The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: Croftess on February 20, 2014, 05:25:44 pm
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Hello folks :wave:
I would love to hear any info and opinion on keeping this old hardy native breed? I've written to the society but wonder if anyone is there as I've not had any response. Are there any Old English owners on this forum and would I be right in assuming that this would be the perfect breed to keep in Shetland? We (my husband and I) have a preference for native breeds whatever the livestock.
I'm currently working my way through the goat section and about halfway through, so far not much info on the Old English. Thanks for reading.
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As far as I know there is only JayKay on this forum who keeps Old English.
But you would need to source a good number of females and at least one if not two unrelated males to establish a viable breeding herd of OE up in Shetland. Seems to be quite a logistical undertaking...
I would have thought for milk in the Shetlands the Shetland coo would be ideal?
When we visited (in the summer) we took in Cunningsburgh Show and there are certainly goatkeepers on Shetland, but no rare breeds. As long as you can make sure you have a certain supply of hay each year, they do thrive on cattle/dairy mix, but probably spend a lot of time in their shelter...
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Thank you Anke, yes the shetland coo is the archetypal house-cow, except that I can't drink coo's milk :'( we never milked the one we had. The goats I've seen up here are quite large and one of my reasons for wanting a smaller goat was because of the fencing issue. I keep reading about goats jumping fences and we have a lot of standard height (42") livestock fencing which would be financially impractical to change. We kept weaners for two seasons with electric fencing, not sure if I want to have to use that system again.
The other breed that I'm very interested in is the Golden Guernsey, which is I believe one of the breeds you have? Is that right? Do you breed them or keep nannys and kids? I'm charmed by their personalities and would love to know what the milk tastes like, is it strong or sweet? My current thinking is to come down to the mainland at the end of summer/early autumn and pick up a female with a goatling (preferably female), see how we get on and then possibly think about getting a billyboy the following year - not sure how other folk do these things.
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Yes I keep Golden Guernsey goats as well as British Toggenburgs. I also have started to cross breed my GG's to breed them up to British Guernsey status.
Milk from GG's does not taste any different to milk from other goat breeds, the taste is really influenced by their feed stuff and their general health and mineral balance internally. Raw goatsmilk (which you cannot sell/buy in Scotland, but of course get from your own holding) does not have the "goaty" taste that comes with the goatsmilk from the shops. Over winter my butterfat content is higher than 5% making the milk really, really creamy!
You will get about 3 -4ltrs per day during summer from an average GG, in winter that drops to around 2ltrs, and around Xmas time is probably 1.5ltrs. But I have milked my GG successfully for two years without kidding, so if you were to start off with a female kidded the same spring, milked her through and also took a pregnant goatling you would be able to keep them without a male for about two years. GG's are actually as hardy as any other breed and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for Shetland. GG's are really a breed for the family smallholding, where of course you want to make a bit of cheese, but not tons every week.
There was someone on this forum (but hasn't been on for a while) who I visited while on holiday in Shetland and she did have a young unregistered GG billy (but he could have had other breeds in him too, as the golden colour is no sign of them being pure), so there is history of GG's up in Shetland.
If you look at the Golden Guernsey Goat society website there is quite a bit of info. There are GG breeders further North than I am (I am in the Scottish Borders), but if you were to try and get a "mini"herd together I could assist you in sourcing stock, especially as I realise that getting goats up to Shetland is not that simple an exercise... (I have thought about getting some Shetland sheep down after I fell for a handsome tup at Cunningsburgh show - I also have pedigree Shetlands - but my "financial manager", aka OH didn't approve...)
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Ooh that sounds a perfect proposition - however this is still very much an idea as my daughter is getting married in the spring (finances) and I also have a beloved old diabetic dog, sadly now blind and very needy, so I couldn't leave him with anyone else as the moment. If we were to buy some stock from you (if you had any for sale that is) or from another breeder that you could maybe source, we could bring some sheep with us for you. Which tups were you interested in was it a particular colour or breed line?
The GGs really do sound the ticket and I'm intrigued by the possibility of there being someone who may have a billy - I rang the vets a while ago just trying to source some goat herds and they told me of only one herd of saanens and I have tried ringing feed merchants to see if they sell any goat feed but its all very vague. Would you happen to know which area of Shetland this person lived in was it north or south or one of the smaller islands?
Thank you for help, its much appreciated. :D
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Hello,
There is someone on Orkney who has Old English- I don't have any contact details for them though. Irene McCreath in Dumfries and Galloway got a few females from Orkney a couple of years ago. Irene has quite a few and is the only person I know in mainland Scotland who breeds them.
However, I also know of a Golden Guernsey goatling for sale in the Aberdeen area.
Beth
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Croftess..........I hope you are successful in finding the right type of goat for you.
With regard to feed.......................most of us now feed a calf mix or pellets and not goat mix. The reason is simple, most goat mixes are based on sheep minerals with little or no copper. Goats need as much copper as a cow, relatively speaking !! It is also considerably cheaper which is an important consideration.
Most of the land in UK is copper deficient and therefore the hay is also. Yes you can use mineral blocks but in my nearly 40 yr experience, most goats would rather play with the blocks than actually eat it. So by putting the better feed and mineral supplement in front of them, you know they have had the best you can do. I expect most feed is imported to the Islands so will be more expensive in the first place so use the one which gives you the best possible.
The other thing to consider, cobalt is vital to goats, otherwise the milk taste is awful. Cobalt is to be removed from animal feed over the next year or two so extra Vit B12 in a supplement is essential. Not surprisingly the EU is responsible for this feed change.
I recommend Brinicombes Premium Goat Feed Balancer which is delivered direct to your door ....... a little more expensive thn some but you use less than some other preparations. The telephone number to call is
01363 778792 and speak to Kym Moore.
Hope the above has been helpful...................I don't keep GGs, only Anglo Nubians, British Alpine & pure Saanen!!!!
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Thank you Beth all good info for the future and thanks too Wytsend interesting to read about the copper and cobalt - we had our shetland sheep tested a few years ago for levels and needless to say we don't need to give any supplements :thumbsup:
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I smash up the Red Rockie mineral block with a hammer into powder/sand form and 'season' their food with it so I know they're getting it.
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Hi, sorry been really busy today trying to finish off the new extension for the billy to move in so I have room for kidding pens... Goats herds seem to expand all the time!
At this stage I wouldn't worry about feed supplements, as long as you want a good milk supply for the house (and not be commercially viable or win the local show) goats will do fine with either a calf or a ewe&lamb mix, plus a RedRockie lick. Good hay is really quite important, and I also rely a lot on cut branches - one thing you may struggle with in Shetland. But mine love Willowherb and willow branches - both of which I know do grow in Shetland. Other greenery mine love is comfrey and horseradish (leaves only). Carrots, apples, cabbages etc all greatly appreciated.
Actually I have been really quite forgetful on the Caprivite (the main goat supplement in the UK) front recently and haven't noticed any drop in performance... My GG's only very rarely use their lick, whereas the BT's need a new one about once a year.
Once I get the current Golden Guernsey Goat Society membership list I can see who is still active up North, and then maybe we can discuss things further.
Transporting up to Shetland would only be feasible out of Aberdeen wouldn't it?
I take it your local library will have some goatbooks available? I actually prefer the older ones with regard to general management - much more about feeding home-grown feedstuff rather than bought-in concentrate, building your own goat shed and pens etc etc, however for veterinary matters the newer ones are of course better.
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Beth - would I be right in thinking a goatling is a young 'unkidded' (for want of a better word) female? I think I'd be better trying for a nanny with kid or would that be more of a problem with regards to me milking an older experience doe - I'm a complete milking novice?
Anke - Goats extensions, how exciting, does that mean more GGs? An idea of current breeders would be very useful. I'm still trying to source folk on the island with goats and have been talking with a few who have dairy type crosses, not the types of goats I'd like to keep however. And yes transporting to Shetland would mean embarking on the overnight ferry. I'd better get more willow cuttings in - we're trying to establish a windbreak for the veg area but its taking a long time - the wind keeps everything quite low to the ground. I'm an avid reader of any literature based on the subject I'm interested in - I'll research till the cows come home :D Thanks for the info and please let me know when you have more?
Goosepimple - I've tucked your tip away in my head until I'm ready to start using it - cheers :D
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I've had Old English for over 30yrs...love them
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/GreyNan-1.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/jinglejoys/media/Goats/GreyNan-1.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/Geefa.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/jinglejoys/media/Goats/Geefa.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/Adam3.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/jinglejoys/media/Goats/Adam3.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/Nimityjuly12119.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/jinglejoys/media/Goats/Nimityjuly12119.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/Picture001.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/jinglejoys/media/Goats/Picture001.jpg.html)
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Great pics Jingle, I like the formation team. I'm hoping for some from Jaykay, see what she has this spring. Where in the world are you Jingle?
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I don't think getting livestock to and from Shetland is that hard - we bought our heifers from Shetland and it was dead easy. Actually, all we had to do was pick them up but the ferry set-up was great.
Good luck with your search for the goat of your dream :thumbsup:
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I don't think getting livestock to and from Shetland is that hard - we bought our heifers from Shetland and it was dead easy. Actually, all we had to do was pick them up but the ferry set-up was great.
Good luck with your search for the goat of your dream :thumbsup:
It is just if you would be starting up a herd with females from different breeders it is a bit more complicated especially as the standstill is 13 days... and them maybe have one or two already in kid... but not impossible, just requires some forwardplanning.
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It is just if you would be starting up a herd with females from different breeders it is a bit more complicated especially as the standstill is 13 days... and them maybe have one or two already in kid... but not impossible, just requires some forwardplanning.
Hmmm, see what you mean. But the actual transport in itself is great. I suppose the ideal is to get a starter herd from one person. What are the chances?
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Jinglejoys they are gorgeous - changed my mind I want OE - but likely will change again!
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Jinglejoys, I love your goats. I have seen OE before and think they are lovely. If I didn't have Sanaans I might be tempted.
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Irene Macreath has quite a lot of English goats in Dumfries and Galloway some of which came from the far north. She often has some for sale, she would also be happy to have a chat about whether the breed meets your needs. i can PM you her contact details if you would like. (she's my sister)
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English or Old English, lilfeeb ?
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They are the same breed, the old english goat society is relatively new (only formed in 2004) and a breakaway group which as i understand it from their website is only interested in a particular type of goat within the breed and in crossing this type with feral goats to create a new breed within a breed (so the name can be somewhat misdirecting) it is actually a new breed selected for particular characteristics. The English goat breeders association is the more established group but may not be what you are looking for if you prefer the less productive type within the breed which is perceived to be more hardy by the new group but I am unaware of any evidence to support this. My sister would have some which fit into both groups some of which came from orkney and shetland so they are very hardy. although I thing she is a member of the english goat breeders society (I am not 100% sure) so I think it would depend on what is most important to you, There is a bigger genepool to select from in terms of English rather than old english goats in the country. (from their website only 100 officially registered as old English) but this may increase if more english goats are identified as having the appropriate characteristics as the society becomes more established.
although I don't have goats myself, i have been around goats most of my life, my mother kept english goats and british toggernburgs and in the latter time a few british alpine as well. She had a cheese business which did really well until her back began to cause to much pain (the english tended to have milk with higher butterfats and protein although less volume than the swiss types). if i were you I would look into the two breeds and golden guernseys in a bit more detail before you decide on what you want. It can be difficult to get access to unrelated Billys even in the breeds with bigger populations, although AI is becoming more common. because goats are largely kept by smallholders or in small numbers apart from one or two big dairy enterprises, people often have to travel long distances to get access to unrelated animals to breed with.
hopefully some food for thought.
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hopefully here is apicture of some of irenes goats. Including some toggenburgs as well as her english goats
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I'm hoping to get some Old English in the next year or so, possibly from Jaykay. As I understand it, the Old English are smaller than the English, being larger than a pygmy with longer horns, but smaller than the bigger milkers. We just want milk for ourselves, not to be inundated hence our choice, and hopefully they will be less of a threat to our existing pygmies.
Anyone out there with Old English, could you let us know where you are ......? thanks in advance.
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If you want to go for the bigger English goat make sure you have all the stripes in the right places (a shot of Anglo Nubian X British Alpine should do it ;) )
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Both girls have scanned with twins GP, so hopefully there'll be two does in amongst them! Both due around the end of April :thumbsup:
OEs tend to be smaller, with heavier, longer coats. Mine co-exist reasonably with the two pygmies I rescued - Ellie (OE) bosses everyone around and the pygmy boys hold their own - the difference in size isn't too bad.
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good luck Jaykay, have you thought about what you'll do if they're boys :innocent:
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I've had a hectic couple of weeks including starting an intensive new job so haven't had much time to think about goats I'm afraid :relief: sorry I've not replied sooner.
Lifeeb - thank you I've pm'd you and thanks for all the info and the lovely pic. It would make sense to get as much info as possible about potential breeds, like you say travelling long distances (overnight ferry in my case) to go to a billy would be expensive and draining, but I would like to chat with your sister
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Oh, they go into the freezer in due course if they're boys, at about 8 months old.
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Hi Croftess
My name has been mentioned once or twice on here and I think my sister has given you my contact details. Getting animals on and off Shetland should be reasonably straightforward with a little organisation. As mentioned I brought some English goats down from Orkney several years ago when the owner had to move house. I think that it is the same ferry company that will serve Shetland too. They are extremely helpful and despite it being a long journey involving two ferries (the goats were from one of the smaller islands and had to be ferried into Mainland Orkney first before being loaded onto the big ferry down to Aberdeen), it went without any hitches and the goats arrived here in good form. As I was unable to get up to Aberdeen myself, I used Henry Thomson, Sauchen Livestock Transporters who met the ferry and transferred the goats. As these were all in milk, I also got my friend Agnes Aitken to meet the ferry so they could all be milked before setting off on the next leg of the journey - definitely easier to transport them when not in milk! As far as I can recall, you pay for a "section" on the ferry, so it is the same price for one goat as it was for the six I had in the section - may also be something to bear in mind.
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An English goat (Old English or otherwise) should be smaller than any swiss types. Mine are. If I had a pound for everytime I have been told at a BGS show that "it would be a good goat if it was a bit bigger/gave a bit more milk" then I could probably retire tomorrow. The majority stand just below hipheight on me (only 5'3" tall) and give between 5 and 7 pints a day at peak yield dropping off to between 1-3 pints in the winter. The main advantage that I consider the English have over the swiss is the level of cashmere in their coats - through the winter here even the most modern type English have coats that look like bottle brushes as the amount of cashmere forces the outer guard hairs to stand out, trapping a lot of warmth. The BT's that I "inherited" when my mother gave up keeping goats often need jackets to keep them warm here AND they eat twice as much food. Strangely, the Orkney goats are taller than my homebred lines but the extra height is all leg. My homebred lines can all trace back to Jemima, the first goat registered with the English Goat Breeders Association on its revival in the 1970's and includes bloodlines such as Hillbilly, Smithfield, Harcross and Ferrocrete. The Orkney bred goats also have Hillbilly bloodlines alongside Lakelands and Boniface. Sorry I do seem to be waffling here, so will stop.
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Hi Irene - thank you for all that info not a waffle at all ;D - are yours Old English? When you say they stand just below hip height (and you being 5'3") is that their heads or shoulders? Also is the amount of milk just for you or do you keep the kid with the doe in the day time? What are they like having their kids taken off them at nighttime, do they bawl? Its quite important as our bedroom wall is the other side of the byre where the goats would be housed.
I know the ferry company is very used to shipping livestock up and down to the islands and mainland on a weekly basis so that would be very useful to be able to take advantage of that facility. I had planned on driving down with a trailer but it is very dependent on finding some kind soul to take care of croft animals and dogs and cats etc.
The other thing I have to take into consideration is hardiness and getting a breed that could survive the cold winds and rain here in winter and not eat for Scotland. Whilst they would be loved and cared for very well keeping livestock in Shetland is hard and they have to make it viable for myself and my husband. I am considering a couple of breeds including the Guernsey but the Primitive are ticking most of the boxes at the moment.
Irene you mention that yours are slightly longer in the leg can I ask you if you have any jumping fencing issues? Are they a jumpy breed or quite placid? I've just read this back and there are a lot of questions - I suppose the most important for me are do they jump and are they noisy????? :thinking: