The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Bees & Beekeeping => Topic started by: Olly398 on June 10, 2013, 11:48:12 am
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This is a thread for anyone interested in how to (and probably quite likely how not to) keep bees in a TBH!
As mentioned elsewhere I have been building a top bar hive (http://brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/building-top-bar-bee-hive.html)and just finished my beginners beekeeping course at Grantham BKA. I've never had bees before.
I got a call yesterday from the wonderful Norfolk Newbies (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=517) saying there was a swarm in their tree if I wanted it!!! Er, wow, okay!!! Thanks guys! The story of getting the swam is here (http://brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/crikey-i-have-bees.html).
So now, with much less chance for preparation, but also less hassle than I had anticipated, I have a swarm in my hive. Or at least they were there when I left this morning. Thankfully it is quite cool and overcast today so hopefully they'll stay.
I plan on feeding them sugar syrup tomorrow. Lets hope they don't build cross-comb! :fc: :hshoe:
Any hints and tips appreciated! :wave:
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My bee keeping mentor built a top hive but put the exit in the wrong place. he's moved them into a national now.
Good luck with your first colony! i would like to read your swarm adventure but your link doesn't seem to work?
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Thanks for the heads up, I've fixed the link.
In the rush and excitement, nothing was as I planned. The follower board bottoms proved not to be bee-tight against the mesh and since that means the hive isn't bee-tight, I just left all the entrances open too.
Will have a look when I get back from work and see if they've started building comb.
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Have you put a little strip of foundation comb on the frames? i seem to remember my mentor doing this and moaning it was fiddly! :D
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No, I've gone with a plain unwaxed saw kerf - a groove of about 3x3 mm or 1/8th inch in old money, straight down the middle of each bar.
Update from my wife - there are a few flyers. She's reported them going in and out a bit. Lets hope they don't get too much of a taste fot it and abscond. They've been hived for about 18 hours now.
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Watching with interest - how exciting that you got a swarm so quickly!
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I have kept a Top Bar Hive for several years and I have always added wax to the sawn grove in the top bars, as this acts as a guide for the bees to build their comb.
In fact I am just off to check my TBH now, as they are thinking about swarming! Bait hive near by just in case ...
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I had grooves sawn into my top bars, then cut a sheet of printed wax into one inch deep strips and melted some old beeswax in an old roasting pan in the bottom oven of the aga then dipped one edge of the comb into the hot wax and inserted it into the groove. It starts them off straight and if the follower boards are reasonably close in it helps. As soon as they have got some straight comb started you can put any extra bars in between two straight pieces of comb and then they have to build straight - well it worked for me anyway - but try not to be too invasive with them whilst they are settling in, especially if the hive is newly constructed, as they may decide to decamp.
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Thanks for the encouragement!
So far so good - they are still there. I'll leave it for a few days for them to settle before I inspect the hive, but a cursory 5 minutes watching from a few feet away suggests there were plenty off bees returning at about 7pm. Couldn't see any pollen being carried, but I suppose with no comb yet this wouldn't be expected?
I'm going to make up some 1:1 sugar syrup and feed them through an inverter jam-jar type feeder within the hive, starting tomorrow.
:thumbsup:
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You only need to run a fine bead of molten wax on the saw cut of any sort of frame the bees will draw the com from that ... It's easy to store new top bars setup like this in the freezer away from the dreaded wax moth
You do have to feed fairly heavily when you set up like this so they can quickly draw comb and get going making honey and baby bees other wise things are slowed down quite a bit till they use natural honey for the hive energy fuel .
If the June weather gets hot and they're struggling with the June gap in flowers and nectar you'll also have to feed heavily till the weather changes... many a hive with Varroa starts the sharp decline in the June gap and is not strong enough to over winter.
It is a good idea to have a gallon or so of ready made 1 to 1 sugar syrup handy from mid april to Mid July for feeding quickly obtained swarms & for june gap feeding . Don't for get to treat the swarm with anti Varroa treatment just in case they are so lousy with it they die from all sorts of diseases that strike a weakening swarm before setting up for winter.
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Very tired but to cut a long story short:
they absconded today - only to my pear tree
I caught the swarm
Fixed a few problems with the hive
Installed a 2lb sugar syrup feeder.
Shut them in now for 24h.
Lets hope they stay.
More here (http://brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/crisis-management.html)
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Good luck second time around!
Just got round to reading about your swarm collection. Nive blog. You look a bit happy in that photo ;D . Nice size swarm - hope they stay
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You could have tried repositioning your hive so it was aligning with how they were building their comb, but leave everything alone for now, and try to resist opening the hive if you can as if they are not sure whether they are happy and there some big monster poking around it will reinforce the idea that it is not a safe place to live
If they swarmed again my guess it they have already found somewhere else they prefer :( but fingers crossed.
I wouldn't see much point in feeding them if they are not settled as it might just give them the easy energy to keep looking for other places
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Yep, I won't be looking in for a few days. I have an observation window (normally covered) and could see that they are using the feeder this morning. My rationale for feeding was that they need to draw comb and there's not much forage about. Lets see.
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Haven't disturbed the hive, but can see they've taken all the sugar, and drawn some comb (I think, hard to see covered in bees). I've opened the entrances with a queen excluder nailed over as a precaution.
Will have a proper look on the weekend.
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So long as the queen is in the hive the longer the bees walk the hive and any wild comb etc the more chance of them staying put.
When I used to make my national hives I used marine ply for the walls I fed them well but they didn't draw comb . The little beggars evacuated the hive four times onto some low level ash branches which made recover of the swarm so easy before I realized what was irritating them ........... I found the data for the marine ply , it had also been treated with an insecticide .
Once I'd put them in an old cleand & scorched hive they settled well and became good producers .
It took a couple of scorching's with the old paraffin blow lamp and a years opened up weathering to the elements before I was able to use that batch of six hive & supers .
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Just by way of an update, the bees stayed, they have built out around 15 bars of comb in my TBH. It has not been plain sailing though, because they didn't want to build the comb straight and I've had a few problems trying to sort it... however I am getting there. I took a tiny bit of honey yesterday which was really delicious.
I've learned so much and gained confidence working with the bees, so its been a good season for me. I hope to build a second TBH (haven't told the OH yet! :o ;D ) for swarm control / expansion next year. I'll change my bar profile to a deep "v" or perhaps waxed foundation strips (which I have had success with here), but definitely not a waxed saw kerf!
All my notes and photos are documented here (http://www.brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/beekeeping)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c_aHniePVRI/UgFwbbvwpqI/AAAAAAAABBo/EVRsnVbjOrw/s1600/P1060242.JPG)
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Intersting blog Olly and good pics too :thumbsup:
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Very good read ,we'll worth the efort would love that swarm I've got 8 running at the mo did have 12 so let us no haw things are going good read
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Thanks both 8) :wave:
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Looks like they are in for the long haul.
As mentioned previously a 1/8 inch wide thin bead of molten bees wax poured along the kerf9 cut in the top bar gives the bees an anchor point in the right direction
Do look up what the bee spaces should bee and cut you top bars as wide as to the width of the comb plus !/2 a bee space either side that way you'll get really even well drawn comb that easy to work , de cap or make cut comb from .
To make a molten wax pourer I found that a small 2 " dia can of tuna formed to a lip / spout like a jug was ideal.
A word of warning though .......
When you heat bees wax over an open flame it can break out into a ball of flame as it explodes the light volatile gasses given off from the flower oils in the wax.
It's best to heat the wax to melting by sitting the can in a tray of hot water and pour more in from an electric kettle if needed to complete the melt down .
Don't have any naked flames any where near you and do have some room ventilation going. Don't play with the light or electrical switches either just in case the volatile fumes are ignited by the spark in the switch .
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Thanks Clodhopper. There is a legendary family story of my Uncle's short-lived career as a French Polisher that has taught me to heat wax over a bain marie. Don't worry, he is still with us, his eyebrows gre back and I believe he has learned to laugh about it. :D
Waxed bars didn;t work for me; perhaps I did not lay the bead prominently enough. This type worked much better in my hive:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jQZw-YhypfQ/Ub-IPv2ZWkI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/iaqtoR2sGvY/s1600/P1050833.JPG)
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That's good as well , though a wee bit more expensive :D perhaps experiment and see if you can use half the width of wax srtip.
When I ran the beads of wax on my saw cuts they stood proud of the frame by about 2.5 mm . The saw cuts were made with a cheapie new " Jack" tennon saw.
Then one day I got a Dremmel for my birthday and used the little saw blade to make a 1.5 mm slot using another bar clamped to the bar as a guide
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Well there have been a few ups and downs including a re-queening and some cut'n shut national brood frames (full story here (http://www.brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/beekeeping), scroll down), but the bees are still with us and I have recently installed a bottom board and some roof insulation.
They have been taking 2:1 sugar syrup strongly and and I saw them bringing pollen into the hive a week ago (the last time it wasn't raining :D )
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9szS1qLL_iw/Ulw2WkCi91I/AAAAAAAABLQ/7DnIaq6fd5A/s1600/P1060657.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RWi56tKDm0c/Ulw2Q-kdkqI/AAAAAAAABLI/WbKDn9EYLj4/s1600/P1060656.JPG)
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I'd tend to fight shy of the newspaper in the top as an insulator for it attracts moisture and turns mouldy .
You can make a simple flat top/ crown board with several mesh covered air vents along its length , the bees will block up any mesh they don't want with propolis or wax .
In wild nests in hollow trees or in small porch roofs there is usually lots of air flow . It is usually the mould that will kill your bees not dry cold ( so long as they have supplies to bring them through the dry cold spell .
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Well things turning out for you at last iv had 70 pound of honey this time .Time to get them redey for winter lost all but 4 last winter .
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Yes I had read that they need good ventilation. Next sunny day (!) I will lift the roof and check the condition of the newsprint, might remove it.
Cheers
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You can work your bees on calm dark nights about an hour after darkness has fallen
The cooler air will cause the bees to cluster tight very few will fly so long as your not really clumsy.
Here's how
Get yourself one of the head band LED torches that has RED LED's put it switched onto red under your veil /hood go and play with the bee's .
If your worried about any bees being on your suit simply go and stand under a flood light or in the light of car headlights on main beam the few bees on you will fly to the bright light .
Many a night I've taken honey off from midnight to four in the morning or syrup fed the bees if things didn't work out in day light hours .
Occasionally with the 12 hives on the homestead apiary I'd just walk back in the bee room and start boiling a kettle for a cuppa at various un godly hours of feeding or manipulating the hives . A few bees would arc up to the fluorescent strip light and stay their save for one time when one sneaky little bugger had crawled inside my trouser leg and said hello to my ankle when I took the bee suit off . When I'd finished doing what I was doing I'd open the vent window and turn the light out come sensible daylight hours the bees on the light fitting flew back home . I rarely found a dead bee save for the one that stung me on my ankle.
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That's great advice, thanks! :-)
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So sadly, after all the hard thought and work, the colony died out a few weeks ago. I have written a detailed write up (http://www.brixtonsbounty.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/so-my-top-bar-bee-hive-died-out-during.html) of my analysis and the lessons learned.
I am not giving up with beekeeping, nor necessarily TBH's, but time for a more considered approach. watch this space!
:wave:
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What a great shame but onwards and upwards!
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These things happen, glad your not giving up. I have just read your blog. A couple of my 10p worth.
Do you have a disease officer in your association? If you do, it is worth giving them some of your bees to look at if you have not cleared them. We have a lovely chap who will whisk them under a microscope to do a 'post mortem'. This may indicate any other internal nasties for future reference.
Unless you have a uber desire to go 'conventional' hives and TBH, I would stick with one or the other. The reason being is that to swap bits, eggs, brood etc etc becomes a lot harder if you have differing hive types. I run my 'square' hives for honey and my TBH's for cut comb and wax. But I have to accept that I can not 'rob peter to pay paul' if I need to. It also becomes harder to merge colonies if its required.
Over the winter I run with the bottom boards in the TBH's, but leave a gap for debris and air to circulate. The bee's will propolis it closed if its too drafty.
I am surprised there are not more people running top bar hives in your area you can 'bounce' off. There may well be some but they are in the closet. I was for a bit with my BKA. There are some TBH forums out there with lots of tips.
Unless you have someone in your BKA selling reasonably priced nucs I would advise against buying commercial ones. They are very expensive in my opinion. Especially when starting out it can be very costly. I know some do not agree but I would wait till the swarming season and get a free one. There are gambles about disease, unknown temperament and an old queen etc. However if you make a mistake as you build your skills and knowledge there is less financial loss.
Not sure if any of that helps.
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Swarming season is here, for us at least! I did my first of the year this afternoon.
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Price at the mo is £150 for one I'm after 10 in Essex .Iv built 10 boxes on a caravan frame so i can move it on to the heather moor rs with out problem .Its the only thing doing well .
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Hi SSS, thanks for your reply, its really helpful.
Do you have a disease officer in your association? If you do, it is worth giving them some of your bees to look at if you have not cleared them. We have a lovely chap who will whisk them under a microscope to do a 'post mortem'. This may indicate any other internal nasties for future reference.
Good suggestion for next time, thanks.
Unless you have a uber desire to go 'conventional' hives and TBH, I would stick with one or the other. The reason being is that to swap bits, eggs, brood etc etc becomes a lot harder if you have differing hive types. I run my 'square' hives for honey and my TBH's for cut comb and wax. But I have to accept that I can not 'rob peter to pay paul' if I need to. It also becomes harder to merge colonies if its required.
Yep, this really hit home when we tried re-queening the TBH with national brood... very tricky. I know it will be a pain to run two types, but I think it would be pig-headed to continue down the TBH only route, with nobody to help from the BKA, limitations to my beekeeping knowledge and a first year failure... so I want to run a framed hive, so I can learn more and interact more with my BKA chums.
When I say a 'conventional' hive though, it will be a Rose OSB with no queen excluder... I built three boxes and a dozen fames yesterday.
Over the winter I run with the bottom boards in the TBH's, but leave a gap for debris and air to circulate. The bee's will propolis it closed if its too drafty.
Good idea
I am surprised there are not more people running top bar hives in your area you can 'bounce' off. There may well be some but they are in the closet. I was for a bit with my BKA. There are some TBH forums out there with lots of tips.
We are a really small BKA. I will continue to fly the flag!
Unless you have someone in your BKA selling reasonably priced nucs I would advise against buying commercial ones. They are very expensive in my opinion. Especially when starting out it can be very costly. I know some do not agree but I would wait till the swarming season and get a free one. There are gambles about disease, unknown temperament and an old queen etc. However if you make a mistake as you build your skills and knowledge there is less financial loss.
I am lucky, there are a couple of folks in the club who will help me with reasonable nucs. I will use one of these to get the Rose hive going.
I might also try to catch a swarm to re-populate the TBH. This is the easiest way (even if I wanted to throw money at it).
Not sure if any of that helps.
Yes! Thanks for that :wave: