The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Fruit => Topic started by: whitby_sam on March 05, 2008, 11:52:58 pm
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In this climate?
Really?
Outdoors?
Well I'm gonna give it a try... Wish me luck
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weve got a big grape growing along the fence in our back garden down here in kent and its doing fine! it broke through the fence into the neighbours garden last year! it did have grapes on it as well until we forgot and let the chickens out for a wander! they had a great time lol!
Good luck with yours!
:)
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we put our vine outside last year and it flourished (no grapes yet though) goodluck
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Well I've got 5, a combination of red and white, some eaters and some for wine ;D along with a lemon bush and an orange bush. I've given them a sheltered yet bright south-facing spot against the stable so keeping my fingers crossed. If it all goes to pot then it just gives me an incentive to invest in a new greenhouse...
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well i have a grape bush (up here in sunny (not) scotland)
linz
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I have never been on the fruit section so here we go for what it is worth. I am not a gardener but have inherited grape vines at two of the houses I have lived in and bought one for the third. In my limited knowlegde, I think you can buy some more hardy that others so they are out there to suit most situations.
The one we bought from a young plant, we were told to cut off all of the fruit for the first three years so that all the energy went into growing rather than fruit production. We were also told to cut it back every year two thirds back into the the new growth. It actually worked and on its forth year we had amazing fruit to eat. We still had to be selective of the amount of fruit we allowed to grow on it - that I cannot remember the math - just keeping one bunch per section I think or something like that.
We bought that one to give us natural shade in our outdoor veranda. For the first year we completely covered the roof inside with beach mats which was a cheap option and had a natural look and kept the area cool. For the next two years with new growth we removed a mat or two and by year four the vine had completely covered the roof space and looked glorious. From then on it just needed pruning and thinning and we loved it. We had to leave it behind to move here in year six and inherited a really old established vine which grows on the wall of the house. Unfortunately it is in such a position that it is impossible to get to, so we just look at it and that is all. Perhaps we will indulge ourselves when we move again and I will get John to build me a pergolia or another veranda type construction to house another one.
Judging by the look on his face, perhaps not!
Kate
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Kate, you really must stop giving John all these jobs.
Anyway he might come round this time, especially if the grapes were to be made into wine after!!!!!
Carole
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just got another grape bush and NOW have a completed fence to grow things on lol
so am gona start putting up wires etc for climbers and it has cut down the wind A LOT
Linz
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I bought "Hardy" vines but it appears the frost got them :(
I'm due a new greenhouse for my birthday so will have another bash. There's absolutely no green left, just what looks like a dead twig. Is there any hope?
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Arh are they just sleeping ?
I thought i had lost mine to frost and in the garden lol
but found it the other day and picked it up and showed hubby and said ' Oh it dead' and then just to double check you get a pieces of masking tape and take a figure nail (attacked to figure hopefully) and scrap a little bit of the bark away if it is green it's alive but if it is dead wood colour than it is dead . The masking tape it just to cover up the scratch just in case you have taken to much bark away just take a small pieces and place it around the scratched area :).
This does work i almost chopped a olive tree in half once quickly taped it back up and it is still going after 2/3 years :)
Linz
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Looks like some new shoots developing so all is not lost :)
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we had quite a lot of grapes on a vine on a south facing wall 2 years ago, but they never ripened. Nothing at all last year. I just bought a red variety...My friend has them in a greenhouse and they were superb! :&>
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just got another grape bush and NOW have a completed fence to grow things on lol
so am gona start putting up wires etc for climbers and it has cut down the wind A LOT
Linz
where did you get it from? I mighty have a go at grapes.
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it was lidls and it was a black soyano (spelling) long time ago,
it is still alive check yesterday and it is green under the 'bark'
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Is it too late to prune them now??? The book says November / December but I would love to hear from your experience...:&>
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Hi Sam & everyone,
I've been keen on grapes since I grew vines in my garden and greenhouse in Hampshire as a child. I regularly harvested a few hundredweight of grapes, mostly white/green, and made wine as well as drinking copious amounts of grape juice. I was given the first vine, and bought two more; both German. One was a Muller-Thurgau, the other a Riesling Sylvaner. They thrived. That was ages ago, and after I left home (to get a life and clock up a few decades), the vines grew, triffid-like, and demolished the greenhouse that supported them. Odd's life!
Later, around 20 years ago, I bought a Muller-Thurgau and Riesling Sylvaner, rather out of sentiment, to plant in my Warwickshire garden. They survived, and some years they looked respendent, but never produced much fruit. The presence of a cement works nearby, spewing out caustic, alkaline white dust, surely didn't help.
Another life-change later, I'm in Milton Keynes, where my new partner and I have several allotments. I mentioned back last summer (Coffee Lounge) that we were travelling through western Europe and aimed to bring back some vines. We did. We bought six vines in Germany, all 3 years old or more, and very sound and strong. We also sweet-talked some vine-farmers to obtain a few off-cuts from which to make cuttings. Chatting them up and asking how they prune them, and what they did with the trimmings, while offering them a cup of tea (or something stronger) from the camper-van worked a treat, and we came back with a dozen or so 'whips' of three feet or so. It was a bit of a 'suck it and see' experiment. I've never before tried making cuttings from wood that's been cut a week or more and left stood in a plastic bottle of water till we got home. But we've had amazing success. Of the 22 cuttings we ended up with, 19 have taken, and are shooting and developing nicely. Eight are German Riesling (white), 4 are German Gewurtztraminer (White), and 7 are Italian Montepulciano (Red).
Back home, in October, and just after those cuttings were planted, we were offered the 'debris' from a huge vine that had taken over a relative's garden in Milton Keynes. I don't know the variety, but they are small red grapes, and make good wine and juice, though are less good for the table, being small, and with pips. Clearly, they are likely to do well in the same neighbourhood, latitude, etc. Never one to look a gift horse in the mouth, I collected a transit van full of the 'debris', and planted about 450 cuttings from it. With a few other things cropping up just then, I had to stop planting for a couple of weeks, by which time it was too late to salvage any more. I had prepared about another 120, stood up in a couple of buckets, and never got round to planting or disposing of them, with a lot of other pressing things to do. Today I found about 130 of the 450 have budded, and look promising. I also discovered over 100 of the cut stems stood in the buckets have swelling buds and have begun root formation. The books all say that can't happen! And intriguingly, some of the 'bucket' cuttings were old, knarled wood, thicker than my thumb, and now showing a cluster of buds and active roots. Obviously, I need to transplant them into compost, but I'm fascinated by this apparent extra 'gift'!
Finally, I was also offered just a few cut stems from another prolific red grape just a few doors away from home. Again, it should be fine in this area. These are large, and suitable for table, juicing or wine-making. I planted nearly 50 cuttings and have over 40 showing growth. So I'm quite pleased with the return.
All the cuttings won't be ready to plant out this year, but the six from Germany, and another 12 we already had from British Garden Centres, are. So two allotment plots are to become a vineyard. We've checked out and obtained permission, so no administrator comes along when we are in full production and tells us we can't do that. But the land hasn't been worked for years and has docks, nettles, couch-grass and other annual weeds in abundance. So it's hard work digging. So far we've planted the first fifteen vines; the largest, and have begun the next swathe of digging. But it is very satisfying to see the embryonic vineyard becoming reality, after a couple of years of aspirations. Besides the many cuttings, we chose the varieties we're growing to see what grows best in our soil and location. We accept they won't all excel, and some may perish, but it will be interesting to see what does well. The varieties are (r=Red, w=White):
Artemis (2)(w), Baco 1 (r), Bianca (w), Boscoop Glory (r), Brant (r), Chardonnay (2)(w), Gewurtztraminer (w), Lakemont (w) New York (w), Orion (w), Phoenix (w) Pinot Blanc (w), Pinot Noir (2)(r), Regent (r), Semillon (w).
I'll let you know how they progress. We also acquired many pips from several varieties of grapes while travelling. In the past, when I had had poor results with cuttings, I found it easy to grow vines from pips. I thought the pips would be a reliable back-up if the cuttings failed. But curiously, not one of the hundreds of pips has germinated. It's no bother, with successful cuttings (that are therefore true-to-type), but it is a puzzle.
Friends at the allotments have been anything from scathing to intrigued, but many are keen to try a glass of 'Chateau Milton Keynes' when it comes...! They seem unconvinced we really do like the grape juice unfermented, too....
I know this is probably 'Old Hat' to our French cousins, but for us Brits it's an interesting experiment, and hopefully a productive one.
Once the new vines are established, I'll be taking cuttings from those, to add to the ones I planted already. If anyone's interested in trying something similar in your neck of the woods, let me know.
Sunny John & Linda
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just got another grape bush and NOW have a completed fence to grow things on lol
so am gona start putting up wires etc for climbers and it has cut down the wind A LOT
Linz
where did you get it from? I mighty have a go at grapes.
focus has some in but didn't notice the price of them
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sunnyjohn you startting a wine yard?
lol
your very lucky in milton keynes the weather is mostly nice for you lol
Linz
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sunnyjohn you startting a wine yard?
lol
your very lucky in milton keynes the weather is mostly nice for you lol
Linz
Planning to! Just counted the cuttings that are showing leaves, and it's almost 200 in all, including the local ones. I don't know their variety, but they taste good, are prolific fruiters, and evidently like the local climate. And the imports from Europe are doing better than I'd hoped. So we've enough for several rows of vines, even if it takes 3-5 years to get fruit off the cuttings. Oh, and as of today, some of the pips are growing - the ones' I'd more or less given up on.
I'm partial to vino, and have made it before from my own grapes - now all drunk (or was that me?!) - but mostly Linda and I want to harvest the juice, which seems to do us good as well as taste lovely. And it's got to be better than shop-bought squash or processed fruit juice from heaven-knows-where! Did I mention we've also got a few small citrus trees? Well, you never know, in our changing climate...!
Better wash me feet before treading the grapes, perhaps!
Sunnyjohn
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You do tell fascinating and interesting stories, John - I read right through both posts. Best of luck to you and Linda with your vineyard. I doubt we'd have the same success in Central Scotland although it's a lot warmer here than my last home.
Annie
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My sister has bought Dan two vines for his birthday (and a quince) so we'll soon find out how they do!
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Well if they can grow grapes in wales (successfull wineyard) on a side of a mountain their is hope for central scotland :)
the wineyard is somewhere in a Brecon i belive
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I bought 3 vines about 4 years ago from Reads Nursery, they specialise in grapes and citrus fruit. I planted 1 in our greenhouse and 2 outdoors. The ones outdoors haven't produced any fruit but the greenhouse ones has. Last year we got about 30 bunches.
Reads have a website which gives some info on grapes, and they have a large selection far sale.
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http://www.readsnursery.co.uk/acatalog/Grapevines.html
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Hi I have a grape vine thats 12 years old. Actually dug it up and bought it to Ireland with me - not sure you are supposed to. They never shoot until end April/May as the temperature here is not quite Mediterranean. Pruning is essential - you need to keep one main stem and after approx 2 years let another grow. It seems harsh, but cut them right back with just the one long stem. I get about 20 carrier bags of grapes a year. When you get the small grapes appearing only allow two bunches per stem and then remove the smaller grapes to encourage the remainder to get bigger. Red seem to be hardier than white which is a shame. I'm not an expert, but this has always worked for me
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Is it too late, now, Lizmar??? The book says Winter...:&>
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Well I would still cut a few straggly branches off to ensure the main stem is strong. I have to say I never follow books. As long as there is no frost and you leave the good shoots, go for it. It may cause the fruit to be late, but I find that my grapes taste better the longer I leave them, often not picking half of them until beginning of October.
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We have 2 grape vines growing along the back garden wall, they have been there for years(at least 15/20).
we get grapes most years but only very small ones but very sweet.
One year we left them and in the autumn found dozens of butterflies feeding off rotting grapes.I bet they had a hangover.
Never really pruned them, maybe thats why we only get tiny grapes. ;D
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sunnyjohn you startting a wine yard?
lol
your very lucky in milton keynes the weather is mostly nice for you lol
Linz
Planning to! Just counted the cuttings that are showing leaves, and it's almost 200 in all, including the local ones. I don't know their variety, but they taste good, are prolific fruiters, and evidently like the local climate. And the imports from Europe are doing better than I'd hoped. So we've enough for several rows of vines, even if it takes 3-5 years to get fruit off the cuttings. Oh, and as of today, some of the pips are growing - the ones' I'd more or less given up on.
I'm partial to vino, and have made it before from my own grapes - now all drunk (or was that me?!) - but mostly Linda and I want to harvest the juice, which seems to do us good as well as taste lovely. And it's got to be better than shop-bought squash or processed fruit juice from heaven-knows-where! Did I mention we've also got a few small citrus trees? Well, you never know, in our changing climate...!
Better wash me feet before treading the grapes, perhaps!
Sunnyjohn
Thought it was about time for an update.
As others have found, and I have found before, grape vines seem slow off the mark, so it seems lots of things are growing before there's much showing on the vines. But one they get going they're like an avalanche. The established vines that we planted are now about double the size they were, with lots of new growth, side shoots, leaves, and embryonic fruit bunches. These look like miniature bunches of grapes but are actually flower buds. The flowers are mostly green and almost insignificant, but insects find them anyway! So far the 20-or-so vines have around 120 potential bunches, but it's still early; there could be many more. Or not: it depends on the weather, soil chemistry and sod's law! And flowers don't guarantee grapes for similar technical reasons; especially sod's law! I'm hoping for lots of growth ths year, to give a full, strong plant for later years' fruiting.
Still around 200 of the cuttings we planted have taken, and the seeds, that mysteriously didn't seem to grow, belatedly started sprouting. Over 150 showed and produced the first pair of leaves, but quite a few failed. But there are still about 100 that are vigourous and strong, now up to 3 or 4 pairs of leaves, and looking hopeful. According to the experts, seeds 'don't breed true to type', being sexually reproduced from different plants (unlike cuttings that are true-to-type, being clones of the original). But when you have a carefully chosen variety, in tens of thousands covering an area, the chances are that the majority of the ferilised seeds that succeed will be very close genetically to the majority of the parents, and if the parents were cuttings (which is most likely), they will be the same variety anyway. So variation is pretty unlikely. Anyway, what's wrong with a bit of variation in this 'diversity conscious' society of ours...?
The really odd thing to relate was an accidental extra. I lovingly prepared several hundred cuttings from the yards of off-cuts I'd been given, and planted about 450 sticks. It seemed more.... But life got in the way and family business and a spell of dire weather prevented me getting to the allotment to plant the rest. Finding such a high strike rate - I was aiming for 10-20%, so 50% was good - I forgot about the remainder, cut and ready to plant, but left in buckets behind the shed - mainly to stop them blowing over! A few weeks later I noticed the aforementioned dire weather had put rain water in the buckets and a few of the un-planted cuttings had buds swelling. So I left them out of curiosity. I did get round to counting them, roughly, and estimate about 350 stems stood in buckets of rainwater. And by now I have about 340 showing leaves, new stems, more buds swelling, embryonic bunches of fruit, and swellings on the stem where roots will form. According to the experts, it just doesn't happen like that. And I may just be lucky with a fecund variety, but I'm playing this one out to see what happens! Being intrinsically 'frugal', and into recycling and scavenging, I don't look a gift-horse in the mouth! ::)
We planned to plant the vines in neat rows, trained to wires stretched between poles, and with neat mown grass in the lines between. Huh! The prolific weeds endemic on our two allotment plots won't take 'go' for an answer, and despite repeated digging, Roundup, strimming and burning, they keep coming back with a vengeance. It's almost a full-time task containing them. So much for a low-maintenance crop approach! We've found elsewhere that mulching, old carpet, and weed suppressant membrane just hold the weeds dormant until they can break through, and there is no alternative to letting them grow and digging the b***ers out and, at all costs, stopping them seeding again. So it looks as if there's another few years of digging, killing, digging again, and eradicating the weeds the hard way. It's back-breaking and time-consuming. Even the area we burned off, and the patch we treated with Sodium Chlorate, which looked inert for a while, are back to growing and, guess what they grow? Yep, the more persistent weeds like dock, thistles and stinging nettles! Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated! Sadly, the old adage, "one year's weeds give seven years' seeds" seems horribly true. >:(
Over 90% of the cuttings we brought back from Europe have also taken. I can't disturb them yet; they must over-winter before I can re-pot them or plant them out, but that, too, is a bonus; Again, I was hoping for just one of each variety, or more if I was lucky. Having six or ten of each variety is another welcome success. And finally, a few cuttings I took last year, from another vine I managed to grab some prunings from, I'd given up for dead, but several of those have also pulled through, so I have half a dozen more unexpected ones, now in their second year.
Linda has grandchildren, and one of them, 5-year old Ellie, is quite keen on gardening. No, seriously. She plays with worms, frogs and things, grows plants and seeds, and digs. Alan Sugar, eat your heart out; she's our 'Apprentice'! She was doing a project at school where they were asked to take in a plant and tell the others about it. She was the only one to wander in with a grape vine, and the school has adopted it, and is hoping for grapes! That feels good. It makes a change from Dora Dora, High School Musical, and all the other preoccupations of her peer-group!
So, all in all, there's a LOT of work to do, but it's looking promising. Milton Keynes Wine may yet make the grade....
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well i have a grape bush (up here in sunny (not) scotland)
linz
Have you harvested any? Would love a Merlot Grape Vine outside, love making wine - but I have no success with fruit - only wild stuff, and Blackcurrants and strawberries - and anyone can do that - I've never heard of anyone who can't grow strawberries ::)
I planted a grape in my Greenhouse and it died, so it would have no chance outside as it never stops raining here.
Julie
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Hi sunnyjohn
with regards to your weeds reappearing problem, if you have a patch of land you can leave idle for a month or two you could try sterilising the soil with a 10% solution of formaldehyde. Mix it in a watering can with a rose attachement and pour it onto the affected soil at a rate of 1 gallon to a square yard or so. Soak the top soil then cover with plastic for 10 days. after ten days lift the plastic and dig over the soil and replace the plastic for a further 10 days then lift the plastic and turn the soil over again. you should then have sterile soil ready to start again. - warning this kills everything, both beneficial and pest including worms. I dont use this method except as a complete clearance and a last resort