The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Raine on March 19, 2014, 08:19:52 pm
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Hi all
Just had a dog attack. First time anything like this has happened.
A husky "escaped" from their owner and got into our field. I got home from work to see it in with them, dropped everything and tried to catch the dog. People on the foot path the other side of the hedge just watched and even video'd it. The dog was grabbing at the hind quarters of my sheep (fortunately very woolly, but then went for the lambs. At that point the mum started lunging at it and the dog grabbed her muzzle. At that point a bystander came to help me get the dog off (as it refused to let go) and I dragged it into a lockable stable.
Phoned the police (been 3 hours now and still nothing back), phoned the vet (who turned up quite quickly) and the dog owners turned up. They didn't have any money to pay the vet bill and wanted the dog back as it has had puppies recently (they can afford them though....sorry, ranting :rant: [size=78%]). [/size]
Sheep has an inch gash through the side of its face and a couple of other puncher wounds. Weeks antibiotics and three days anti-inflammatories.
Too stressed to eat. Worrying that the other sheep are going to either lamb early or miscarry due to it all. The ewe with twins is going to be a right pain to keep in so I can inject her (as she hated it just after she lambed early).
At least she is up and being noisy!
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Grrrrrrr, this makes me so mad!
You should have got something in writing saying they'll pay when they've sold the pups maybe?
Irresponsible and selfish of them
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You had more self restrain than I probably would have - please persue - dog owners (I am one ) all have to know this is not acceptable, ever, not even once
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Police rang, got the owners details, then rang me back to say that they are actually correct!
Still think the chance of getting money is slim to non-existent, but must have put the wind up the owner having the police ring.
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Regardless of what owners say about not being able to pay, they are still responsible for the damage to your sheep and therefore liable as far as I know. You would have been in the right to shoot the dog while it was attacking the sheep.
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If the police have an incident number and the dog owner has been traced and said it was his dog, there should be a criminal prosecution and so the dog owner has to pay for any damage (vet bills etc). If they refuse it could all go through the courts...I think the NSA is still collecting evidence of sheep worrying - worth checking their website.
If you have NFU insurance (including your livestock) you could speak to them and see if they would help in recovering costs or with legal advice.
Seems that Huskies are not getting a good press at the moment... but I always thought that they are not a particularly good breed to keep as a pet dog...
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my understanding is that a Husky is a beautiful yet challenging dog, only for the serious dog owner who knows what they are doing. I read somewhere once that you can take the husky out of the tundra but not the tundra out of the husky- destined to run, needing huge amounts of exercise and an avid chaser of anything furry- or in this case woolly .i'd have wanted to shoot the flippin thing though would probably have felt more like shooting the owners. Not got money to pay the vet bill ? so what happens if their dog or one of its pups needs the vet ? ridiculous idiots- bring back the dog licences I say and a meaningful way of checking that with the most challenging breeds there is some method of ensuring prospective owners are actually competent. sure none of this is practical but hearing about your incident cant help but leave me wishing it was. as others have said they should be paying for the damage their incompetence has caused.
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:bouquet:
It's horrible to go through this, and it makes you feel so vulnerable and powerless to look after your own livestock.
Don't let the dog owners off the hook. Take them through the small claims court if need be.
I don't know why it is suddenly apparently ok for dogs to chase sheep. ???
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Sorry but if that had been my sheep that dog would be toast!
I hope the police got the video evidence!
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Sorry - have you given the dog back to them? Bloody dog. You would have been well within your rights to shoot it
dont let them get away with this
was the ewe in lamb?
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Don't have a go at the dog.
No such thing as bad dogs......just bad owners.
Should have said 'bloody dog owners'
If it had been me and I'd had a gun I would have shot it.
Sounds like the owners got professional advice...have I understood correctly ?....are you saying you had to give the dog back because they said it has puppies at home relying on it ? And the police said that is correct.
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The dog should be destroyed. To many excuses made for dangerous dogs. We had a pile of chooks killed and when I told the police I wanted the dog destroyed they said it would be a shame for the dog. Which it would be but what about the pile of dead hens? For hens, read sheep.
It's unfortunate that dogs suffer because they belong to idiot owners but that's the way of it.
And if we really want to control the idiot owners by some dog licence system, we'd better be prepared to destroy a lot of dogs or it will simply become an expensive and useless administrative exercise.
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Sorry your flock have been subjected to such an attack, hope your ewe recovers quickly and the others don't lose their lambs.
I would think the owners would be covered by their home insurance so it would probably be worth making a claim for vets costs, any further loses if the occur, your time looking after the injured ewe and stress caused etc.
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You can take something like this through the Small Claims Court, at minimal cost to yourself. Huskies are not good pets, unless the owners train them properly and are willing to run them, in control, for 5 to 10 miles a day.
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This really isn't fair, you should never have had to be in this position :(
I start chuntering every time I see a dog off it's leash. I think it's rank owner-arrogance to insist they have control and that a dog won't run off, disobey them, cross the road or do anything else they don't want it to do.
A dog has a mind of it's own and no matter how well behaved they are usually, any dog can have that moment of uncharacteristic behaviour that has this kind of devastating outcome.
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Raine :bouquet: Just dread that happening.
I think Blacksheep could be right about the home insurance. A lady I knew 'lost' her spaniel when walking it in an enclosed woodland used by dogwalkers. Turned out a fence had come down, sheep got into woodland and her spaniel chased. She lost the dog for several hours but heard that it had been caught by the farmer. Dog was covered in blood she said so she couldn't doubt it was responsible. Farmer was really good about it she said and she agreed to pay costs and was glad that he hadn't shot her dog (a rescue). Lot of damage as sheep had been driven and trapped in the river and were in lamb. Some dead, some farmer believed would lose lambs and some mauled. Costs were high but she said her home insurance covered costs and without argument. Perhaps depends on policy but I wouldn't be letting them off without a fight.
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definitely don't give up looking for recompense, makes me so cross.
A long time ago I used to race huskies-they belonged to a lovely woman who taught me about them and I did it for 3 seasons. They are amazing dogs but they have a high prey drive, bred to run and pull the vast majority do not have good recall/obedience. Good husky owners know this and know that you never let go of a husky, anywhere, any time and when walked they should have a collar and a harness so they can't slip their collar. Hers (when not in the house) lived in a custom built, concrete floored pen with a 12ft chain link fence. They were run three times weekly and walked as described..
Unfortunately for the breed, their looks mean that they are being bred badly and sold indiscriminately to people who arguably shouldn't have any sort of dog. They are a specialised breed.
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Unfortunately for the breed, their looks mean that they are being bred badly and sold indiscriminately to people who arguably shouldn't have any sort of dog. They are a specialised breed.
Couldn't agree more
Lost a lamb the other day, found another dead with two holes in its head and multiple other wounds, another with a skull fractured but still alive. Pissed off to say the least and ready to murder a terrier that I often see running the lanes nearby I settled into the hedge with a pocket full of AAA, within 20 mins a big dog fox appeared and ran over to the kill. I can't say its a happy ending but there you go. One less lamb killer and terrier lives to cause an RTA another day!
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The last NSA meeting i went to ( i'm on the southeast comittee) they were still gathering dog attack information. so if you can please report any attacks and the outcome, would like to see more convictions made, but very difficult to get evidence or get the police to take things seriously.
Its very distressing for both sheep owner and sheep.
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Any dog can end up chasing sheep or any other animal. A Husky is not the every day house dog and people just do not look into their needs before buying that cute puppy. As far as I am concerned the owners are the problem not the dog. On saying that given the chance this will happen again. One bored dog on the loose is a risk to all life.
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This happened to us last spring: we had a ewe abort because of it. I know who the dog belongs to because of the description given by someone who saw it chasing the sheep, but there's no way I could prove it. It's VERY upsetting, but a few things spring to my mind:
1) It's worth having livestock insurance for this. It doesn't help with the emotional stress, but it does help with the vet bills and any financial losses.
2) Tell the police that the bystanders were videoing the attack. Do you know who they are? If not, can you give a description to the police?
3) Contact the owners. They should have calmed down and be feeling nervous and guilty by now. Tell them you don't want to sue them or to see there dog destroyed (which alerts them to these possibilities!) but you do need to know how they plan to stop the dog from chasing sheep again, and you do need financial recompense, even if it's in instalments.
4) Lots of talk about destroying dogs, crap owners etc. Realistically, just about any dog may chase sheep, and any dog may give its owner the slip occasionally. Accidents happen - but when they do, the owner should apologise immediately and mean it. And pay for it. And do their utmost to ensure it NEVER happens again.
End of speech, climbs off soapbox ;)
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There are no such thing as accidents, only incidents.
All incidents have a cause.
Any dog cannot chase sheep, only one that is not under control.
The cause of this incident was a dog owner failing to keep their dog under control .......something they are required to do by law. :knit:
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Realistically, just about any dog may chase sheep, and any dog may give its owner the slip occasionally. Accidents happen - but when they do, the owner should apologise immediately and mean it. And pay for it. And do their utmost to ensure it NEVER happens again.
End of speech, climbs off soapbox ;)
What Tiva Diva says :thumbsup:
And I speak as an owner whose dog once did come across a sheep where I thought there were none... I found the farmer, made sure the sheep was okay, offered to pay any costs, and took advice about making my dog safer with sheep. And never ever had him off lead where there could be sheep again - I even didn't buy houses that were in sheep country because I couldn't bear the thought of him getting out and causing any problems. After that, all my dogs were trained that it was naughty to even look at sheep, and that they must run straight back to me if they ever came across a sheep. Which was how it came about that when I started WWOOFing, my GSD x collie dog was chased all around the farm by three inquisitive pet lambs... :D
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Ah good ...so once you had been told by a farmer you became a responsible dog owner and.....
. And never ever had him off lead where there could be sheep again -
Your words
Ie kept your dog under control as required by law.
:excited: sorry I'll get off my soap box now
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So, stufe35, do you think that all dogs should be on a lead at all times in the countryside, whether or not there is any livestock about?
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So sorry you are where I have been.
The owners say this bitch has puppies? Well Husky pups sell for £500 plus so they can afford to pay your costs. As Marches Farmers advises, small claims court if the police won't do anything.
Also,I do tend to agree with Stue35 that dogs should be on a lead at all times in the countryside, whether livestock is about or not. Footpaths are for people... not dogs.
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Also,I do tend to agree with Stue35 that dogs should be on a lead at all times in the countryside, whether livestock is about or not. Footpaths are for people... not dogs.
But the countryside is for all to respectfully enjoy... and for a lot of people, enjoying the countryside just isn't the same without the family dog.
The farmer in me would of course love all dogs to be banned from fields that have livestock - but I'm a dog lover too, and I used to be a dog owner who wasn't a farmer and loved the countryside and I can understand how that feels.
On a practical note, if people couldn't let their dogs run off lead in the countryside at all, then where would they be able to let the dogs have a run? I guess there are town parks where dogs can run, which is fine for townies - but what about country-dwelling dog owners?
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It is not the farmers responsibility to provide off lead exercise areas for peoples pets. If you want to let your dog run wild around fields go and buy some!
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There are dogs on leads, there are dogs off leads running wild and there are dogs off leads not running wild but under control, because the owner has taken time as a responsible dog owner to train them and know them. Sadly this type of owner is not necessarily the norm. To suggest footpaths are not for dogs is just nonsense. Why is so much money invested in kitting out stiles on footpaths with dog doors if not for dogs to use. Not fair to judge all dog owners by the dangerous incompetence of some owners
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I never at any point said all dogs should be on leads. The law requires them to be under control, that is all, this can be achieved in a number of ways....as mentioned above.
It is a dog owners responsibility to understand how their dog might interact with livestock before they come into contact with them, not after they've worried a few sheep....then try there best not to let it happen again.
"The countryside is for all to respectfully enjoy".....I agree ......for me that means train your dog to be among live stock, or keep it on a lead, or leave it at home.
PS Sally, I should say that I like you learned this the hard way...somewhat embarrassingly when my dog ended up chasing sheep on the farm where I worked ! But that was some 30 years ago....as with everything, people are better informed these days , the internet and forums like this are largely responsible for that fact, dog owners these days should know and understand the hazards they face and their responsibilities.
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More legal rights are needed to be given to landowners with footpaths going through and over their land where help is not given by any footpath association or government body to fence adequetly the legal footpaths of the country.
Some people come once in a lifetime to the fields and think its ok to walk with dogs that are 'under' their control and not on leads.
If your dog is 'controled' then show some respect and show others what to do - put them on leads when livestock is around
I dont think a dog should be killed for killing livestock - without other compounding evidence.
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getting back to the original point and not a discussion on dogs in general. :thinking: ........
If they have house insurance it generally has a public liability cover which could be used to claim against.
most pet insurances have covers that don't generally come to mind, including public liability.(also kennelling costs if you are in hospital :thumbsup: ) however the dog owners do not have a legal requirement to give you those details .... so you may need to go along the small claims route. I would suggest a letter to them, covering your damages, asking for payment or the details of their insurance to cover them suggesting those two options as they may not think of them, and stating you would be going down that the small claims route would be a starting point. you may want to seek advice from CAB or a solicitor then (chargeable as part of the claim usually).
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Solicitors fees generally aren't covered in the small claims court so don't incur expenses that you will not be able to reclaim. Use the CAB.
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Slight deviation
On BBC red button service today:
"Escaped Police dog sparks search.
Police had to mount a search for one of their own dogs after it escaped during a training exercise near Dundee.
Police Scotland officers were taking part in a training exercise at the Old Ashludie Hospital building in the Monifieth area in Tuesday when the black Labrador made its bid for freedom.
It was tracked down by an Angus council dog warden and taken to local kennels near Arbroath on Tuesday.
The force will pay for the recovery of the animal."
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does anyone know the law if the lambs have squeezed out of the fence and then attacked by a loose unsupervised dog?
just wondering as last year our neighbours were letting their dog out unsupervised and were letting it get into the nursery paddock infront of our kitchen window where we could supervise the tiny lambs/kids. when we told them to get the dog away before anyone was maimed as the nannies and ewes were already stressed- they called the cops on us - who were completely unsympatheteic to us, as no blood was drawn and they had seen a kid climb through the fence onto our private road. the seemed to think that we were in the wrong as the kid could escape the field (obviously it wont go far from its mother and its on my private road - 400m from a public road and supervised by myself from the house)
I daren't use this field anymore as unless the dog attacks and maims the animals then police don't care. I think prevention is better than cure so I want them to keep their dog out of my field before an incident happens.
iv no faith in the coppers here.
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Shygirl, as I understand it, they are required to keep their dog under control at all times. Your lamb was on your land.
Quite simply they are in the wrong.
I cannot understand the polices approach.. Are there other issues that are influencing their treatment of you ?
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Shygirl, as I understand it, they are required to keep their dog under control at all times. Your lamb was on your land.
Quite simply they are in the wrong.
I cannot understand the polices approach.. Are there other issues that are influencing their treatment of you ?
the neighbours are snooty rich lying townie barstewards and the coppers had sat in their house for 90 mins before speaking to me. and had already made up their minds that I was in the wrong. their garden is completely open plan so there is no effort to contain a dog on their land at all and they are bang in the middle of my land.
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:wave:
Still no word from the dog owners, but I am sure once I send a recorded delivery letter to their house outlining the costs, I'll get a response.
On top of the damage to the ewe, the other pregnant ewe gave birth (I think a week or so early) in the middle of the night. We found the lamb suffering from hypothermia first thing. Fortunately, we managed to warm her up, get some feed into her and returned her to her mum, but it seemed touch and go for about 8 hours.
There are some pictures of my calm greyhound Amy laying next to the lamb warming it up.
The bitten ewe doesn't seem to bad, still eating well and feeding her tubby twins.
I think it was lucky it happened as I was getting home and not in the middle of the night or both out at work.