The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Foobar on March 13, 2014, 12:06:57 pm
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Are lambing malpresentations environment or genetic or both?
I've had a lot of "simple" malpresentations (leg back, legs not extended, coming backwards, etc) for the past two years, on ewes that previously had no problems. CS of the ewes has been the same/similar every year, but I've used the same ram for the past two years. Could these issues have been caused by the ram's genes?
(My fields are flat, and the pre-lambing management has always been the same.)
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we used a different ram on some of ours last year, 90% of his lambs were leg-back presentations.he has gone and the new ram did his share this year and no leg-back presentations on the same ewes.
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I have no personal experience to relate, one way or the other, but I've heard other cattle folks say that breech presentations come from the bull so I guess the same could be true of tups.
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Interesting to hear that NLL!
I have a second group who were tupped with a different ram, starting lambing next week. Apart from the actual tupping they have been managed together with the other group, so it will be interesting to see how they pop out.
Either way, that ram is going this year anyway as I have too many of his offspring now.
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That's interesting to read, I think in commercial flocks ewes that malpresent are likely to be marked for cull when it should maybe the ram and not the ewes.
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Interesting.
Could genetics cause that? How would that work?
Any vets on here?
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That's interesting to read, I think in commercial flocks ewes that malpresent are likely to be marked for cull when it should maybe the ram and not the ewes.
I doubt that actually. In a commercial flock it would be fairly evident whether it's the odd ewe (cull her) or a significant proportion of one batch (cull him.)
BH always puts the new tup(s) out first, so we have a good time to assess his/their lambs and lambings before the rest of the boys kick in. And we keep batches broadly as they were at tupping, so we know what tup a lamb is from.
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how can the sire affect the presentation of the offspring at birth? anyone read any papers on the proposed mechanism? I'm a bit sceptical on this one!
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Pleased to see your comments Farmvet, because I don't understand how sire genes can affect lamb presentation either. Another mystery to me is the view that the number of lambs per ewe is also down to the ram, when it only needs one of his million bullets to fertilize each egg. It's the number of eggs shed by the ewe that controls lamb numbers isn't it?
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I've learned to be rather more sceptical of academics' theories than I am of farmers' experience ;) , so whether or not there are any scientific studies or learned papers wouldn't make me believe or disbelieve, whereas my experience has been that there's pretty much always something real and true in what 'most farmers say'. (It's not always obvious, but it's usually there! Even down to why northern sheep farmers select Mule ewes with bonny faces!)
But speaking as a biologist (which I am by training)... Since behavioural propensities are inheritable, I don't see why a propensity for a calf or lamb to not line itself up properly in the birth canal couldn't be inheritable. There could be a deficiency in some system that responds to a signal from the mother, and in 'normal' offspring causes them to orient nose-and-toes first at the point of exit.
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Initially I thought the same, Slimjim - that multiple births could only be about the ewe.
However, here are some ideas I've had about how the ram could have an effect...
- highly motile sperm that reach the egg simultaneously, resulting in more egg-splitting identical twins
- something in the ram's pheromones that stimulates the ewes to produce more eggs
- something in the ram's behaviour that stimulates the ewes to produce more eggs
- something in the ram's behaviour that causes the ewes to be more able to implant and sustain multiple fertilised eggs
We had one BFL tup that was a real patriarch; he didn't just marshal the ewes that were cycling that day, he kept the whole flock together and safe. I wish I could tell you he produced a higher lambing percentage than other tups but I didn't keep those records, sadly - however, I could see how he maybe could have produced a higher lambing percentage by his assiduous care of his ewes meaning that they were able to ovulate and then implant and sustain multiple eggs.
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Or his constant bothering meant they couldn't forage as they wished and less implanted so he had a lower lambing percentage! I love the idea that never leaving your farm makes you learn more! Damn I wish I had never left the farm now!!
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Ha, well you could be right, Me! (I don't think so, though, I'm pretty sure he was a good tup - we bought him as a very much loved ex stock tup from a top local breeder of Mules.)
As to learning more by not leaving the farm... well of course I don't say it isn't good to also read, and to visit other farms and sessions given by the likes of Eblex, and our vet does a pretty good job keeping us all up to date on what's new and current... but for sure, a lot of academics would benefit from an extended period of farm practise. ;)
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I am not an academic, but have obviously rubbed shoulders with one or two in my time and its a shame that the term is being used as more or less an insult. Very often good science is misinterpreted or over interpreted by non-academics and reported in the press incorrectly, later giving the impression that the poor old academic was wrong when in fact, he has usually been partly or totally miss-quoted.
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Not sure where you're picking up that the term is being used as an insult...
However, I think there is maybe a general lack of mutual respect between farmers and the more academic / scientific members of the agricultural sector. It's a shame in both directions - of course there are things farmers can learn from science but there is such a wealth of knowledge out there which is beyond the academics' ken and at which they are prone to turn up their noses. Not just the academics and scientists of course, it's as much the arrogance of youth as anything else, I'm sure.
Now I have a pretty good degree from a pretty good university, as it happens, but I guess that doesn't show as I don't wear my college scarf when I'm attending sessions given by Defra for farmers... and I am by now resigned to being treated as an academically backward, socially and mentally inferior being by some of the so-called experts fielded to brief us.
(Actually I probably am socially inferior, so I'll let them have that one, lol.)
Such a shame, because the government scientists introduce scheme after scheme after scheme which owe much to the latest academic thinking and show less than lip service to the generations and generations of understanding farming and the countryside which is embodied in so many farmers. Needless to say, many of these schemes fail to deliver, frequently in ways predicted by the farmers whose input was not sought, or if sought, was largely ignored.
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I can only speak as I find, I have a degree but its not in farming. We had one tup that gave us a high percentage of eye lids turning in causing ulcers on the eyeball hes not here and we don't have the problem or the cost of the vet visits. interestingly, his daughters have given birth and it hasn't shown as passing down through him. havent used his sons yet so we will see if it is a male dominated problem. Lambing was good this year, no losses in ewes or lambs we are just about to start foaling so we hope all goes well.
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Could it be the general effect of the tup on lamb vigour that impacts on presentation? And active and vigorous lamb will be better likely to get into the correct presentation than a dopey one? Although lamb size v ewe capacity would also have an influence.
Just a thought and not based on any particular experience - our flock is so small, I don't think any statistics would be significant.
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That's a good point Rosemary. Seems that primitives in general lamb easily. In our very limited lambing experience all were presented correctly and speaking to other Soay keepers it seems that even over 10 years lambing larger flocks they have hardly ever had malpresentations. Ewes with comparatively large pelvis and giving birth to smallish lambs that can get into the correct position maybe.
Are these tups throwing larger lambs that can't so easily get into correct birthing position.
Still can't get how they would be genetically less likely to get in position.
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My black welsh so far that have survived have all popped out without assistance but my commercials have had a few malpresentations, mainly a leg back. Only 2 sets of triplets more tangled or backwards but lambed easily with help. I think it is random because I have used the same ram for 3 years and it's never the same ewe twice that has a problem.
The suffolks all got a bit stuck but that's just the breed I think and they were first timers.
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We've lambed Badger Face for the last ten years and I've only ever had to pull a lamb once (a big lamb presented backwards) until this year. Of the first six lambs so far I've had to help two: both born to ewes that lambed on their own in previous years but this year the lambs had their front legs back a little, rather than extended slightly in front of the jaw. In both cases the inability of the ewe to push out the lamb led to an extended lambing process and the lamb's wool had started to dry out, increasing friction and compounding the problem. The only difference this year was that instead of housing the ewes five days before lambing I brought them in five weeks early, due to the atrocious weather and pasture becoming poached, so they had much less exercise than ever before - I ratcheted down the cake ration to compensate for the comparative lack of environmental challenge.
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I can only speak as I find, I have a degree but its not in farming. We had one tup that gave us a high percentage of eye lids turning in causing ulcers on the eyeball hes not here and we don't have the problem or the cost of the vet visits. interestingly, his daughters have given birth and it hasn't shown as passing down through him. havent used his sons yet so we will see if it is a male dominated problem. Lambing was good this year, no losses in ewes or lambs we are just about to start foaling so we hope all goes well.
ENTROPIA is well documented as passing down the male line , if you buy a new ram with the gene and use him on the females with the gene then the % of affected lambs will be high
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Now I have a pretty good degree from a pretty good university, as it happens, but I guess that doesn't show as I don't wear my college scarf when I'm attending sessions given by Defra for farmers... and I am by now resigned to being treated as an academically backward, socially and mentally inferior being by some of the so-called experts fielded to brief us.
I find a decent genetics question or why on earth they are expressing their results in percentages (when any fule kno, all you have done is transformed the data into a base 10 format which seems to make people want to infer significance without the proper statistical tests being performed - you could have just as easily log'd the lot for all the significance it holds...) soon brings on the goldfish expression.
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You need to stop talking to the goldfish then Steve, first sign of madness!
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Thanks Shep53, I didn't know that .I will have to watch next year .I keep very detailed notes of each sheep so I will be able to trace those affected and those not.
Another question for those into genetics.......I had 4 cases of flystrike last year, not had any before, they were ewe A her daughter ,ewe B, her daughter ewe C and a lamb out of ewe A. Makes me think there must be a link and I should cull this line but I especially like eweB I have 60 sheep.
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I'm sure I've read that propensity to suffer flystrike has an hereditary component. And that it was somewhere authoritative, like Eblex. But my memory is truly awful so as I can't find the reference, that could be complete rubbish. ::)
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I'm sure I've read that propensity to suffer flystrike has an hereditary component. And that it was somewhere authoritative, like Eblex. But my memory is truly awful so as I can't find the reference, that could be complete rubbish. ::)
I'd heard that flystrike is extremely heritable. Not sure of the source either...given that I have mostly easycares it sin't something I think about that much.
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The NEW ZEALANDERS who are miles ahead of us, say that fly stike can be highly heritable .
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We had a blackface ewe with a really waxy patch above her tail. She could be spotlessly clean and still the blowfly would strike her there. It was predictable and so easy to catch and sort out, but I could believe some sheep smelled better to the blowfly than others for whatever reason.
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when I was pregnant, my doctor said twins is heredity from either father or mother so im sure a ram can pass this through to the ewe/lambs, I presumed the father would give identical twins though, and the mother paternal or fraternal.
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Not quite - the number of eggs released is down to the female, and the male fertilises them.
However, the number of eggs a female releases is inherited in part from her father and in part from her mother, so whether you ram was one of multiples or not is really only relevant if you intend to keep his female offspring to breed from.
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Not quite - the number of eggs released is down to the female, and the male fertilises them.
However, the number of eggs a female releases is inherited in part from her father and in part from her mother, so whether you ram was one of multiples or not is really only relevant if you intend to keep his female offspring to breed from.
I meant genetically the male is as responsible for identical twins as the female, as the embryo splits into 2 embryos. according to my doc anyway, cant see how it would be different in sheep.
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6 year old very strong ewe, 4 previous lambings using different rams, no problems at all. 2 singles and 2 sets of twins. Thought I would give her an easy time this year ::) and put her to my Shetland, none of the ewes he has served previously had any problems either....
She had 2 raddle markings so I was not expecting her to lamb for another 17 days.
Yesterday she started lambing and it all went downhill rapidly :-\ . She always takes a long time but I knew something was wrong, had a feel and a huge lamb in breach position. Beyond my capabilities, so I called the vet. She was there in 40 minutes (it is a 20 minute drive) and was brilliant. Could not save the first ram lamb (perfectly formed ) but untangled a little ewe behind him.
Not a good start to this year's lambing :( , 26 to go.
Ewe has masses of milk, as always, and is a brilliant mum.
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How often do identical twins actually occur, we have never seen it in our flock? I imagine the ram effect on litter sizes is something other than the production of identical twins.
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Assuming identical means having exactly the same markings (and obviously same sex) I've never had identical twins in over 20 years, does it really happen to sheep or is it just rare?
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I've not seen it either, but must happen??
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Never had identical twins either in 30 years but plenty of twins that are total opposites i.e. one pure white and one jet black! I have got a shearling ewe however that is the identical copy of her mother! It is only her current smaller size that makes it possible for me to tell them apart - they are just the spitting image of each other!