The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Clansman on January 06, 2014, 03:11:28 pm
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I have no knowledge of pigs whatsoever but i'm slowly learning with the intention of keeping a small number of them in the future so excuse the pig ignorance ;D
I'm happy with everything i've learned so far but the killing/butchery side of things looks to be a major expense and to be honest its something I would be quite happy to undertake myself.
Now I'm not up on the laws and regulations covering pigs but is there anything that would legally prevent me killing and butchering my own pigs at home for home consumption only??
I've butchered the odd sheep, quite a few deer etc so I have no problem there and although I appreciate pigs are different, I can learn as I go.
Can it legally be done?
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Been looking through the firearms guidance and it states you need a licence (which is free, apparently)
13.41 The slaughter of animals for human consumption will often be carried out using captive- bolt instruments that are not considered “firearms” for legal purposes. However, authorisation to possess and acquire a free-bullet slaughtering instrument may be granted to proprietors of slaughterhouses, knackermen, deer and wild boar farmers, butchers and farmers, smallholders and crofters who need to slaughter their own animals. Expanding ammunition should also be authorised for this purpose.
So looks like it is legal but don't take my word for it
Have a read of this:
http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/home-killguide.pdf (http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/home-killguide.pdf)
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Cheers Spandit,
I actually came across some similar things on my Google searching which said they could be shot at home using .22 rimfire or a shotgun to the back of the head, (the pig was feeding out of a bucket at the time) ::)
they recommended a 410 shotgun as it was effective but made a lot less mess (and was not so prone to ricochet as a bullet)
I am a FAC holder so that would not be a problem, it's more the legal side of doing it that concerns me.
Although I appreciate the image of someone shooting a pig in the back of the head at home may be a bit disconcerting for some ;D
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the edited highlights from other threads where it has been discussed a fair bit
if you do the deed with a legally held weapon and do all the butchery yourself and it is only consumed by you and family members living at the same premises it is legal.
there are a number of bits that have to be removed from the carcass and set aside for collection by fallen stock people not sure what though.
im sure someone will be along soon with better advice...
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A brief read of the file I linked to said that pigs are exempt from TSE regulations but you still need a means of disposing of the bits. I don't think I could do it...
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Yep just read that :thumbsup:
I could do it no problem, I just wouldn't want to end up in hot water for it! ;D
I did have a search Bloomer but all I could find were things about butchering at home after the abattoir had killed them.
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I'd feel a bit mean shooting a pig in the back of the head whilst it's eating but I suppose it's a necessary process. How would you dispose of the bits?
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http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=39082.msg385476#msg385476 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=39082.msg385476#msg385476)
this one talks about getting someone in to do the deed (not allowed) good comments further down from oaklandspigs
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I may have to have them collected by an approved collector, will need to investigate more.
Although from what I have been reading it looks like I should also be doing that with my poultry feathers and intestines rather than just wrapping them up and putting them in the domestic bin! :innocent:
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We used to shoot them the same and then burn the haire of .I would build a place to do it 3 trees like wig wam chain that's it.
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We used to shoot them the same and then burn the haire of .I would build a place to do it 3 trees like wig wam chain that's it.
Was there anything you had to do legal wise? form filling/notification etc?
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good article blatantly lifted from smallholder magazine...
http://www.smallholder.co.uk/shlivestock/10370720.FSA_issues_new_advice_on_home_slaughter_rules/ (http://www.smallholder.co.uk/shlivestock/10370720.FSA_issues_new_advice_on_home_slaughter_rules/)
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It does seem odd that one can't get a licenced person in to do it. As I understand it, without any training, I could legally shoot one of my own pigs, running the risk of injuring/distressing it but someone familiar with the process couldn't.
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That i'm afraid is the world we live in! ;D
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can you tell the powers that be don't like the idea at all!!!
the rules are written to make the abattoir the appealing option, shame so many have shut down really.
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If you remember the tv program the po kocks crofta Ben africk .He fed the pigs and sheep and shot the animal in the field put it in the tracter buckit winches it up and bled it .Nothink was said a bout it .It's better for the animals no fuss . In Scotland its common practice becouse there's no place to slorter.
