The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: feldar on October 18, 2013, 03:54:43 pm
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I have friend whose daughter is at Ag college and she has been asking around her sheepy friends a few questions for a project she's doing. If poss could some of you answer too as your spread about the countryside. Any answers gratefully received ( clean of course)
1. When choosing a ram for your flock do you look to shows be it Agricultural or NSA road shows for inspiration.
2. What criteria would you use to buy a ram. Show wins, Recommendations from friends or farming press, previous experience of breed.
3. Would you ever buy or try a new breed of ram if it was given excellant reviews in the farming press. Please include smallholding magazines etc
4. Do you think Agricultural shows and NSA road shows benefit all breeds of sheep commercially.
Hope i've got that all down right !! Many thanks for any help you can give her
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1) No
2) Recommendation of breeder then EBVs from said breeder.
3) No - Prefer word of mouth/Farming events
4) Ag shows - certainly not, NSA road shows I like, so yes.
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1. We breed pedigree Coloured Ryelands so NSA would be no use whatsoever. I know from show results who the big hitters in the CR showing world are
2. I'd look at the ram
3. No, because we breed pure
4. Not sure what's meant by "benefit" - if you mean do they promote all breeds equally, then no, but you wouldn't expect them to promote non-commercial breeds. That's the job of the breed societies.
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Havinh just got into portlands
1)yes we watch what bloodlines are doing well.
2)we look at any ram but like something that has sucessfully shown(unless ram lamb to grow/show ourselves) his breeding record.
3)No we use the portlands on our pure and x breds
4)Ag shows no, NSA yes
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Hi
I thought beyond your questions (comes from having been an Agric lecturer I guess!) . It is not obvious from the questions what this girl is trying to investigate... a few questions identifying respondents focus may have helped with sorting responses eg.....
Firstly answers from here likely to be bias towards pure breeds and possibly rare breeds... so choice of sire is within breed not a breed.
Commercial flocks use hybrid vigour so actual breed may not be as important as effect on lamb growth etc.
Output of flock will determine type of ram breed ..... is it to produce finished lamb, pedigree stock, draft ewes etc
Sorry if I have confused things but it is easy to gain loads of information for an investigation and then realise that you can't really conclude anything as it wasn't focussed enough to start with.
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1. Yes, amongst many other things
2. Yes to recommendations from farming neighbours, farming press and previous experience, no to show wins as shows are often looking for other criteria to commercial farmers and we are commercial farmers.
3. Yes, and have done
4. Yes, emphatically yes - but as others have said, only in terms of being a platform, the content of what is shown off is down to the breed soc's.
And I have to say I completely agree with Backinwellies' comments!
My answers are those of a commercial sheep farmer producing finished lambs and our own replacement ewes.
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1. Yes - time spent in reconnaisance is never wasted.
2. Depends on size of flock. For me:
personal preference of breed, and past experience will apply here.
price
judgement of breeder and rest of his flock
geographic location
3. Yes
4. Yes
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The rams are half the flok .you need the best for you're breed .some time back I bought registered stems becouse I wonted a type of ewe .Each season you need to improve the stock .The standard from the small holders growers was out stranded well kept sheep .its best to get a fuew good types and breed qwalatey.
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The rams are half the flok .you need the best for you're breed .some time back I bought registered stems becouse I wonted a type of ewe .Each season you need to improve the stock .The standard from the small holders growers was out stranded well kept sheep .its best to get a fuew good types and breed qwalatey.
Thats interesting because it is the polar opposite of my experience. Stock I have had from small flocks seems to fade away in a commercial situation. I don't stock heavily so I can only out it down to early conc feeding impairing rumen function....
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1) Breed non-commercials so not too fussed about fashion.
2) Prefer to choose from long-established flocks and buy off-farm, on the basis they'll have culled out their problems. Also like to ensure there's a wide genetic diversity - the same flock names can crop up time after time in the big name flocks and I don't think that's good for the breed over the longer term.
3) Have watched fashion go through Suffolk (breeding 'em too big for easy lambing), Texel (too wide at the front for easy lambing) and Charollais (too thin-skinned for harsh weather) and now coming back to traditional breeds - all that in the last ten years.
4) Agricultural shows and NSA shows always go for the big money breeds - they want the headliners.
