buy one (I'm not) then I'd still have it all to do over and still get wrong. I've had hamsters and kept/bred tropical fish with greater and mostly lesser success, once had a guinea pig and a rabbit but gave them to a friend, handled snakes, seen zoo animals in the wild and walked around llamas and alpacas in Peru and in Scotland! In fact I've gone everywhere I could to find more species of animal, bird and plant/tree life to not know about ;)
I reckon you never finish learning, like you never finish the maintenance, you just take custody of land for a while and do what you can with it, then let someone else sort out what they consider your mess and make their own instead ;) As far as I can see it never makes money, not in my hands anyway, but I've no greater set of memories than my travels and my view from the top field. no money, no health, no regrets..
Every year I struggle more and know I need to give up and move to a smaller land free facility rich house, a couple months on and I'm planning what to breed, what to grow, where to change, what to fix and what else I could get up to here.. I wish I was more sensible, sometimes, but with a newborn foal in the field today isn't one of those days ;)
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Grew up in the countryside with chickens, ducks, ponies and helped out with the local sheep and occasional cow. Moved away to university and missed it all for a few years. I have had a dream of self sufficiency from as far back as I can remember. I now live in the country side, with chickens and couple of unplanned geese. There are plans for four leggeds but have to wait another few months. We have the fields waiting, but am having a baby first, I'm not very mobile just now, but hopefully will improve by summer!
So far my mistakes have been being too soft, letting the cockerels grow up too long, then realising I've wasted money on food for them and there's still no meat of them, which is a waste.
Or culling nice looking surpluses cocks, then having people come asking if I have a decent breeding cock they could buy!
Didn't really plan breeds and pens, They're big enough, but needed more!
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WOW…. that was some great reading, :thumbsup:
i think every newcomer should read this thread,
plumbs, i have found your site on FB ….YOU REALLY ARE AN INSPIRATION, as all of you are,
love the stories ... :thumbsup:
andy…to late mate..we have fallen in love with the land, and out of all the land we looked at…this one gives me a good feeling, maybe its because everyone has said..why the hell you buying steep land for ;D
i want to make enough money ,so it pays for its self, i have a few ideas on getting, and keeping some regular customers….which will involve a little investment, no more than a add in yellow pages …
i just can't wait to get stuck in :excited: and of coarse, i will be running a video blog ;D warts and all
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I am just starting, had a few chooks for years, got a pony and 16 sheep, 9 due to lamb and lambed 6 last year, have helped out lambing on friends farms for years so not too worried about that plus mum is a vet, but the biggest trouble im having is finding more land. My field is not big enough and i am looking to extend and get more poultry! any ideas of where to look or ask would be lovely!!
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see if there is a local smallholding page on Facebook for your area… :thumbsup:
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I was born into a farming family so it's sort of second nature but there's always stuff to learn & the industry is always changing x
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By accident !!! I jumped in with 2 feet and planted every veg I could think of - within 3 weeks of moving here we had chickens, ducks within a month then 2 pigs within 3 months. Neighbours ploughed up land for us to grow our winter store veg, gave us breeding rabbits and access to their fruit tress for animal feed, cider and winter stores. We also got given some woodland to cut trees for fuel.
In summary - we had no plan, did little research and rather fell into things that well intended neighbours initiated by their kindness. We are pretty much self sufficient in meat, veg, fruit, fuel and we swap produce when we can - I am not sure if I could have planned all this but feel very lucky.
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When I started a few years ago, with 1 acre on loan, and a rather vague idea of when I'd get my marching orders, I started with grass seed (land had been bulldozed), then sheep & electric fence then chickens in that order.
Now I've got my own place it was stockfencing (still ongoing), pony, more sheep, and new chickens. still to come: build a house, goats and/or pigs, and would like a house cow one day, but I don't want to get in over my head as each new species is a bit of a learning curve and there's only one of me.
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Where to start.... we moved to a small village outside Cambridge when we got married, I was doing software stuff for various start-ups and my wife was training to be a doctor. She won our first three chickens at the church summer fete and we slowly expanded into breeding our own, keeping ducks for meat and growing veg - all in a fairly big back garden.
Then my wife had the opportunity to do her elective where she had to practise medicine anywhere in the world for a few months. I wanted us to try Orkney (where she's from) but she came back from church one day and said ' we need to go to Africa' so we did. I found a water aid charity who could use my help and she practised medicine in a rural health clinic in Uganda. When we returned, on the tube back in to London from Heathrow, I saw a carriage full of people looking sad despite the fact that they were clearly rich - they were wearing shoes for goodness sakes! That got me thinking more and more about doing something useful here instead of wasting my life away in the office and after a summer spent running a 'pig club' (six families, three pigs on some squatted land) I knew what I wanted to do.
I found this place in the neighbouring village up for auction, six acres and a falling down farmhouse and we went for it. Moved in just before Christmas and our youngest (of three) was born a couple of months later - in the sitting room half an hour before the midwives arrived! The next week we advertised for members to come and help us start a community farm and within three weeks we had eighteen families signed up to receive weekly eggs, half a pig and a Christmas goose in return for £20 a month and a morning's hard labour every month. Since then, we've had a go at so many things constantly growing the farm and the community - it just gets better, and I think the mistakes are slowly getting fewer!
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Benkt - I love your story :) I do hope that you plan to write a book one day! Would love to hear more.
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Maybe! I turned down a book deal this winter as I had new chicken runs to build but perhaps one day I'll have time..
Thanks,
Ben
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Slowly is my answer! Veggie and fruit patch, orchard, chickens, pheasants and partridge were all we could manage for years. It was always my dream from when I was very young to live in harmony with the land, my own patch of land that I could look after, and it matters to me where my food comes from. If it were possible for one person to grow/raise/make everything this modern life necessitates then that's what I'd be doing... one step at a time I guess! ;)
A chance conversation and a move to Wales later, plus years of wearing down OH and he's got the bug too (not that it took much, he was almost there anyway). I have to be honest and say that TAS and the friends I've made through it have helped no end. The bee course was booked not long after we arrived and Backinwellies has my eternal thanks for the sheep fix, along with a few others from the Feb TAS meet who convinced OH that full steam ahead on the sheep front was a terrific idea, what were we waiting for?! - you know who you are, thank you :hug: I think the only mistake so far has been in waiting so long to make it all happen; two legged were never going to be enough, it was only ever a matter of time before multiples of four (and six, in the case of the bees) joined them!!
Benkt, I agree with Plumseverywhere and shall await the book eagerly.
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Keeping up with this thread .... makes good reading. Think it is my OH who should write a comment as he is the complete novice.... and keeps telling me he doesn't see what I see in the animals (then I catch him talking to a chicken!).
I have a farming family but grew up in Surrey surrounded by pony mad rich girls! Hence I don't do horses! I was the only person in school to do an O'level in agriculture (we had a school 'farm' which until I came along had been for the 'naughty boys').... so I was a complete fish out of water! School careers teacher told me that you couldn't do a degree in agriculture ... good job I knew better!
So 3 years of dairy experience and a degree and I had my dream job... teaching livestock in an Ag college... loved every day of my 21 yrs. So plenty of practical knowledge but no money!
7 years on (redundancy, and 2nd marriage later) we have just done a year here on our smallholding in Wales...... having lots of experience is great but doing your own decision making and management is a whole new ball game. Started with 16 acres and plans for a poly tunnel, poultry, sheep and cows and pigs (and anything else I could sneak past the OH!!). We now have 28 acres (a lucky acquirement when neighbour decided to retire ) ducks, hens, 15 breeding Llanwenog ewes, 2 Dexters and 2 Shetland cows.... and lots of lambs!
I am still learning lots everyday .... and learning what I had forgotten I know! I talk to farmers, read books and TAS ....
Biggest mistakes so far have been not to trust my instincts ... have lost a ewe and a lamb or two because I was too cautious and didn't go with my instincts at the time.
Biggest challenges (apart from the wettest winter ever on a farm named Nantygroes which means 'crossing streams') have been related to trying to obtain drugs and fertilisers and almost everything! for small numbers/acreages! Just found out that nitrogen fertiliser cant be sold in anything less than 600Kg sacks ... and delivery is a min of 6 tonnes!!!
.... onward to year 2 ....
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Sow clover or grow legumes , no need to buy poison then , oops . I mean nitrogen .
The local agri store should deliver just one sack , if you must buy it , but you would maybe have to pay delivery .
Failing that , a local farmer would buy an extra one for you at cost surely .
But if it is just for grass , why use it at all .
Farmers only need it for max production of grass for silage etc , plus the grass they have may be one of the new varieties that require nitrogen in huge amounts .
But clover will supply all that a good mixed ley needs .
The deep green lush fields are only really obtainable by farmers who may tend to grow a monoculture grass , or a limited number of modern grasses , and pump tons of nitrogen on the field .
More traditional leys , with more varieties of grass , and that need far less nitrogen , will not only look different , but they will get all they need from clover , as long as you are not hammering the field for maximum production 365 days a year .
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We were fortunate when we decided to get paid what we felt we were worth rather than what an employer was going to pay us.
I am an electro mechanical engineer with all sorts of other skills & qualifications as well . Alison used to be a top flight PA plus she has a degree in personnel management and an A level GCE in accountancy .
We undertook a government sponsored local business enterprise trust course , had a guy seconded in from Lloyds bank small business division to oversee the course & take us through current rules & regs plus tax liabilities , as well as having lectures from several others appertaining to how to successfully run a small business and how to make sensible business plans and development plans .
We produced an acceptable 1 , 2, 3 & 5 year plan , They gave us match funding identical to our financial input.
This planning & funding was the real help we needed .
We joined the local Countryside Watch Scheme ( CWS) , paid for & put up a three x two foot ( 900 x 600 mm ) CWS sign on our garage door & added a few dummy cameras I made myself complete with winking LED's around the property & buildings .
Became part of the local CSW ring around group & took up gundog training ( something I've always had a deep desire to do ) .
We suddenly found all sorts of people who would stop by and chat with us & offer us help or advice , as for the most , they were all the local farmers & small holders.
We designed our life on the small holding , planned it to to the N th degree as a progressive set up & stuck to it . ( this included education for things we'd need to learn ) .
I reckon we'd still be there but for the disabling back injury at my day job . The plan was for me to work till we had netted five times my BT income ( £78 K pa ( ish ) then put in for redundancy at work, then work 18 hr. days for a year on my own.
Towards the end of that year to take on two well paid honest reliable part timers and then for Alison to take redundancy a year later .
The eventual plan was for us to employ seven people & do several in house animal husbandry training courses
As a result of everything I firmly believe that continuous education towards your goal is absolutely necessary . Without it , at the best , you will stand still , whilst others progress forward , so in effect you end up going backwards .
Oh ... The plans of mice & men ! :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: