The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: thenovice on November 12, 2013, 07:20:20 pm
-
Been given the green light by the good lady for a couple of cows on our limited acreage. Never kept cattle before, so looking for ideas for suitable small breeds, that are good doers, will overwinter with just a field shelter, and not destroy the land completely. I live in Kent, and have local herds of both Sussex and dexter cattle. I like and can see the merits of both breeds, but any other suggestions? Also basic essential equipment. Ta very much :thinking:
-
Still have an aim that one of these days we'll get a couple of cows to join the crew. To date only been window shopping. Dexters always been a favourite but have been struck by australian lowline cattle I've seen at agri shows. Like mini anguses. Devon reds are a bigger cow but not huge and very docile. Obviously popular round my area
-
Also consider shetlands and kerry cattle? Both small and hardy breeds.
-
What about Shetlands? That's what we have and they are lovely cattle. Small, thrifty, hardy and docile. Milky and good mothers. Remember, they were developed to share the house with the crofters, so docile is good ;D
We just put our first bullock away; we got 163kg beef back (well, 158 back and 5 to a local piemaker) and it is fabulous. He was 28 months; never seen a bag of feed; wintered last year on straw and a licky bucket and finished off grass.
If you search in the Diary above for cattle, you'll see more of our experiences. All I woudl say is that Shetlands are very rare (not expensive, just rare) so if you do decide to have them, please breed pure and help look after the breed.
-
Dexter fan here. I buy in a couple of steers each year to fatten up. As I am not breeding, they arrive with a premovement test and usually go within a year direct to slaughter I have an annual TB test exemption. That has helped with saving costs and not needing handling equipment. The major bonus is the quality of the meat. I am a grass feed only with supplement hay in the winter.
-
Got both Dexters and Shetlands here now but not had them long enough to compare........... love both breeds.
-
One suggestion was get a couple of calves, or young steers out of the market to fatten up first, to see how I get on handling the cattle. I love jerseys, and a possibility is to put her to a beef to supply me with meat. I may have to make do with whats local. Any thoughts?
-
That might not be a bad idea. If you have a local dairy farm, maybe you could buy a couple of young dairy x beef calves and rear them, either after weaning or starting with milk. It won't be a great carcase (from a dairy x) but you'll get plenty meat for yourself. Bucket reared, they shoudl be easy to handle.
-
Top idea rosemary. Just spoken to an experienced cow man, and he suggested the same thing. Hoping to raise a couple on the bucket to start with, and learn as I go :thumbsup:
-
Maybe castrated ones , dairy bulls aren't funny to deal with, not sure about crosses but cAstrated ones should be fine
-
Maybe castrated ones , dairy bulls aren't funny to deal with, not sure about crosses but cAstrated ones should be fine
I agree - raising dairy bulls is a specialist area.
-
Interesting post this as I'll soon be in the same situation, looking for a few cattle but I'm a novice. We fancy highlands ( we croft on skye) can anyone advise me about these as an option.
-
A pointer to the introductory guide on the main TAS site that Rosemary wrote:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/an-introduction-to-keeping-cattle/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/cattle/an-introduction-to-keeping-cattle/) :cow:
-
Hi hamish crofter we run highland cattle we have 3 cows with there calfs at foot we find them very easy you just have to be careful of there horns don't be frightened of them just be aware you have to have handling equipment does not have to be special crush and if you feed hay or anything like that you don't have to have special feeders we use horned sheep feeders.
-
Hi,
I'm fairly new to cattle keeping and the cows that I chose were Highlands. The horns are just something to be aware of...I have 8 cows and a bull, and have 4 calves from last year and 5 from this year and they are all very well mannered and are aware of their horns, but you do have to have suitable handling facilities and feeders to accommodate their horns. I suppose there will be bad tempered highlands out there, but my experience with them has been entirely positive.
Highlands are good for conservation grazing as well due to them being lighter than commercial cattle and eating more of a variety of vegetation than a commercial animal.
I luv my coos and I wouldn't change them for anything else!
-
We keep Dexters and Highlands.
Dexters, being small, readily available and cheap, are what a large proportion of smallholders start with.
However the Highlands are much more docile. They are incredibly easy to keep. Being a largely unimproved breed, they have a digestive system 30% more efficient than most other breeds, so do not need concentrates, but can fatten readily on forage alone.
They are fascinating animals and have a definite herd hierarchy. So the top cow is always the first to eat and drink. If she approaches, the lower order cows will move away to make room for her. So if you have a feed ring with 12 spaces, you will only get 2 cows feeding at any one time, one at each side. We have about 10 highland cows and use 3 feed rings so they all get a chance to feed, otherwise the ones at the bottom of the pecking order will have to wait hours to feed once a new bale of hay has been put in. The funniest thing is if some of our dexters are in with the highlands because the dexters don't recognise this pecking order. So when there's a new bale the dexters just push in and start eating, and nothing, but nothing will shift a dexter till it's had enough. The highlands get very put out by this as it destroys their system and they can't understand that a dexter is completely unintimidated by their horns.
So having said that, I must admit the highlands are my favourite every time.
-
This is great news, thank you
-
We keep Dexters and Highlands.
Dexters, being small, readily available and cheap, are what a large proportion of smallholders start with.
However the Highlands are much more docile. They are incredibly easy to keep. Being a largely unimproved breed, they have a digestive system 30% more efficient than most other breeds, so do not need concentrates, but can fatten readily on forage alone.
They are fascinating animals and have a definite herd hierarchy. So the top cow is always the first to eat and drink. If she approaches, the lower order cows will move away to make room for her. So if you have a feed ring with 12 spaces, you will only get 2 cows feeding at any one time, one at each side. We have about 10 highland cows and use 3 feed rings so they all get a chance to feed, otherwise the ones at the bottom of the pecking order will have to wait hours to feed once a new bale of hay has been put in. The funniest thing is if some of our dexters are in with the highlands because the dexters don't recognise this pecking order. So when there's a new bale the dexters just push in and start eating, and nothing, but nothing will shift a dexter till it's had enough. The highlands get very put out by this as it destroys their system and they can't understand that a dexter is completely unintimidated by their horns.
So having said that, I must admit the highlands are my favourite every time.
Not sure I agree with you on that one, yes on the heirarchy as there will always be one within any kind of herd animal, but we have over 50 beef cows and they all feed between 2 rings and I can assure you more than 2 cows feed at any 1 time!
OP- I would steer away from dairy bull beef or raising on the bucket, and would be more inclined to find a local herd of the breed you like and buy some weaned stores direct from the farmer at 6mths old.
-
OP- I would steer away from dairy bull beef or raising on the bucket, and would be more inclined to find a local herd of the breed you like and buy some weaned stores direct from the farmer at 6mths old.
Why? I wouldn't do dairy bulls either but if OP can get a couple of dairy x beef and raise them? I used to work as calf rearer so I'd be interested to know your reservations.
-
Given what prices dairy x beef calves are making at market, I just think it would make more financial sense to buy weaned stores from a beef herd, something like Red Ruby Devons are a nice smaller native breed. Raising on the bucket means a cost of housing, milk powder, cake, before the calf can be turned out to grass, and if this is the OP's first time with cattle I think a few weaned 6-7mth stores from a suckler herd would be better.
-
But bucket reared calves would be much easier to handle - a couple of 7 month old unhandled beef calves could be a bit of a handful.
-
We have a 2 yr old lim heifer that was raised on the bucket as she was very small when born- she is the size of an 8mth old calf now, she can be a bit of a pain really, doesn't have as much respect for you, no spacial awareness and can be quite bargy, like any artificially reared animal. You have to be very confident around her or she will knock you over! She spent the summer out with a group of 8-12mth old calves that were weaned June time, who after a month or so of feeding a small amount of corn every day now come to a bucket and when called quite easily.
-
Well, we're making sure the OP has lots of information :thumbsup:
-
I reading all comments with interest thanks peoples. Having spoken to more experienced stockman, I do wonder if bucket reared dairy cross calves might be a bit delicate/hard work for a novice. Down here im looking at £1000 plus for a sussex cow, which is out of my price range. But I have tracked down some reasonably priced dexters (£350 - £500), but that still aint cheap. What price are you folks paying for your cattle?
-
£450 - £500 for a weaned calf, bull, bullock or heifer; I've never bought an adult Shetland.
-
Paid £500 for a pair of 1 year old weaned Dexter steers.
We have to pay £85 kill cost regardless of size but the butcher charges per kilo. We also sent our first ones a little early as we where hungry!!! The same fate may happen to the current pair as we are out of beef in the freezer. They will get a small reprieve as lambs due back next week!!!
-
We have about 10 highland cows and use 3 feed rings so they all get a chance to feed, otherwise the ones at the bottom of the pecking order will have to wait hours to feed once a new bale of hay has been put in.
--- "Not sure I agree with you on that one, yes on the heirarchy as there will always be one within any kind of herd animal, but we have over 50 beef cows and they all feed between 2 rings and I can assure you more than 2 cows feed at any 1 time! "----
I assume twizzel that your 50 beef cows are not highlands, which have a herd hierarchy unlike any other breed.
Highlands would not all get a chance to feed with only 2 rings between 50 cows, and nothing else to eat.
I once bought 10 highlands from a chap who had one feed ring between 14 of them. The 2 top cows weighed 600kg. The 2 at the bottom of the pecking order weighed 275 and 320kg and he had no idea because of their thick coats. The feed ring was emptied by the time the inferior ones were allowed near it.
-
I reading all comments with interest thanks peoples. Having spoken to more experienced stockman, I do wonder if bucket reared dairy cross calves might be a bit delicate/hard work for a novice. Down here im looking at £1000 plus for a sussex cow, which is out of my price range. But I have tracked down some reasonably priced dexters (£350 - £500), but that still aint cheap. What price are you folks paying for your cattle?
In yorkshire you can easily get a yearling dexter for £150 - £200.
We sell highlands at £400 - yearling
£600 - 2 year old heifer in calf
£850 - cow with calf and run with bull again.
-
Wish we had those prices down here. £250 for weaned dexter heifers, or £500-600 for 12month old normal sized heifer
-
Where are you then?
-
The good old Garden of England! Being in the south East, aand close to London, we pay top dollar for everything :(
-
Just out of curiosity, how much beef do you get from a Dexter?
-
I've had cows for two and a half years now - we bought in a Jersey x Freisian with her 3 week old Belgian blue x heifer calf at foot. £400 for both as she had a dropped udder meaning she would no longer be able to be milked commerically. She took to hand milking within three days. We kept the calf on until she was 16 months old and sold her the day after her half-brother was born (belgian blue x steer). He was then sold at market a couple of months ago at 9 months. He fetched £589 and his sister fetched £689. Both calves were really docile as they were around us daily as mum was being milked. This year we've also taken on two dairy bull calves (one jersey x and one shorthorn x) that were going to be shot so we're just taking that a day at a time, but, again, they're around us daily and we make a point of spending time each day with them to keep them tame. Big fan of Jersey x mummy cows, we lost our Betty cow last week, still very raw in some really shitty circumstances but we will probably try and get another one but not yet :(
-
When choosing a breed for really good pasture such as I guess you have in Kent, I would urge you to avoid a northern / hardy type such as Highland, Galloway, Shetland, Blue Grey, Red Devon. All of these breeds are likely to become obese on your good ground!
Rearing calves on a bucket does require some experience and/or some luck, but if you do decide to go that route then get ones who are at least one month old and are in tip-top, glowing health, to give yourself a fighting chance ;)
A cross calf - beef bull on dairy cow - would be the sort you'd be likely to be able to buy at a young age.
A weaned suckler calf, reared on its beef suckler mum, sold at 6-9 months old, would probably be very standoffish /flighty at first but as has been said, a bit of cake will help to settle them. I'd avoid continental breeds and choose Angus or Beef Shorthorn, or your local breed if there is one. Definitely avoid Limousin and Charollais. British Blue might do too well on your ground and have heart problems.
I have friends with Dexters who absolutely love them, and I have to say theirs are very nice-looking cattle. Some Dexters are not as quiet as others, so make sure you get ones from calm stock ;)
Jerseys are a small breed but only useful for milk and breeding really. Once you are experienced, then a Jersey cow will give you milk for the house, a calf every year, and rear a few bought-in calves too. :love: :cow:
-
------------
When choosing a breed for really good pasture such as I guess you have in Kent, I would urge you to avoid a northern / hardy type such as Highland, Galloway, Shetland, Blue Grey, Red Devon. All of these breeds are likely to become obese on your good ground!/quote]---------
Obviously, you're right Sally in that the more traditional breeds will fatten faster on better grass than they would do on say rough moorland.
But fatten is what you want them to do, and the faster you can grow them on the grass available, the better. We have very good grass and can fatten a highland on grass alone in under 30 months. The breeding stock are in good condition, but not obese, as the grass is managed to suit their needs.
-
Yes, but you aren't a novice, landroverroy ;). For a novice on very good ground, I would recommend not getting a hardy thrify native ;)
Plus, you are near Pontefract. Significantly better ground than me, and than the Highlands, I grant you. But I suspect Kent is better yet ;)
-
Just out of curiosity, how much beef do you get from a Dexter?
Rosemary
I took mine in at 2 years old and we had around 90kgs from one and 70kgs from the other. One was was very lean and I the other was a short. They where hung for 32 days and that also knocks the finished weight back a bit. That weight was what came back vac packed ready to eat!! I was happy but would have liked to have hit 100kgs.
-
It sounds like it might be worth travelling north to buy cattle?
I don't have any, so I'm passing on second hand knowledge. But some small farmer friends of mine have both Shetlands and Galloways. They much prefer the Galloways, partly because they're polled. But also, they have a good market for their calves, folk like the look of them I think. They have Belted and Whites (the whites have brown or black ears-and-noses ;D)
-
I haven't been on the forum for a while but couldn't resist a little plug for our favourite breed, the Traditional Hereford. They have horns but a number of breeders dehorn them at birth and I know you have a breeder quite near you. You could have a couple of cows but as a rare breed you would be expected to breed from them, or you could buy some steers and rear them. They are incredibly quiet to handle, if a bit stubborn, and their meat quality is famous. They are cheap to buy as weaned calves and will live on very little. They really are easy care cattle.
-
Having been brought up with galloways, I would suggest they are possibly not the ideal choice for a novice cow keeper. I love them, but in general they are stroppy madams who are very quick to spot even the teeniest sign that you are not totally confident in what you are doing and take advantage.
I know nothing about traditional Herefords, but think they are beautiful. I also saw some red poll cows at a sale a wee while back, and thought they were lovely - does anyone know anything about them, I'd never seen one in the flesh before.
-
If they are your first don't bottle raise, its hard enough to put them off if you haven't had that much to do with them.
Also get something with Aberdeen Angus in it either pure or sired, that way you can put a few through the prime market and get the AA prices, eat 4 sell 3 covers all costs.
-
Also get something with Aberdeen Angus in it either pure or sired, that way you can put a few through the prime market and get the AA prices, eat 4 sell 3 covers all costs.
The premium, 10ppk deadweight, is payable on all pedigree-sired native breed beef, I think. Certainly Aberdeen Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn. In fact, it's 20ppk for Shorthorn.
The premium is in fact paid only by Morrisons (gawd bless 'em, they really do help British farmers and British breeds :) ) but as they are a big buyer it impacts all sales of such beasts and meat.
You will need the bull's pedigree, or at least pedigree name / number, to go with the calves' passports, and tell the auctioneer to announce that you have this information, in order for buyers to go that extra bid or two.
-
Jerseys are a small breed but only useful for milk and breeding really. Once you are experienced, then a Jersey cow will give you milk for the house, a calf every year, and rear a few bought-in calves too. :love: :cow:
True Sally, but a Jersey cross would be ideal - small, gentle, easy calving, etc etc.
British Blue X Jersey is my cross of choice. Cracking house cow or suckler cow. They calve really easily, are very docile, and will produce a good beef animal if crossed back to a beef bull.
-
Just came across this post. We have 4 jersey girls. Bought the first 2 as 3 week old calves and hand reared them, then a year later got another 2 and did the same. All are halter broken and a delight to handle. 2 were AI'd last summer but only managed to get one in calf, due in april. Went with an Aberdeen Angus, meant to be a very good cross for meat. This is their first winter living out and have done really well, they are on our HLS ground so we cant supplimentry feed but they are all growing well on 10 acres of dry ground, with a lick bucket constantly available. In the summer they go out on our water meadows. Hopefully get both older girls in calf this summer, leaving the younger 2 till next year to AI. Definitly love jerseys! Very easy cows to deal with.
-
Milked Jerseys for 2 years a number of moons ago .... I love them ..... shame it is too wet and high here to have them unless housed in winter ..... hence I have Dexters and Shetlands :hug: them too!!
Jersey's can be put to large continentals for very good beef
-
Anyone experienced a dexter x Belgium blue?
-
Anyone experienced a dexter x Belgium blue?
I would have thought it would be a useful animal. I don't know that I'd create one on purpose, but I would think it would be a grand suckler cow and should milk well enough for a house cow. Should be reasonable temperament too - the Blues are generally fairly laid back and biddable.
BTW, these days you are less likely to come across Belgium Blue and more likely to find British Blue. It's established as a separate breed now, and the breed soc believe they have addressed some of the issues with the original Belgian beasts. So smaller calves, shorter gestation => easier calvings, less extreme double muscling so less problems with hearts and birth canals. So they say. Certainly we use British Blue semen and do find we get shorter gestation and therefore smaller birthweight calves, which then go on and do well.
-
Reason I ask is my Dexter is in calf to an easy calving BB. Wanted to put Angus on her this time but she broke to that and was only BB available (we have straws off a friend). It's her 8 or 9th calf and she's never had a problem calving so thought I'd give it a go. Thinking I'll maybe keep the calf if it's a heifer as a house cow but will have to see how it goes.
-
You'll likely find the gestation is a few days shorter - maybe as short as 278, so make sure you're watching her closely a bit earlier than you might usually!
Yes, if she has a heifer it could be a nice house cow :)
Let us know how you get on!
-
We rear British Friesian x British Blue heifer calves in the lambing shed through summer and autumn each year and they've a really laid back temperament. Now our calves are highly sought after as potential suckler cows when we take them to market.
-
We rear British Friesian x British Blue heifer calves in the lambing shed through summer and autumn each year and they've a really laid back temperament. Now our calves are highly sought after as potential suckler cows when we take them to market.
I'll bet they are - are they real BF x rather than Holstein?
-
Re the original post - We opted for Devons and never looked back! Though very similar to the Sussex which you'll have plenty of nearby I'm sure. You could do a lot worse than go meet and chat to breeders near you. Personally I'd steer clear of Dexters, though they have their fans on this site!
Ease of handling with no facilities was the main thing, tough yet quiet - Started with a couple of in calf cows on a welsh hillside, out-wintering in a shelter, TB tested behind a gate (actually didn't even need the gate!) and scanned standing still for a bucket of food - Greed counts for a lot!
Rearing calves is a doddle once you know what you're doing, but need plenty of air, cleanliness and a vigilant eye for being off colour...
Keep us posted!
-
We rear British Friesian x British Blue heifer calves in the lambing shed through summer and autumn each year and they've a really laid back temperament. Now our calves are highly sought after as potential suckler cows when we take them to market.
I'll bet they are - are they real BF x rather than Holstein?
Yes, real, original ones, nicely brought up and the all-time favourites of our veterinary practice.