The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Other => Topic started by: edawson on August 19, 2013, 02:28:20 pm
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Hello, I am new to the accidental smallholder. It has always been my dream to have a smallholding; some of the ways I have thought about of to make enough money to get by include: orchard (selling fruit, jams etc), petting farm, vegetables that would be used for my own consumption, also for veg boxes, and to sell at markets/farm shop, brewery, vine yard (not sure how possible this one is), milk from animals, cheese made from animals' milk, to name a few. Ok, so I am very much at the dreaming stage, and these are only ideas that I have had, and of course need a lot of research into. My main question, as the title asks, is it possible to have a successful (when I say this, I mean one that pays the main costs, and not money for extras!) smallholding which doesn't require me to sell animals for meat? I am a very strict vegetarian, and even if animals have been raised organically, I couldn't bring myself to having them killed - I wouldn't intend to keep many, just enough for a small petting 'farm', and to keep and look after, as I love animals and nature - hence wanting to have a smallholding in the future. Help would be very much appreciated!
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I am a wannabee smallholder rather than an actual working one so perhaps not qualified to answer, but here goes anyway.
I am not a vegetarian, although I don't eat a lot of meat, but I have always said I couldn't kill my own animals or even take them to an abattoir. So instead I grow vegetables and fruit for myself and friends and family, I have hens and quail for eggs - just gave my friend some quail eggs and plums for finding my lost earring in a field with her metal detector - I thought I'd never see it again. :'(
If I want meat I buy it from other smallholders.
A few people on here don't even do as much as I do, in the way of growing things, and still aspire to the idea of smallholding. There are others that are aiming to make it their livelihood as far as possible.
So I don't see a problem with not having animals to grow on for meat. After all it is the mindset that matters rather than anything else.
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Even ones that sell meat on a small scale generally don't by themselves make a profit, one of the couple normally has to do some work outside the farm. So without the income from any sales? I wouldn't think so unless you write books on how to small hold etc!
Also, to use the produce from some of the animals eg milk, those animals need to give birth regularly, and often over half of the young will be male. Unless you have limitless land, how do you stop numbers growing exponentially until there's a welfare issue? There's a limited and oversupplied demand for pet sheep or cows etc.
Most smallholders keep animals as they can give them a fantastic life, and the best possible passing. No issues with the vegetarian approach but not sure the desire for milk based products is going to be easy to square with not allowing spare animals to go to someone who may send them for meat. Perhaps concentrate on non livestock animals in petting side and link up with a local smallholder who does keep stock in order to get regular inputs of manure for soil fertility, just keeping a few castrated boy sheep as pets.
Good luck with your plans!
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Hi doganjo - thank you for being the first to reply, and your post gave me a lot to think about in terms of other revenues which could be persued. :sunshine:
Hello lachlanandmarcus, thank you for your reply, which also gave me a lot to think about. Do you know if it is possible borrow male animals from other small holders for breeding? Sorry if it sounds utterly naive, just trying to explore other avenues. :sunshine:
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I do raise a couple of lambs and piglets for our own use, grow veg and fruit again own use. I cover my costs and know that my animals have been well looked after. You cannot beat growing and eating your produce which I am sure you will get a lot of pleasure from doing so. the petting animals sounds a good idea but you would need to look into health and safety rules. Pretty sure you would need insurance.
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:wave:
We loan a tup for our flock of Soay sheep but you still have to eat or sell offspring ..... unless you have limitless land to fill. I can't really see how it is avoidable once you start breeding. Depends how much land you have and how many mouths you can afford to feed I suppose. The more you keep, then the more land you need and the more they will cost to keep .... if you care for them properly. If you don't want to eat or sell then maybe just keep as lawnmowers/petting and concentrate on growing veg. etc to sell. Make jams, chutney.
I think petting farms require higher levels of insurance and health and safety regulations ..... think there have been past posts on here about it if you search.
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I think you could certainly make a go of things without having any animals at all, just concentrating on your veg boxes and orchard produce, as long as you don't expect to make any money at all. As Lachlanandmarcus says though, in order to produce milk from any milking animal, it will have to produce young (apart from the occasional maiden milking goat) and you will have to face up to what will happen to those young.
