The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Renewables => Topic started by: Mathewr on March 19, 2014, 10:05:18 am
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Hi everyone
I currently use a couple of 1000l IBC containers to harvest rainwater. However I'm thinking of increasing my capacity with more containers.
So here's my question - does anyone know how to connect up two IBC's vertically so that one is feeding directly down into the other (creating one super-IBC!) to boost the water pressure?
Thanks
Mathew
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Just stack the two on top of each other, and connect the outlets with a T-piece. Then all you need to do is seal up the big hole in the top of the lower IBC to make it airtight, and connect a vent pipe to the top of the lower one that goes up higher than the top of the upper one, if that makes sense!
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Hi everyone
I currently use a couple of 1000l IBC containers to harvest rainwater. However I'm thinking of increasing my capacity with more containers.
So here's my question - does anyone know how to connect up two IBC's vertically so that one is feeding directly down into the other (creating one super-IBC!) to boost the water pressure?
Thanks
Mathew
Perhaps this might be of assistance to you .
By stacking whilst you will have increased the volume of the available ( full tanks ) water by two. As such you only increase the water pressure by the amount that's in the top container , as soon as you start to use it the pressure will drop according to the level left.
Are you able to put a 5 gallon square drum up say 15 to 20 feet feet up a tree or on/in an eve and pump water ( old central heating pump ) up into this height to the header tank perhaps using a small ball cock on the end of a hose pipe to stop overflowing .
The heating pump is a vane type pump impellor so will usually allow it to run if the pressure is too much ( when the lifted ballcock closes off the feed to the barrel ) so there should be no need to worry about a by-pass pipe and pressure switches though if you can get them set up so much the better.
if your not on mains power there are some good 12 volt & 24 electric pumps around that can pump several gallons a minute. Or if you can afford it buy an inverter to convert 12 vols to 240 ..the heating pumps only need something like 60 watts to run .( check the data on the pump side plate.)
If your interested in a pump, PM me with your details and meet the P&P cost by PayPal ( around £10 ish ??? ) and I'll send you the one I have out in the garage as I've recently purchased a new float controlled powerful sump pump to pump out my pond instead of me using the heating pump .
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That's interesting Clodopper. Are you saying put a small header tank up high, then fill it from the IBC using the pump, with the small tank becoming the higher pressure water supply for use?
If so, could you not just use the outlet of the pump itself as the water supply, and save the hassle?
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I would go for the simple solution:- if you can stack your IBC's for more pressure, then I would simply raise all the IBCs on blocks to that high level; that way you have the pressure boost for all your water, not just the top IBC's, and there's no need for pumps.
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That's interesting Clodopper. Are you saying put a small header tank up high, then fill it from the IBC using the pump, with the small tank becoming the higher pressure water supply for use?
If so, could you not just use the outlet of the pump itself as the water supply, and save the hassle?
It depends on the volume of water you want to have & what you want to use it for at the higher pressure .
A central heating pump can whack water out at a tremendous rate .
I'll do an Arnie and be back .... :roflanim:
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They seem to be a 6 mrt head of pumped water ( pump always wet so below the incoming water ) and around 45 to 100 litres a minute depending on the height pumped .
I'm recovering from a stroke my maths may need checking .....
18 foot head in a 7/8 dia pipe presumed pressure at the bottom end is ...
formula is .... h x pi x r squared
So ....
216 inches high x .4375 x .4375 x 3.142 = 189 cubic inches of water in the pipe x 0.0361 weight in pounds per cubic inch of water = 6.8239 pounds .
Taking it as 6 psi pressure at the bottom outlet will cover the water friction losses & temperature variations in the pipe & water .
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OK, 6 metres of water head is 0.6 barg.
However, you're mixing up the formulas for pressure and head, clodopper (static head has nothing to do with area - it's just head. To convert head to pressure, the formula is pressure = head x density x 9.81, which is the acceleration due to gravity).
So, if you're pumping the water up to 18 feet, you'll get a flow of 45 to 100 litres a minute up to your headpot.
However, if you connected your pump directly to the hose or whatever you're using the water for, you'd still get the same pressure at the end of the hose, but without the hassle of installing the headpot.
Mab's suggestion is sound if you've got the space. However, I wouldn't bother trying to raise the IBCs up on blocks. They're designed to stack on top of each other for transport, so just a stack of them - probably less hassle, safer and gives more water storage (albeit that half of it will be at a lower pressure). This assumes that an empty IBC costs less than a pile of blocks to raise the other IBC of course!
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Womble your formulae is correct but at the same time incorrect because how in our world can you measure density accurately, the norm is to measure 4 x per milli second, again how do you suggest smallholders do that, also the formulae you stated is for 0 ppm if one is using rainwater your formulae wouldn't be correct.
Mathewr if you wish to put Womble's formulae to the test I have an inline ppm tester with electronic switching that I will happily lend to you.
You'll need to temperature control your rainwater in order to stabilise density otherwise Wombles formulae will be nonsense.
Mathewr just enjoy your smallholding
Personally Id put one IBC on top of the other with 2 separate pipes the upper one for the area I needed higher pressure and the lower tank for other area's alternatively Id use the header tank option but with a solar powered 12v pump.
Smallholding x Formulae = compost heap :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Womble & Andy I feel you have misunderstood what I have put
The two things are separate items .
The pump info is a typical wet heating pump supply rate ( info off the plate on the wet pump that I have out in my garage ) .
The 6 mtr 18 foot pressure is relating to the weight of the column of water in a 6 mtr long pipe thus equating to pounds pressure at the lowest end .
You could pump from a big ground level interconnected set of IBC's 6 mtrs up up into a 10 gallon header via a ball float control so it does not over flow . there will be six pounds of pressure felt at ground level if you use a 7/8 inch internal bore take off pipe .
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Clodhopper I was with you all the way, I'm almost in agreement with you.
It was Wombles formulae I was :roflanim: at, in a lab yep, back of a barn maybe not
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Hi guys - I'm sorry, I had missed the replies to this thread.
Womble your formulae is correct but at the same time incorrect because how in our world can you measure density accurately.....
Smallholding x Formulae = compost heap :roflanim: :roflanim:
You don't have to! There's no need to be lab accurate here, nor to actually measure the density. Just take it as 1000 kg/m3, and assume it's constant (since it basically is).
What I don't get is why you'd pump all the way up to a headtank, just so you can bring the water back down again. Why not just take the pumped supply right to your point of use and save yourself the hassle? I'm clearly missing something here, but I can't figure out what it is! ???
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Hi guys - I'm sorry, I had missed the replies to this thread.
Womble your formulae is correct but at the same time incorrect because how in our world can you measure density accurately.....
Smallholding x Formulae = compost heap :roflanim: :roflanim:
You don't have to! There's no need to be lab accurate here, nor to actually measure the density. Just take it as 1000 kg/m3, and assume it's constant (since it basically is).
What I don't get is why you'd pump all the way up to a headtank, just so you can bring the water back down again. Why not just take the pumped supply right to your point of use and save yourself the hassle? I'm clearly missing something here, but I can't figure out what it is! ???
Water in summer in area with 40ppm can weigh as little as 830kg/m3 where as an area with 400ppm in winter may weigh as much as 1130kg/m3 why use a formulae if it's not accurate much more fun using the guesstimate tables.
To pump for example 200 litres to a header tank, could use any old pump whereas if you require an on demand pump & it would either need to be a bypass pump or have good filtration system, you may then need a pressure control valve & switching, plus the running costs would be higher as pump on pump off more frequently.
More to go wrong with a pressure activated on demand pump
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Still confused - 40ppm of what Andy?, and which guesstimate tables? ???
I think I'd be worried about running a pump against a dead head most of the time (i.e. a closed stopcock). At best it's inefficient, and at worst would shorten the pump lifespan. Also wouldn't you still need a filter? After all, if there's debris there to clog the pump, it's going to clog it regardless of how it's used.
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BTW, another similar query.
We currently have an IBC taking water from our barn roof. I wanted to filter this to remove leaves, algae, bird :innocent: , etc, but haven't found a suitable system yet. My main problem is that I have limited space and head available between the gutter and the top of the IBC.
I wondered if anybody on here had built a sand filter or similar (I could plumb it into the bottom outlet of the IBC to give more space), and if so, how did you get on?
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Hi guys - I'm sorry, I had missed the replies to this thread.
Womble your formulae is correct but at the same time incorrect because how in our world can you measure density accurately.....
Smallholding x Formulae = compost heap :roflanim: :roflanim:
You don't have to! There's no need to be lab accurate here, nor to actually measure the density. Just take it as 1000 kg/m3, and assume it's constant (since it basically is).
What I don't get is why you'd pump all the way up to a headtank, just so you can bring the water back down again. Why not just take the pumped supply right to your point of use and save yourself the hassle? I'm clearly missing something here, but I can't figure out what it is! ???
The O/P was mentioning ,an increase in pressure .
One IBC on top of another will give you 2 mtrs x the internal diameter of the outlet pipe @ the maximum providing that the tanks are always full. ignoring any resistance etc. hence pumping up to a header tank to get the pressures .
As soon as the height of the water in the tanks reduce so will the pressure of the water out .
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Still confused - 40ppm of what Andy?, and which guesstimate tables? ???
I think I'd be worried about running a pump against a dead head most of the time (i.e. a closed stopcock). At best it's inefficient, and at worst would shorten the pump lifespan. Also wouldn't you still need a filter? After all, if there's debris there to clog the pump, it's going to clog it regardless of how it's used.
40ppm = 40 foreign particles per 1 million particles of water, tested by way of a TDS meter, guesstimate table are found on the back of any scrap of paper usually just after breakfast though more usually after several pints of cider.
Pump against deadhead that's what on demand pumps are designed for that's why they use pressure switches
A by pass pump has a straight length of pipe in which the water flows, there is only a diaphragm to catch debris and in 20 years of using these pumps I've never had one block and I use everything from £45 to £2500 daily
As for filter yep sand would do it though you could do a separation tank above the IBC, then if you wanted to be really an*l like me you could then use a sediment filter after the IBC the casing is 10" long & 4" diameter
Good luck
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40ppm = 40 foreign particles per 1 million particles of water, tested by way of a TDS meter, guesstimate table are found on the back of any scrap of paper usually just after breakfast though more usually after several pints of cider.
OK, I've got you now. Don't think it would make a huge difference in a simple rainwater system though.
To come back to Cloddopper's point, which is what I was getting at is that the pressure only varies according to the height above it (since we're ignoring frictional flow losses here)......
The O/P was mentioning ,an increase in pressure .
One IBC on top of another will give you 2 mtrs x the internal diameter of the outlet pipe @ the maximum providing that the tanks are always full.
In my simple head, the diameter of the pipe doesn't come into it - if you dive down 5 metres into a well, your ears will feel +0.5 bar of increased pressure. If you dive down into a loch, your ears will still feel the same +0.5 bar pressure. The diameter is different, but the pressure is the same, i.e. pressure = h x rho x g = depth of liquid, i.e. head x whatever the density happens to be x the gravitational force on planet earth.
Pump against deadhead that's what on demand pumps are designed for that's why they use pressure switches
Got you - I thought we were talking about standard central heating pumps.
As for filter yep sand would do it though you could do a separation tank above the IBC, then if you wanted to be really an*l like me you could then use a sediment filter after the IBC the casing is 10" long & 4" diameter
My problem is that I only have about 8" between the bottom of the gutter and the top of the IBC. That's why I'm thinking of feeding the water from gutter => through filter => to base of the IBC, back flowing into it. I'd really like the filter before the IBC, since I want to get rid of the rubbish before the storage.
I've seen commercial gutter water filters that self clean by flushing with a portion of the rainwater (i.e. you don't get to collect it all, but at least what you get is clean). I wonder if that might be the solution, if I can do a bit more research and figure out how to DIY one?
Good luck
Thanks! - If I ever get round to doing anything with all this, I'll let you know how I get on! ;D
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Womble
If I mention a pumping chamber or an equalizing chamber to give an " air spring " in the output of a pump would you know what I'm on about ?
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Clodopper, no I've not come across that type before (unless you mean the sort of thing you get with a self-priming centrifugal, or sometimes as a pulsation damper on a diaphragm pump?). Do tell!
BTW, have you ever seen a hydraulic ram pump (http://buildarampump.com/) before? Unfortunately we've no use for one here, or I'd have a go at building one ;D .
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Womble
If I mention a pumping chamber or an equalizing chamber to give an " air spring " in the output of a pump would you know what I'm on about ?
Clodhopper at 1/2 past midnight your writing about the internal workings of pumps (your worse than me), I've been racking my brain about a pump I used years ago a ram pump or something to that effect it didn't use elec, it used water flow to activate the pump I think, I'll need to google it if you don't know, I want to pump 400 metres with a head of approx. 10 metres approx. 2 intervals of 400 litres 20mm piping is the cheapest intermediate, running costs are the driving force ANY THOUGHTS
Wow womble you posted that as I was typing
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Clodopper, no I've not come across that type before (unless you mean the sort of thing you get with a self-priming centrifugal, or sometimes as a pulsation damper on a diaphragm pump?). Do tell!
BTW, have you ever seen a hydraulic ram pump (http://buildarampump.com/) before? Unfortunately we've no use for one here, or I'd have a go at building one ;D .
Firstly
The hydraulic ram pump .. yes I've seen some , they only pump a few teaspoons of water at a time but over 24/7 it mounts up if you don't drain it off . I had a pneumatic air pump as a tyre inflator .. had to put it in a spark plug hole & run the car engine .. would pump to 90 psi no problems but it did take five or six minutes .
The old fashioned metal vane'd farm windmill pumps use a long pump rod & flap valve dropping out 1/2 a pint or so on each pump stroke lift.
You can use the height of the pump outlet to give you a header tank of water raise it and let gravity fill the reservior .
In Cyprus most small farms had 1 to 2 metre high walled reservoirs to irrigate their tomatoes ,alfalfa etc etc.
Others had single cylinder big fly wheel Lister pumps that needed the air spring /damper cylinder ( made from small inverted gas cylinders) to sort out the pump stroke frequency of one injection & I think two pump stroke every two turns of the flywheel if they were running spray head oscillating irrigators . They would run continuously for 30 or more hours on a gallon of cheap diesel .
The pulsation damper type chamber can be use to your advaantage .
round here West Wales 49 ( ? ) Kg tall red propane cylinders are not deposit charges and are not returnable .
Ten or so inverted and securely fixed in place connected to a running line from a closable pump inlet to a closable outlet will give you about seven gallons or so of water in each inverted cylinder if it is pumped to a six meter head level pressure . You can then shut off the incoming ,stop the pump and use the air spring effect to make the retained water become pressurised.
It will give a fairly good out put pressure for around half of the water held in the reservoir.
Thoughts about pumping 400 mtrs at a 10 mtr head . I'd pump to the height as near to the source of water as possible and into to a small 20 gallon header tank then gravity run it to the dispersal point . How would that work bearing in mind frost and foul weather .
What power source will you use to do the pumping ?.
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Thoughts about pumping 400 mtrs at a 10 mtr head . I'd pump to the height as near to the source of water as possible and into to a small 20 gallon header tank then gravity run it to the dispersal point . How would that work bearing in mind frost and foul weather .
What power source will you use to do the pumping ?.
A definite no no
Rainwater tanks 52000 litres are at the bottom of the site every time a loo is flushed pressure switch kicks 240v submersible pump into action
1. I feel it a lot of wear & tear for a 240v sub to be pumping 4-7 litres ago as this only takes between 1&2 seconds, so I thought pump to small header tank at the top of the site then that tank would gravity feed the toilets, so in theory If that system worked I could actually use the 240 submersibles to pump to the header and lose the on demand side altogether.
I just thought maybe a 12v solar pump or a ram pump ? if one would do the job, the 12v are struggling with the head
No rush
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ariesrampumps.org.uk ....just had a look at this .. a manufactured bit of gear so all you need is anti kink pipe & some form of mounting & terminating set up .
In the descriptions of how it works is a basic data & outline drawing.
If you can meet the conditions of a decent fall into the pump they reckon you can lift to 10 times the fall .
I myself would investigate that idea to the nth degree especially if your thinking of a header tank & if it looks a go'er do a specific save up plan and don't deviate from it.
I've just seen how easy it is to make your own ram pump , plenty of swing /check valves on ebay .
Though the final cost will be fairly close to that of one of an air ram pumps.org manufactured one and you know they will work right from the off with no messing about .
For the pumped delivery I'd consider using a modern dual walled rigid plastic pipe like an acorn type domestic pipe rather than a hose pipe as it wil not expand & contract with the pulsed pump stroke as much as a hose pipe will . This would easily fit all further fittings including a ball cock once the header tank is full .
You could bury it for frost protection as well .
Had a wild thought a few min ago .
If you don't have the full fall of water needed to operate the ram pump use a big domestic solar panel to drive a lorry electric fuel pump and use the pressured electrically delivered water as the supply if the voltage & current available is sufficient .
Or if no such pump can be had perhaps use a big PV panel a controller & an inverter of 240 volt to drive a central heating a vane type pump, though you'll need a couple of foot of head water to keep the pump out the stream .
It will only pump in day light would that be a be a problem in winter?
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Just stack the two on top of each other, and connect the outlets with a T-piece. Then all you need to do is seal up the big hole in the top of the lower IBC to make it airtight, and connect a vent pipe to the top of the lower one that goes up higher than the top of the upper one, if that makes sense!
Hi there.
I've been meaning to get back to you about your suggestion Womble - but now I'm on the verge of purchasing of a few IBC's. I think I understand you idea but I'd like to see a drawing to be absolutely sure. Would it be possible for you to do that??
Thanks
Mathew