The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Rosemary on December 04, 2013, 04:52:13 pm
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I bought 40 pol hybrids mid October. I reckon they were about 15 weeks; they are have been laying about 10 / 12 eggs a day for about 2 weeks.
I bought them from a well known producer, and they are vaccinated (IB, Newcastle, Salmonella, Cocci)
So far two have died and a third will have to be despatched tonight.
They have adlib access to a quality pellet and some mixed corn before bed; clean water; plenty space (three paddocks each giving 10m2 per bird, rotated monthly). The house is well ventilated, cleaned regularly and treated with Diatom. I've checked a few of the birds and they show no external parasites.
I understand that being outdoors they will meet lots of new bugs but is this normal or am I doing something wrong.
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im not sure but when we took hybrids from a freerange farm we were told to expect a few losses.
being so young tho, its not good. maybe its the time of year. how old is pol for you? when we bought pol hybrids they were 14 weeks and it was early summer.
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Have they plenty bedding for night-time? It IS cold, and depending where they came from they may not have adapted yet.
My birds are all inside my brick garage, so have protection from winds and frost. I've just put covers round the dog cage my quail sleep in and given them extra bedding and food, but my hens leap up onto the dog shed and snuggle up together, and have started growing their feathers back, so they should be fine.
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I reckon 15 weeks when we got them, shygirl, so 20 ish weeks now.
They roost, doganjo, so not in contact with any bedding. THere's 40 of them in the house which is watertight and not draughty. Although there is a layer of bedding to make the shed easier to clean. One or two don't roost though - I wonder if they are the ones that have failed. :thinking:
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id take a punt at it being too cold for their age. being late hatchers, i suspect they are aimed at the indoor husbandry market unless you were told different. as they are layers they wont have much meat on their bodies to keep them warm.
is there enough room on the floor for them to all sit without being trampled? if so i would take out the perches.
actually iv never put perches in for young birds as it puts too much strain on their young legs/chest, maybe with shortlived meat birds it isnt so important, but with breeders/show birds, i dont let them perch til they are more mature.
plenty of shavings and they will huddle together on the floor and keep toasty warm. just watch for overcrowding / trampling. 2 smaller coops may be better than one larger one if this is a big risk.
will be interesting to see how this goes.
personally i think hybrids are bred for intensive management where everything if consistent, whereas traditional breeds can cope with extremes of daily natural life better. tho obviously the hybrids may be more profitable in theory (as long as they stay alive).
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What symptoms do they have apart from dying? If you're planning despatch, you clearly have some warning?
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Surely not cold enough to kill them? Hens can take temps way lower than what we have at the moment. I think sometimes you get a bad batch. I bought some POL Light Sussex in early summer this year and they have not coped with the heat or the cold. They are just not hardy birds.
I think its bad breeding. Maybe the cockerel was weak or had some failing. Let's face it, most birds are bred to be indoors for their short lives, pumped full of god knows what to keep them alive until depletion day.
Have you considered hatching your own stock from strong cockerels / hens? That's the way we are going.
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Have you post mortumed one? Can see worms pale intestines etc. Lots of pics online on normal looking anatomy. Have they been treated for worms and cocci?
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Well I think sterio is right there is 2 breeders that line breed there highbreds .They do this to stop disease they also prolaps .I always use young stock from duram .The gene pool will be much better .The gene pool for geese is also bad .Don't beet you're self up its not you're folt .I see haw you're stock is kept .you carnt do eney more all the best with this problem.
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Could be something as simple as bullying Rosemary. If space is tight and feeders are limited the weaker will be bullied off them. Without food and water they will not last long. How full were the crops of the three casualities?
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We've now lost eight of the forty we bought. The rest look fine. Dan PM'd one, assisted by YouTube, and could see nothing - no evidence of parasites, full crop and gizzard.
I've got the vaccination sheet from the supplier - it looks very comprehensive but I passed it to my vet and he was concerned that a number of treatments were being administered simultaneously which is off- licence (he must have spent ages trawling through the NOAH compendium, God love him) and may therefore affect the efficacy. One or two were also very specific - must be administered in chlorine free water for example.
Maybe it's just bad luck; the remaining ones are laying well and look healthy. I'm going to worm them with Flubenvet this week as a precaution, although they haven't actually been outside for that long to pick up too many parasites.
Maybe it was just too late in the year.
I might go back to buying day-olds - they'll get used to our bugs early and will be raised outside once off heat.
Hey ho, such is life.
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You shouldn't really be losing any Rosemary and eight out of forty certainly isn't on. You've been sold a duff lot. Buying POL chickens is certainly the way to go for most people stocking up for laying chickens and your experience certainly isn't typical. At 15 weeks of age the job of rearing should virtually be over.
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What a shame. I'd be horrified if 8 of 40 chickens I'd sold to people had died of unknown causes, but then their extensively reared so it's a different kettle of fish I guess.
Fingers crossed that's the weak ones and all those you have left go on to lay many eggs for you.
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The vaccinations themselves weaken the birds. They are of little value to a small producer in my opinion (IB affects the shell quality) and of course must be applied correctly. I would have expected 10% to be lost before laying but after that just the occasional sudden death.
I thought the gizzard should be almost empty, apart from the grit. Was it impacted with something?
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:hug: Sorry for your losses hun :-*
You know that when I started with choox, my 11th bird was called Arfer cos on performance to date, she'd 'alf a chance o' livin'!
The only other thing that occurred to me on reading what you've written is about them huddling together for warmth and the shed being cosy (small) enough (whilst well-ventilated) for their body warmth to warm it enough. If all the deceased ones weren't perching, was that because they were bullied off? Or didn't try? Is there lots of room on the perches? I have certainly experienced a house being too generously sized for all the birds to be able to keep warm - those on the outside edge, or not perching, could be cold if the house is large and so the ambient is not warmed by the combined body heat. Or if it's over-ventilated for the conditions, I guess. Does the wind howl through?
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Some didn't perch but the dead ones didn't come from the non-perchers exclusively. THere's certainly plenty room now :(
The house has quite big vent windows above perch height but the house is sited so that the windows are on the side away from the prevailing wind, so there shouldn't be a howling gale going in (except last year when the wind came from the "wrong" direction).
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Could you put a max/min thermometer near the perches? It may not be a cold house that's killing them, but if they're ailing and cold then they'll be less able to weather the ailment.
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Could do - will see if we have one kicking around here.
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How sad I feel for you :hug: . I hatched my own last year and-touch wood- haven't lost any so far :fc: . It's terribly upsetting when it happens. I can't think of anything wrong-maybe just not strong enough. Mine have layers and corn in a big galvanized feeder so plenty of room for all, then veg at midday and corn before roosting or in the winter I give them warm porridge with honey and a few raisins. It's a case of trying to keep them as fit as possible, as I see it, but a lot of the time I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. Hope your others are okay, best wishes :hug:
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daft question im sure
have you checked with the supplier to see if they know of any problems with the batch, im sure if they were selling POL like that they hatched a lot more than 40 at that time...
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TBH, they were nearly all down the road and I'd have got a few just for eggs for us but I LIKE selling eggs to local people and they do appreciate the quality and freshness and we get lots of good feedback - and that's what we're about - local food for local people.
I have two feeders out - one treadle feeder outside and a "normal" feeder in the house, so they have easy access. Mixed corn in the afternoon and they're getting codliver oil twice a week, on wholemeal bread (that's REALLY popular - it's like a Hitchcock movie).
Hopefully we're over the worst :fc:
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Was it case of fine one minute and dead the next time you looked? If you noticed them ailing beforehand it could be something like Marek's or avian leucosis (can't walk, wing stretched out to side) which you didn't mention in the vaccination list.
I prefer to hatch eggs rather than buy in, that way I know they've been correctly fed and I don't have to worry about bringing in disease.
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A lot of beginners aren't experienced enough to feed chickens correctly from the egg up to POL. Buying in POL should be the easiest hassle free way of beginning with poultry.
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I don't like hatching eggs because I don't like dispatching cockerels, although with the right breed, we could run them for meat.
I've thought about getting a flock of pure hens and doing a hybrid myself - RIR x LS or similar - but it's just not top of the priority list atm.
Anyway, they all seem chipper now.
Yes, done for Mareks but not avian leucosis but not displaying those symptoms, MF.
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Well I got a batch of Copper Blacks POL in September 2012 (from a well known breeder etc etc) and within weeks my homebred similar ages hens were starting to die off.... one after the other... then the POL's started to keel over too... then the stoat took the last three....
So after spending good money on POL's I am now back to home breeding, I bring in fresh cockerels once a year (from other smallholders or leave a homebred one from "alien" eggs), and also take eggs for hatching from other smallholders... We do like Chicken Tikka Massala and coq au vin...My chooks are now nearly all Copper Maran.
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Sorry to hear you have lost these hens.
we had a bad batch once, they came through someone we knew but we think this person may have bought them from someone else, I think they may have been reared inside and then came straight to our free range system in the winter and they just were not hardy enough. we did self diagnose ( I think it was avian TB, but it was a few yrs ago now). They had yellow legions in their throat and were gasping for breath. Anyway we gave the antibiotics and after that didn't loose any.
I'd be very surprised if it was due to cold as mine have happily survived in -15 conditions and even a few layed.
Hope you are over the worst x
Rosie