The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Unicorn on September 05, 2009, 01:17:31 pm
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Keeping aninmals is a big responsibility and should not be taken on unless you are
prepared to do some research and learning - pigs especially are not like sheep - you
cannot just leave them in a field. :pig: :pig:
I am totally amazed at some questions asked on here - it is obvious that some people have not
looked at a book or investigated the requirements pigs have from some of these questions.
Whilst the forum is here to help people, and I will offer my experience, as many others
will too - I do think that buying a book, visiting the library, or going to some breed societies
web sites such as the Saddleback Breeders Club, BPA, Oldspots.com or just google or Yahoo
"looking after and breeding pigs" - "Basic Pig Keeping", would be a good start.
A lot of Bargain Bookshops now have Raising Pigs and other good books for sale for less that
ten quid - and if you can't afforf the book, then you can't afford to keep pigs. You have to buy
food to give them every day, and make sure they have water, and a house, and bedding, and
are free from draughts and wind and water getting into their home.
Questions you need to ask: What they need, What they eat, How much does it all cost.
Please get some good background information and help yourself to become a good pig keeper.
I bought books, visited web sites, and visited farms and breeders before I took on any animals,
and I took it for granted that others would do the same.
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I agree, my pigs were 2 years in the planning, thinking & researching - before being here for all of 5 months ! And they were just a trial run for the freezer ;). Now that I've done the basic raising of pigs I'm researching once again, for breeding this time - 'forewarned is forearmed' as the saying goes.
One thing I'd add to Unicorn's post is check out your local vet - if they are not in the habbit of dealing with pigs, you'll either have to learn a WHOLE lot more or change vets (which may be very costly if call-outs are needed and they are further away)
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Sadly its not just the novices that make horrendous mistakes. Please, however experienced, the vet always has more knowledge he should be your first port of call should your pig fall ill. (This is not a criticism of any posters on here, just from other peoples sad experiences).
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Hi HM,
I didn't for one minute mean that you should treat them instead of the vet, I should re-read my posts ! I just meant that you'd need more knowledge to maybe assist a vet that's not in the habbit of dealing with pigs than one who was.
(hope that makes sense ;))
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I Second all that!
Applies not just to pig, but all animals.......... research first, and ask lots!
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I agree with everything already said...unfortunately, some Vets have only had experience of dealing with 'commercially reared' pigs and they are less understanding of the efforts a smallholder will undertake to treat illnesses or keep his/her animals alive. One of our own Vets spent several years with large 'commercial pig rearing' operations and he found our approach to treating and caring for our pigs as individuals very strange...we sometimes chose to ignore his advice and managed to save a pig that he would otherwise have culled...happily he now understands our ethos much better and his attitude and approach to treating our animals is vastly different; he even recommends us to other pig keeping smallholders if they have any questions.
Truth is you never know what you don't know...so keep asking the questions and research, research, research!
Farmer
:farmer:
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HH sorry it wasnt meant for a second as a response to your posting, it just bought to mind some rather sad cases of pig mismanagement by people who consider themselves to be experts. Many apologies, should have written that better.
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Unicorn, I am starting my research here, so asking basic questions generates answers from different points of views which then leads you on to further research. So dont be too surprised that people use this medium as their first port of call. ::)
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I have to agree with Charente
I had thought the point of the forum was friendly exchange of advice and experience
I have to say that on reading the opening post on this topic i found it quite hostile
I myself am a reader prior to action.....however this does not preclude you from making mistakes
We all learn from mistakes and interaction there is always something we could/should or would have done differently
Whilst some questions may seem a little incredible to some to those seeking advice they are important...in seeking advice there is a
willingness and need to learn. If there is a price tag for certain experience on this forum then i would suggest that that unforgiving attitude
is taken elsewhere...otherwise what's the point >:(
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Unicorn, I am starting my research here, so asking basic questions generates answers from different points of views which then leads you on to further research. So dont be too surprised that people use this medium as their first port of call. ::)
Good! thats the right attitude, and you Padge! Theres lots of books but depends what type of animal you actually get, good advice is always given here (and on other forums) so ask away!
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I have found that pigs, like dogs, require more than just grub, water and a dry and warm place to sleep. They need somethng to occupy them during the times not spent sleeping.
Carrots and apples or similar, cut up small and scattered around their pen keeps them happy and occupied for hours.
I went to a veg shop today and plucked up the courage to ask if they had a box of anything going cheap for pigs and was given a box full of peaches and nectarines and told to come weekly for anything else.
My three will think they are in heaven------have you ever watched a pig eating a peach?!!
I never have any trouble with pigs trying to burrow out under the fence(yet!!)
It doesn't take much to keep a pig happy, I find!
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Unicorn, I am starting my research here, so asking basic questions generates answers from different points of views which then leads you on to further research. So dont be too surprised that people use this medium as their first port of call. ::)
Your other post about pigs getting a large part of their feed from grass was partly what prompted me to put this thread here.
The problem with asking such questions on here is that people answer it, but leave large gaps of other information out, you can read threads, and different people pick up on certain points, leaving out others, that are seen as not relevant to them - but maybe to you.
I would not advise anyone to use any forum as their "first port of call" regarding keeping AND breeding Animals. Thorough reasearch into basics should be taken before taking on another life of any sort, that will be totally dependant on you.
We would not need establishments like the RSPCA and other animal welfare places if it was not a fact of life that people take on animals that they are not prepared to look after - because they didn't KNOW which questions to ask.
Padge - if you took this post as hostile - you are far too sensitive- and I am far too protective of animals too.
Take it as you will, I will always speak up for the welfare of the pigs, and expect people to look harder than just posting here - thats the lazy way in my opinion.
You can never know everything, we have kept pigs for a number of years, we have at least 10 books on rare breed pig keeping, we run courses for new pig keepers, but there is always new problems to encounter, and sows that behave differently when giving birth or raising piglets to your other ones, we had a boar die within a week of purchasing him. We did not know why he died, the vet did not know, so we paid for a post mortem, and the District Vetinery Office wrote a full report on the death.
It was the first young pig to die of Liver Disease in 40 years that they knew of - they learned something too from our loss, and asked to have permission to publish it, and information on our farm, for other vets to learn from. There was nothing we, or the breeder, did wrong, it would have been born with the problem. The kind people who sold us him were also devastated, and they gave us a replacement pig, which was a very nice gesture and not expected. Unfortunately the breeders are no longer in pigs, it was a hobby of theirs and not their main business, but they were excellent at looking after all of their animals, and were very nice people.
What I am saying is - no one knows everything, read a good book, then ask questions and make your decisions from there.
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Sensible maybe..............sensitive not.
In my opinion you can never take your animals welfare too seriously BUT I would still say the vain in which you posted
came across as intolerant.
It is by suggestion of your latest post that not every question can be answered and not every situation pre empted
in order to avoid disaster but I would imagine those joining forums such as this and asking all manner of advice
are not about to enter into keeping livestock lightly and exhibit responsibility from the onset
Hopefully the forum can continue to be a friendly happy advisory place taking us all through the highs and lows of livestock rearing
whether as hobby farmers or otherwise ???
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Now, now children....play nicely...other people are watching! :-*
Farmer
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I have to admit I read Traditional Pig Keeping By Carol Harris cover to cover before having the courage to go on a forum as I was so nervous of getting laughed at for asking a really dumb question! Now I have my pigs and I still ask dumb questions! ;D ;D ;D
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That's exactly why I did some reading up first! Questions are great, but if you have someone asking how do I keep pigs you would have to spend a week writing the reply!!!
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No matter how basic the question or how experienced/inexperienced the questioner, surely the people on here can take a little time to pass on their own knowledge and experience...after all the one thing that we all have in common is a need for help and advice now and again; otherwise we wouldn't be here!
Whilst I largely agree with everything that Unicorn has said and fully endorse the call for researching any animal well before you embark on keeping/breeding them, I do think EVERYONE should be encouraged to ASK QUESTIONS, no matter how mundane they may appear to the more experienced or knowledgable amongst us...that's how we learn and become better at what we do.
I'm absolutely sure that none of us knows everything but some of us can learn a great deal from asking questions of people whom we believe have a like minded approach to smallholding.
This is only one of many sources of information to be found on the internet...lets encourage people to communicate through TAS no matter what stage they're at or how limited their knowledge is.