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1 no
2 all depends on type of lamb your after
3 no
4 no
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Many Many thanks for all your replies and i will print and pass on to Laura. Many of you said the same as we did when she asked us the questions.
I think her aim was to see how much the " showing" side of things instigated sales and if there was any relationship bewteen the two.
Her background is Horses but she wants to go into farming so i think thought like the horse showing affects sales the same would be for the sheep.
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I can only out it down to early conc feeding impairing rumen function....
Can you elaborate on that? This is a long term effect of feeding concentrates early?
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I can only out it down to early conc feeding impairing rumen function....
Can you elaborate on that? This is a long term effect of feeding concentrates early?
Yes, it inhibits rumen development - this is one of the gripes commercial farmers have when buying rams etc that have been fed - they have been fed throughout their lives and you could put them on all the grass you like and they will still melt because the rumen didn't develop properly - meaning you need to feed them all their lives.
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I can only out it down to early conc feeding impairing rumen function....
Can you elaborate on that? This is a long term effect of feeding concentrates early?
Yes, it inhibits rumen development - this is one of the gripes commercial farmers have when buying rams etc that have been fed - they have been fed throughout their lives and you could put them on all the grass you like and they will still melt because the rumen didn't develop properly - meaning you need to feed them all their lives.
Do you have scientific evidence to back that up Steve or is just by word of mouth from disgruntled commercial farmers who may not have looked after their stock properly :-J
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Very sceptical ........ rumen develops with just some forage ... doesn't have to be 100% forage diet and noone totally feeds their sheep concentrates or they would die of bloat!
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I can only out it down to early conc feeding impairing rumen function....
Can you elaborate on that? This is a long term effect of feeding concentrates early?
Yes, it inhibits rumen development - this is one of the gripes commercial farmers have when buying rams etc that have been fed - they have been fed throughout their lives and you could put them on all the grass you like and they will still melt because the rumen didn't develop properly - meaning you need to feed them all their lives.
Do you have scientific evidence to back that up Steve or is just by word of mouth from disgruntled commercial farmers who may not have looked after their stock properly :-J
Its basically subacute acidosis.
Really nice picture of two rumens in this slideshow - although the talk is missing you can get the gist: http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/pdf_files/Performance-testing-of-rams27032012085011.pdf (http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/pdf_files/Performance-testing-of-rams27032012085011.pdf)
Nice definition of acidosis here although it goes on to talk of how to treat the acute form: http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/lambdisease.html (http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/lambdisease.html)
On a more general note, I feel that 'looking after' stock rams should mostly mean making sure they have enough grass to go at. There is the odd bucket you can give them if for whatever reason they are looking poor (green lid ones by MVF, for example), but they shouldn't need it. I expect their offspring to grow on milk and grass, therefore the fully grown adult version should maintain good body condition on grass. My rams are almost ready to go in, have had only grass since they last worked, serve at least 80 ewes each and all are above CS 3 - this goes for my Wilts, My Easycare, SufTexes and the Charrolais ram lamb I have just bought (Born Apr 2013 outside, no concs and is already 70KG - I'm impressed).
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I can understand where you are coming from Steve but on the lambing system i have i couldn't possibly not feed some concentrate or i would never finish any lambs for market at all.
December lambing coupled with no grass or any of quality would mean my lambs would really struggle.
As the baby lamb's rumen develops i have to challenge it with more than just grass and lamb creep is formulated to do this. There is a whole industry devoted to sheep nutrition and whilst i realise they want me to buy their product if it didn't work, me and a lot of other farmers wouldn't use it.
I don't agree with overfeeding any animal but you have to make good of what you have, and geography must come into it.
My ground is not good and though i've taken steps to improve it, i will only achieve so much. If i were in Devon or Dorset i probably wouldn't feed much concentrate.
I don't have a high incidence of acidosis because if you feed correctly this shouldn't happen.
I have friends who tip the grub into their animls and still top the market for tups, and sell year on year.
Our show lambs are fed yes but not overstuffed and as they mature they are backed off the concentrate gadually, we never feed the shearling rams because they need to go out and live and work and no-one has ever complained about any of our rams melting away when they get them. so whilst i agree with some of what you say, i think feeding is ok, if a little common sense is used.