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can you tell the powers that be don't like the idea at all!!!
the rules are written to make the abattoir the appealing option, shame so many have shut down really.
Thats EXACTLY the way a lot of it comes across, it looks like it can legally be done at home but they REALLY don't want you doing it so a lot of the info on it is less than helpful.
They aren't telling us lies but seem to be withholding the whole truth
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It's better for the animals no fuss
Another thing in its favour, I know a lot of the abattoirs are reputable places but i've read a few horror stories from smallholders who took their pigs to abattoirs, it can't be a completely stress free experience.
when its my turn, I'd rather go with my head in the food bucket at home..
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If you take you're animals to slorter you don't no if you get the right meat .Is it killed propley do they take good care. Answer no not as good as you .Loading erley morning carnt be good .stress free if you do it you're self . There is no difarance from a chickin goose sheep pig its you're animal you have cared for .it Bonding and trust .so why spend 50 pound and let some one else do it.
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It does seem odd that one can't get a licenced person in to do it. As I understand it, without any training, I could legally shoot one of my own pigs, running the risk of injuring/distressing it but someone familiar with the process couldn't.
One probably can ! Interestingly the advice changed in 2011 - although no laws have changed.
The 2011 advice says "26. It is unlawful for a farmer to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman both to slaughter his animal and to dress it. This is because the slaughterman would be supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business."
This in itself is accurate, the key here being that what is presented by the slaughterman differs from what he was handed.
What the 2011 advice doesn't say is what the 2009 advice said in exactly the same paragraph viz:
"24 It is unlawful for a farmer to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman both to slaughter his animal and to dress it. This is because the slaughterman would be supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business. However, if the slaughterman did no more than kill the animal, leaving the farmer to dress and cut the carcase, the Courts might be less likely to conclude that the slaughterman was supplying goods (and more likely to be supplying services). If so, this activity might be held to be lawful, (i.e. the EU Food Hygiene Regulation 853/2004 would not prohibit it) although the issue is far from clear. The EU TSE controls would in any event apply."
As I said earlier no laws changed in between, the wording was conveniently (conventiently for the FSA who don't want this happening) shortened.
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You could telephone your local animal health inspector and ask their advice. What concerns me is that those regs are for England and Wales and whether slaughtering pigs at home is legal is ambiguous in the document. Scottish regs may differ so check it out.
I was told many years ago by the animal health inspector at Thainstone that it was lawful to slaughter cattle and sheep at home for own consumption but under no circumstances pigs. He also put me onto the HSA for their guidance booklet and sold us our first shotgun (Gordon Smith at Colpy). He was very helpful when it came to overcoming the sensibilities of our (shocked) local firearms officer too and put me in touch with the ministry vet for further back up.
Now we get our shotgun cert renewals with no problem as it is many years down the line and the firearms officer knows us by now.
Incidentally, there is a fee for a shotgun certificate of around £50.00, but proper firearms certs are difficult to get unless you belong to a gun club anyway.
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Incidentally, there is a fee for a shotgun certificate of around £50.00, but proper firearms certs are difficult to get unless you belong to a gun club anyway.
If you have a need for a firearm and there is no reason why you shouldn't have one (medical, criminal etc.) then they will grant you a licence. It's currently £50 for FAC (firearms certificate) and £50 for SGC (shotgun) but only £60 if you apply for them both at the same time.
Interestingly, having a firearm for animal slaughter is one way of possessing a handgun (pistol) which are otherwise outlawed
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They're a bit more strict up here, Scottish law may differ from English law as it often does. I wouldn't be able to say for sure though but any info I do have came straight from the firearms officer who deals with us. ..... who may be fallible :?
You don't need a rifle for home slaughter anyway a shotgun is by far the most safe and humane way to do it. There's no danger of ricochet and the spread of the shot pattern done from a correct distance will obliterate the medulla oblongata making a clean, fast job of it. The HSA recommend shotgun above other methods too.
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Same laws apply up here Julie, unless there's a good reason not to grant you a FAC/SGC one anyone can have one.
I have FAC/SGC so no problems there and have discussed it with FAO who is perfectly happy about it.
I've been in touch with quite a few people now who home kill/butcher pigs in Scotland and have visited one yesterday just to actually see it done.
it is perfectly legal, just frowned upon by many people, most of the people i've spoken to that do it don't make it public knowledge.
All the people I spoke to are killing using a .22 rifle aimed at the front of the head using the ear to eye diagonal intersection point.
I watched two being killed this way, its very clean and very quick, no mess at all.
The rifle ricochet warning sounds a bit like the "using your mobile in a petrol station can blow it up" story, the theory sounds good but its probably never happened.
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A shotgun does sound messy and it is pretty loud. A moderated .22 is almost silent but I'd be tempted to use the .223. I'm thinking a handgun would be better for point blank work but not sure if they'd grant me one
I've emailed my FEO to ask his advice
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Shotgun works well for all pigs, and is approved by the Humane slaughter Society (HSA) mentioned above, when I get a mo, I'll post the blurb and diagram. Shotguns are lawful for any legal purpose, so you can use them as long as you're licenced, and competent to kill pigs (ie you can get it right).
.22 centerfire not rimfire and other calibres will work, but yes you do need watch ricochet, they do happen although rarely, and I would not use near concrete. However technically and legally you do need slaughter of livestock listed on your firearms certificate. Whether you would ever be done for using it without adding it to your licence is a different matter, and it is probably the case that Clansman's FEO is perfectly happy.
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I had to shoot a big bull Christmas week I shot it becouse its leg had gone .A dog run it into a wire fence it was that big I couldent move it .It cost 6 grand and I could of butcherd it but had no help highland bull.
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If you remember the tv program the po kocks crofta Ben africk .
what was the spelling again? as id like to find that programme online if its still around. :thumbsup:
(does anyone now the name of the programme recently about a big family that live off grid in the highlands somewhere - a guy i met on the beach was telling me about it but i couldnt remember the name)
thanks
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/galleries/p01hg353 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/galleries/p01hg353)
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We home kill and buther etc.
The reality of killing 2-3 pigs raises a few issues and the feint of heart should not read the following.
Are you shooting to kill or stun before sticking?
If you stun the pig then you need a rope around it's foot first then keep it still before you stun it between the eyes. Not easy a task and this must be done away from other pigs so as not to stress them.
You will need to hang the pig ( tractor or a few helpers are needed ) by the rear legs - stick it ( cut the aorta ) to bleed it out ( whilst it still moves) and collect the blood in buckets whilst 2 peole hold the front legs apart and pump the left leg for a third person to catch and stir the nlood with their hand.
Next burn the pig and scrape the burnt hair off - a flame thrower helps. remove toe nails,
Next jet wash the pig and lift off the ground. Once clean - empty the pig.
This involves some thought so as to disect out around the anus and maybe tie it off AND to ensure you do not cut the bladder. Whilst dropping out the entrails you will need to take the heart,liver and kidneys then dispose of the entrails ( I dig a hole or leave for wildlife).
With the pig still hung by it's rear legs - remove head - split pig with a saw.
Hang each half overnight - so you need a cool night and an area that is rat free. I let mine cool in the barn then wrap in shower curtains and start buthering the next day.
So - in summary - you need a few tools, help, planing a strong stomach and a bit of muscle.
Butchering - as you say you already have some experience and a good set of knives and a decent saw will also equipe you well.
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Are you shooting to kill or stun before sticking?
whilst 2 peole hold the front legs apart and pump the left leg for a third person to catch and stir the nlood with their hand.
The ones I saw shot were shot with a .22 rimfire then bled straight away but the shot definitely killed them, it wasn't to stun them.
I'm interested in this MAK, whats the reason for pumping the left leg? I assume you mean moving it up and down as in what the pig does when walking?
I've not seen any mention of this before?
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Sorry - I should have made it clear that we use the stun and stick method because we collet the blood to make black puddings. Certainly I would advocate hanging the pig and use gravity to drain the pig and ensure that the great vessels,heart and liver vessels do not have clots. Pumping the left leg must stimulate flow through a failing heart I guess - it seems to give results.
I should add that we have a chap in the commune that does all the home kills ( no charge) and that he is very experienced and professional. I set up a table for his tools and he changes his clothes twice after arrival to first do the dirty work then the clean work. We burn and scrape the skin then jet wash so this needs planning and of course a tractor is essential to hoist up the animals and move them around.
I can carry half a pig on my shoulder but I need help to open the doors to get into the kitchen :o
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Ok a bit further down the line now and awaiting final written confirmation on procedures to be followed etc but it looks like we're good to go :thumbsup:
FAO, Defra, Animal Health (and me) are happier for a shotgun to be used rather than the .22 rimfire.
although the .22 is perfectly legal to use it is reckoned to be more of a stunning method than a killing method, although I did see a pig head opened to see where the .22 bullet went and it did actually penetrate the brain.
So the .22 will definitely kill, maybe its just not as quick to kill.
A shotgun in the brain is definitely a kill shot, no argument with that one.
So apart from the noise factor it looks like the shotgun is the tool for the job that will keep everyone happy.
My only concern with it is that I've got Kune Kunes and they are pretty small compared to the "normal" pigs kept for meat so the .22 would probably be fine and the shotgun massive overkill!
However, you can't kill anything deader than dead so maybe overkill doesn't apply in this case.
Once I have the official line on everything i'll post up the info.
it's been quite difficult getting to this stage, I don't know if I've been delayed or diverted deliberately away from what i'm trying to find out by the relevant official bodies but it does feel like that sometimes!! :innocent:
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Ok, i've not been on for a while but now have an update for this ;D
We have now successfully home killed/butchered (and eaten) a few of our pigs :thumbsup:
Due to the Commonwealth games up here there has been a delay on me getting my FAC updated so I bought a captive bolt stunner to do the job.
They were fed as normal on Friday morning but got nothing in the evening so they had a good 24 hours withdrawal time to get any food out of their system to make the cleaning process easier.
They still had access to water right up until they were killed.
in the evening moved them to a separate pen, gave them a good clean and hose down then a bed of fresh straw for the night so they were warm, dry and clean.
In the morning we led the first one very calmly out of the pen (out of sight of the other pigs), placed a small amount of food on the ground and whilst it was eating, placed the captive bolt stunner on its forehead, pulled the trigger and it dropped like a stone.
All very calm and relaxed, zero stress on the pig whatsoever, it was at home, wandering around with us getting patted and eating just as it had done every day since it arrived here, as far as it knew, today was no different to any other day.
none of the potential problems and stress of an abattoir trip such as loading and unloading into trailers, being penned up in a strange place and hearing the strange noises of other animals in the background etc.
Very impressed at the stunner, i've seen many animals killed and usually there is a good bit of kicking/flapping etc just from nerves but there was hardly any movement at all from any of the pigs, they just dropped on the spot.
it may be called a "stunner" but a pig or even a larger animal would not have recovered from this blow, I am quite confident that anything "stunned" using one of these would never regain consciousness even if it weren't bled.
The same model is used on African Water Buffalo so if its good enough for them its good enough for a Kune Kune.
We just burnt the hair off with a gas torch, not too bad a smell at all, I was quite surprised.
Quite a learning curve but with each one we did we got better and quicker.
We sorted out a local fallen stock company which lifts animal byproducts (head, innards etc) for £3.50 a bag so all that side of it was taken care of legally too.
So we're finally up and running, it took me a good few months to get all the legal stuff sorted and in writing and it was quite frustrating at times but we got there in the end! :thumbsup:
We've been eating spare ribs and sausage rolls for the last few weeks! :thumbsup:
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Good for you. Sounds like your pigs were happy till their last.
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It sounds a worthwhile way to slaughter once the red tape is sorted. Its good to read how somebody has gone the extra mile to do everything on site, thanks for the information on your experience.
Congratulations on a stress free end for your pigs, enjoy your reward :yum:
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Yep its definitely the way i'd choose to go! ;D
There isn't actually any red tape as such, it was more the different agencies choosing not to actively assist and not offer help or info etc.
It would have been quite nice to have asked about home culling and someone come back to me and say well yes you can but you need to do A, B and C to keep it legal, that didn't happen and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I was told more than once by these different agencies that although it is legal they are against it and do not encourage it.
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The only red tape is when you come to eat it, no friends or family shall dine here. That's if you abide by this rule, if not make sure the diners know not to share the fact.
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That was one example of what i mentioned above, I had to actually ask that question to get the answer, it wasn't offered openly when I asked the home kill question.
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We sorted out a local fallen stock company which lifts animal products for £3.50 a bag so all that side of it was taken care of legally too.
I don't understand that sentence, could you please explain?
Good on you for doing the deed, probably a lot safer & cleaner than a shotgun. Not sure I'm up to that stage yet (although I did buy another shotgun yesterday :))
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I'd guess Clansman means for disposing of the bits you can't/don't use - you can't dispose of animal 'by products' in your normal rubbish ;)
Good on you Clansman :thumbsup: and thanks for posting your experience, it'll hopefully be helpful to others who raise meat for themselves.
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Yep thats it, it was supposed to read "animal byproducts", I think I got spell checked! ;D
They collected all the bits that were left, head, intestines etc and gave us the proper paperwork notifying the disposal for our records and for the benefit of anyone who might ask to see it.
If we home kill a pig and can't produce any evidence showing proper disposal of the by products, i'd imagine we'd be up the smelly creek without a paddle! ;)
I'll write up a small summary of what I've done in respect of the whole home butchery thing so that anyone else thinking of doing it can see what it entails.
Hopefully it will save someone else 8 months of emailing and phone calls! ::)
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Ok here's the process I went through from registering my CPH number through to the home kill.
January 6th 2014
Whilst registering for the CPH number with the Scottish government (SGRPID) I queried with them about home killing and butchering legislation.
They told me to speak to The Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) about it as I needed to apply to them for a herd number anyway.
AHVLA are a part of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA)
So I asked the question and the AHVLA emailed me a link to the DEFRA website…. ::)
I spent most of this week trying to get through on the DEFRA helpline, including twice actually getting through and being cut off whilst being put through to someone else!
I eventually got hold of someone who didn't know and advised me to email in my query! ::)
email sent 10th January 2014, received automated reply stating the will answer all queries within 15 days but usually it will be quicker than that.
after many repeat emails I got this response on the 28th of April! (15 weeks later)
"Home killing of livestock
Thank you for your email of 10th January about home killing of livestock. I apologise for the delay in replying.
As you are in Scotland the best source of advice would be the Scottish Government. There is some guidance about slaughter in the enclosed link to the Scottish Government website. I also enclose a link to the contacts page.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/animal-welfare/AnimalWelfare/slaughter (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/animal-welfare/AnimalWelfare/slaughter)
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Contacts (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Contacts)
I am sorry I cannot be of more direct help but I hope this information is useful.
Yours sincerely"
ok, I had been Royally fobbed off!
So I called the Scottish Government in Edinburgh, got a very helpful lady who gave me the number for the Food Standards Agency (FSA) :thumbsup:
Rang the number and got another lovely lady in LONDON!! I'm in Scotland, they don't cover Scotland ::)
She then gave me the number for the FSA in Aberdeen!
I was passed around a few people within the FSA before being advised to call my local Environmental Health Department.
Again I was involved in another few email conversations, passed around a few people within there before someone advised me to call the FSA!! ::)
Now i'm not a believer in conspiracy theories but this was getting too ridiculous to be coincidental!
Ok so I now call the FSA in Aberdeen and ask to speak to the boss who unexpectedly took my call, listened to the tale of the fiasco and advised me to speak to the Humane Slaughter Association.
Now I explained at this point that I had everything in writing to date and could he please confirm to me in writing that the FSA in Aberdeen's official response to someone asking about home killing animals was to tell them to contact an independent registered charity for advice on government legislation?? (I didn't get it!)
I was also told that although it is legal the FSA actively discourage home killing. ::)
I was then pointed to the FSA's website which contains a link to the Home Slaughter regulations.
http://www.food.gov.uk/scotland/regsscotland/regsguidscot/homeslaughterlivestockscot (http://www.food.gov.uk/scotland/regsscotland/regsguidscot/homeslaughterlivestockscot)
I sent an email where I laid out exactly the procedures I intended to follow from the FSA regulations and asked if these procedures were followed would this be legal and I got a response stating it would be!!! we were nearly there! :thumbsup:
I did call the Humane Slaughter Association too http://www.hsa.org.uk (http://www.hsa.org.uk) and spoke at length to Charlie Mason who runs it, I was surprised that he actually kills his own animals, I was honestly expecting him to be one of the tree hugger veggie types :innocent:
He was very helpful and recommended using a .410 shotgun on pigs as first choice, the reason being that a stunner operated in the home environment may be a bit more susceptible to inaccuracy, or not being applied correctly etc and not stunning the animal correctly, whereas you're really not going to miss or slightly stun an animal if you have a shotgun a couple of inches from its head.
Actually the only concern I have had when using the stunner is that the pig may just move as I press the trigger and it doesn't make full contact, although every time I have done it so far there has been no issue whatsoever.
We have had Environmental Health out for an inspection after informing them of our plans and they quite openly admitted they don't condone home slaughter at all but that it is perfectly legal to do so.
So, the rules you need to adhere to are:
1. Only you or a member of your immediately family who lives with you can kill, clean and butcher the animal on your own premises.
2. You cannot take it onto someone else's premises at any stage.
3. You cannot have anyone who doesn't live with you come and help out at any stage, other people can watch, no one can assist.
4. Only you and your immediate family who live with you can eat the produce.
5. It cannot be sold, swapped or given away to anyone else outside the family who live on the premises, you can make your own sausage rolls and take them on a picnic but it is illegal to give one to anyone else.
6. All animal byproducts must be disposed of through a proper fallen stock company as normal
7. The TSE regulations do not apply to pigs, poultry, reared game, rabbits etc
The EU last year introduced a law which makes it legal for licensed mobile slaughter men to kill on the farm provided the produce is not sold on the market.
The FSA in the UK are looking at this and although it is not legal yet there may be a good chance it could happen in the future.
I appreciate the whole home killing process is not for everyone but I am willing to bet that there are many out there who would happily butcher their own animals on the farm if a qualified slaughter man came to the farm to kill and clean it for them first.
http://multimedia.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/enforcement/enf-s-13-026a.pdf (http://multimedia.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/enforcement/enf-s-13-026a.pdf)
I don't think i've missed anything but I probably have! ;D
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Thank you Clansman for the very detailed information - this is really useful to know about the allowable procedures in such detail. Sharing your experience is much appreciated!
I'm a long way away from having my own stock ready to go, but if at all possible I would feel so much better if I could have it done in familiar surroundings for the animals. And, if the law changes I'd be very keen to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman/butcher.
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yep i'm sure many would, its common sense really, the rules have just been taken too far in the past preventing it being done.
i'm sure there are plenty people out there who can happily butcher an animal but aren't too keen on the killing/gutting side of things.
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Clansman another :thumbsup: for me too for your very interesting post - although I do not have pigs, I have lambs to go and would much rather they had the opportunity to pop their cloggs in the paddock at their trough than off to the abattoir the night before - all that time and uncertainty can not be good for them.
But I don't have the ability to kill them - would worry and worry about it and they'd still be here a year later!! As you say butchering I could do so if there was mobile man/woman it would be fantastic.
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Yep, thats it exactly.
I know a few farmer wives that wouldn't harm a fly but give them a sharp knife and drop half a pig on the kitchen table and they are in their element! :thumbsup: