The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Vegetables => Topic started by: Dans on November 10, 2013, 08:19:32 pm
-
Hi all
Looking for some advice once again.
Have signed up with my work's allotment programme. It's just a small patch. 4 raised beds and about the same space again in bare ground. There's raspberries and blackcurrants at the back but other than that it is just weeds. There's no electric or access with vehicles at the site (have to climb a fence to get to it lol) but there's a tap and it's all mine for the next 9 months at least.
I figure I will clear the weeds first, just by pulling them by hand and digging over, but not sure what to do next. Is it too late to get anything in the ground? Is it just best to get it prepped and wait for the spring? I'm just south of Edinburgh.
Thanks for any advice.
Dans
-
i would weed, till, and cover in black plastic, in hope other weeds will die off with no sunlight. maybe manure too. enjoy the winter planning. you can plant through the plastic in the spring - it should warm up the soil a wee bit.
things like onion seeds need growing over winter for a spring planting, though i expect it needs being under cover.
winter is for planning and dreaming :excited:
-
You can always plant some garlic now so you have something to look after while you sort the rest of the plot. I'm going to be planting mine this month. I usually do onions too but at the allotment assoc the old guys said wait until spring so I will this time and see the difference.
Have fun at your plot and don't forget a chair so you can sit back and admire your work. :sunshine: :garden:
-
Good luck Dans.
I guess you can get organised with paths and a planting pan and then maybe sort out a compost area or build 2-3 compost New Zealand compost boxes. yes I would turn the soil and remove the nasty weeds - manure- then maybe cover what soil you can with carpet or a black sheet.
When I had my allotements I would spend an age removing every weed root but now I just dig them in and let them return to the soil. I hoe between long lines when I have things planted out.
One tip - think space and use the winter to read planting techniques becuase the instructions on seed packets go for sparce planting rather than a sensible use of space. Eg - haricot bean seeds are best planted in clusters of 4-5 so that they self support and carrots can be sprinkled very liberally in a 3 inch wide strip ( pour water over before thinning them). Use the space to the max with succesional planting - a 6-9 inch strip of lettuce seed will serve you a couple of weeks and grow well without transplanting).
-
Thanks guys.
There's already a joint compost heap there so I'll keep adding to that for now. Garlic sounds like a great idea as the hubby and I love it and we have none planted in the garden. I have one bed clear already so will order some garlic, get it dug over and planted. Will they need fleece or anything to protect them over the winter?
I took a punt at planting some onion sets in the garden today, wasn't sure if it was too late but figured give it a go as the bed was empty. Didn't want to look a fool planting it at the allotment though :innocent:
Dans
-
November is a good time to be starting an allotment. You can get it dug over and tidied up, if you have any usable compost you can spread a layer on as many of the beds as it will cover (depth of an inch or three) then put black plastic or old carpet over the beds for the winter and let the worms work the compost into the soil. It's well worth covering the beds in winter, rain on bare soil leeches away nutrients and damages the soil structure.
Another thing you could try if you have lots of weeds and little compost is sheet composting. Nominate one bed for this and as you dig up the weeds chuck the compostable ones (not perennials or seeding weeds) onto this bed to form a thick layer. you can add in a bit of shredded newspaper too, not too much, then cover with several thicknesses of newspaper and a layer of black plastic or carpet once again. The worms will take this down over the winter and by late March all you'll have to do is rake off a few of the tougher un-composted stems before planting.,
Garlic will be fine at this time of year, it's extremely hardy and needs a bit of a freeze to bulb up properly. I'm up in East Lothian and my garlic came through the weather of two winters ago no problem.
I agree with the suggestion of looking at spacings for planting in beds rather than the traditional rows, you can squeeze a lot more into a bed that way, though you need to keep the soil fertility up for intensive cropping. I'd start my own compost bins if I were you on some of that open section. Even for four beds you'll need plenty of compost and you never know exactly what goes into communal composting heaps, some folk add in all their perennial weeds and diseased plants like it was a rubbish heap.
If you have a greenhouse or cold frame at home then you can raise plants there for transplanting out at the allotment, it can give you a faster start in the spring
-
If you are planning on growing organically, I wouldn't use old carpets as they can leach out chemicals according to Garden Organic. I did try to find the reference on their site but couldn't get it for some reason.
-
I remember reading an article too about potential toxins in carpets, I think it might have been from Bob Flowerdew in Kitchen Garden mag, that used to be my main reading material. Iirc though he said the main worry was from frequent use of industrial cleaning chemicals and residues so I decided my lounge carpet was quite safe given the frequency of (non) washing it had received! The one real negative of using wool blend carpets long term is that the wool component decays into the soil leaving a mesh of synthetic threads tightly bound together with weeds. 100% synthetic is better in this respect than 80% wool! But just for over the winter this shouldn't be a problem. Oh, and foam backed is a no-no, the foam just flakes off into your soil.
-
I planted onions sets as late as December one year and they were perfectly ok... I would protect them, though - not against the frost, against birds that love to pull them out!
-
I agree about carpets being a bit of a no-no, for various reasons. The best way to cover the soil that I have found is to use thick cardboard boxes, opened out - you can get them from places which sell washing machines and so on. Overlap them over the surface and hold down with bricks or rocks. The cardboard disappears entirely by planting time, leaving just a few strips of tape which are easily collected up. I have used these over a good layer of FYM and they metamorphose into the most wonderful, friable soil, waiting to plant into in Spring with no work at all. If there are still perennial weeds in the soil, it's so open that they are very easy to get out with a fork or just by pulling. In fact thinking about it :thinking: it's just what my garden needs after 3 years of neglect :idea: :garden:
-
I don't do the covering in plastic thing to clear weeds . I dig up as much of them as i can , including all roots . Then once clear i allow the weed seeds to germinate . Clear that flush of weeds when they are 1-2 weeks old . Rake and level , allow the weed seeds to germinate again , clear as before . Each time you do this the amount of weeds that pop up will get much less , as there will be less weed seeds in the soil . After 4 or 5 flushes there will be hardly any weed seeds and any root that escaped the fork will have popped up and been pulled out , result , a clean veg bed that requires very little weeding .
Leave any manure for a week or so to flush the weed seed also .
I would avoid the communal compost bin too .
I avoid newspaper and cardboard now , due to chemicals in paper/cardboard and print . I do burn it and use the ashes though , i think most of the chems are gone then ?
You can pop in broad beans , round seeded peas , cabbages maybe ?
But clearing would save lots of weeding later on .
Mind you , not many weeds will germinate now lol .
-
I agree with Rusty.
My first allotment plot I couldn't wait to start planting. That was a big mistake. I never stopped weeding it and had couch grass coming up for years.
My plot number two I did as rusty has suggested, I got it in August and continually weeded by hand until the spring when I manures it heavily. I then planted through the manure and the had very little weeding to do that year, dug it over in the winter and then carried on as usual.
Never dug it again, just manures as each section was cleared in the autumn/winter.
-
I'm not sure how well the clearing will work on my patch as I'm next door to a patch that has weeds as tall as me and is currently un-claimed. They are trying to get the last owner to clear it as he just gave up on it and didn't tell anyone. Think I may suffer a lot of weeds coming from that plot :-/
Dans
-
Might be worth slashing the weeds down and covering them up then, just to stop them spreading back to you. If it's only four beds it would be worth your time and might encourage a new plot holder to take over.
-
Just cut the weeds down in the next plot , to stop them seeding . Also keep an eye on any creeping weed roots spreading on to your plot . If next door plot is empty and unclaimed , why not ask for that too ?
-
Pulling weeds or digging them in and hoeing is a dilema. For years I had clean beds and would pull weeds and go for a tidy plot. Now I follow my 2 neighbours who are plus 80 years old and have a lad ploug up their veg plot in spring and plant seed and spuds in the raised rows. They sow and plant very close together and hoe between the rows.
What I don't understand is why they have no weeds amongst their lettuce, carrots etc etc. they plant by the moon and have set dates for sowing and harvesting so maybe if they get vigourous plant growth at the optimum time of year it dominates weed growth. They are surrounded by cattle pasture and we all only control nettle growth (by hacking them to bits a few times a year).
I'm for hoeing from now on - less work.
-
Yes , when you first start a plot , you dig over and remove all perennial weeds and all roots , thereafter , as the weed seeds germinate you hoe them at about 1-2 weeks . The chopped tops just die off and rot down as do the tiny roots . After a few times of doing this , very few weed seeds are left in the soil , thus very little weeding .
-
Hoeing is my ideal too. However for that approach to be effective you need the soil surface to dry out. In some years here in Scotland that never happens all 'summer'. Seems impossible if you live in a drier area, but believe me it is the case. If you try to hoe in wet conditions, all you do is uproot the tiny weed seedlings and they simply re-root themselves. The hoe gets sticky with soil so no longer cuts through any stems, and the seedlings never dry out and die in the sun. So here we have to look for alternatives.
The repeated weeding approach sounds sensible too, unless you have health problems and simply cannot manage that amount of work consistently. For this reason I try a variety of other ways to garden, which include accepting a certain amount of weed cover, as long as I can keep the perennials out. Some weeds don't seem to affect crop production, although certain things such as onions hate any competition - so they get special treatment.
I wasn't aware that there were any noxious chemicals in cardboard manufacture, except maybe a bit of glue. Which ones are present? I know the glossy mags and printing ink are bad, but I use plain thick cardboard.
-
I can't search for the info now , but cardboard with print on had iffy chems , can't remember which one's , but i know i don't want them in my food and thus me !
Also cardboard made with recycled cardboard and paper has the chems that were in the paper .
I read the info in an article on a gardening website , can't remember which one , it was 3 or 4 years ago now , but i should think the info on what chemicals cardboard contains is fairly easy to find with a pc .
Some cardboard was ok , other stuff wasn't , i just chose not to bother risking it . I burn it and use the ashes , which i read and thought it would be , is meant to be ok to use , no more chems than fall from the sky in rain . Nothing i can do about them lol !
So , it is a matter of choice fw .
It would defeat the object of gardening chem free , if i then went and pumped the ground full of chems via unknown ingredients in cardboard .
I just like to know exactly what i put in my soil , as near as possible anyway .
I don't apply any chemicals in any form , only use horse manure from my horses , only fed organic haylage and oats or barley and no chemical wormers .
I get some cow manure that is from organically kept cows , no chems .
I also apply compost i make from vegetation from my own land , therefore no added chems .
I can't do anything about the rain or any wind blown spray , but i can do something about what i add to the ground .
-
Did it relate to this at all Rusty?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12663183 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12663183)
Dans
-
Yes . That was the one that made me do a bit more searching at the time Dans .
The mineral oils are also in some of the print on cardboard . There are other chemicals used in the paper making process that also i would rather not feed to my plants . Like petro chemicals they can take upto 100 years , maybe longer , to leave the soil , but where do they go then ?
-
Eeeek :tired: WE'RE ALL DOOMED :o
The bit which is relevant to the cardboard I have used is the last sentence:
<<This is because food cartons are themselves stored and transported in larger corrugated cardboard boxes which are also made from recycled newspapers, and are also a source of contamination.>>
It would be good to get access to the original research rather than the press's take on it.
Dans do you still have access to academic papers?
Cereal boxes etc would not be of any use for covering the soil, and print has long been known to be carcinogenic - I used to work for the NHS in Dundee which has a big printing industry and there was still a number of cases of men with penile cancer from working in the print world :( Guess who didn't wash their hands?
The big thick cardboard though is great - bummer if it really is toxic.
One alternative I can think of is old sheets of corrugated iron, but they are difficult to pin down in a gale and are lethal when they fly about the place. They would leach iron no doubt, but my soil already has plenty of the naturally occurring stuff.
-
As I understand it it's the coloured inks used on shiny paper and cardboard that are the ones that are best to avoid, black ink and coloured matt paper are okay. I may be out of date here though, I often am! I've never used cereal packet cardboard or glossy magazines in the compost bins for that reason though I do use newsprint, loo roll inners, egg boxes and all the notes that come back from school.,I must admit though I'm not the most committed of organic gardeners, I don't use chemicals directly on the garden but I'm not too concerned about putting the peelings of a supermarket (non-organic) carrot in the compost bin. .
-
Corrugated iron would most likely be ok if it wasn't galvanised ! The fumes from galvanised metal are lethal when welding , so in theory , would leave a dangerous residue in the soil over time , i do use corrugated iron , for roofing not for covering soil though .
I think the poisons in galv are locked in , until it is burnt , by fire or welding .
-
There must be a sensible organic alternative to cardboard or sheet metal. I cut down a load of ferns around a barn but forgot to move them off the grass for a few weeks. When I did move them them the soild beneath was bare. I guess the question is if the ferns were just simply cuts out the light or if whatever leaches out of the ferns would be nasty for the plants we want to grow nearby.
We are lucky in July and August as it gets a bit hot so hoeing is easy if not a little dusty.
-
Different ferns have different chemicals , some are poisonous , lol .
Organic straw would be the way to go i suppose , not dug in though , just used as mulch and then composted , just like use on the strawberry bed .
-
Just use a layer of (non perennial) weeds? Or grow some green manure, slash it down and leave it. I've used comfrey as green mulch too, I had a big bed of it on the allotment and it was useful for all sorts of things. You could even use a thick layer of leaves held down with a net.
-
Would that be a plastic net ?
-
Would that be a plastic net ?
:stir: :roflanim:
Obviously no-one has seen my weeds - they're not sweet little well behaved things but giant thugs which wouldn't be remotely slowed down by layers of straw, no matter how organic, leaves, compost, newspaper, that brown paper you can spend your £££s on. I have tried the black polythene mulch :o :o :o but the weeds just see it as a momentary setback, and even grow on top of it. I have sometimes wondered if I should concrete over the lot - but I'm sure some of my weeds would still find a way through :hohoho:
-
Would that be a plastic net ?
Well, if we were going to be completely purist here you should knot your own nets out of hand made cordage using organic flax or better still, made from the nettles that you weeded from your garden last year. But I suspect most folk would use a plastic net. ;D
-
Obviously no-one has seen my weeds - they're not sweet little well behaved things but giant thugs which wouldn't be remotely slowed down by layers of straw, no matter how organic, leaves, compost, newspaper, that brown paper you can spend your £££s on. I have tried the black polythene mulch :o :o :o but the weeds just see it as a momentary setback, and even grow on top of it. I have sometimes wondered if I should concrete over the lot - but I'm sure some of my weeds would still find a way through :hohoho:
Flamethrower?
-
In all honesty I have been tempted by flaming the weeds in my garden, the concrete the previous owners put down doesn't stop them.
I'm unable to get to the allotment for the next two weeks so will spend that time looking into the cardboard. It does seem like the best solution except for the chemicals. Gah.
Dans
-
I used hemp to make my net . Home grown , retted , processed and spun , the horses eat most of the stinging nettles , but have used it to make string and sacking ! I did buy some plastic netting , still in the boxes unused .
-
There must be a sensible organic alternative to cardboard or sheet metal.
I cut down a load of ferns around a barn but forgot to move them off the grass for a few weeks. When I did move them them the soild beneath was bare. I guess the question is if the ferns were just simply cuts out the light or if whatever leaches out of the ferns would be nasty for the plants we want to grow nearby.
We are lucky in July and August as it gets a bit hot so hoeing is easy if not a little dusty.
Perhaps look up the website " Back to Eden" they use shredded green wood that has been composted laid over a compost bed they plant through the mulch and after a while very few weeds are around.
I understand that apparently most fern spores are carcinogenic , so you might like to see what you can find out by doing a bit of research online .