The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: jonolinn on May 01, 2013, 12:40:56 pm
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Hello there
My Partner and I are very keen to start a smallholding at some stage in the near future.
We currently live and work in London and are aiming to develop remote working careers so that we can have a supporting income stream whilst operating a small holding / B&B. Its all very aspirational at this stage. No concrete plans, just a bit of reading, dreaming and growing veg in our London flat.
In the meantime we are wondering if it is possible to buy to a small acreage (3-5 acres) of arable land and tend to it 2-3 days a week. We are thinking up to 1 hr from London and close to a train line and upon which we might build a barn to store equipment and serve as temp accommodation when staying out there (of course we are aware of the planning implications of living in an agricultural building - its either this or camping).
We are thinking of a permaculture veg garden, reforesting a patch, orchards, bees and perhaps some grain - which might not need as much close attention as livestock.
Would love to get a sense check on this plan. It is a bit more radical that renting a farm or purchasing an established small holding - we just thought it might be a good way to test the process on a small basis.
We are reading up and planning to do some wwoofing and specific courses beforehand - both as an educational and networking exercise.
Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to reading more on this forum and eventually contributing (when we have actually learnt something and have a valuable experience to share)
Have a good one.
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Oh dear, as requested, one reality check coming up..........
See what the estate agents have to offer in the locality you want to go to. Look at the prices, see where you can afford to go to, and see what is / isn't allowed on anything you might be interested in.
From what you list you want to do, you may well need planning (sheds, animal shelters), or even change of use.
To look after animals properly you need to be able to keep an eye on them - more than once a day every few days. In that situation I don't recommend you have animals. Animals need shelter, water, winter feed. What happens if you can't get there, for example through all that snow we've just had?
What happens in an emergency when you have to drop everything and get there fast? What if you don't have what's needed to deal with the problem - you can't just nip home and fetch it. At the very least you have another unexpected trip to pay for (and need the time to do it).
Remember, you need to register to be able to keep some animals, e.g. sheep, pigs. And keep records.
Veg needs water too, so you really need to need to take into account where that is coming from.
You say you want it near a train line, are you going to bring everything you need with you to tend the site on the train? Hope you don't need a rotovator then. Even a spade is a pain in the bum to carry about. And you can be sure you will forget to take the one thing you really need.
And if it's all kept on site - well, if you aren't there to keep an eye on it all, some of it might go 'walkabout' including stock or anything you have in your shed if/when you have one. Doubtful an insurance company will cover that (but worth asking).
Then you will have to pay for it all ongoing as it doesn't end with the purchase of the land. Besides stock, seed, plants, tools, fencing, upkeep, there are travel costs, taxes, insurance, water bills, registration fees.........
Ah well, that's some of the down side.
Get your head around that lot and you are on your way!
:thumbsup:
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Welcome to TAS :wave:
Can't really add to Ohlala's post as I think she's kind of covered it all from my perspective. As you have rightly said, livestock will be a no-no as you need to be on hand to check at least twice daily on them.
I'm kind of thinking along the lines of allotment or community project maybe? that way you aren't isolated and from that you could grow onwards and upwards once you have experience, contacts and confidence?
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I moved out of London with similar aspirations. My OH still works in town so it is down to me to tend the chickens, bees and the short life span of our pigs! As well as the upkeep of the small orchard and veg patch on the couple of acres we bought next to the house. We are very lucky. Finding agricultural land is not only difficult, but expensive, particularly in green belt surrounding London. We are Guildford way with very good trains to London (45 mins) and it is the perfect mix for us. Planners really don't like sheds and buildings on agricultural land, and generally only give permission for three sided feed barns which would be next to useless to put equipment in, as I think the ONLY crime round here seems to be on agricultural land!
Anyway, I guess the gist of this is move out first! Good luck with whatever you choose! It's great to browse here first and then make an informed decision!
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have you considered trying to rent an area from a farmer.... he may already have storage and may welcome some one to use a couple of acres. Buying land in that area expect to pay 10 - 20 K + per acre (you are competing with horse paddocks) .... Could either of you work from home or elsewhere giving you a wider search area. ... would it be possible to move out of London and commute in .... that way you will be living with land... much easier to do a bit when needed. best wishes with your dreams .... lots of us on here have been in similar possitions to you.
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Also check out LAndshare online, the river cottage originated matching service.
TBH in a lot of places in the home counties the petty crime that afflicts agricultural places if they aren't attended all the time is completely out of control and consequently can be soul destroying, also tricky to get any insurance because of it. Def recommend getting somewhere within an existing farm where there are people onside.
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Please don't be discouraged! :) A lot of us started out in a city somewhere, dreaming of a different life.
However, unless you have a lot of money, it does take time.
Wwoofing is a really good idea while your waiting for the opportunity to make the move. I learnt a lot and it gave me the confidence to set up on my own.
Even if you are just growing fruit and veg, a plot an hour away from you is probably not going to work. In the summer, a lot of things need watering every day, and it just won't be practical to do that after work. (I sometimes struggled with an allotment, five minutes walk away.) Stick to Wwoofing and reading for the time being, and then make an informed decision when the opportunity arises.
Good luck, and let us know how you get on. :thumbsup:
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Hi
We moved from near Gatwick last Sept to attempt to do the same thing, we are still in the early stages and my DH is currently working overseas to help pay for things. We are converting outbuildings into holiday lets, looking at small animals and a large veg garden (if things grow we may look at selling things) to bring in enough money to live off.
After years of dreaming and planning (all very vague), we accidentially found a place we couldn't really afford to buy never mind convert and jumped in feet first, now we have to make it work, lots of sleepless nights wondering if we had bitten off more than we could chew (which of course we have), but so far wouldn't change a thing (now the sun is shining and as long as the conservation officer doesn't tell us we have to do anythng else the most expensive way he can think of when he visits tomorrow).
Sometimes you have to just decide and jump and the likelyhood of finding somewhere affordable (don't know your budget) in the South is slim, we moved North.
Good luck
K
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I think everyone has given very sound advice, I run my business from my small holding and also live here, And on bad days I struggle for the motivation to get out and do the necessary jobs.... Because once you have started everything is pretty much necessary.... watering plants, weeding, feeding animals, collecting eggs, and all I have to do is step outside the door. Getting on a train to do it would take a monumental amount of drive ! Not to mention the cost of rail travel (season ticket). But don't be put off, it is great to have a vision and to try and achieve it.
Good luck.
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What can you play around with right now, in your flat?
Have a look at Vertical Veg [size=78%]http://www.verticalveg.org.uk/ (http://www.verticalveg.org.uk/)[/size]
You can raise rabbits indoors and apparently even quail.
You can certainly practise home preservation (canning etc) and other crafts that catch your eye and may provide a future income stream.
Look for a Transitions movement and/or Guerilla Gardening too, for urban food growing projects.
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Some sound comments above.
I guess that your options to push on with the plan are improved if you can both work from home and if you can choose days when you may need to leave the house for "work". One could stay behind and the other clock up a few days in the office or visiting clients etc.
We are just 1 hour 10 minutes from London and I know some people hop on a cheap Ryanair flight for a few days work leaving the partner behind. It is possible but not something I would want to do for more than twice a week.
I am not sure that I would like to keep meat rabbits in the flat. We have 13 kittens born last week and the buck has his own cage and run. Imagine 13 adult rabbits that you will have to kill in the living room then skin, butcher and process in the kitchen. A black bin bag of blood and guts may alarm the neighbours too :-J
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No further advice to give you but just wanted to say :wave: and welcome to TAS. If you want to do it badly enough, somehow you'll manage. I wish you well.
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Thanks everyone for the warm welcome and plentiful advice.
I definitely appreciate the motif that it may be too ambitious to do on our own at this stage - given the need to look after the produce, the protection of equipment and the immediate inaccessibility.
I hadn't thought of renting a plot on an existing farm - that could be a good alternative.
We have exhausted the volume of veg growing in our backyard at the moment, have made some marmalade and will get some homebrew on the go this summer. So we appear to be on the right track. It just may take a more permanent move away from the city.
Look forward to engaging more.
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Maybe see if there are any allotments. Although most places have long waiting lists, I did manage to get one when I lived in a town, I was really surprised, so it's worth asking.
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I think Wwoofing may be your best way to go for starters. That way you learn about smallholding in real life, rather than in your dreams. It will help you to learn about the slower rate of life on a smallholding or farm, away from the bustle of city life. Even though you obviously want to live your new life, I can hear a lot of 'city lifestyle' waiting to be lost :)
When you do eventually find your new home, you will find that you need to become very adaptable - both to try your hand at a wide variety of new jobs and tasks, but also to change your plans as you go, in response to the prevailing weather conditions and the needs of your animals and crops.
Wwoofing will teach you the jargon - as will TAS.
So that's how you could learn about your chosen new life (as you already know 8) ), but you also want to get growing. As someone has said, an allotment is a great starter - far bigger than a garden, but far smaller than any smallholding, and you have everyone around you to copy from or decide you don't like their methods.
Waiting lists for allotments can be really long though, soyou might need to look for alternatives. Maybe there is someone you know who has a garden which is too big for them to work, or they are now too elderly to work it, and you could grow your veg there in return for sharing your produce. That is one of the ideas of Landshare, but when I looked at their website it was very out of date, with little on it. I think it's well worth asking around and letting people know you are looking for a large garden or piece of land to work for a couple of years. You never know.
I do agree that trying to work land which is an hour's travel away would be hard to maintain. Many moons ago when we lived on the outskirts of Edinburgh we had two allotments which were 5 miles away. Initially my husband cycled past them on his way home from work, so could do the watering and pick the dinner, but then his office moved to new premises and it suddenly became difficult to get there. I would also suppose that buying land so close to London would be a real needle in a haystack job - not to mention the disproportionate expense. You would be better saving your money for the ideal permanent home whilst learning all you can by other means.
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My advice would b look and see whats out there, we were looking to move back to yorkshire and somehow things started falling into place, a job came up which my DH got offered when he handed in his notice they offered a contract working from home for a year as didnt want to loose the skills just yet. Then we found a nice house that fell through, and this property came up which was out of our range but with problems, we thought no way would we get a mortgage, house having problems (some internal damp walls poss woodworm an enforcement notice with deadline and no idea what worked) plus both self employed but neither with a years worth of accounts, but they accepted a much reduced offer ( already substantially reduced due to enforcement notice), got mortgage and we were in in 6 weeks, now we are setting it for the future.
It felt as if it was meant to be and my point is if you dont start the outcome is guaranteed,
We have now cleared the enforcement, disovered that the heating and electrics are fine and have our first animals, some sheep.
Good luck, and start dreaming/ looking who knows.
K
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totally back Orinoco .... ours kind of took on a life of its own as soon as we started looking...... and still is .... yesterday my OH walked into a coffee shop in Oxfordhire where he met someone he knew who sused to sell farm machinery... asked if he knew of anyone who sold secondhand tractors ... one of his mates piped up I have trailer for sale ... have the card here to go in shop window this afternoon .... well ad never went in and trailer took trip to Wales!!