Even with hens kept purely for eggs, as ours are, you have to be able to kill a sick bird - it is unacceptable to leave a bird in pain or distress because you can't bring yourself to kill it. You don't need a cockerel though to get eggs so you wouldn't be getting lots of little chicks around, half of which would be male. Even animals for petting have to be put down sometimes and although the vet will do it, you have to request it and preferably be there.
There is a very useful, if a bit outdated book by Mandy Pullen 'valuable vegetables - growing for pleasure and profit', pub 2004 by eco-logic books www.eco-logicbooks.com (http://www.eco-logicbooks.com) . This sets out in great detail how she set up her veg box scheme, her planting plan for a continuous supply of veg throughout the year, and her costings. Since then there has been the appearance of huge commercial 'box schemes', which seem to me to be simply huge commercial enterprises which also deliver to your door, and are light years away from the original ethos.
It sounds to me as if you have to be totally realistic about just how much you can achieve yourself without turning your dream into drudgery. It's far less than you will think.
Financially, we barely break even after 18 years and without another source of income we would be homeless. If you rent a property then you have to make enough to pay the rent, plus enough to live on - hmm, not probable. If you buy with a mortgage, same thing. If you are lucky enough to buy outright you will still have rates, power, washing powder and so on to think about.
Try doing some WOOFing or HELP-X to see what reality is like to help firm up in your mind what is achievable and what is just a pipe dream. There are loads of folk on here who have smallholdings great and small, so there will be something to suit you out there.
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I think you need to think along the organic veg / plants only ........... animals cost money and the only way to pay for this is to sell excess product ie meat or offspring. Even petting farms breed off spring, some of which will have to be sold on for something. Even producing eggs to sell requires the ability to dispose of older stock eventually or you will be paying to feed lots of unproductive mouths.
If you have other income (ie a job) then it is possible to have a few 'pets' to keep lawn 'mowed'. As with any pets they will cost in terms of feed and vet bills .
Best wishes with your future plans
Fleecewife posted just before I finished this ................. totally back everything she says
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Thank you all for taking the time to reply, all your comments have been taken on board and have given me lots to think about - THANK YOU! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Another take on smallholding is not to generate income from produce but to change lifestyle and only use what you produce and thus reduce expenditure.
eg Don'y buy baked beans. Store haricot beans and your own tomatoes and make a batch of beans as needed.
We do sell a few eggs "over the gate" so to speak but otherwise we share with neighbours who give us what we don't have as fresh, store or preserved produce.
You may not eat meat but duck and chicken eggs mean that you could sell the odd bird.
Good luck!
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Well, Buddhist have cows for milk... I heard of one Jersey who had milked for six years before needing to be put back in calf! :o And they'd try to use the male offspring to work, as far as possible, I understand. You can get sexed semen from the AI services, too, to ensure female calves.
You do hear of maiden milkers in goats, as Fleecewife mentioned.
But cows, sheep and goats are herd animals so you can't keep just one on their own.
You could keep male sheep - wethers - of a breed with nice fleece for handspinning or other crafts, and sell their fleece. But it would hardly cover their annual costs, I'd have thought. And wouldn't give you any milk. Similarly alpacas.
You could keep and breed sheep and sell all the offspring except those you need for your own replacements. Someone else would kill the males in due course, but it wouldn't be you. If you got a slow-maturing breed, then even the males would have another year or so to live after you sold them. Would that work for you? If so you could do the same with the house cows, sell their calves once they're weaned.
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You could also create an income by learning a craft to a skilled level (as MAK has done). This could be carving, or lathe work, or mechanics, basket or hurdle making or computing, dressmaking or made-to-measure curtains - whatever you're good at or have an aptitude for. You would probably make more money in far less time than from selling garden produce and it would certainly reduce the amount of physical work which growing enough veggies to make a living would entail. You would then have time to grow produce for yourself, and live the dream, having fun without being weighed down by the drudgery of having to work outside in the snow and lashing rain, trying to meet the deadline of filling the required number of veg boxes with a sufficient variety of produce in time to deliver them on the appropriate day.
