The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: JMB on April 07, 2013, 12:12:34 pm
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Hello.
Just picking up from another post.
I've had several reports on TAS and from other farmers about problems with Combinex.
We did ours with this in January and still ended up with 2 with fluke.
The others are fine.
I'm just checking - we' ve used Fasimec Duo and been fine. But surely it's not Combinex itself but the active ingredient - triclabendazole - that's seemingly not working? In which case any triclabendazole product would be the same?
Is that right?
It's strange because we used Mebadown last year so it's not like we've repeatedly dosed with the same stuff.
Thank you
Joanne xxxxc
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I have heard that there is another problem with triclabendazole when used on severely affected sheep, in that it needs the liver to metabolise it for it to work effectively and if the liver is badly damaged it won't be functioning properly and can't metabolise it and so the worst affected sheep therefore wont be getting effective fluke treatment from it. Not sure if this is right but it is what I have read on another forum so it complicates the picture with regard to resistance.
If a sheep is showing bottle jaw then it is badly affected by fluke and its liver wont be functioning well and it would probably be better to try another product.
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Hi
You're right that it would be the triclabendazole itself that wouldn't be working and any triclabendazole product would be the same. There's a couple of things that could cause this.
1) was it live fluke in the animals or was it just the report of fluke on the kill sheet? Abbatoirs don't always differentiate between live fluke and fluke damage, you could have had 2 badly damaged livers.
2) Was it very young fluke or old fluke? None of the fluke drugs are long acting. That is they will kill what is in your animal when you give the dose. But as soon as you turn the animals out they can get re-infected. If it was young fluke that were found, or if the sheep died of acute fluke then that would be an explanation.
3) Did you dose right? If you dosed to the heaviest, or what you thought were the heaviest you could have underdosed on some, and thus not given an effective dose. Also there can be spillages and spitting.
4) Was it a new pack of product or an old one? And where was it stored? Drugs stored in sheds that freeze and thaw repeatedly may not be as effective
5) Were these all homebred sheep or were some bought in, could some have come from an area with fluke that are resistant to triclabendazole and some come from and area with fluke that are susceptable
6) Do you have the start of resistance? It would be well worth your while to do a FEC before and after your next batch of treatments to see if the triclabendazole is working ok.
I've heard the thing about triclabendazole not working well in badly damaged livers several times, but not come across anything in the literature to back it up.
Hope that helps.
Dans
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I've noticed a few posts where people are surprised to have fluke because they fluked a couple of months ago...
In fluke-affected areas, the sheep need to be dosed every 6-8 weeks in order to maintain the protection. Check the meds you are actually using - some kill only adults, some don't kill eggs, very few kill very immature stages... so then you can work out your repeat dose dates.
Dans - it would be super-helpful, if possible, to have a simple description of the ages and stages, and the potential damage to the host at each stage? :eyelashes:
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Excellent page here, would highly recommend that people read it.
http://www.scops.org.uk/endoparasites-liver-fluke.html (http://www.scops.org.uk/endoparasites-liver-fluke.html)
If you've not got the time to read it all scan through to the two tables. Information on what drugs to treat when.
The other thing to bear in mind is that your animals will keep putting eggs out into pasture even after you've killed the adult fluke (the eggs store in the gall bladder for up to three weeks) so you really really need to do before and after Faecal Egg Counts so you can see a reduction if the medicine has worked.
A quick low down:
Lots of young fluke ingested at once munch through the liver can cause sudden death or death in 2 weeks. This is acute and subacute fluke,
Infection at a low level over a long period of time gives chronic fluke, affects weight gain, fertility, wool yield and anaemia.
Triclabendazole drugs target the very young fluke so is good for use against acute and subacute fluke.
Closantel based drugs target older fluke than triclabendazole but still young. Treating with this means you will miss very young fluke and they can still cause actute or sub acute fluke or chronic fluke depending on the number.
Other drugs just target adults. Fine to use at times of year when you should only have adult fluke.
All drugs only act at the time of treatment so as soon as you turn out they can be re-infected.
Also depending on the weather and how the seasons have been, and your ground you may get fluke at times you're not expecting.
Hope that helps. My brain is a bit fuzzy at the moment so the website may be clearer.
Dans
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Thanks very much Dans :thumbsup:
I will study that SCOPS stuff and no doubt be back with questions!
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No problem, SCOPs great for all sheep parasites.
Dans
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Thank you for the link. It was very helpful.
It is desperate times here, second sheep died today of fluke.
Going to do another faecal test tomorrow.
The problem is that information is quite confusing. The vet seems to think resistance is rarer than reported, and not to refluke, yet anecdotally we are being told by local people not to use certain things and to fluke every few weeks.
We go from optimistic, to a state of panic.
Perhaps it is just a bad year. Fingers crossed xxxxxxx
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It is a very bad year. And the resistance is likely rarer than reported. Most due to underdosing.
Did you do a faecal egg count before treatment? Have you opened up the sheep that died? See if it is young or old fluke causing the problem?
Hope you can get it sorted.
Dans