Farmer
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;)
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hi Ive been reading the whole post and i now Ive asked some questions that most of you would of thought i should know before keeping any animal and also to read books , well we have kept animals before and i worked on a farm but that was 20 years ago Ive since found that what was done then isn't done now and the difference in living in Scotland to england is diffrent to the approach of when to feed animals , also with reading books is fine but if like me your dyslexic and struggle with some of the meanings of long words or just cant read them , asking on forums where i can then ask if I'm confused on the words for a better understanding , or just ask for them to explain it more i cant do that with a book , but once Ive got that extra help i can then go back to my books for more help so i will say that if i ask for advice which you might think i should know before then I'm sorry cause all we are doing is learning and i think most of us do read the books but i find if you get diffrent peoples advice you then can make a better educated choice by compairing what is being said and what you read i thought that is what this forum was for help and advice to pass good and bad experance on to others :o
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No matter how basic the question or how experienced/inexperienced the questioner, surely the people on here can take a little time to pass on their own knowledge and experiencekeeping/breeding
...lets encourage people to communicate through TAS no matter what stage they're at or how limited their knowledge is.
Farmer
:farmer
Probably the most sensible and concise response :)
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Whilst I largely agree with everything that Unicorn has said and fully endorse the call for researching any animal well before you embark on keeping/breeding them, I do think EVERYONE should be encouraged to ASK QUESTIONS, no matter how mundane they may appear to the more experienced or knowledgable amongst us...that's how we learn and become better at what we do.
Farmer
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That is the point I intended to make - glad some saw it ;D ;D ;D ;D
Also pleased you got a wink from Padge - would dread to think we were clicky too ::)
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I've just caught up on this thread and I think that it just shows how difficult modern life is.
Over the last two years since I bought my field I have bought, borrowed and devoured a bookcase full of books on animal rearing. I've talked to folk locally and by email. This forum has me logging on almost daily and I really enjoy the range of opinions - however none of it is easy. Someone on a different thread asked for advice as long as it wasn't conflicting......
Maybe we should have a new game where we have to find a livestock question that we all agree on the answer to. I think it might take a while. Also when there is so much info of varying quality out there, (at least two books I spent money on told me zilch) and even basic published material is not immediately accessible, a great way to start is to ask on a forum. The Amazon links on the bottem of the pages are fabby. but it took me a few weeks to even notice them. Life is so complicated now. In the past the village busybody would pass on loads of advice - it might be rubbish but it would have been fairly simple.
I think that we should encourage anyone to ask any question and not be embarrassed about whether its a daft question or not.
My old Dad says that 'you can't understand the answer until you ask the question'
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Well done for all the reading
Yes books - especially the old ones can get it wrong - I have to point out to smallholder on the Pig keeping course who say they have the Bible (John Seymours book of Self Sufficiency) that we don't dock tails, cut teeth or feed dairy and meat to pigs these days.
There are a lot of great people on here - but as Happy Hippy agreed recently you would wonder about the animals future if more work wasn't done - better to have experts opinion too, as you say, there will be a lot of people disagree on certain points.
We are all the total sum of our own experience, and we are all unique and see things different - Padge views my post as hostile - I view it as giving out a bit of common sense to would be animal keepers -
I would prefer to begin with a book written by a professional with lots of experience giving me the basic understandings of the subject - but then thats how I approach things - I'm still studying now, social science and psychology - and love it - its good to learn new skills.
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Think we're dangerously close to agreeing.
But I love books and my eldest daughter who is very dyslexic would never manage one.
Luckily she is unlikely to ever keep a pig
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But thats whats so great about the librarys - we have bought, but I am sure you can borrow
a lot of the River Cottage Series, and we have taped Jimmys Farm - he did make mistakes at the beginning
though, once he left a sow that was farrowing when she was only half way through and lost a good few
piglets.
Quite often our sows have given birth to seven, then eat, drink, turn over, and an hour later have another seven, we have cameras up in the farrowing house and always bring them in to have their litters, theres bedding water, warmth, red lamp for the babies for the first day in the summer, four days in the winter, and the lamp is in a sectioned off corner so they get used to being out of mammys moving area and are less likely to be stood on.
When we started, there wasn't as much info on dvd or in books that there is now, its becomming very popular to keep rare breed pigs. We encourage people in a good position to keep them, but we also hope its not going to be a "fashion" with some people.
This happened with donkey keeping and dogs in handbags brigades - thats the only worry.
There's not a fast buck to be made either - some people seem to be rushing into pig keeping only for financial gain too, its an ever changing market, lots getting out of it, and lots coming in, at the moment.
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Unfortunately I don't meet many people who want to keep pigs and the ones close to me have huge farms with big KEEP OUT signs at the end of the track. I do meet inner city kids who think that the countryside is a foreign country and last week met a couple who claimed not to know that lamb chops came from real animals. I would like there to be more smallholdings around here with more people who faced the responsibility that comes (to my mind) with putting food in your mouth.
I do worry sometimes that I spend too long reading books or forums and not enough time doing. I should be in bed right now so that I can get up early do some real work before virtually working at my desk all day.
Whoops think I'm off subject - Heigh ho
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I normally delete without reading anything about pigs and sheep, sometimes also cattle, because I don't have any, and never will - I don't want to breed anything that is killed for eating. I'm not vegetarian - I just can't kill an animal I have a relationship with - that's just me. However, something made me start reading this thread, and as far as I can see Unicorn wasn't being aggressive at all. She, like me, is passionate. Sometimes passion can seem aggressive but it is only because we have such a great Love for the animal/breed/species concerned and wish only the best for it. To want newcomers to do heir homework BEFORE getting and animal or starting to breed is only simple common sense!
I have made my mistakes too, even after years of experience and numerous books - well before the Internet was even thought of. My first litter of Brittanys(not my first altogether litter - I'd bred Cockers before that) Gigi had 6 pups and my neighbour phoned to see how things were as she had had one pup on the way home in the car from a vet check up (who said she had another day to go yet - huh!), and taken it forward and dumped it on my knee while I was driving. I said I thought she was finished after the six, and seemed quite settled and feeding them well, so she asked me to go round for a welcome cup of tea. I was horrified to find a flat dead pup in the whelping box on my return 15 minutes later and did everything possible to bring it round without success. I have felt so guilty about Jamie ever since (we named him before burying him in the garden), so even books didn't help me. I should have been prepared to stay with my bitch until I was absolutely 100% sure that all the pups and placentas were out.
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Annie - thanks for sharing that with us, because it reminded me of something else.
We had a pig once that had nine, then the afterbirth, so we believed that was that, we stayed with her for a while, then left her.
Three hours later, we checked her before bed, then left them all till morning.
When we returned about five hours later, she had had two more piglets, huge ones, and another afterbirth - which really means that you can never be sure.
Night Night everyone - time for sleep ;D
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Night, night unicorn!
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Now that reminds me of when Fiona ...... had 6 piglets. Appeared to have finished. Ate her breakfast. I went off to feed the others came back 30 minutes later .... Fiona had had another 2. All perfectly fine.
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OK Marigold here's a livestock question that I think we can hopefully all agree on ....
Piglets are very cute!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Now then, dont let sentiment get in the way of a good debate.
Actually, yes they are! Not so keen on the ones with very long snouts (durocs)
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Brilliant!!!!! I agree wholeheartedly - piglets are very cute!!!!!! :pig: :pig: :pig:
Now I'll try one...........Sacks of pig nuts are very heavy...........
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Yes! buy mash mix instead (can mix it up with whey from goats cheesemaking!) its lighter and cheaper, and smells delicious
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mmmmmmmm
sounds delish!
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sugar beet smells yum, but tastes blummin awful!!!
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Hey Little blue, tell me why you don't like the Durocs?
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unicorn
"Keeping aninmals is a big responsibility and should not be taken on unless you are
prepared to do some research and learning - pigs especially are not like sheep - you
cannot just leave them in a field.
I am totally amazed at some questions asked on here - it is obvious that some people have not
looked at a book or investigated the requirements pigs have from some of these questions."
do you not think thats why people are asking questions on here its to gather the required information.
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I think you could be right, Relic, the Internet is the new 'library', but I still agree with Julie that newcomers to ANY species or breed should READ before - not after they have an animal and start to have problems! ::)
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Whatever its lovely that so many people ask questions on here and so many are able to answer them.
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Hey Little blue, tell me why you don't like the Durocs?
Nooo! don't "not like" them, just prefer a shorter snout!!
My Kunes have lovely little faces, and delish eyelashes, better looking than some people I know!
Pigs are great, and piglets are gorgeous
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Pigs are great, and piglets are gorgeous
True enough, I waste spend far too much time watching them enjoying life - such happy animals :pig:
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Murphy our boar has taken to sleeping with his tongue hanging out... had to keep going out and poking him to check he's still alive!
Think its growing pains... he's certainly doing plenty of that
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Our large black does the same, although he snores and passes wind so we know he is alive.
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Sounds like my other half LOL!
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Yeah - lots in common haven't they ;D ;D ;D
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Hope your OH doesnt read this ;D :pig:
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No chance ;) I work him FAR too hard for him to have time to sit at the computer ;D ;D ;D
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Nooo! don't "not like" them, just prefer a shorter snout!!
My Kunes have lovely little faces, and delish eyelashes, better looking than some people I know!
Pigs are great, and piglets are gorgeous
[/quote]
Oh good, cause that's what I got and I was wondering if there were something I needed to know about. :pig: :)
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No, no , just a matter of individual taste I suppose. Following on to the idea that pigs and men are similar!!
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ive yet to meet the man who can produce as much gas as our boar.
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Hmmmm, not met my husband yet then? Or my brother?!!
Or maybe Murphy is a particularly gas-less boar!!
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Aren't most
Boar Bores full of hot air?
Farmer ???
:farmer:
N.B. No aspersions on your family LB
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None taken... They're mine so I can say what I like about them (other people had better watch it though!!)
How's your leg/hip today Farmer? Take care of yourself....
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Still painful LB...thanks for asking...have taken to walking with a stick when it gets too bad...makes me feel really decrepit...but it'll pass...anyway too busy with the move to let my hip get in the way...only one more week before we take all the animals up to the new place and then I can start collecting the ones I've purchased...more Dexters and some Balwen sheep...going to a rare breed sale next Saturday to see if I can replenish my Gloucester Old Spot breeding stock...have been without pigs for about a month now and have really missed them, so can't wait to get some more.
Farmer
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Have you seen your GP? Do you have painkillers for it? I use Ibuprofen but I know it doesn't agree with everyone
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very exciting!!
Don't worry about the stick... we have my late mother-in-law's and have both had occassion to us it. Our combined age is 64 (and theres 10 years between us, so work that out for yourselves!)
How are you preparing the animals.. nights in the trailer, or will you just pack them up when the time comes?!
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Hoping to just pack them up when the time comes - sheep should be no problem, nor the chucks and ducks...will probably have a little trouble with the Dexter cows...but our Bull is an old softy and will walk on the trailer if you comb his hair...my main concern is the two pet goats (Jake & Kenco) never been on a trailer and will not like it one bit!
She who must be obeyed is getting some Ibuprofen tomorrow Annie...haven't tried it before but hope it will help...Dianne (SWMBO) has used it and says it is very good.
Farmer
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You can take Paracetamol with it. My GP son-in-law says for bad muscle/joint pain, to take 400 mg Ibuprofen then two hours later take a full adult dose of paracetamol (forget what that is but the packet tells you - 2 tablets usually), and use that regime three times per day. He also says to keep that up for three days and if the pain is still as bad to see your GP for stronger drugs. If you feel at all unwell after the first Ibuprofen don't take any more and see your GP.
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Thanks Annie...I'll bear that in mind...Jesus, 1st a walking stick and now drugs...what's happening to me! Seriously...thanks for your concern and advice, both are very welcome...I always feel better when I've been on here anyway.
farmer
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Farmer what has happened? Are you ok?
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Difene is one of the best antiinflamatory pain relievers around. Comes in tablet, spray & gel forms. Only available on prescription. Can have very serious contraindicatons to those who have suffered, or suffer from asthma though. Consult your doctor.
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Farmer what has happened? Are you ok?
No panic HM...just a touch of Old Age...hip playing me up...spent a restless night and wrote a post whilst feeling sorry for myself...and received lots of sympathy and good advice...nice bunch on here...nothing to worry about, there's plenty worse off than me...but thanks for asking all the same.
Farmer :-*
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Need a relieved smiley. Glad you are ok.
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Hope you feel better soon - a whiskey Mac cures all ills!!!!
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what's a whiskey Mac?
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whiskey and green ginger wine
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together in the same glass? :o
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absolutely
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whiskey and green ginger wine
That was my old Dad's favourite tipple. Every new year, without fail, he began Hogmanay with that.
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I know many who swear by it. I don't drink, but will occasionally have a green ginger wine - yum yum!
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I LOVE anything ginger :love:, I wish we had that here in the states. Can you make it? We've made wine from our grapes before, also some from tomatoes :P yuk that stuff was as awe full as I told my husband it would be. ;)
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I've just remembered as well that my Dad's post office mates used to call him Whisky Mac because he drank that - our family name was MacLennan