When I was selling produce (not enough to make a living but enough to buy seeds and equipment) I grew to resent the people who bought my produce because they could so easily have grown their own, instead of sitting in front of the TV all day while I slogged away doing the hard stuff.
After 18 years of smallholding I have learned that if it's no longer fun then you might as well not be doing it. If that does happen then be flexible - have a total rethink of your venture.
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Even ones that sell meat on a small scale generally don't by themselves make a profit, one of the couple normally has to do some work outside the farm. So without the income from any sales? I wouldn't think so unless you write books on how to small hold etc!
Are you having a laugh, lachlanandmarcus? Trust me, you won't make a fortune out of writing books.
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Even ones that sell meat on a small scale generally don't by themselves make a profit, one of the couple normally has to do some work outside the farm. So without the income from any sales? I wouldn't think so unless you write books on how to small hold etc!
Are you having a laugh, lachlanandmarcus? Trust me, you won't make a fortune out of writing books.
J. K. Rowling's school teacher told her the exact same thing! ;)
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Well, Buddhist have cows for milk... I heard of one Jersey who had milked for six years before needing to be put back in calf! :o And they'd try to use the male offspring to work, as far as possible, I understand. You can get sexed semen from the AI services, too, to ensure female calves.
You do hear of maiden milkers in goats, as Fleecewife mentioned.
But cows, sheep and goats are herd animals so you can't keep just one on their own.
You could keep male sheep - wethers - of a breed with nice fleece for handspinning or other crafts, and sell their fleece. But it would hardly cover their annual costs, I'd have thought. And wouldn't give you any milk. Similarly alpacas.
You could keep and breed sheep and sell all the offspring except those you need for your own replacements. Someone else would kill the males in due course, but it wouldn't be you. If you got a slow-maturing breed, then even the males would have another year or so to live after you sold them. Would that work for you? If so you could do the same with the house cows, sell their calves once they're weaned.
Just one provisio on the sexed semen route. It will increase the proportion of female calves but it won't be 100% so there would still be boys to deal with. But not nearly as many.
OP
If you were happy to minimise (via that route) the numbers of boys, focus on breeds that have a commercial value for the male offspring and were prepared to sell them (and for some breeds and species castrate them first, as that might be needed for the market to want them), knowing that someone else might send them for meat even tho you wouldn't, then that would probably work.
Eg I send off our boy lambs to slaughter and we eat them and so do friends. The same with old ewes who won't cope well with our fairly harsh landscape. But ewe lambs I would struggle to send for meat, so I generally sell the surplus ones. To date they have gone into breeding flocks, to people who want their wool for spinning or as grass cutters for orchards, but I am at peace with the idea that their buyers could send them for meat sooner or later, even tho I don't want to do it myself having bred them.
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Even ones that sell meat on a small scale generally don't by themselves make a profit, one of the couple normally has to do some work outside the farm. So without the income from any sales? I wouldn't think so unless you write books on how to small hold etc!
Are you having a laugh, lachlanandmarcus? Trust me, you won't make a fortune out of writing books.
J. K. Rowling's school teacher told her the exact same thing! ;)
We're talking about different kinds of books here.
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I suppose you could do working holiday's on a working farm using an old mobile home or three sort of set up , that might feed the animals and give you a bit spare dosh to use during the rest of the year .
Re the petting thing ..
Ideally you need to be on an easy access road system and with plenty of passing traffic . It's even better good if your only 10 or so miles from a big conurbation .
The site signage will be your big draw device so you need to think about who ,why, and where etc. that you will advertise and where to place legal/approved signs.
Could you have add on's , like a separate place to sell things that come off the small holding or out your kitchen?? /
If you live near to a place of interest, beauty or fishing or a sporting concern like riding stables , water skiing have you looked into a small CL caravan type set up ?
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It is possible for your animals to contribute to the fertility of your plot and even save you labour if you manage them right. Ducks will eat all the slugs for you and give you eggs - do you eat eggs? A goat can give you dairy products and fibre, chicken runs can be used as a tractor to clear the land of weed seeds, cut worms etc as well as providing an egg crop. A couple of sheep can keep you in wool and keep a small area cropped and weed free (I use ours to eat down the grass around the house where it is a pain in the neck to mow or strim) and if you are really adventurous it might be possible to use the dried pats as fuel. All of these will gve you a crop of fertiliser too.
If you are going to do it properly then you really do need some animals in your system unless you are intending to rely on petro-chemical fertilisers and they won't be around for ever, so why not learn how to do without them now ;)
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Do you need livestock at all to have a smallholding? There are arable farms, so why not an arable smallholding? :idea:
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We have :pig: :chook: :dog: :goat: :horse: :sheep: :&> and they all play a part. Chucks eggs l sell at work and
to campers as we have a CL site, l also make strawberry jam, have a polytunnel to grow them in plus veg which is fed by the manure. Goats milk we use and swop. Shetland munches down difficult places to mow, so do the sheep. The sheep wool goes to a friend who spins it. Pigs are munching through the allotment as we speak.
Ducks eat slugs etc. The dogs let us know when people arrive, and chase any predators. We both work but the long term plan is to expand and have shepherd huts and tent pitches for campers. We are near John o groats
so have tourists passing. Will have holiday let built soon, self catering. So we have a goal :thinking: its coming together slowly, but the enjoyment we get from living here is priceless ! So thats me finished babbling on :excited: no you dont NEED to kill your animals. Wish l could, they would taste good because they are spoilt :love:
Have a good day all ! l will l have 3 days off to potter, bliss :wave:
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It's just my opinion of course, but wouldn't a smallholding without livestock be more of a market garden? I reckon if you really know your stuff you could do without animals but you'd need to be composting your own waste products (euphemism) or bringing in fertilisers from outside.
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Hi
It is theoretically possible, however there would be a point where you would have to sell some of the animals, otherwise overstocking would be an issue. I would recommend keeping pedigree animals, which can be registered for breeding, and selling them as breeding animals. I hope this helps.
Thanks
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It's just my opinion of course, but wouldn't a smallholding without livestock be more of a market garden? I reckon if you really know your stuff you could do without animals but you'd need to be composting your own waste products (euphemism) or bringing in fertilisers from outside.
No, you can have birds - no need to kill them - get eggs. All of these could be sold.
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Even ones that sell meat on a small scale generally don't by themselves make a profit, one of the couple normally has to do some work outside the farm. So without the income from any sales? I wouldn't think so unless you write books on how to small hold etc!
Are you having a laugh, lachlanandmarcus? Trust me, you won't make a fortune out of writing books.
J. K. Rowling's school teacher told her the exact same thing! ;)
We're talking about different kinds of books here.
I've just discovered how much a friend of mine is paying to do a permaculture design course!!!! :o
Now that does seem to be a good little earner! :D
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Not every bit of land has to be a 'small holding', in the image of a mini farm.
You could quite happily plant some fruit trees, fruit bushes etc. Have a poly tunnel, herb spiral, and raised beds.
And then keep some chickens and ducks for eggs and as pest (insect) control.
You could quite easily have a really productive small plot of land, much like the 1000's of allotments all over the country.
You would be able to reduce not only your carbon footprint, but also your living costs (or at least improve the quality of your living), and may well be able to make a little pocket money with eggs, veg boxes etc. However, on a small scale, swopping with friends and neighbours is probably a better idea.
If you have livestock, you will always have to deal with dead stock, be it sick, old or injured animals, or a said, the surplus males that have been bred.
Maybe, if you are not keen on killing animals. . . . .. stick to the gardening.
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should be able to keep sheep for a petting zoo type thing and milk (if you bread them and want to bottle feed or at least supplement the lambs diet and then use the ewes milk for cheeses etc) and if you get the right breed the wool, all this should cover costs but it will be bloody hard work to set up and maintain
trouble with keeping any animals and being a strict vegi and not wanting to kill any animals is that if a sheep gets too badly ill or injured or too badly broken mouthed etc then it is much better and kinder to kill it and if you don't it may be of concern to animal welfare or so
you have pretty much got to decide
A) are you prepared for all the hard work?
B) could you send a sheep or other animal to slaughter if it was only better for the animal?
if the answers to A and B are a firm solid YES then you have got to ask will you breed ad sell lambs to market or will you just keep sheep until they must go and then buy in some more?
Cheers Ed
Cheers Ed
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all sounds very exciting Ed :excited:
On the petting farm side I personally wouldn't go down that road, we've had lots of people suggest we do as we have such a variety of animals, all friendly etc but friends of mine had a rare breed farm nearby that was open to the public, had insurance but after one minor mishap the premiums went through the roof and they had to close their doors!
Killing animals for whatever reason is part and parcel of going down that particular road but as others have suggested you could start with fresh produce etc?
anyway good luck with whatever you do :fc:
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I'm glad I found this thread.
It is very possible to have a 'smallholding' without killing animals, there are lots of suggestions on here as to how to go about it. Growing of course is the main one, I forked out for polytunnels and grew loads of veggies and fruit, and started a box scheme, on a small scale of course, but it brought in some money.
I also kept animals because I am an animal lover, sheep for the fleeces, goats for the milk but I never turned them into baby machines just for the sake of the milk. If I had bucks then I used them for four-legged weed control ! they fertilised the soil as well.
I had chickens and ducks for the eggs which always sell well, but always kept them in their retirement, I never 'got rid of them' just because they stopped laying, after all they had given me years of fresh eggs and deserved a happy retirement. I always took my animals to the vet if needed, and would never 'despatch' one just for convenience.
Quail are easy to keep and their eggs fetch a premium rate. :thumbsup:
Have you considered boarding ? not cats or dogs, there are enough kennels and catteries around, I used to board small furry animals, rabbits, guinea pigs, mice, rats, hamsters etc. etc. just make sure you have all the necessary insurance.
It has to be said that this kind of 'smallholding' will never make a 'living' but will bring in some extra cash and improve your own lifestyle.
Good luck :)
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We live on a smallholding... the only animal to have been killed was a cockerel that had flystrike on his bum ;) So far, the goats milk from my maiden milker is keeping us quite comfortably with the 'extra income' that pads out OH's full time job with NFU, we don't raise young regularly. The sheep are lawnmowers so that we can access our orchard to make our plum wine each year, the goats are pets/milkers for Its Baaath Time and the chickens lay eggs to go toward their feed bill whilst giving our children lots of pleasure watching eggs hatch etc. We'll deal with the cockerel issue later ;) Of course being married to a vegetarian influences how things go a tad, but we manage.
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I've been vegetarian for over 30 years and I'm a smallholder. I wouldn't say it pays a living wage, it doesn't, but my needs are far less than most folk that work in offices to pay for their food and I reckon my lifestyle is way better.
There is a difference between killing animals for meat (which I can't) and euthanasing a sick animal - I can't physically put my ponies to sleep when needed but I can and do hold them for the vet so I am with them to the end and that doesn't compromise my beliefs in the slightest. Ditto the hens, working cats and any other animal I have in my life - I can't do it myself but I find someone that can do the job properly and efficiently for me and I make the decision to let them go.
If it's just the meat side that is a no-no for you then go for animals that don't enter the UK food chain - ponies, donkeys, llama, alpaca, laying birds, caged animals/birds, tropical fish, reptiles.. plenty that males are sold as pets or for breeding rather than eaten. Castrated sheep as lawnmowers and wool providers likewise, or females as long as you're not breeding and selling youngstock, or if you're taking on a breed where more go for breeding (?a rare breed perhaps) than for meat?
And yes, orchards, fruit and veg, arable crops in small quantities. hay, fibre crops, cut flowers, plant nursery, all potential areas to explore depending on your preferences. I viewed a 15 acre holding years ago where their main crop was salad leaves, supplying bagged selections and individual types to local restaurants on a fresh daily basis. Just a polytunnel and an old caravan for weighing and bagging, a label on and a van to deliver. The rest was rented for sheep grazing I think, income for grazing can be meat or breeding or pet stock so you can decide what your tolerance is - I am happy to let grass for sheep that belong to and are killed by and eaten by others, just can't have sheep of my own and sell them for meat.